The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Geostigma]

Circumstances that had nothing to do with romance led to the formation of their family and their living arrangements. That is the point I'm trying to make when I bring up the fact that Seventh Heaven has always been home base for AVALANCHE, the fact that Cloud has a separate room with a bed in it, the fact that Marlene is Barret's daughter, the fact that Cloud believes Aerith brought Denzel to him, and the fact that how Denzel views Cloud and Tifa has no relevance toward how they view each other.

(Some) Cloti's make it seem as though romantic feelings are what led to this families formation and the living arrangements. But when you look at the family and the fact that Barret and Barret's daughter are apart of it, and when you look at the fact that Seventh Heaven was re-built with the help of Barret, and that this new family was formed with Barret, and that Cloud has a room with a bed in it, it becomes clear that neither of these things (raising children/living arrangements) provide proof of Cloud and Tifa's romantic relationship.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Cloud (shortly after declaring mutual feelings with Tifa and probably having sex with her): "I know my life can succeed this time because I have you."
Tifa: "You've always had me."
Cloud: "In a different way."
Tifa: "Oh, Cloud. Do you want to build a house together? And maybe someday ... kids?"
Cloud: "Absolutely. But, uh, listen, there's this other chick back in the Lifestream, and it's kinda serious, so I'm going to need a bed in a separate room. I mean, we can still mess around or whatever, but when she comes over and stuff, I'm going to need my own pad. Keep up appearances and all. You understand."
Tifa (eyes beaming): "Of course, Cloud."
Cloud: "And I want to customize a bike, so I need you to make a certificate for a lifetime of free meals I can give to a mechanic. You'll be doing the cooking, of course. No big deal, right?"
Tifa: "Oh, Cloud, anything. Now give me a black eye and a broken collar bone."
Cloud: "You got it, babe."

::Cloud proceeds to beat the shit out of Tifa on the deck of the Highwind while she moans euphorically and the others look on affectionately::

 

[Dashell]

Doesn't that quote in the Crisis Core Ulimania say they lived together due to the feelings they shared?

 

[I Am Not Me]

Cloud (shortly after declaring mutual feelings with Tifa and probably having sex with her): "I know my life can succeed this time because I have you."
Tifa: "You've always had me."
Cloud: "In a different way."
Tifa: "Oh, Cloud. Do you want to build a house together? And maybe someday ... kids?"
Cloud: "Absolutely. But, uh, listen, there's this other chick back in the Lifestream, and it's kinda serious, so I'm going to need a bed in a separate room. I mean, we can still mess around or whatever, but when she comes over and stuff, I'm going to need my own pad. Keep up appearances and all. You understand."
Tifa (eyes beaming): "Of course, Cloud."
Cloud: "And I want to customize a bike, so I need you to make a certificate for a lifetime of free meals I can give to a mechanic. You'll be doing the cooking, of course. No big deal, right?"
Tifa: "Oh, Cloud, anything. Now give me a black eye and a broken collar bone."
Cloud: "You got it, babe."

::Cloud proceeds to beat the shit out of Tifa on the deck of the Highwind while she moans euphorically and the others look on affectionately::

Just when you think Cloud couldn't get any hotter.

 

[Strangelove]

I actually know where you can find the answer to why Cloud brought Denzel back to take care of.

It's right in the novel that introduced Denzel. He can't get back lives that are lost, but he might be able to save one that's in danger now. There's the reason he is concerned about the child he believed Aerith brought to him.

Literally in black and white, right on the page.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

And I just told you that I'm not diminishing non-traditional families.

And hito was kind enough to explain from his perspective how you're doing exactly fucking that, even if you don't see it. Look harder. See what's really there, even if you don't like it.

What is he away doing, then? Keep in mind Barret helped build the Seventh Heaven they are currently living in.

He's atoning. Hid hands are too bloody to carry Marlene, remember? Sure, part of the reasoning for Marlene staying at 7th Heaven has to do with her safety, Barret did choose to atone via hunting for energy sources and fighting dangerous monsters as needed. But the largest part of it? He believes his kid is better off being raised by Cloud and Tifa, at least until he's done.

Also... who the fuck cares who built the bar? I helped build my mother's home, I don't live there. This has nothing to do with anything. Barret LEFT. Again I say, deal with it please.

Wrong.

Oh please tell me you were looking in a mirror when you said that.

Marlene invites Cloud into *HER* family. Her family consists of Barret. In fact, Barret was apart of creating this family from the beginning.

