The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Gym Leader Devil]

Anyway, I think it is only proper that we look at all avenues and show everyone we don't use a single line to prove Cloti.

This has never really been a problem, but its good to point out anyway. A number of people like to pretend the entirety of our case is derived from one line (and that they can dispute said line). So if anyone wonders why Danseru points this out, or why Ryu often lists off references to many many lines, that's why Keep that up.

Tres please translate the Promise in the well Cloti scenes ALL OF DEM CLOTI ASDFGHJKL

If I know Tres, so long as real life and family concerns allow for it, he'll keep translating until he runs out of stuff. Because he's awesome like that.

 

[I Am Not Me]

It was mentioned to me in private that someone is using my translation to argue that the quote from Tifa's Memorial Words is about she and Cloud wanting to be business partners. Now, as laughable as the notion is that they would be discussing such a thing on the eve of cosmic conflagration, I also want to remind everyone that hito already corrected me on the "partnership" thing.

Night before the final battle:

Cloud
Yeah... At that time I heard you calling me.
You were calling me back from the stream of consciousness in the Lifestream.
After all, I promised. That if anything were to ever happen to you, I would come to help. If you wanted to open up a business for example......

Tifa
Cloud...? Do you think the stars can hear us?
Do you think they see how hard we're fighting for them?

Cloud
I dunno... But...
Whether they are or not, we still have to do what we can. And believe in ourselves...
I'll find the answer someday. Right, Tifa?
That's what I learned from you when I was in the Lifestream.

Tifa
Yeah...... that's right...

Cloud
Hey Tifa...... I...... There are a lot of things I wanted to talk to you about.
But now that we're together like this, I don't know what I really wanted to say...
I guess nothing's changed at all... Kind of makes you want to laugh...

Tifa
Cloud... Words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking...

Cloud
............
You're right. Let me just make a slideshow of my business proposal.

Cloud and Tifa spend the night on the ground beneath the airship, Tifa leaning against Cloud.

Cloud
............It's almost dawn...

Tifa
H, huh...?

Cloud
Sorry. Did I wake you...? It's almost dawn, Tifa.

Tifa
Umm... G, good morning... Cloud.
Give me a little longer... Just a little bit longer...
She leans back against him.
This day will never come again... So let me have this moment...

Cloud
Yeah... okay.
This is probably the last time we'll have together......
...............................
.................................
...so about that business partnership we were talking about last night...


CANON.

script sauce: http://www.yinza.com/Fandom/Script.html

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I love you Mei. Still laughing, there are literally tears.

 

[Dashell]

Tifa
Cloud... Words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking...

Cloud
............
You're right. Let me just make a slideshow of my business proposal.

Seems legit

It was mentioned to me in private that someone is using my translation to argue that the quote from Tifa's Memorial Words is about she and Cloud wanting to be business partners

You know deny Cloti all you want, but... come on... Tifa and Cloud did not spend what they thought would be their last night on earth together and decide to become business partners. That doesn't even make sense... it's your last night on earth, why would you even be thinking that?

Anyways the partner thing was wrong anyway... although I'm being asked about Cloud's page (which I found out by accidentally clicking a link for a post that I'd normally have on ignore)... what are Cloud's memorial lines? I seem to remember the unfreezing her smile line being in there, right? And the "I hope you get to meet the real Cloud" line to Tifa, right?

 

[Danseru-kun]

My gosh Mei I'll post it in tumblr I'll credit you!


BTW if you don't want to, just tell me I'll delete it ^^,

 

[Dashell]

I also hear that "koui"/"favors" is being argued to mean something other than romantic interest in the line that says Cloud and Tifa have held such an emotion for one another for many years. And this even though it was the same word used on the precious relation charts to say Cecil & Rosa had romantic interest in one another; likewise for Celes & Locke; ditto that for Squall and Rinoa; and even used on VII's charts in reference to Jessie, Aerith and Tifa's interests in Cloud.

