The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Yeah a lot of that is bull. Not the Cloud/Tifa stuff but the anti Cloud/Aerith stuff like Cloud barely gave a jack all about Aerith, never fancied her in any way, shape, or form, Aerith was never interested in the real Cloud in any way, shape or form, and ye olde Cloud was just trying to escape from this crazy stalker girl (hey it couldn't be because Elmyra asked him to leave and/or because Cloud didn't want to take Aerith to a more dangerous part of the slums/someplace she might end up in danger - remember Avalanche was a suspected terrorist group and Sector 7 was their base - of course Cloud wanted to get back to Tifa/Avalanche/Sector 7, doesn't mean he didn't care/have any concern for Aerith - right?) Also Cloud can actually choose to go on to Sector 7 with Aerith rather than sending her home, and Aerith didn't need to know Tifa to be concerned about any girl being taken to Wall Market knowing what kind of place that was Oh and completely annoying and bothering the shizz out of him, oh yeah he never enjoyed any of the time he was with her at all, guess that's why he was smiling/laughing/light fun bantering with her ... why he showed interest in/prompt encouraged her to reveal/tell more about her past/he didn't just show concern about whether or not she had been close to some other guy oh no, while they were in the park, not likes there's quotes in the Ultimania about Cloud feeling a sense of peace while with Aerith/during their time together when they meet in the church or anything either ... oh wait ...

Thanks for all the replies earlier everyone, I'm not ignoring peoples, I appreciate the reasonings, I felt better after reading some stuffs, I am just taking my time thinking about it all and want to take the time to think of well thought out/well formulated/reasonable reply

*hugs j00 all back*

Spoiler

 

[T@ctic]

lol, that's me actually

OH! >.< so sorry. lol who would have known? XD well its a good thing i gave you credit or i would have been in trouble. so i take it you are for cloudxtifa? (as shown in your posts on that site)

Yeah a lot of that is bull. Not the Cloud/Tifa stuff but the anti Cloud/Aerith stuff like Cloud barely gave a jack all about Aerith, never fancied her in any way, shape, or form, Aerith was never interested in the real Cloud in any way, shape or form, and ye olde Cloud was just trying to escape from this crazy stalker girl (hey it couldn't be because Elmyra asked him to leave and/or because Cloud didn't want to take Aerith to a more dangerous part of the slums/someplace she might end up in danger - remember Avalanche was a suspected terrorist group and Sector 7 was their base - of course Cloud wanted to get back to Tifa/Avalanche/Sector 7, doesn't mean he didn't care/have any concern for Aerith - right?) Also Cloud can actually choose to go on to Sector 7 with Aerith rather than sending her home, and Aerith didn't need to know Tifa to be concerned about any girl being taken to Wall Market knowing what kind of place that was Oh and completely annoying and bothering the shizz out of him, oh yeah he never enjoyed any of the time he was with her at all, guess that's why he was smiling/laughing/light fun bantering with her ... why he showed interest in/prompt encouraged her to reveal/tell more about her past/he didn't just show concern about whether or not she had been close to some other guy oh no, while they were in the park, not likes there's quotes in the Ultimania about Cloud feeling a sense of peace while with Aerith/during their time together when they meet in the church or anything either ... oh wait ...

Thanks for all the replies earlier everyone, I'm not ignoring peoples, I appreciate the reasonings, I felt better after reading some stuffs, I am just taking my time thinking about it all and want to take the time to think of well thought out/well formulated/reasonable reply

*hugs j00 all back*

Spoiler

oh no! im not saying cloud HATED aeris or anything. its plain his heart broke when she died. a fool would even be able to see that lol. im saying the 90% aeris was working on was the romantic part while cloud's 10% was the friend side. yes he cared about aeris, im sure he did. lol thats why he feels so guilty in the movie. and you are an introvert i see...digesting and thinking before you talk...wise choice.

 

[Goodbye Charlie]

Yeah a lot of that is bull. Not the Cloud/Tifa stuff but the anti Cloud/Aerith stuff like Cloud barely gave a jack all about Aerith, never fancied her in any way, shape, or form, Aerith was never interested in the real Cloud in any way, shape or form, and ye olde Cloud was just trying to escape from this crazy stalker girl (hey it couldn't be because Elmyra asked him to leave and/or because Cloud didn't want to take Aerith to a more dangerous part of the slums/someplace she might end up in danger - remember Avalanche was a suspected terrorist group and Sector 7 was their base - of course Cloud wanted to get back to Tifa/Avalanche/Sector 7, doesn't mean he didn't care/have any concern for Aerith - right?) Also Cloud can actually choose to go on to Sector 7 with Aerith rather than sending her home, and Aerith didn't need to know Tifa to be concerned about any girl being taken to Wall Market knowing what kind of place that was Oh and completely annoying and bothering the shizz out of him, oh yeah he never enjoyed any of the time he was with her at all, guess that's why he was smiling/laughing/light fun bantering with her ... why he showed interest in/prompt encouraged her to reveal/tell more about her past/he didn't just show concern about whether or not she had been close to some other guy oh no, while they were in the park, not likes there's quotes in the Ultimania about Cloud feeling a sense of peace while with Aerith/during their time together when they meet in the church or anything either ... oh wait ...

To me the way to see his relationship with Aeris is all true up to a point. One needs to see it through the eyes of a man who has had a mental breakdown and no longer is true to himself. See it as Clark Kent, who has had a breakdown and forgotten Lois, and now sees himself as Spider-Man saving the lovely Mary Jane from the clutches of Dr Doom. He is a hero, he saves the lovely Mary Jane, who herself finds herself looking to him as a hero. He takes the responsibility of that mantle, and that adoration, and I'm sure sees her as what she is, a warm, generous and attractive personality. If he was Spider-Man he'd probably let himself fall for her, but he isn't, he's Clark Kent who while forgotten, has a lifepath that isn't Spider-Man's, it's Superman's. When he awakens to who he is, Superman, that time spent as Spider-Man falls away, but the failure to protect that one person who saw him as their guardian, isn't lost, in fact, perhaps made worse by the fact he wasn't the man she thought he was. Not only was he not faithful to the mantle he assumed, he failed in it. Aeries wanted a Spider-Man, and he couldn't protect her as Spider-Man would, and he wasn't even Spider-Man, his whole life was devoted to someone else. That's a horribly messed up situation to be in.

