The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[BlankBeat]

Idk... doesn't "he loves her" just make more sense? Plus it's easier to process.. and I;m saying this to you as you've said before that Cloud does love Tifa.


It's on this very site.

EDIT:
here it is
http://thelifestream.net/lifestream...s/462/tifa-lockhart-character-profile-p42-47/

Couldn't find it at first


So her complicated feelings are because Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith’s death was his fault and condemning himself. NOT due to what you said.


*waits for this post to be ignored and for the half quote to be posted again*

You are completely ignoring the second part of that sentence which talks about Cloud thinking Aerith brought Denzel to him. Why would Tifa have "complicated feelings" toward Aerith because Cloud felt guilty over her death?

The way I read that quote is that Tifa feels complicated feelings toward Aerith because Cloud believes that Denzel was brought to him by Aerith and thus wants to take care of Denzel only because he thinks Aerith brought Denzel to him.

Cloud only wanted to start taking care of someone because he thought Aerith was involved. Tifa is pissed that Cloud only wanted to take care of someone else AFTER he thought Aerith was somehow involved.

Also -- you are completely forgetting this part of the quote, "Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa’s."

"SHE. CARRIES. COMPLEX. FEELINGS. AS. A. WOMAN. TOWARD. AERITH. WHO. HAD. BUILT. UP. A. SPECIAL. BOND. WITH. CLOUD. THAT. WAS. DIFFERENT. FROM. TIFA'S."

What is this "SPECIAL BOND" Cloud and Aerith have? What is so different about Cloud and Aerith's bond in comparison to Cloud and Tifa's bond?

Why does it specify that, "AS A WOMAN" Tifa had build up "COMPLEX" feelings toward Aerith? Maybe because the fact that both Aerith and Tifa are women (and love interests to Cloud), and the fact that Cloud and Aerith have a special bond that is different than Cloud and Tifa's bond, Tifa would thus develop complex feeling towards Aerith?

 

[Strangelove]

Loving someone =/= romantic relationship exists/flourishes/lasts forever.

did you just describe cloud/aerith?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I don't think I use anti-Cloti arguments to prove Clerith is canon.

Good, since anti-Cloti evidence, if such existed, wouldn't prove Clerith anyway

I think I use anti-Cloti arguments to show that Cloti is not as definitive as some think it is.

It is, and you can tell easily that it is so definitive because your "arguments" tend to be quote mined, cherry picked garbage that only makes sense when viewed through pink tinted glasses.

I'm not denying or diminishing the existence of non-tradiitonal families. That is your own projection of what I'm saying.

You don't have to deny it or intentionally diminish it, but you're ignoring the way in which the existence of non-traditional families can invalidate part of what you try to claim concerning the 7th Heaven Family. Said ignoring, incidentally, CAN make it seem as if you're diminishing non-traditional families.

I'm simply saying that when Cloti's say, "Cloud and Tifa are raising children together" it isn't giving the whole story. It's only scratching the surface.

Hey guys, look, this is true. That really does just scratch the surface of a greater whole. I just don't think BB here would enjoy or acknowledge what's beneath that surface. It's too busty and doesn't wear enough pink.

Two people raising a child whose Father is away on missions

He's not "away on missions." He doesn't LIVE there. 7th Heaven is not Barret's home. Also, Marlene is his kid, yes, but this does not change the fact that Cloud and Tifa are currently raising her and she is a member of THEIR family. Doesn't make her and Barret any less family, but its a distinction that needs to be made thanks to this debate and the ridiculous crap that comes of it. DENZEL, on the other hand, is JUST Cloud and Tifa's. He thinks of them as his parents, they think of him as their kid. Deal with it, please.

in an environment that has always been home-base for AVALANCHE,

Now this, this is 100% bullshit. The original 7th Heaven, the one in Midgar's Sector 7 slums, that was home-base for AVALANCHE for some time before the plate fell. This is not the same place. This is the new 7th Heaven in Edge. AVALANCHE, as it was, doesn't even exist anymore. Tifa and Cloud are the only members of the old gang who actually live there. It has not always been home-base for AVALANCHE, and it isn't home-base in the present. So no, I'll have none of that.

in addition to raising another child that was brought to one of them by a dead lady, paints a much different picture than Cloti's want it to paint.