"I'll be a good child of this family!" <---Said by Marlene to her father as he leaves. THIS family. Of which Barret IS NOT A MEMBER. Marlene herself shows the distinction here, and yet you choose to focus on the amusing bit with her putting Cloud in the family as if its serious. I'd be disappoint, but I'm quite used to you seeing what you want, where you want to see it, and nothing else at all ever.

How Denzel views Cloud and Tifa is irrelevant towards how Cloud and Tifa view each other.

If I granted you that this is irrelevant, you've gotta grant that most of what you prattle on about in here is similarly irrelevant. Also, way to ignore the rest of what I said there regarding their feelings.

The Seventh Heaven in Edge was created and built with the help of Barret.

Who doesn't live there and isn't part of the core 7th Heaven Family. It matters not who's idea the bar was, or who did the building. Who's irrelevant now?

Think of it this way: pretty much every character went back to where we first were introduced to them at the beginning of the game. It only makes sense that Barret, Tifa, Marlene, and Cloud would travel/live together in Seventh Heaven.

No, it doesn't. Barret left on a journey to atone for his past via dangerous exploits while searching for oil and coal and so on. HE DOESN'T LIVE WITH CLOUD AND TIFA. He is not part of this family. Open your eyes and allow yourself to get the point.

Funny how Cloud only starts to care about the family again when he thinks Aerith brought him Denzel.

And again we see, Clerith!Cloud is a complete cockhole. If this turned out to be canon thanks to some bizarre creator mindfuck, then I'm rooting for Sephiroth to gut him the next time he resurrects. Let Tifa take over the role of main hero and move on from that jerkass forever.

Sadly, you are every bit as wrong as usual, so I have little hope for a "Tifa rocks out and saves the world with her bare hands" scenario.

 

[Strangelove]

marlene is the matriarch of this family of friends

the head bitch in charge, the decision maker

all you other bitches listen up

ain't no one getting into this family until lil' marl says so

 

[I Am Not Me]

Funny how Cloud only starts to care about the family again when he thinks Aerith brought him Denzel. ​

And again we see, Clerith!Cloud is a complete cockhole. If this turned out to be canon thanks to some bizarre creator mindfuck, then I'm rooting for Sephiroth to gut him the next time he resurrects. Let Tifa take over the role of main hero and move on from that jerkass forever.

At least Clack!Cloud is the Cloud who cares about his family, about Aerith, Zack, Tifa, Denzel, Marlene, and many more. Clack!Cloud who feels guilt over things he wasn't even in control of. Clack!Cloud who was so happy with his family that he ran away due to fear of losing that happiness. Clack!Cloud who holds both Aerith and Zack to his heart and considers both important to him. Clack!Cloud who doesn't have a VIP list of people he cares about. Clack!Cloud who says there is nothing he doesn't cherish.





Oh, wait, that's actually canon!Cloud.

Canon!Cloud is a nice guy. Please don't butcher canon!Cloud for Clerith. Even I wouldn't want a Cloud like that near my Aerith, why would you?

 

[Strangelove]

actually, most of the characters don't return to where they were introduced at all

- cloud: midgar/edge
- barret: midgar/edge then shortly after leaves
- tifa: midgar/edge
- aerith: midgar/she dead
- red: midgar/cosmo canyon before he leaves
- cait sith: gold saucer/wherever reeve ends up
- cid: rocket town/rocket town
- yuffie: variable location/wutai
- vincent: nibelheim/wherever the story needs him to go

9 characters, and only 4 return to 'where they were introduced' (3 if you don't count barret who left that place).

a more accurate description would be that they returned to their homes. for vincent that's a problem, we don't know his home. reeve seems to spend lots of time travelling around with wro business. red goes home but leaves again. barret isn't super anxious to go back to his hometown, and ditto for cloud and tifa. they don't really have a 'home', they just settle in midgar.

do you think about these things before you write them down and copypasta them a bunch of times? because that took seconds to recall where each character appears first and where they end up before ac. and your 'pretty much every character' turns out to be not even half.

instead of rewriting dialogue and shit, take the time to make sure what you're saying (over and over again) is actually right. less people dismiss your entire posts as biased.