So regardless of what he felt pretending to be Spider-Man, ultimately, he's Superman, his devotion is always to Lois. I would imagine that fact would eat into his guilt and honour even more so - you failed the girl who you swore to honourably protect, in your fake little mindmess. For an honourable man that's a massive hit. No wonder he was a mess in Advent Children.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

/applause

 

[T@ctic]

lol found this from (http://www.finalfantasyforums.net/threads/43481-Cloud-s-Love-Triangle-The-LTD-of-FFVII/page40) nothingtoseehere.


"

"but cloud agreed on the date!" yeah, and tried to DITICH her in the dead of night in her OWN HOUSE. that some dedication isnt it? and cloud was also leaving her house to go to who do you think? tifa.

"but cloud was broken when she died!" um, yeah. im sure he did. you guys sure do state the obvious a lot dont you? cloud was clearly devastated when she died. but was he the only one? no. everybody felt horrible. and when he talks about aerith, switch "she" with "he". does cloud seem gay? no. he seems perfectly fine. there is nothing romantic about this. cloud is angry and sad for his friend.

"but cloud has undying feelings for her!" you mean he DID have undying feelings. squall says that this statement came out BEFORE advent children,and in the movie, we see his "undying feeling" is nothing but guilt, paired with zack's. last i check, cloud wanted to get over his guilt to he could get to what he truly felt happy with, TIFA and the children. his FAMILY.

"but clouds mother! remember what she said?" that he should have an older girl to take care of him? sure i remember. do you also remember that she said "I think that would be good for you?" is clouds mother her son? no. so this is HER view on what girl cloud should be with. this does sound like aerith, no doubt, but do you also remember that cloud said he WASNT INTERESTED into what his mom said? in case you forgot, cloud is still obsessed with tifa at this point, who is technically not even one year younger than him. only by months.

"ok, cant you at least admit that there CLOUD have been a relationship with cloud and aerith?" no. because there wasnt. the idea that cloud and aerith were going to end up together was the RED HERRING of the game. cloud -the REAL cloud - was (and is) very passionately in love with tifa. it was ALWAYS tifa. like i said before, please give me anything the real cloud wanted from aerith but forgiveness, right along with zack.

"why didnt we see cloud and tifa hug or kiss then?"did cloud and aerith? no. but your question is did cloud and tifa hug or kiss, right? well, we didnt SEE cloud and tifa hug or kiss, but what we CAN be sure of is, thanks to the highwind scene, we KNOW plenty well cloud and tifa did not only hugging and kissing, but they did a lot more than those things that night.

"oh yeah? then why does aerith love cloud more than zack?" i dont think this is true at all, but that is aerith's business. what we are dealing with is CLOUD. not aerith. we get the idea that aerith likes him. what we dont get is cloud mirroring that feeling - as REAL cloud.

"he said he liked her eyes and smile!" BS. you could CHOOSE whether to say that or completely diss her off like whore she is (just kidding dont get offended). also, CLOUD doenst tell her this. the fake one does.

"but the date is shoooo romantic!" no its not. all the dates are one sided and aerith does all the work on the date on hers, just as much as everyone's, even tifa's. anyway none of them are canon. once again even if cloud was being romantic on the date, he wouldn't be reacting out of his OWN feelings. it would be JENOVA'S control and zach. the real cloud DOES react out of his feelings for tifa very clearly in the highwind scene, though. come again cleriths!"

what do ya think? : P i agree wholeheartedly.

@Goodbye

i like and respect your analysis, but i dont think thats quite it :/ i mean i cant find one official quote that 100% supports clerith.

 

[jazzflower92]

Oh, no it lives again.

 

[T@ctic]

Oh, no it lives again.

it always will. NEVA WILL DA TRIANGLE SHTAP!!

ironically its more of a circle than a triangle since its a cycle for every FF forum.

 

[Goodbye Charlie]

It's also a "X" cos its hawt with all that adult under-the-highwind lovin, and square because its like, totally nerdy, man.

So whenever you look at a playstation controller, think of the LTD, as you're pressing its buttons, dear chaps.

 

[Wolfhart]

Ok... I will share my views on this topic... this controversial topic. These are just my views, I'm not saying they're canon/the truth

In the original game, for me there were a lot of things suggesting that it would be Cloud x Aerith (e.g.: Cloud laughing for the first and only time while he was with her, his mother saying that he needed a girlfriend that was older than him, Cait Sith's answer when Aerith asks about their affinity...). What I mean is that it's like the game gave you hints that Cloud's partner should be Aerith, or at least that was my impression.

But then comes what I consider to be the key moment of the game, and that is realizing Cloud's true identity. And for me it was not only a realization of who Cloud really was but also a confession of his feelings. When they're in Cloud's subconscious and he says that he wanted to be noticed by someone and then he says who is that someone... I feel like the game reveals another truth, and that is who Cloud's real partner is/should be.

That's with regard to the OG... In my opinion, Case of Tifa shows Cloud has romantic feelings for Tifa at least in two moments... 1) When he says something similar to "But now it will be okay... because I have you this time", etc. 2) When he says he will be there to remind her how she really is (optimistic, strong...) and then he blushes...

So for me it would be Cloud x Tifa... And just in case, I respect all the opinions in this topic and I only wanted to share what I think at the moment. You can notice this post isn't really elaborate because I'm not trying to prove anything, I'm just voicing my opinion!