I forgot to note that this same word has been used to describe Aerith's feelings for Cloud and Tifa's feelings for Cloud OUTSIDE the relationship charts.

クラウドに好意を抱き、あっという間に親しい仲に。
She is fond of Cloud, and in no time at all they became close.

And that lifestream quote I bring up about with the "Had been holding feelings..." bit? Yeah it used 好意, I just chose to translate it as feelings since ... I don't remember who but someone told me that would work better.

クラウドが前からティファに好意を抱いていたのに対し、 ティファのほうはクラウドに関心がなく、 約束を交わした時点から彼をしはじめる。 周囲の仲良しがつぎつぎと自分のそばから去ってしまった寂しさもあっただろうが、それ以上に、 自分のヒーローになってくれると約束してくれたことが大きかったのだろう。

ちなみにティファは、 クラウドか自分に好意を抱いていたということに、 ライフストリームで告げられるまでまったく気づいていなかった。呼び出されてふたりきりになっているのに、結鈍感？

To deny this word means anything but romantic feelings is to deny that both Tifa AND Aerith have romantic feelings for Cloud... and then we have no LTD


wait ... maybe we SHOULD deny

 

[Danseru-kun]

Anyways the partner thing was wrong anyway... although I'm being asked about Cloud's page (which I found out by accidentally clicking a link for a post that I'd normally have on ignore)... what are Cloud's memorial lines? I seem to remember the unfreezing her smile line being in there, right? And the "I hope you get to meet the real Cloud" line to Tifa, right?

Copy pasting this from my old post:

• “Not interested”
• “I’ve never lived up to the real Cloud… Tifa, I hope one day you’ll meet the real Cloud” in the Northern Crater in Disc 2
• “My fingers are tingling. My mouth is dry. My eyes are burning!” line when SPOILERS Aerith died in the Forgotten Capital
• “Mom… Tifa… give them back!” in the Nibelheim disaster.
• (Probably, but not sure) ““I’m Cloud, the master of my own illusionary world. But I can’t remain trapped in an illusion any more. I’m going to live my life without pretending.” because the caption says it’s his words in the Highwind.
• “Everyone, let’s go” which is “Let’s mosey” in English

Cloud’s Memorial Scenes are the following:

• Wall Market crossdressing,
• His exhibition at the Rufus parade in Junon,
• Visiting Zack’s parents in Gongaga
• Realizing that Zack was “in his place” during the real version of the Nibelheim incident revealed by Seph in the Northern Crater
• Him stabbing Sephiroth in Nibelheim revealed in the Lifestream Sequence
• Another from the Lifestream Sequence where he discovered his true self with Tifa
• (Not sure what but the screecap is the villa in Costa del Sol)
• Taking over the submarine in Junon
• Cloud defeating Sephiroth in their one-one-one duel in the final battle

Dunno these have questionable accuracy because of my elementary Japanese and low res scans.

 

[Strangelove]

business partners

wow

business partners in a game that was made before any of this post-original game stuff was conceived, on the eve of the end of the world

just wow

I also hear that "koui"/"favors" is being argued to mean something other than romantic interest in the line that says Cloud and Tifa have held such an emotion for one another for many years. And this even though it was the same word used on the precious relation charts to say Cecil & Rosa had romantic interest in one another; likewise for Celes & Locke; ditto that for Squall and Rinoa; and even used on VII's charts in reference to Jessie, Aerith and Tifa's interests in Cloud.

Taken from definition at Yahoo (大辞&#27849:

その人にいだく親しみや好ましく思う気持ち。愛情の婉曲的な表現としても用いられる。
The feelings of friendship and affection. Also used as an euphemism for love.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Henceforth, hito shall be known as my numbah one business partner. Desu.

Let's go file some paperwork, darling. Also, I could use some help jamming up the printer.

 

[Strangelove]

Yeah, let's have a meeting in my office.

see what i did there

i'm meeting you

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Cloud and Aerith became close?