 

[Knuxson]

Why is Tifa so concerned that Cloud was visiting Aerith's Church before being diagnosed with Geostigma? Answer: Because her "complex" feelings toward Aerith continue to this very day, according to SE. These "complex feelings" were noted in a passage outlining Tifa's jealously towards Cloud and Aerith's relationship. Tifa see's exactly what us Clerith's see -- Cloud's romantic attraction to Aerith.

In my opinion Tifa has already come to terms that Cloud loves Aerith and I think she knows he's lingering on her which is why she gets jealous and why Cloud hides things from her sometimes but I would never believe she is a self inserter just because it's not her personality.

I will say it again: Cloud does not go to the church because he is still in love with Aerith. He goes because he feels extremely guilty over letting her die. It is the same with Zack. Cloud visits the spot where Zack died frequently too. He was present for both Zack and Aerith's deaths, but, due to being messed up by Hojo, he was unable to prevent either of them from dying. This is the theme for Cloud in AC. Guilt and accepting that there was really nothing he could have done and moving on. To stop blaming himself. You are making it into something it is not.

He doesn't tell Tifa about going to the church because he has not yet told her why he is so troubled. He doesn't know HOW to tell her. He finally does tell her in AC when they wake up in Marlene and Denzel's room. Once he does, she calls him on his BS and not long after he starts to come around, even before he is cured of geostigma.

Cloud never expresses he loves Aerith, he expresses that he blames himself for her death, as well as Zack's. Guilt is the theme that SE uses, not everlasting love. Cloud isn't sitting at the church thinking about how he wishes Aerith was alive so that he could be with her. He is there thinking he was too weak to save her, so how can he protect his family now? What if something happens to them too? Tifa sees this when Cloud is reluctant to go to the Ancient City and she says that she knows Cloud is scared of something happening that can't un-happen.

If you can't understand basic themes and symbolism (such as Aerith and Zack walking out of the church at the end) of an artistic work, then it's no wonder this whole conversation is going nowhere.

 

[Morana]

At least Clack!Cloud is the Cloud who cares about his family, about Aerith, Zack, Tifa, Denzel, Marlene, and many more. Clack!Cloud who feels guilt over things he wasn't even in control of. Clack!Cloud who was so happy with his family that he ran away due to fear of losing that happiness. Clack!Cloud who holds both Aerith and Zack to his heart and considers both important to him. Clack!Cloud who doesn't have a VIP list of people he cares about. Clack!Cloud who says there is nothing he doesn't cherish.





Oh, wait, that's actually canon!Cloud.

Canon!Cloud is a nice guy. Please don't butcher canon!Cloud for Clerith. Even I wouldn't want a Cloud like that near my Aerith, why would you?

It all comes down to this. If someone is Aerith's fan why, why in the world would you want her to be with douchebag!Cloud? I don't want my Tifa anywhere near that Cloud. He deserves a good kick where the sun don't shine. Preferably by Tifa because that would hurt.

Cloud is messed up like Tifa once said but he is a good man not a heartless jerk. I hate that he is so blatantly butchered. He is not a typically hero and that is why I love him.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

douchebag!Cloud deserves worse than that. He deserves a Rocket Punch from Barret where the sun don't shine.

 

[Aerobalance]

OOPS! I said I wouldn't respond anymore. Sorry, guys, I have failed you. I have failed to fulfill my promise. Will my sin ever be forgiven?

Aeris: I never blamed you. Not once. You came to respond for me. That's all that matters. ~Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children/Advent Children Complete Script

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

What Aerith wants is irrelevant. She can entrust all her feelings for Cloud to Tifa, instruct the latter to take care of him and then tell Cloud himself to move on with his life (she really did all those things), but a minority of the fandom's wish for Cloud and Aerith trumps her own.

 

[Dashell]

I actually know where you can find the answer to why Cloud brought Denzel back to take care of.

It's right in the novel that introduced Denzel. He can't get back lives that are lost, but he might be able to save one that's in danger now. There's the reason he is concerned about the child he believed Aerith brought to him.

Literally in black and white, right on the page.

That sounds like bias Cloti talk to me.

1. The "wavers" quote by itself proves that Cloud and Aerith had a special bond that went beyond a friendship.

... no... it doesn't. It says Cloud was wavering between Tifa and Aerith... it doesn't say anything about a special bond.

2. SE views Cloud and Aerith as more than just friends as evidenced by the FFIX cameo and the Emperor/Empress dedication. Therefore, the "special bond" cannot just be friendship.

So they get married in another universe and this effects FFVII how?