(Sorry for that last part, but in this kind of topic, I prefer to be cautious )

 

[T@ctic]

Ok... I will share my views on this topic... this controversial topic. These are just my views, I'm not saying they're canon/the truth

In the original game, for me there were a lot of things suggesting that it would be Cloud x Aerith (e.g.: Cloud laughing for the first and only time while he was with her, his mother saying that he needed a girlfriend that was older than him, Cait Sith's answer when Aerith asks about their affinity...). What I mean is that it's like the game gave you hints that Cloud's partner should be Aerith, or at least that was my impression.

But then comes what I consider to be the key moment of the game, and that is realizing Cloud's true identity. And for me it was not only a realization of who Cloud really was but also a confession of his feelings. When they're in Cloud's subconscious and he says that he wanted to be noticed by someone and then he says who is that someone... I feel like the game reveals another truth, and that is who Cloud's real partner is/should be.

That's with regard to the OG... In my opinion, Case of Tifa shows Cloud has romantic feelings for Tifa at least in two moments... 1) When he says something similar to "But now it will be okay... because I have you this time", etc. 2) When he says he will be there to remind her how she really is (optimistic, strong...) and then he blushes...

So for me it would be Cloud x Tifa... And just in case, I respect all the opinions in this topic and I only wanted to share what I think at the moment. You can notice this post isn't really elaborate because I'm not trying to prove anything, I'm just voicing my opinion!

(Sorry for that last part, but in this kind of topic, I prefer to be cautious )

wwot woot! you got it on the nail! the whole point was that clerith was a red herring. cloud cared (and still does care) very deeply for aerith. but it was ALWAYS tifa,from 8yrs old on up to now. i think clerith is just a place where fangurls can huddle in denial and dream up final fantasies of cloud and aerith making out or something. i hate couples as much as satan hates the world but this one just got to meh :/ dont worry. S/E has said in multiple sorces that "cloti" is correct and canon. its only natural for you to have this hunch. my parents HATE this franchise, but even they said "cloti" (not that it comfirms anything). S/E made it as obvious as possible without going outright and saying "CLOTI IS REAL NOT CLERITH YOU SILLY FANGURLS!!!!"

also "cloud" didnt really laugh with aerith. he never did. but the "zack" cloud did. the word of God (or ultimania) says that he was under JENOVA'S control at that time in the same sentance they explain the laugh.

 

[T@ctic]

I honestly can't say I care for copy-pasting huge walls of text/talking points that point out the facts of Cloud and Tifa's relationship any better than I like when BlankBeat does it with CloudxAerith stuff.

This is all the LTD is anymore, isn't it?

i must agree. ive been thinking on what to reply to you but i just couldnt find the words.

i like discussing more than quotes,to be honest. even on the clerith side. quotes DO have an ultimate confirmation for me,though. i like to quote a little, but discuss using logic and unbaised views. maybe if it goes right an opinion here and there. but someone just slapping some quotes and leaving doesnt really do anything for me.

and the whole conversation anaysis on cloud and tifa on page 2.........beautiful. you really gotta love aisan writing. tifa using marlene as herself was wonderful. it proves she knows cloud inside and out (most of the time) and made the conversation more comfortable for him before the whole thing died. she had to think of a way to stretch extra time before it went into dust and used marlene. smart tifa! i salute to her wifey skillz




a bit big i know, but this is EXACTLY on how i think cloud feels about tifa. on a quiet sunset, cloud silently reaches for her hand, knowing shes there. tifa takes it,smiling gently. they know they love each other, but are shy as beat up dogs to say it. oh, they displayed it long ago,but seems like they just cant say it right out. it signifies so much that words just cant say. and considering that the picture is titled "The Wall" i think that the artist understands the relationship too. its the best cloti pic ive bumped into. it displays the privateness of the love between then that is so passionate. ah but here i go, talking about fake characters and their love relationship like its the meaning of life : P

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

... but ... but Cloud only decided to stay with Avalanche for the money, he was only trying to get back to Sector 7 for his moniez peoplez No, wait moar, he was tots going to ditch Tifa early if he didn't get his money, he tots ditched Aerith, was going to ditch Tifa, guy's a heartless money grabbing cad who didn't give jack about the promise to Tifa or Aerith's safety/Elmyra's request

S/E has said in multiple sorces that "cloti" is correct and canon.

Square Enix has said no such thing directly. Square Enix has never said in exact direct words "here is the one and only canon couple of FFVII and it is X"

S/E made it as obvious as possible without going outright and saying "CLOTI IS REAL NOT CLERITH YOU SILLY FANGURLS!!!!"

ORLY? Which is why one of the last shippy things did was of Emperor Cloud/Empress Aerith/The Royal Couple as seen in Japan

(sorry Splintered

Spoiler

Here have a plushie

Both Cloud/Aerith and Cloud/Tifa are officially endorsed and recognised by Square Enix, Square likes to put Cloud and Aerith together in things all the time

Spoiler

the Cloti cameos are cute too!

, as people here have mentioned earlier some people on the team clearly have a soft spot for the pair

Please stop bashing Clerith and Cleriths by going around saying things like Cloud deliberately ditched Aerith/wasn't at all interested in her or if he was it was only b/c of Zack/Jenova, I am so goddamn sick of the lol Zack/Jenova made him do it excuse No, Cloud laughed/smiled with Aerith because he was genuinely having a good/fun time, just as there are other quotes about Cloud/Aerith sharing a time of peace/comfort together in the church. I am perfectly fine about Cloud and Tifa smiling and laughing together too/the times they share, there is no need to twist such things. Also with the silly fangirl stuff, stahp

By the way Monik XIII expressed a view/opinion beautifully without resorting to bashing or downplaying/demeaning anyone or anyone, a well done post which opinion reflects my own opinions somewhat. Only in my case it wasn't until I found out about the Ultimanias/read some information from them and the Compilation that I began to really appreciate Cloti more than before. For me at least I thought the likes of the Lifestream and the Highwind scene were kind of subtle and I didn't get the undertones at first, I really thought it was all about Cloud's identity and putting the Cloud all back together again (also being younger didn't fully grasp the concept/context of a words aren't the only thing thing) I thought the Clerith, the Clerith date, etc were more "obvious" (not sure if that's the right word) and in the end with Cloud and Aerith's hands and Cloud/Aerith reaching for each other I genuinely thought Cloud wanted to meet and be with Aerith again ^-^ Then for a while I thought as a stand alone things were left ambigious with the original game as a stand alone.