Cloud believes a dead lady brought the kid to him to raise. The dead lady, when she turned up, had nothing to say on the matter. Lifestream White didn't mention her doing anything of the sort. In fact, the text reads to me as Cloud thinking he needs to raise the kid out of penance for failing to keep Aerith alive. Like most of the "romance" you lot like to see post-stabbity-Aerith-death, its actually a guilt thing. One which Tifa willing shares in, in such a way as to correct Cloud's guilt assumption. We all know if Aerith DID guide Denzel and Cloud together, it wasn't to make him atone. It wasn't to posthumously give him a child, to raise as if it were his and her own. It was because the kid and the big dope needed each other. Tifa knows it too, hence saying that (assuming Aerith was involved, which I don't deny is possible), she brought Denzel to "us." That is, Cloud and Tifa.

So... I'm seeing the same picture I thought I did before. Which isn't surprising, its nor a freaking Rorschach blot. Its more like a paint by numbers set. You follow the directions, put the colors in the spot with the corresponding numbers, you get a coherent picture. You paint everything pink by just slapping the paper/canvas/whatever with a paint-drenched roller until its been coated... and you can see whatever you wanna see in it

Ok seriously, why did I just type all that out? Guys, I have a problem, halp.

 

[OniRaitei]

How are the two statements mutually exclusive?

Cloud can love both Aerith and Tifa and Tifa can still wish she had a relationship with Cloud that was more similar to his relationship with Aerith.

So what you're saying is that Tifa wishes she were dead?

 

[Strangelove]

> i cannot legally married the person i love because i am gay (that will change but in many places it is still true)
> i can't biologically have children with that partner because they would be the same sex (barring cases like transmen or surrogates/adoption)
> not that i want kids at this moment
> i would feel apprehensive about moving in with someone because i like my own space

> i will never have a proper relationship that matters

By placing the standards of 'married, with kids biologically theirs, in their own home' for Cloud and Tifa to count as a couple, you are diminishing other families who don't follow that model. You can say you aren't, but you are. Because you've placed more value on that specific type of family than any other. Ones who aren't married, ones who can't have kids or don't want to have ones of their own, people who can't afford their own house (this is a world where the house they are living in was built from scrap pulled from the rubble of Midgar), people who want to live with others, cultures where it's commonplace for families to live together in groups, people who don't want to get married.

But I guess a relationship with a ghost is totes legit.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

So what you're saying is that Tifa wishes she were dead?

How are any of us supposed to follow that up? Close this one on up, folks.

 

[jazzflower92]

How are any of us supposed to follow that up? Close this one on up, folks.

Does anyone want to make a thread about non canon and crack pairings?

 

[Shademp]

As a person who is, most of the time, not fully immersed in this debate I do get periods of doubt. "Maybe TLS is looking too deep into stuff", "Maybe this quote shouldn't be taken a certain way" etc.

But then I see hito make clear the nuances of important Japanese quotes. I become reminded by him, Tres and other people of the relevant quotes which settle who Cloud has paired up with: Tifa. The only reason I doubt is that my disinterest in the LTD makes me forget about the existence and true meaning of certain quotes.

If it wasn't for those few, important statements in complementary material I would have no idea who Cloud is more romantically involved with, because I'm the type of guy who needs concrete confirmation of romance in stories, either via confessions or displays of physical intimacy. The scenes between Cloud, Aerith and Tifa are just too vaguely written for me to draw any conclusions.

But the research and conclusions done by the FFVII scholars of TLS are reasonable. Only two scenarios are at this point possible:
1) Cloud loves Tifa romantically and only Tifa
2) Cloud loves Tifa romantically AND has romantic feelings for Aerith as well

The second scenario is not impossible but so far the story and guide books haven't made it clear that Cloud's feelings for Aerith are that of romance. Cloud's potential romantic feelings for Aerith are headcanon, not canon, until otherwise stated in the story or by the writers.

In other words, BlankBeat...

 

[Ryushikaze]

"SHE. CARRIES. COMPLEX. FEELINGS. AS. A. WOMAN. TOWARD. AERITH. WHO. HAD. BUILT. UP. A. SPECIAL. BOND. WITH. CLOUD. THAT. WAS. DIFFERENT. FROM. TIFA'S."