Sorry, sorry had to

Anyway Danseru's information/list about Cloud's page looks about right more or less

Spoiler

though I've heard something about Aerith's smile is also mentioned in Cloud's Highwind line and there's also a little blurb which mentions both Tifa and Aerith - thought this might be they both favour him again bit/line?

http://i47.tinypic.com/2nvs7xe.jpg

http://i50.tinypic.com/2953c6v.jpg

Personally I'm also hoping these two pages get translated eventually -


http://i.imgur.com/dfVGk.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/iKqNW.jpg


not just because Cloud/Aerith scenes but also because Cloud, Sephiroth, planet/materia stuffs which also interests me/people find interesting but I appreciate these things take time, work, effort and also the good will and nature of beleaguered translators who continue to work despite everything - and they don't have to do it, and I know it'll get done in time if it's worthwhile, I mean there's an entire book there with loads of stuff, for FFVIII, FFIX as well and people might be working on other stuffs for the front page as well so there's other stuffs going on/people are busy/interested in so yeah patience is a virtue I mean Hawkeye even said there was stuff he was still working on so yeah Other people are working on stuffs as well and I appreciate it takes time to do it right

 

[Ryushikaze]

Oi, no Hanky Panky unless you file the appropriate forms to incorporate as a business!

In triplicate.

Oh, and they have to be done in a mix of swahili and ancient egyptian

 

[Elisa Maza]

... get a room, you horny pricks.







Also, I have noticed a most heinous crime from SE. They mention Tifa's date. They mention Aerith's date. They mention Barret's date (CANON).

WHERE IS YUFFIE'S DATE????

This is most inexcusable. I demand an explanation. Immediately.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yuffie'a date is among her Memorial Scenes too.

 

[Elisa Maza]

*lowers mace*

Good.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

You know the funny part of this whole business partners thing? I mean, aside from Tres and hito being Tres and hito. We actually DID see Cloud and Tifa open a business together. A bar, which Tifa ran while Cloud did supply runs and shit. Until the bar got established and Cloud decided he'd rather run a delivery service and kill monsters on his way from here to there, that is. And it had absolutely nothing to do with the Highwind scene! So, according to these folks we've been talking about... Cloud and Tifa decided to be business partners twice?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Anyway Danseru's information/list about Cloud's page looks about right more or less

Spoiler

though I've heard something about Aerith's smile is also mentioned in Cloud's Highwind line and there's also a little blurb which mentions both Tifa and Aerith - thought this might be they both favour him again bit/line?

http://i47.tinypic.com/2nvs7xe.jpg

http://i50.tinypic.com/2953c6v.jpg

That paragraph that mentions both women is just the general introduction to Cloud at the beginning of his profile. This is the line that includes them: "At the request of his childhood friend, Tifa, he cooperates with the anti-Shin-Ra organization AVALANCHE; then meets Aerith, a maiden of the Ancients; and joins a battle to save the Planet."

幼なじみのティファの頼みで反神羅組織アバランチに協力するなか、古代種の女性エアリスと出会い、星を守る戦いに乗り出す。

As for the Memorial Words quote from the Highwind, that's this one:

"......the master of my own illusionary world.
But I can't remain trapped in an illusion any more......
I'm going to live my life without pretending."

Aerith isn't mentioned in the quote or the discussion of it.




Now for more translations that people were interested in.

From pg. 17, in Cloud's Memorial Words:

----
"My fingers are tingling.
My mouth is dry.
My eyes are burning!"
Forgotten Capital: When he holds Aerith's body

The words that come rushing out when he is confronted with Aerith's sudden death. A "sad" expression is not used; with only words used to show his condition, the depth of his grief is expressed all the more.