**
Sorry peoples, had to, my feathers got ruffled

Spoiler

Edit : I forgot to say I thought the Superman/Spiderman thing was a cool analysis!

 

[Wolfhart]

For me at least I thought the likes of the Lifestream and the Highwind scene were kind of subtle and I didn't get the undertones at first, I really thought it was all about Cloud's identity and putting the Cloud all back together again (also being younger didn't fully grasp the concept/context of a words aren't the only thing thing) I thought the Clerith, the Clerith date, etc were more "obvious" (not sure if that's the right word) and in the end with Cloud and Aerith's hands and Cloud/Aerith reaching for each other I genuinely thought Cloud wanted to meet and be with Aerith again ^-^ Then for a while I thought as a stand alone things were left ambigious with the original game as a stand alone.

Yes, you've got a point there. When I play the game, for me is like Cloud x Aerith at the beginning and Cloud x Tifa later, but then at the end of the game it's true that Cloud says he wants to meet Aerith, and sometimes I interpret Tifa's expression when he says that as if she was sad because she realizes that Cloud wants to be with Aerith instead of her... but I'm really not sure about my interpretation... (maybe it's just a sign of sadness because of Aerith's death). So I agree that the original game might result ambiguous.

PS: sorry if I'm not making any sense and sorry for the ones that have had enough of this debate!

 

[T@ctic]

... but ... but Cloud only decided to stay with Avalanche for the money, he was only trying to get back to Sector 7 for his moniez peoplez No, wait moar, he was tots going to ditch Tifa early if he didn't get his money, he tots ditched Aerith, was going to ditch Tifa, guy's a heartless money grabbing cad who didn't give jack about the promise to Tifa or Aerith's safety/Elmyra's request

this is disproved given the fact that cloud isnt cloud at this point. hes zack/JENOVA. he was also motivated by barret saying "a promise is a promise" and giving him the money, then cloud decided to stay anyway. this means that the real cloud is reacting (but in veeeeery little amounts) to tifa somewhat. even if he was going to ditch both of them its not cloud. the real cloud is yet to be seen for a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time. its then revealed cloud did nearly everything for tifa, unconscious or not.

Square Enix has said no such thing directly. Square Enix has never said in exact direct words "here is the one and only canon couple of FFVII and it is X"

tha-that wuz my point....._.

i said that S/E has done everything BESIDES going outright and saying that. and in someway they have. ill find the quote soon but im sure someone has quoted it already. remember when one of nomura or nojima said he was SURE they would be together? in fact, "together" is a very frequent word in discussing their relationship.

ORLY? Which is why one of the last shippy things did was of Emperor Cloud/Empress Aerith/The Royal Couple as seen in Japan

and that proves.........

nothing.

but you do get an ostrich egg for your try though : D

Both Cloud/Aerith and Cloud/Tifa are officially endorsed and recognised by Square Enix, Square likes to put Cloud and Aerith together in things all the time

Spoiler

the Cloti cameos are cute too!

, as people here have mentioned earlier some people on the team clearly have a soft spot for the pair

and thats what you think makes none of them are canon? because of what the TEAM likes? this once again proves nothing. one person on the team said that 9 is his favorite. does that make all the other games crappy or better than nine?

and i just love that cleriths say "omg its neither couple!" but then lash out at clotis for saying its one couple. not only that cleriths have PROOF to back up their statements on their couple but then turn around and say "its not either couples!! its not we swear!!!" moreover they dont support cloti at all, only clerith and yet they STILL insist "its either couple!" why i wonder?

because they KNOW there can only be one couple, but they deny it and hide behind the lame excuse of "S/E didnt say either wuz canown"

rather hypocritical dont ya think? : P

Please stop bashing Clerith and Cleriths by going around saying things like Cloud deliberately ditched Aerith/wasn't at all interested in her or if he was it was only b/c of Zack/Jenova, I am so goddamn sick of the lol Zack/Jenova made him do it excuse No, Cloud laughed/smiled with Aerith because he was genuinely having a good/fun time, just as there are other quotes about Cloud/Aerith sharing a time of peace/comfort together in the church.

lol, this is rich. you say "he ditched her because of zack and JENOVA and then you turn around and say he had a good time"?!??!?!?!?!

this is so contradictory its like shattered glass. seriously what the heck? you need to play/watch ffvii i see. you see, after that "haw haw ur sho funee aiwith" hilarious "good/fun time" he had with such a comedic girl, he tried to ditch her AFTERWORDS. proving that laugh, once again, MEANT NOTHING. look it up sometime.

stop denying the word of God. im not making stuff up.

"The only time he laughs in FFVII is during a conversation with Aerith at the start of the story,when Jenova is still in control of his consciousness."

and where are these quotes about them "feeling at peace" in the church? because it looks like to me if they are, aerith must still be alive right? and if aerith is alive it means cloud isnt himself, making it irrelevant to the real cloud.

By the way Monik XIII expressed a view/opinion beautifully without resorting to bashing or downplaying/demeaning anyone or anyone, a well done post which opinion reflects my own opinions somewhat.

ohhhh so we're in the opinion pool now. no proof. just plain opinions, because ya know, thats how we get stuff worked out in the most seriously taken debate in FFVII history.