What is this "SPECIAL BOND" Cloud and Aerith have? What is so different about Cloud and Aerith's bond in comparison to Cloud and Tifa's bond?

THEIR BOND IS FRIENDSHIP.
IT IS DIFFERENT IN THAT IT IS NOT A ROMANTIC BOND BASED ON YEARS OF KNOWING EACH OTHER, BUT A FILLIAL BOND THAT FORMED QUICKLY.
IT IS ALSO DIFFERENT IN THAT IT IS NOT A BOND THAT RESULTED IN A MUTUAL RELATIONSHIP OF CARING FOR EACH OTHER, FOSTERING A FRIEND'S CHILD, AND ADOPTING ONE OF THEIR OWN.

THIS HAS BEEN ALLCAPS THEATER, SINCE BLANKBEAT APPARENTLY NEEDS THINGS SHOUTED AT HIM REPEATEDLY FOR THINGS TO SINK IN.

THANK YOU.

 

[Knuxson]

Cloud only wanted to start taking care of someone because he thought Aerith was involved. Tifa is pissed that Cloud only wanted to take care of someone else AFTER he thought Aerith was somehow involved.

Wait, she was pissed? I thought her reaction when Cloud told her that he thinks Aerith brought Denzel to him was to say, "No, she brought him to us." Then Cloud smiles. She sounds pretty okay with it to me.

Also, if Cloud and Tifa are not in a relationship in AC, then why, WHY, did the writers decide to make them live together and call themselves a family? If the intention wasn't that they were a couple, then were the writers intentionally messing with the fans? Did they just want to create confusion? I would think that if the writers did not intend for Cloud and Tifa to be together, they would have just created a different scenario. They could have given Cloud his own flat in Edge or something. Instead, they put Tifa and Cloud in the same house as surrogate mother and father to two kids and had them constantly refer to themselves as family. I get that it is conceivable that this setup might involve a surrogate mother and father who are not romantically involved. But for it to be two people who have indeed expressed love for each other...

I am not sure why I wrote this, as it is fairly futile at this point, but oh well.

 

[Dashell]

What is this "SPECIAL BOND" Cloud and Aerith have? What is so different about Cloud and Aerith's bond in comparison to Cloud and Tifa's bond?

The fact that she became close to Cloud so easily and really opened up to her when Tifa had a hard time reading Cloud?

IT doesn't have to be romantic

Wait, she was pissed? I thought her reaction when Cloud told her that he thinks Aerith brought Denzel to him was to say, "No, she brought him to us." Then Cloud smiles. She sounds pretty okay with it to me.

Tifa: Go ahead and tell me, I won't get angry
Cloud: I feel like Aerith brought Denzel to me
Tifa: NO! SHE BROUGHT DENZEL TO OUR HOME YOU FUCKING IDIOT!
Cloud: *Imma give her a piece of my mind right now*
Tifa:


or something

 

[Danseru-kun]

Cloud only wanted to start taking care of someone because he thought Aerith was involved. Tifa is pissed that Cloud only wanted to take care of someone else AFTER he thought Aerith was somehow involved.

Shortly after that, Cloud brought Denzel back with him. He was a boy who had used Cloud’s mobile phone that he left with his bike to ring the bar. Picking up the phone, Tifa was worried about what happened to Cloud at first, but soon she realized that there was something wrong with the boy. Cloud had picked up the phone when she couldn’t hear the boy’s voice anymore on the other end. Tifa tried to ask how he was, but then Cloud spoke awkwardly.
“What’s wrong? Is the boy ok?”
“Nah, he seems to be in pain.”
“If so, why don’t you bring him back with you?” (Tifa)

“It looks like he has Geostigma.”
Tifa couldn’t reply to what Cloud said right away. Geostigma was a disease that spread through out the world since the day the Lifestream halted Meteor. It’s cure hadn’t been found yet. The patients also vary –some would look healthy so no one would suspect that they were sick and some died right after they contracted the disease. Then, the most important point for Tifa was that there was a rumor that Geostigma was transmittable. It could infect someone in the family. Based on Tifa’s experience she believed that it would not be transmittable or else many healthy people in the world would have died already, though she still felt uncomfortable. Moreover, the rumor was persistent no matter what the truth was; consequently it might affect the image of the bar. However, she already said to bring him over, she couldn’t go back on her word because of Geostigma.
“I heard Geostigma wasn’t contagious.”
Cloud said as if he presumed her hesitation. Then, she realized that Cloud wanted to bring this child home.
“Yeah, bring him with you.”
“I’ll bring him through the back door. Is there anyone that can look after Marlene?”
“Yeah.”