Japanese text:
「指先がチリチリする。
口の中はカララだ。
目の奥が熱いんだ！」
忘らるる都：エアリスの亡きがらを抱きしめ

エアリスの突然の最期に直面して言葉をしぼり出す。「悲しい」という表現を使わず、事実だけを語る様子が、かえって悲しみの深さを感じさせる。

Source photo:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/cloudsgrief_zps2d37e554.jpg
----


From pg. 21, in Cloud's Memorial Scenes:

----
The True Wish Revealed
When Cloud was a young child, he was isolated from those around his age, and so he tries convincing himself that he must be special. However, Tifa was still important to him —— this childhood awakening of love is revealed in the spirit world.

Japanese text:
明かされた本当の願い
幼いころのクラウドは、同年代の者たちから孤立し、自分は特別だと思いこもうとする、ねくれた子どもだった。そんな彼にとって大切だったのがティファ——淡く幼い恋心が、精神世界にて明かされる。

Source photo:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/awakeningoflove_zps6dba802a.jpg
----

I may have to make a bit of a concession to Quexinos because of this one. The part I've translated as "childhood awakening of love" is 淡く幼い恋心. That first part of the construction, 淡く, is apparently equivalent to ほのか ("honoka") -- the "weak"/"dim" word we've debated about from that one quote in the Crisis Core Ultimania (the one about Cloud "dimly"/"weakly"/"secretly"/whatever falling in love with Tifa when they were kids).

I'm glad that Danseru-kun's friend has said the context of that line still implies the feelings are secret, so I don't feel like a complete goob, but I do have to give it to Que (and hito as well, I guess) that the wording itself refers more to the initial stirrings of romantic love.

Next, from pg. 29 in Aerith's Memorial Scenes:

----
pg. 29
You Okay?
She meets Cloud again when he fells from the Sector 5 plate into her favorite place, the church in Sector 5's slums. They talk together peacefully, but Shin-Ra's malevolent reach targets the Ancient in this place ...

Japanese text:
だいじょぶ？
お気に入りの場所である伍番街スラムの教会で花の手入れをしていたところ、伍番街プレートから落下してきたクラウドと再会。彼となごやかに語り合うが、そこへ古代種を狙う神羅の魔手が……。

Source photo:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/secondmeeting_zps6825096c.jpg
----

And, finally, from pg. 41, in Cait Sith's Memorial Scenes:

----
Cloud and Aerith's Compatability?
Being able to switch to another mechanical body, he volunteers to sacrifice himself for the purpose of obtaining the Black Materia. Grateful for getting his comrades to believe in him, the last thing he does is predict Aerith and Cloud's compatability ...

Japanese text:
エアリスとクラウドの相性？
機械の身体で替えがきくという理由から、自分を犠牲に黒マテリアを入手する役目を買って出る。仲間に信じてもらえたお礼に、最後にエアリスとクラウドの相性を占うと……。

Source photo:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/finalprediction_zpscb629476.jpg
----

Other than the bit from Cloud's Memorial Scenes, I had already translated all the particularly romantic bits, it seems.

 

[Strangelove]

Anyway Danseru's information/list about Cloud's page looks about right more or less

Spoiler

though I've heard something about Aerith's smile is also mentioned in Cloud's Highwind line and there's also a little blurb which mentions both Tifa and Aerith - thought this might be they both favour him again bit/line?

http://i47.tinypic.com/2nvs7xe.jpg

http://i50.tinypic.com/2953c6v.jpg

The first is just a description of the story (he works with AVALANCHE on Tifa's request, and meets Aerith along the way). I don't know what you mean by Cloud's Highwind line mentioning except the one about living in reality which doesn't mention Aerith at all.

Spoiler: text of the first

巨大な剣バスターソードを武器とする青年。幼なじみのティファの頼みで反神羅組織アバランチに協力するなか、古代種のエアリスと出会い、星を守る戦いに乗り出す。神羅の精鋭兵であるソルジャー・クラス１ｓｔだったと自称していたが、それは、身に宿るジェノバ細胞が創り上げた偽りの記憶。星の敵となったかつての英雄セフィロスを追ううちに、己の正体を見つめ直すことになる。

Spoiler: text for the second (possible errors)

ジェノバ細胞の作用とはいえ、無意識に理想の自分を演じていたクラウド。それを認めたとき、クラウドの本当の戦いがはじまる。

edit; tres goddamit

 

[Splintered]

When Cloud was a young child, he was isolated from those around his age, and so he tries convincing himself that he must be special.