Only in my case it wasn't until I found out about the Ultimanias/read some information from them and the Compilation that I began to really appreciate Cloti more than before. For me at least I thought the likes of the Lifestream and the Highwind scene were kind of subtle and I didn't get the undertones at first, I really thought it was all about Cloud's identity and putting the Cloud all back together again

maybe because you were too young playing a T rated game to figure out the OBVIOUS PROOFS of cloud desperately trying to get tifa back whenever he could after the sephiroth incident, when he lets her in his mind and practically his soul. maybe you were too young to see every single memory he had involved tifa and even his SECRET memory was especially and even exclusively about tifa. maybe you were too young to see that being the real cloud meant being with tifa.

maybe your mind wasnt all that developed to notice the under the highwind scene wasnt subtle AT ALL and even if S/E added the "IN the highwind" scene you'd still be scratching your tiny little head. maybe youth made you be blind to the fact that cloud and her were extremely nervous with each other the next day, the joke nanaki was about to say to cloud and tifa but cid stopped him short, and the "weird" or "sick" way cloud was acting with yuffie.

(also being younger didn't fully grasp the concept/context of a words aren't the only thing thing)

oh. you were. but then again, you cant stop 10yr olds from playing T rated games anymore than stopping them from playing COD.

I thought the Clerith, the Clerith date, etc were more "obvious" (not sure if that's the right word)

good. you fell for the cloudxaerith red herring that S/E lead ALL OF US to believe. it does look like cloud and aerith are a couple. atleast you were young enough to know that. but in the end cloud turns out to always love tifa, even when it looked like clerith, it wasnt. ever.

and in the end with Cloud and Aerith's hands and Cloud/Aerith reaching for each other I genuinely thought Cloud wanted to meet and be with Aerith again ^-^ Then for a while I thought as a stand alone things were left ambigious with the original game as a stand alone.

a day after cloud JUST HAD SEX with tifa he wants aerith? yeah logical right? toooootaally clerith.

 

[I Am Not Me]

Just coming in here to say that Cloud also laughed and had a good time with Zack the first time they met.

 

[T@ctic]

Just coming in here to say that Cloud also laughed and had a good time with Zack the first time they met.

true. : D also i lol at your sig everytime. XD my bro asked how did you get the text to look like that lol!

EDIT: wowza, im the 5941st talker on a new page woot woot!

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Somebody didn't pick up on the sarcasm

I didn't mean/am not saying Cloud ditched Aerith -or- Tifa, -you- said Aerith got ditched Orah, I wasn't agreeing with it, I was being sarcastic, the bit about Tifa was also sarcasm, obviously he didn't just ditch Tifa either, both pieces/the short blurb at the start of my last post was a word play/mimicry of the worst sides of both sides of the fanbase.

**

You didn't need to have a go at my age or mentality and/or make up stuff about my mind or age. I wasn't ten and there was no need to have a go about being underdeveloped or w/e. There was no call for it, I never said anything anti Cloti or bashed Cloud/Tifa. As for opinions there is no rule here/for/at the start of this topic about not allowing opinions, as far as I know opinions are allowed as long as they are civil and respectful to others. All I asked was for you to please stop bashing Clerith/Cleriths. I never tried to pass my experiences with certain scenes off as fact.

However there are facts about Cloti and about Clerith too that this site accepts, and even that are used in Squall/Tres/Hawkeye's LTD FAQ. Cloud also not just ditching Aerith is also fact, in game he tells her it would be dangerous to go, and Aerith's adopted mom Elmyra actually asks Cloud to leave without Aerith, so he leaves so Aerith would be left in a safe place/not taken into danger and because of Elmyra's request. Then shortly later again he mentions the danger to Aerith outside the entrance to Sector 6
"How could I ask you to go along when I knew it would be
dangerous?"
It has nothing to do with Cloud just ditching Aerith because he wasn't interested or w/e like an Aerith hater/etc would say, we already know he was interested because of what he says to Marlene, etc, backed up by the Ultimanias.

Another example of Cloud showing concern or such over the fact Aerith might be getting into danger

Spoiler

Aerith
"Hey, this looks like the Don's mansion. I'll go take a look."
"I'll tell Tifa about you."

Cloud
"No!! You can't!!"

Aerith
"Why?"

Cloud
"You DO know... what kind of... place this is, don't you?"

Aerith
"Then, what am I supposed to do? You want to go in with me?"

Cloud
"Well being a man, that'll be pretty hard. Besides if I bust in
there, it'll cause too much commotion."
(Aerith is giggling.)

Cloud
"But, I just can't let you go in alone... Oh, man......"
"First, we'll need to find out if Tifa's alright...."
"What's so funny, Aerith?" (of course he is also concerned about/showing concern over Tifa here too

People who are secure in their own pairings don't need to bash other pairings and/or try to undermine them/try to tear apart their scenes, they are able to make/prove a case for their own pairing without resorting to doing so. There are people/debaters here from both sides who are capable of doing such a thing.

Me - I know that, but you don't see me going around trying to demean the smile/fun times Cloud had with Tifa or Zack. When people undermine/demean Cloud and Aerith's early moments/times together with all the lols Zack/Jenovas did it it's not just demeaning to their potential romance but either way it undermines/demeans their friendship and special bond (you know the special bond the source materials said they had) =/

 

[Unlucky]

Well personally speaking I don't think it's considered 'undermining' when people say that Cloud wasn't himself when that smile happened. It's supported in the Ultimania, right?

But of course people can think this while still acknowledging that Aerith is important to him.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

All it says is the only time Cloud smiled in FFVII was while with Aerith, at a time where he wasn't fully in control/he was vulnerable/susceptible. This could be interpreted in different ways such as it's impressive Cloud could still smile/laugh while in such a state, it doesn't necessarily mean Zack/Jenova was responsible/in charge of/controlled Cloud to do each and every little thing on disc one. The Ultimanias don't directly state anything such thing as Cloud only laughed/smiled with Aerith because Jenova/etc made him do it or Jenova controlled/made him react in a certain way with all his actions with Aerith, as far as I know. I don't think Square Enix meant it in a negative way. Personally I think Cloud had some good times not only with Aerith but also with Tifa on disc one and I don't think just because Cloud's mind was messed up they mean nothing

Like ... the time where Cloud asks Barret to take care of Tifa before he falls or when he sits down to listen and respond to Tifa at Cosmo Canyon (both Tifa and Aerith are the only ones he's that attentive to there)

Jenova/Zack is also not in control of his hormones pretty sure so when Cloud tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him/shows interest in Aerith here (Ultimania ftw!) (or when he's attracted by/remembers her smile, not optional by the way, there isn't a scene in the game where you "choose" to like Aerith's eyes/smile) ... he likes her

In Orah's case it is demeaning because he/she did say it meant nothing, I don't think everybody means that but I've seen some people around the internets make out/say such. Orah says it means nothing and Cloud just "ditched" Aerith which is hyperbole or w/e, he did not heartlessly ditch or just dimiss her, he took her to safety at her mother's house, made sure she was safe and left her there because he didn't want to take her into danger/so she would be save and also because Elmyra's request is for him to leave Aerith behind.