Tifa is so pissed, she told Cloud to bring the child over before he even mentioned it.

“Aerith didn’t bring Denzel to you.”
“Ahh, I only thought that…..”
“I didn’t mean it that way.”
“Aerith brought Denzel to our home.”
Cloud gazed at Tifa and finally smiled.

Tifa is so pissed that Cloud smiled afterwards. Cloud loves being an asshole to Tifa and only cares if it involves Aerith.

 

[Dashell]

I wanna know why on EARTH Cloud would just leave a wounded child lying by his bike just because he didn't think Aerith brought him to her...


fuck this guy is just a massive DICK!


Do you think he like... would see wounded children all the time and go up to them and be like, "Well I'd help you but... Aerith clearly didn't bring you to me." and then leave?

 

[BlankBeat]

THEIR BOND IS FRIENDSHIP.
IT IS DIFFERENT IN THAT IT IS NOT A ROMANTIC BOND BASED ON YEARS OF KNOWING EACH OTHER, BUT A FILLIAL BOND THAT FORMED QUICKLY.
IT IS ALSO DIFFERENT IN THAT IT IS NOT A BOND THAT RESULTED IN A MUTUAL RELATIONSHIP OF CARING FOR EACH OTHER, FOSTERING A FRIEND'S CHILD, AND ADOPTING ONE OF THEIR OWN.

THIS HAS BEEN ALLCAPS THEATER, SINCE BLANKBEAT APPARENTLY NEEDS THINGS SHOUTED AT HIM REPEATEDLY FOR THINGS TO SINK IN.

THANK YOU.

1. The "wavers" quote by itself proves that Cloud and Aerith had a special bond that went beyond a friendship.

2. SE views Cloud and Aerith as more than just friends as evidenced by the FFIX cameo and the Emperor/Empress dedication. Therefore, the "special bond" cannot just be friendship.

3. Why would SE point out that Aerith's love rival (Tifa) was jealous over this "special bond" that Cloud and Aerith had?

It seems even Tifa see's what Cloti's deny -- Cloud likes Aerith on a romantic level.

4. When you consider Cloud being physically attracted to Aerith, being triggered into a romantic flashback after meeting Aerith, agreeing to be Aerith's bodyguard for the price of a date, telling Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him, flirting with Aerith in-front of Tifa, being willing to risk his life to save Aerith after just meeting her, going on a date with Aerith, etc., it is clear that Cloud and Aerith's special bond was more than just friendship.

--------------------

You don't have to deny it or intentionally diminish it, but you're ignoring the way in which the existence of non-traditional families can invalidate part of what you try to claim concerning the 7th Heaven Family. Said ignoring, incidentally, CAN make it seem as if you're diminishing non-traditional families.

And I just told you that I'm not diminishing non-traditional families.

He's not "away on missions." He doesn't LIVE there. 7th Heaven is not Barret's home.

What is he away doing, then? Keep in mind Barret helped build the Seventh Heaven they are currently living in.

Also, Marlene is his kid, yes, but this does not change the fact that Cloud and Tifa are currently raising her and she is a member of THEIR family.

Wrong. Marlene invites Cloud into *HER* family. Her family consists of Barret. In fact, Barret was apart of creating this family from the beginning.

DENZEL, on the other hand, is JUST Cloud and Tifa's. He thinks of them as his parents, they think of him as their kid. Deal with it, please.

How Denzel views Cloud and Tifa is irrelevant towards how Cloud and Tifa view each other.

This is the new 7th Heaven in Edge. AVALANCHE, as it was, doesn't even exist anymore. Tifa and Cloud are the only members of the old gang who actually live there. It has not always been home-base for AVALANCHE, and it isn't home-base in the present. So no, I'll have none of that.

The Seventh Heaven in Edge was created and built with the help of Barret.