Oh, maybe it's just me, but I felt this kind of reminded me of Sephiroth. Just as Sephiroth started going axecrazy, he mentions he felt he thought he felt he was someone special- even when he was growing up (unless I'm remembering wrong), just not in the way Shinra made him. And then he had the delusion he was special as an ancient, the same way Cloud thought he was special as a SOLDIER 1st class.

I like the little parallels between Cloud and Sephiroth

/Back to regularly scheduled programming.

 

[skyrise]

It's more than just C/T being canon. It's various other things I've been advocating for some time.

Um, by higher authorities I didn't mean any moderators or anything, I meant Square actually.

I see people are still trying to twist words and translate stuff to their favor; oh fandom, when it comes to shipping you will never change. (especially when the ship you were supporting went down faster than titanic.)

Thanks for the further translations Eagleye.

 

[Vendel]

----
The True Wish Revealed
When Cloud was a young child, he was isolated from those around his age, and so he tries convincing himself that he must be special. However, Tifa was still important to him —— this childhood awakening of love is revealed in the spirit world.

Japanese text:
明かされた本当の願い
幼いころのクラウドは、同年代の者たちから孤立し、自分は特別だと思いこもうとする、ねくれた子どもだった。そんな彼にとって大切だったのがティファ——淡く幼い恋心が、精神世界にて明かされる。

Source photo:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/awakeningoflove_zps6dba802a.jpg
----

I may have to make a bit of a concession to Quexinos because of this one. The part I've translated as "childhood awakening of love" is 淡く幼い恋心. That first part of the construction, 淡く, is apparently equivalent to ほのか ("honoka") -- the "weak"/"dim" word we've debated about from that one quote in the Crisis Core Ultimania (the one about Cloud "dimly"/"weakly"/"secretly"/whatever falling in love with Tifa when they were kids).

I'm glad that Danseru-kun's friend has said the context of that line still implies the feelings are secret, so I don't feel like a complete goob, but I do have to give it to Que (and hito as well, I guess) that the wording itself refers more to the initial stirrings of romantic love.

I'm not sure what the issue is here. Cloud was like 8 when all this stuff started right? Or close enough. It says it right there in your translation.

By the time he makes the promise or by the time he comes back two years later things have obviously changed. Considering these are the same feelings that make him confess with his penis under the Highwind.

It's the relationship charts all over again.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Um, by higher authorities I didn't mean any moderators or anything, I meant Square actually.

So did I. I was saying they're confirming a lot more than just C/T is canon.

I see people are still trying to twist words and translate stuff to their favor; oh fandom, when it comes to shipping you will never change. (especially when the ship you were supporting went down faster than titanic.)

Thanks for the further translations Eagleye.

Forever shall the fandom attempt to launch the sunken ship.

 

[skyrise]

So did I. I was saying they're confirming a lot more than just C/T is canon.

Oh, sorry then, misunderstood.

Forever shall the fandom attempt to launch the sunken ship.

Well, we all know that people will always get most worked up on who will end up with whom, but there's a line between arguing withing rightful grounds and just making a fool of yourself with material that oppose to whatever was it that you were supporting.

Chasing your tail, basically.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm not sure what the issue is here. Cloud was like 8 when all this stuff started right? Or close enough. It says it right there in your translation.

By the time he makes the promise or by the time he comes back two years later things have obviously changed. Considering these are the same feelings that make him confess with his penis under the Highwind.

It's the relationship charts all over again.

I agree with you.

There's no issue. Just an observation about a particular translation Que and I never agreed on until now. I don't mind conceding in the face of reason.

 

[Strangelove]

you should have conceded to me years ago