Edit - Just to make it clear I wasn't say Me was or anything, me and ME are good

 

[I Am Not Me]

Just call me Mei.

And I inserted that little tidbit because it goes both ways. First, it wasn't just Aerith who made Cloud smile during their first moments, Zack also did, therefore it's not exclusively a Cloud and Aerith thing. Second, relating to the first, saying Cloud and Aerith's happy moment means nothing is also demeaning the immediate bond Cloud and Zack shared and I don't approve of that.

Everything else is non-Clack related so it's irrelevant to me.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Thanks Mei

Spoiler

Cloud and Zack's first meeting was definitely special. After all coming from Cloud who was usually a sort of antisocial/distant/cold guy when he was younger for him to interact with Zack in such a way, reaching out and interacting, it means a lot There should be a quote about how impressive that scene was if there isn't already

 

[Onion Knight]

Just call me Mei.

And I inserted that little tidbit because it goes both ways. First, it wasn't just Aerith who made Cloud smile during their first moments, Zack also did, therefore it's not exclusively a Cloud and Aerith thing. Second, relating to the first, saying Cloud and Aerith's happy moment means nothing is also demeaning the immediate bond Cloud and Zack shared and I don't approve of that.

Everything else is non-Clack related so it's irrelevant to me.

That's not true, pointing out the fact that Aerith happy moment means nothing, actually doesn't demean his moment with Zack, simply because of the fact that, Zack was talking was talking to the real and Aerith wasn't.

Aerith was not talking to the real Cloud, in fact Aerith never once meets the real Cloud. She as much admits it in the game itself, that she would like to meet the real Cloud. The real Cloud was aware of what was going on, but wasn't in control of his own body. This doesn't just apply to Aerith but also every other character that Cloud interacted with during this time period as well, including Tifa who aware of the fact that Cloud was not himself from Day one.

Really one has to be careful what one attributes to Cloud in disc 1 of the game, because it may not be Cloud, but his representative. That is pretty much how I treat the LTD in FFVII. At the end of the day Aerith never met the real Cloud, we can't very well say that if she lived she and Cloud would be in a relationship, because Tifa would still be needed to help put Cloud back together, since she's the only one who actually knows him. Whose to say that Aerith won't back won't when she realizes that the Cloud and Tifa have feelings for one another?

Also is the fact that, despite what Aerith said in the game, she wasn't over over Zack, her behavior when you visit Zack's parents with her in the party is an blatant indication of that, she didn't want to believe that he had died, instead insisting that he was alive somewhere dating whatever pretty girl came his way, even though as a Cetra she is aware of that fact. Every single thing she said about being over Zack reeked of denial.

There is also the fact that Aerith most likely would not be able to be with Cloud when he would need her help, because the Planet would need her help more, so she'd go with the rest of the party. It would be hard decision for her to make, but she'd still have to do it. Goes without saying but Aerith and Cloud, actually have way more hurdles than Tifa and Cloud.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Exactly, the real Cloud was there. Which is why he later remembers her laugh, her smile, etc both in his speech when he held her in his arms at the end of disc one, and on the later discs when he mentions thinking of/remembering Aerith a lot, about her smiling to the end and them having to free her frozen smile. The game makes it obvious when Cloud's body is being controlled, there's creepy music and weird light effects. Cloud giving the Black Materia to Sephiroth, and beating on Aerith, Cloud raising his sword at the altar at the end of disc one, Cloud giving the Black Materia to Sephiroth at the Northern Crater, etc - yet the real Cloud was still there, little Cloud saying "No, no stop it!" about Aerith, Cloud snapping out of it at the altar "what are you making me do?", Cloud thanking Tifa, Cloud saying Tifa had been there all along, her opinion meant so much to him/was so important - are you going to tell me such a scene (during the illusion of Nibelhiem event at the Northern Crater) which also takes place during before the lifestream events, an event which people including myself think is meaningful to Cloud and Tifa's bond means nothing? I don't know what people are thinking but that was real.

Just like Cloud's grief over Aerith, and him remembering her/times with her/times when she laughed/smiled/etc was real. Cloud's raw emotions/reaction to what happened to Aerith was real, his heart felt words there were real. Jenova/etc did not control Cloud's body all the time, did she do things like make him perform CPR to save Priscilla's life, make him hold/carry Aerith's body to lay her to rest, make him say meaningful things to Tifa, etc why the hell would she do that? There are definitely scenes where Cloud is being directly controlled and when he isn't. Disc one as mentioned Cloud sitting down beside and talking/reaching out to both Tifa/Aerith, the Marlene scene, Cloud agreeing with Tifa on the Junon ship, lots of things. Like I said people saying disc one meant nothing is not just demeaning to Cloud and Aerith, whether romantic build up or no, their friendship and their special bond but to his relationship with Tifa and others too, and I for one don't believe Cloud and Tifa's bond had no build up pre lifestream/Highwind scenes either Also might as well say Cloud and Aerith never formed a friendship and/or a special bond either if everything on disc one meant nothing but no.