Think of it this way: pretty much every character went back to where we first were introduced to them at the beginning of the game. It only makes sense that Barret, Tifa, Marlene, and Cloud would travel/live together in Seventh Heaven.

Cloud believes a dead lady brought the kid to him to raise. The dead lady, when she turned up, had nothing to say on the matter. Lifestream White didn't mention her doing anything of the sort. In fact, the text reads to me as Cloud thinking he needs to raise the kid out of penance for failing to keep Aerith alive. Like most of the "romance" you lot like to see post-stabbity-Aerith-death, its actually a guilt thing. One which Tifa willing shares in, in such a way as to correct Cloud's guilt assumption. We all know if Aerith DID guide Denzel and Cloud together, it wasn't to make him atone. It wasn't to posthumously give him a child, to raise as if it were his and her own. It was because the kid and the big dope needed each other. Tifa knows it too, hence saying that (assuming Aerith was involved, which I don't deny is possible), she brought Denzel to "us." That is, Cloud and Tifa.

Funny how Cloud only starts to care about the family again when he thinks Aerith brought him Denzel.

 

[BlankBeat]

I wanna know why on EARTH Cloud would just leave a wounded child lying by his bike just because he didn't think Aerith brought him to her...


fuck this guy is just a massive DICK!


Do you think he like... would see wounded children all the time and go up to them and be like, "Well I'd help you but... Aerith clearly didn't bring you to me." and then leave?

How many wounded children were all around Cloud considering the state of the world at that time? It is clear that Aerith had a lot to do with Cloud deciding to help Denzel in particular.

 

[Dashell]

How many wounded children were all around Cloud considering the state of the world at that time? It is clear that Aerith had a lot to do with Cloud deciding to help Denzel in particular.

No

 

[BlankBeat]

> i cannot legally married the person i love because i am gay (that will change but in many places it is still true)
> i can't biologically have children with that partner because they would be the same sex (barring cases like transmen or surrogates/adoption)
> not that i want kids at this moment
> i would feel apprehensive about moving in with someone because i like my own space

> i will never have a proper relationship that matters

By placing the standards of 'married, with kids biologically theirs, in their own home' for Cloud and Tifa to count as a couple, you are diminishing other families who don't follow that model. You can say you aren't, but you are. Because you've placed more value on that specific type of family than any other. Ones who aren't married, ones who can't have kids or don't want to have ones of their own, people who can't afford their own house (this is a world where the house they are living in was built from scrap pulled from the rubble of Midgar), people who want to live with others, cultures where it's commonplace for families to live together in groups, people who don't want to get married.

But I guess a relationship with a ghost is totes legit.

No, what I'm saying is that the perception that Cloti's give in regards to the family that Cloud and Tifa have created together is wrong.

By saying things like, "Cloud and Tifa live together and are raising children together" ignores WHERE they are living and WHICH children they are raising. I'm simply trying to provide context because when you consider WHERE they are living and WHICH children they are raising, it is clear that none of those two things were decided or came from a romantic place. They came from circumstances outside of their control.

 

[I Am Not Me]

I came around to see if my questions about Dissidia Duodecim were addressed and I found this:

How many wounded children were all around Cloud considering the state of the world at that time? It is clear that Aerith had a lot to do with Cloud deciding to help Denzel in particular.

(Flashback. Denzel, carrying a metal ‘spear’, wanders through the debris of the slums, presumably in Sector Five, as he’s near the church. (In “The Case of Denzel” we’re told that he’s hunting rats to eat, which he thinks will kill him, since his former friend Rix told him they were contaminated by pollution from the plate.) The ruined plate is above him. He puts his hand to his head, and it comes away stained with geostigma. He notices the church and goes towards it, but stops when he sees Fenrir and Cloud’s phone. He takes the phone and dials four numbers.
Automated voice: Your call to Sector 7 cannot be completed at this time. Your call to Sector 7 cannot be completed at this time.
(The camera pans down from the sky and the number 7 mako reactor to the rubble of Sector 7. A large sign amidst the rubble says “Shin-Ra Electric Power Company Company House&#8221
Automated voice: Your call to Sector 7 cannot be completed at this time.
(The camera pans across two shoes – one man’s and one woman’s – before zooming in on a photo of Denzel with his parents. The glass of the frame is shattered. It’s the same photo as the one beside Denzel’s bed at the 7th Heaven.)
Automated voice: Your call to Sector 7 cannot be completed at this time. Your call to Sector 7 cannot be completed at this time.
(Denzel ends the call and makes to throw the phone away, but reconsiders when the phone beeps with a missed call message. When Denzel sees the call is from “7th Heaven” he scrolls though lots of 7th Heaven missed calls, and then accidentally calls the number. When he sees that the phone is calling “7th Heaven”, he looks hopeful, as though he thinks it might be where his parents are.)
Tifa (on phone): Cloud, what a surprise. You never call. Is something wrong?
Denzel: Uh – ah –
Tifa: Cloud?
Denzel: No, ma’am.
Tifa: Well, who, then? Why do you have Cloud’s phone?
Denzel: I don’t know.
Tifa: Who is this?
Denzel: I don’t know. Please… I don’t know what to do. I can’t do this. (Denzel cries and drops the ‘spear’.)
Tifa: Hey, are you crying?
Denzel: Argh! Ah! (Falls to the ground, having an attack of geostigma.)
Tifa: (Alarmed) Hello? Are you okay?! Cloud, if you’re there, pick up!”
(Denzel blacks out.)
Cloud’s voice: Hey! (Shot of Cloud approaching from Denzel’s fallen POV.) You okay?
(End of flashback. Cut to Denzel back in the 7th Heaven. He hears what he thinks is Cloud’s bike in the distance, smiles, and rushes outside. Yazoo rides past dangerously fast, scattering pedestrians. He stops when he sees Denzel, and looks back at him with a creepy smile.)

Is it just me or is Aerith nowhere to be found here?

 

[Morana]

I

Is it just me or is Aerith nowhere to be found here?

Don't be silly. Aerith is everywhere.

 

[BlankBeat]

“Hey, do you remember what you said when you brought Denzel here?”

“What did I say?”

“A lot of things. Even if I opposed it, you would bring him back with you. I could just feel it.”

“That…”

Cloud was making a face like a kid who thought he would get scolded.

“Tell me. I’ll decide whether I’m angry or not after I listen.”

Cloud nodded and continued.

“Denzel had collapsed in front of Aerith’s church. That’s why I thought Aerith lead him to me.”

Saying all that in one breath, Cloud looked away.

“You went to the church.”

“I didn’t intend to hide it from you.”

“You did hide it.”

“I’m sorry.” -CoT

Why is Tifa so concerned that Cloud was visiting Aerith's Church before being diagnosed with Geostigma? Answer: Because her "complex" feelings toward Aerith continue to this very day, according to SE. These "complex feelings" were noted in a passage outlining Tifa's jealously towards Cloud and Aerith's relationship. Tifa see's exactly what us Clerith's see -- Cloud's romantic attraction to Aerith.

“I’m not saying you couldn’t go. But next time, I’ll go with you.”

“I understand.”

“And you’re wrong, Cloud.”

Cloud was perplexed as he looked at Tifa.

“Aerith didn’t bring Denzel to you.”

“Ahh, I only thought that…..”

“I didn’t mean it that way.”

“Aerith brought Denzel to our home.”

Cloud gazed at Tifa and finally smiled.

**

Days after having that conversation, Cloud left. Tifa wondered if that smile he showed her was an illusion. After kissing the sleeping children on the face she went into Cloud’s office. She brushed away the dust on the family photo they had taken and then tried calling him. After several rings the messaging service took over. -CoT

Tifa seems insistent on inserting herself in Cloud and Aerith's relationship. Just as Cloud says that HE can meet Aerith in the Promised Land, Cloud visits Aerith's Church alone, without Tifa.

Ironically, Tifa tries to insert herself in the middle of Cloud and Aerith's relationship in both scenes. Tifa tries to invite herself to go with Cloud to the Promised Land to meet Aerith, and she tries to invite herself to go with Cloud to visit Aerith's Church. But it is clear that Cloud wants to do neither of these things with Tifa. No wonder Tifa continues to be jealous of Cloud's feelings toward Aerith.

 

[Strangelove]

No, what I'm saying is that the perception that Cloti's give in regards to the family that Cloud and Tifa have created together is wrong.