I agree about being careful/thinking things through for FFVII, but at the same time generally speaking sometimes I think people can be too extreme in the other direction. FFVII was a great game, made up of parts to form a compelling whole, disc one was a part of the journey with FFVII, for many people it is/might be their favorite disc so I don't think it should be dismissed completely

TL;DR - Cloud had happy time with Aerith dammit As meaningful as everybody's happy times

 

[Onion Knight]

Exactly, the real Cloud was there. Which is why he later remembers her laugh, her smile, etc both in his speech when he held her in his arms at the end of disc one, and on the later discs when he mentions thinking of/remembering Aerith a lot, about her smiling to the end and them having to free her frozen smile.

Cloud was there, but he didn't have any control of what he was saying or doing, he was merely observing. It's was the equivalent of watching TV, and seeing an character behave in a certain manner that you disagree with, yet being powerless to stop it, no matter how much you yell at the screen. That is the reason why even though the real Cloud remembers Aerith, even though he never interacted with her.

The game makes it obvious when Cloud's body is being controlled, there's creepy music and weird light effects. Cloud giving the Black Materia to Sephiroth, and beating on Aerith, Cloud raising his sword at the altar at the end of disc one, Cloud giving the Black Materia to Sephiroth at the Northern Crater, etc - yet the real Cloud was still there, little Cloud saying "No, no stop it!" about Aerith, Cloud snapping out of it at the altar "what are you making me do?",

That was when Sephiroth was in complete control of Cloud's body, that isn't the first time we hear the real Cloud yell at, or try to reach out to the fake Cloud. He yells at him at various points in disc 1 as well, you can hear him from as early as Wall Market. That was your first clue that something was very wrong with Cloud. Technically Sephiroth or rather JENOVA was in control of Cloud from day 1, that was just the first time the game spelled it out to you that something was wrong, though if you were paying attention you would have figured it out much earlier.

Cloud thanking Tifa, Cloud saying Tifa had been there all along, her opinion meant so much to him/was so important - are you going to tell me such a scene (during the illusion of Nibelhiem event at the Northern Crater) which also takes place during before the lifestream events, an event which people including myself think is meaningful to Cloud and Tifa's bond means nothing? I don't know what people are thinking but that was real.

Sadly it is, anything that Cloud says before the Lifestream event we have to take at face value. Though later on during the lifestream event real Cloud does repeat it. So yes, we can attribute this to Cloud's character.

Just like Cloud's grief over Aerith, and him remembering her/times with her/times when she laughed/smiled/etc was real. Cloud's raw emotions/reaction to what happened to Aerith was real, his heart felt words there were real. Jenova/etc did not control Cloud's body all the time, did she do things like make him perform CPR to save Priscilla's life, make him hold/carry Aerith's body to lay her to rest, make him say meaningful things to Tifa, etc why the hell would she do that? There are definitely scenes where Cloud is being directly controlled and when he isn't. Disc one as mentioned Cloud sitting down beside and talking/reaching out to both Tifa/Aerith, the Marlene scene, Cloud agreeing with Tifa on the Junon ship, lots of things. Like I said people saying disc one meant nothing is not just demeaning to Cloud and Aerith, whether romantic build up or no, their friendship and their special bond but to his relationship with Tifa and others too, and I for one don't believe Cloud and Tifa's bond had no build up pre lifestream/Highwind scenes either Also might as well say Cloud and Aerith never formed a friendship and/or a special bond either if everything on disc one meant nothing but no.

Considering that the person she was talking to wasn't the real Cloud no. Fake Disc 1 Cloud's adopted personality, was taken from Zack, it wasn't really Cloud. This is the reason why we see Tifa second guessing everything he says, because she knows that she can only take it at face value. And from what we've seen of Zack, Zack would perform CPR on Priscilia, he would flirt with Aerith, he would be nice to Marlene, basically Zack would behave in a very similar manner to disc 1 Cloud, or at least JENOVA believed that he would. Its a pretty tough pill to swallow no matter who you ship with Cloud (though because I ship Clack it doesn't affect me ).

Also Tifa and Cloud did basically restart at zero, but take into consideration even though we do know how much has passed in disc 1 we don't know how much time has passed between the other discs. Though another way to look at it is that because of Cloud's circumstance in disc 1 is the reason there are two highwind scenes. In the high affection version, you have to show affection to Tifa in disc 1. So essentially this means that even though Cloud wasn't right in the head he still loved her enough that his affection for her shined through despite the fact that he messed up. However, in low affection you did essentially start over from zero, even though the two of them do now know that they love one another, their relationship has been restarted and this is despite Cloud's words to her at the Northern Crater. Also when people are unsure of death, they will spend whatever time they have with the person they love the most, and for Tifa and Cloud (both of whose families are dead) that means each other.

I agree about being careful/thinking things through for FFVII, but at the same time generally speaking sometimes I think people can be too extreme in the other direction. FFVII was a great game, made up of parts to form a compelling whole, disc one was a part of the journey with FFVII, for many people it is/might be their favorite disc so I don't think it should be dismissed completely

TL;DR - Cloud had happy time with Aerith dammit As meaningful as everybody's happy times

I think that FFVII is a great game as well, but at the same time, I think that people put way too much importance on disc 1, when you really shouldn't, especially on the subject of Cloud, but the reveal about Cloud kinda informs us that we should take his behavior at face value.

 

[T@ctic]

Somebody didn't pick up on the sarcasm

I didn't mean/am not saying Cloud ditched Aerith -or- Tifa, -you- said Aerith got ditched Orah, I wasn't agreeing with it, I was being sarcastic, the bit about Tifa was also sarcasm, obviously he didn't just ditch Tifa either, both pieces/the short blurb at the start of my last post was a word play/mimicry of the worst sides of both sides of the fanbase.

**

You didn't need to have a go at my age or mentality and/or make up stuff about my mind or age. I wasn't ten and there was no need to have a go about being underdeveloped or w/e. There was no call for it, I never said anything anti Cloti or bashed Cloud/Tifa. As for opinions there is no rule here/for/at the start of this topic about not allowing opinions, as far as I know opinions are allowed as long as they are civil and respectful to others. All I asked was for you to please stop bashing Clerith/Cleriths. I never tried to pass my experiences with certain scenes off as fact.