By saying things like, "Cloud and Tifa live together and are raising children together" ignores WHERE they are living and WHICH children they are raising. I'm simply trying to provide context because when you consider WHERE they are living and WHICH children they are raising, it is clear that none of those two things were decided or came from a romantic place. They came from circumstances outside of their control.

This is a fictional world. There was nothing out of the creators' control. If they wanted, Cloud could have gone anywhere. Could have lived anywhere. He could have been the one to wander around like Vincent or go on a journey like Barret (who has more of a reason to stay as he has a daughter).

What was the point, the big picture, behind making Cloud and Tifa live together (and excluding Barret soon after it started by sending him away)? Did they write a novel and make a film to show people how incompatible they are? (Which apparently some people think is the point of Cloud and Tifa's stories.)

Your point is still dismissive of other types of family, though.

Do you ever dismiss C/A evidence, or do you save that for C/T things?

 

[BlankBeat]

This is a fictional world. There was nothing out of the creators' control. If they wanted, Cloud could have gone anywhere. Could have lived anywhere. He could have been the one to wander around like Vincent or go on a journey like Barret (who has more of a reason to stay as he has a daughter).

What was the point, the big picture, behind making Cloud and Tifa live together (and excluding Barret soon after it started by sending him away)? Did they write a novel and make a film to show people how incompatible they are? (Which apparently some people think is the point of Cloud and Tifa's stories.)

Your point is still dismissive of other types of family, though.

Do you ever dismiss C/A evidence, or do you save that for C/T things?

Circumstances that had nothing to do with romance led to the formation of their family and their living arrangements. That is the point I'm trying to make when I bring up the fact that Seventh Heaven has always been home base for AVALANCHE, the fact that Cloud has a separate room with a bed in it, the fact that Marlene is Barret's daughter, the fact that Cloud believes Aerith brought Denzel to him, and the fact that how Denzel views Cloud and Tifa has no relevance toward how they view each other.

(Some) Cloti's make it seem as though romantic feelings are what led to this families formation and the living arrangements. But when you look at the family and the fact that Barret and Barret's daughter are apart of it, and when you look at the fact that Seventh Heaven was re-built with the help of Barret, and that this new family was formed with Barret, and that Cloud has a room with a bed in it, it becomes clear that neither of these things (raising children/living arrangements) provide proof of Cloud and Tifa's romantic relationship.

 

[Octo]

I just realised I left my laptop on standby all night.....wow things have moved fast.

So, from what I can gather. Cloud/Any other character you chose is canon, just because he doesn't express his feelings doesn't mean he doesn't have them. Right? Well thats a relief. I no longer have to hide my Cloud/Chocobo sage feelings!

 

[Junko Enoshima]

Ironically, Tifa tries to insert herself in the middle of Cloud and Aerith's relationship in both scenes. Tifa tries to invite herself to go with Cloud to the Promised Land to meet Aerith, and she tries to invite herself to go with Cloud to visit Aerith's Church. But it is clear that Cloud wants to do neither of these things with Tifa. No wonder Tifa continues to be jealous of Cloud's feelings toward Aerith.

I do agree with your post but this is the only part I might disagree with. I really adore Tifa and Aerith as characters and I really don't think Tifa is the type to insert herself into situations. It's my feeling that Tifa took a step back and was humble about her feelings for Cloud when Aerith was around. She let Cloud come to his own conclusions and even told Aerith that her feelings for Cloud were "nothing" so that Aerith didn't get the wrong impression. I think Tifa knew right away that Aerith and Cloud had a connection and she was willing to step aside. My point is that I don't think Tifa inserted herself into Cloud's life or inbetween their relationship because that type of jealousy is to the point of a stalker or someone desperate which I don't think Tifa is. I think that Tifa is just concerned and trying to be uplifting and while she still is a bit jealous she's just trying to do what is best and she wants to show she wants to be supportive of him in my opinion as a friend. I think Cloud is a bit selfish because he thinks Aerith is doing it all for him but I think the reality is that Aerith is not only doing things for him but for her other friends too. Cloud did hide the fact he went to the church from Tifa and Denzel was brought to Cloud by Aerith all true. But I think Tifa does want to be close to Aerith too. I think they have a real friendship. So I think she wants to go to the "Promised Land" too and meet Aerith. I think she wants to take care of the child that Aerith brought as well. I think she is just thinking that Aerith is looking out for them not that she is trying to butt into the relationship. In my opinion Tifa has already come to terms that Cloud loves Aerith and I think she knows he's lingering on her which is why she gets jealous and why Cloud hides things from her sometimes but I would never believe she is a self inserter just because it's not her personality.