However there are facts about Cloti and about Clerith too that this site accepts, and even that are used in Squall/Tres/Hawkeye's LTD FAQ. Cloud also not just ditching Aerith is also fact, in game he tells her it would be dangerous to go, and Aerith's adopted mom Elmyra actually asks Cloud to leave without Aerith, so he leaves so Aerith would be left in a safe place/not taken into danger and because of Elmyra's request. Then shortly later again he mentions the danger to Aerith outside the entrance to Sector 6
"How could I ask you to go along when I knew it would be
dangerous?"
It has nothing to do with Cloud just ditching Aerith because he wasn't interested or w/e like an Aerith hater/etc would say, we already know he was interested because of what he says to Marlene, etc, backed up by the Ultimanias.

Another example of Cloud showing concern or such over the fact Aerith might be getting into danger

Spoiler

Aerith
"Hey, this looks like the Don's mansion. I'll go take a look."
"I'll tell Tifa about you."

Cloud
"No!! You can't!!"

Aerith
"Why?"

Cloud
"You DO know... what kind of... place this is, don't you?"

Aerith
"Then, what am I supposed to do? You want to go in with me?"

Cloud
"Well being a man, that'll be pretty hard. Besides if I bust in
there, it'll cause too much commotion."
(Aerith is giggling.)

Cloud
"But, I just can't let you go in alone... Oh, man......"
"First, we'll need to find out if Tifa's alright...."
"What's so funny, Aerith?" (of course he is also concerned about/showing concern over Tifa here too

People who are secure in their own pairings don't need to bash other pairings and/or try to undermine them/try to tear apart their scenes, they are able to make/prove a case for their own pairing without resorting to doing so. There are people/debaters here from both sides who are capable of doing such a thing.

Me - I know that, but you don't see me going around trying to demean the smile/fun times Cloud had with Tifa or Zack. When people undermine/demean Cloud and Aerith's early moments/times together with all the lols Zack/Jenovas did it it's not just demeaning to their potential romance but either way it undermines/demeans their friendship and special bond (you know the special bond the source materials said they had) =/

sarcasm is not that easy to see on the 'net sis ; )

yes i agree somewhat on your part. there are proofs of cloti and clerith: when cloti is the REAL CLOUD and clerith is the FAKE CLOUD. : p it was the point of the game for EVERYONE TO THINK THAT. it is utterly impossible to think cloud will end up with tifa when he is as fake cloud. tifa nearly broke into tears when she (and we) heard of the marriage prediction. we thought it was going to happen indefinitely. but then areis died, cloud snapped, and tifa uncovered the TRUE cloud that loved her the entire time. he would never leave her and he never will and he never did. someone of the team said that clouds subconscious was the most striking in the game (in his opinion that doesnt make it true). and the ONE and ONLY time he left was because he was terrified of losing her (along with the kids). he had sex with her for pete's sake! what more proof do you need for no clerith? there IS no clerith.

if there is, question; who the heck will zack and tifa have? yea they are still there you know. moreover on the entire profile of cloud aerith is only said TWICE. and even then there is no romantic inclination on them both. but you know what is romantic for aerith? being very intimate with ZACK.

i keep asking but nobody will give it to me. most of the clerith points are when cloud is the fake cloud. where are the points are cloud loving aerith as real cloud? and why do people insist on ignoring crisis core? that changed TONS of cleriths. S/E made it explicit on the zerith points. and (although i didnt see it a lot) some ex-cleriths also admit of seeing cloti there too.

aerith isnt for cloud. and shes not. she doesnt know him more than himself, shes not said as an important woman to him (not that he doesnt love her), and he didnt feel happiest with her (not that he doesnt feel happy with her in the least,he does love her after all). he tells tifa he went to aeriths place because he felt he was useless.

also have you forgotten? when tifa told cloud she heard him call/yell her name deep in her heart? and cloud said he heard her too? thats because when they were in the lifestream they were literally stripped to nothing but their vulnerabilities. they both felt miserable and lost and their hearts each called out to each other. not aerith. not johnny. each other. unconsciously at that. that means on unknowing instinct they called for each other when things were at their worst to them. this on out for the rest of the scene is the most striking of all for someone on the team. in all honestly what more proof do you need???????

aerith is for for zack. wouldnt you think in the tinniest bit that it would be a wee bit selfish for cloud to steal his best friend's girl when S/E clearly states aerith is irreplaceable to him? wouldnt you think that at least 7%? in fact the team said they needed a reason why aerith would love cloud in the first place. they didnt say anything about giving previous loved males to TIFA for her reasons to love cloud. that by itself means that cloudxtifa was sealed and done before the entire game was finished.

i repeat: it looks entirely like clerith for almost the whole game. heck it looked like that to TIFA, so it wouldnt be surprising if WE thought it. but then tifa found cloud never stopped his love for her: even from 8yrs old. and then they spent the night on the last night on gaia. it gets as obvious and clear at that. there really is no thinking required. S/E made it as clear as the could, and was shocked when people still thought it was still clerith, which is why they note they maybe should have kept the original scene and admit that had no idea it was so important back then. which is why they tried again to make is clear that its cloudxtifa by making a family of them. which is why they make obvious love actions by cloud by making him double the amount of the promise tifa asked him too. which is why they say if cloud fulfills the promise 8trillion times he will STILL keep it because he solemnly believes that he MUST keep it.

the reason why i do not see clerith is because the points are almost 100% FFVII fake cloud, and the explicit points of zerith in crisis core S/E obviously wanted to show are much more overflowing than clerith.

and whatever special bond they have it isnt romantic. cloud made sure the romantic side is tifa. but S/E DOES say aerith is like a mother and cloud did say "mother" at the end. so the "special bond" must be that.

moreover i guess "for the one i love" doesnt change your minds either : (

its cloudxtifa and zackxaerith. its really not that hard to perceive. well, ok maybe it totally was back when it first came out. but now with overflowing proof S/E has said on both couples, i dont understand....