 

[I Am Not Me]

“Hey, do you remember what you said when you brought Denzel here?”

“What did I say?”

“A lot of things. Even if I opposed it, you would bring him back with you. I could just feel it.”

“That…”

Cloud was making a face like a kid who thought he would get scolded.

“Tell me. I’ll decide whether I’m angry or not after I listen.”

Cloud nodded and continued.

“Denzel had collapsed in front of Aerith’s church. That’s why I thought Aerith lead him to me.”

I forgot this part, thanks for that.

What this doesn't prove is Aerith being the reason that Cloud took him home. He thought Aerith lead Denzel to him because he found Denzel in front of the church. This is supposed to mean what exactly? That Cloud thought the spirit of his dead friend led him to a boy with a fatal illness? By the way, this also doesn't prove that Cloud loves Aerith.

I can only imagine what Cloud's train of thought was here:

Denzel: *passes out in front of Cloud*
Cloud: HEY, are you alright? *runs towards Denzel*
Denzel: ...
Cloud: *thinks* Oh, hey, this kid is sick and injured.
Cloud: *stares at Denzel*
Cloud: What should I do?
Cloud: Maybe I should just leave him here.
Cloud: *gets up to leave*
Aerith's voice: Cloud! Maybe you should take him to a hospital or something at least!
Cloud: You're definitely right, Aerith! I should take him home to Tifa and raise him with her! Thanks, babe. xoxo
Aerith: ...

I like to think that maybe, just maybe, it alarmed Cloud that a boy passed out right in front of him. That maybe his first thought was to save this boy from dying out there. Nothing to do with romance, just the fact that Denzel is sick, Cloud is a good guy, and he wants to take care of him.

Maybe Cloud also thought Aerith led him to Denzel so that Cloud can save him. Which he completely neglected to do in Advent Children and opted to leave him dying with Tifa so he can focus on his sins and wanking by himself in Aerith's church. True love.

And, lastly:

“Aerith didn’t bring Denzel to you.”
“Ahh, I only thought that…..”
“I didn’t mean it that way.”
“Aerith brought Denzel to our home.”
Cloud gazed at Tifa and finally smiled.

Cloud disagrees so much with Tifa that all he could do was smile.

Ironically, Tifa tries to insert herself in the middle of Cloud and Aerith's relationship in both scenes. Tifa tries to invite herself to go with Cloud to the Promised Land to meet Aerith, and she tries to invite herself to go with Cloud to visit Aerith's Church. But it is clear that Cloud wants to do neither of these things with Tifa. No wonder Tifa continues to be jealous of Cloud's feelings toward Aerith.

Ironically, your (and others') arguments always seem to try to insert Aerith between Cloud and Tifa and everywhere else she's not supposed to be in.

Tifa asks Cloud if he loves her -> Cloud totally loves Aerith!
Cloud and Tifa has a LAHW scene -> Cloud totally loves Aerith!
Cloud and Tifa has a HAHW scene -> Cloud totally still loves Aerith!
Cloud and Tifa are described as raising children together -> Cloud is raising Denzel because he totally loves Aerith!
Tifa is described as a koibito -> Aerith called Cloud her koibito!
Cloud and Tifa are childhood friends -> the charts say Cloud is Aerith's bodyguard!
Cloud and Tifa have a special report in Dissidia -> Tifa acts like Aerith!
Advent Children is about the three little Sephiroths and Cloud -> Advent Children is totally about Cloud and Aerith's romantic relationship after death!
Final Fantasy VII isn't about romance -> Cloud and Aerith love each other forever!

I could go on and on, but I cba to check back on posts. I also randomly remembered that Dissidia one from way before. That wasn't you, BB, in case you start pointing your "you're a mean Cloti!" finger.




OOPS! I said I wouldn't respond anymore. Sorry, guys, I have failed you. I have failed to fulfill my promise. Will my sin ever be forgiven?