3. Why would SE point out that Aerith's love rival (Tifa) was jealous over this "special bond" that Cloud and Aerith had?

It seems even Tifa see's what Cloti's deny -- Cloud likes Aerith on a romantic level.

tbh I don't deny Cloud had some romantic feelings toward Aerith, I mean we're pretty much told this... but he never told Aerith and she never told him... ergo their "special bond" never went to the romantic level

4. When you consider Cloud being physically attracted to Aerith, being triggered into a romantic flashback after meeting Aerith, agreeing to be Aerith's bodyguard for the price of a date, telling Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him, flirting with Aerith in-front of Tifa, being willing to risk his life to save Aerith after just meeting her, going on a date with Aerith, etc., it is clear that Cloud and Aerith's special bond was more than just friendship.

See above.

 

[BlankBeat]

Cloud disagrees so much with Tifa that all he could do was smile.

"Days after having that conversation, Cloud left. Tifa wondered if that smile he showed her was an illusion." -CoT

Even Tifa doesn't believe Cloud's smile.

--------------------

And hito was kind enough to explain from his perspective how you're doing exactly fucking that, even if you don't see it. Look harder. See what's really there, even if you don't like it.

I'm simply saying that their living arrangements and the family formed was not from a romantic place.

He's atoning. Hid hands are too bloody to carry Marlene, remember? Sure, part of the reasoning for Marlene staying at 7th Heaven has to do with her safety, Barret did choose to atone via hunting for energy sources and fighting dangerous monsters as needed. But the largest part of it? He believes his kid is better off being raised by Cloud and Tifa, at least until he's done.

Also... who the fuck cares who built the bar? I helped build my mother's home, I don't live there. This has nothing to do with anything. Barret LEFT. Again I say, deal with it please.

Where does Barret say he believes his kid is better off being raised by Cloud and Tifa?

&#8220;Yeah, let&#8217;s go home&#8221; Cloud agreed.
&#8220;Where to?&#8221; Barret asked.
&#8220;Our suspended reality.&#8221;
&#8220;What the hell do you mean by that?&#8221;
&#8220;Our normal lives.&#8221;
&#8220;And where do we have something like that?&#8221;
&#8220;We&#8217;ll find one.&#8221; Cloud looked at Tifa and said, &#8220;Right?&#8221;
&#8220;Yeah!&#8221; cried the cheerful Marlene. Tifa nodded too, but just like Barret, she wondered where they had a normal life. ~CoT

Cloud, Tifa, Barret, and Marlene decided to form a family together.

&#8220;I&#8217;ll take care of Cloud and Tifa!&#8221;
Barret turned round and shouted, &#8220;Do your best!&#8221; His voice was a little shaky. &#8220;Unite the family&#8217;s strength and keep at it!&#8221; ~CoT

Barret tells Marlene to unite the families strength while he is gone, the family that he helped create in the passage I provided above.

&#8220;A family.&#8221; (Tifa)
&#8220;Yeah.&#8221; (Marlene)
Marlene cheerfully answered in response to Tifa&#8217;s murmur.
&#8220;I&#8217;ll put Cloud in our family too.&#8221; (Marlene)
&#8220;I appreciate that.&#8221; (Cloud) ~Revised CoT

Marlene puts Cloud in the family that includes her Father, Barret. If this is Cloud's family, why did Marlene do the inviting? Shouldn't Cloud have invited Marlene into *HIS* family?

After visiting various locations with Tifa and Barret, Tifa opened the &#8220;Seventh Heaven&#8221; bar. Before setting off on a journey, Barret left Marlene in Cloud and Tifa&#8217;s care, and the three of them began living together. ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud Strife Profile"

It says that the "three of them [Cloud, Tifa, Marlene]" began *living* together *AFTER* Barret set off on a "journey".

This unequivocally proves that when the words "live"/"living"/"lived" are used to describe Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel, it is *ONLY* excluding Barret because Barret is not *TECHNICALLY* "living" with them.

"I'll be a good child of this family!" <---Said by Marlene to her father as he leaves. THIS family. Of which Barret IS NOT A MEMBER.

Why are Cloti's insistent on making Marlene apart of two families? It is clear that they all formed ONE family in Edge. Marlene invites CLoud into HER family (her family includes Barret). Furthermore, Barret tells Marlene to unite the families strength while he is gone -- which means that when he comes back, he will be able to help unite the families strength -- the family that he helped create in Edge.

--------------------

... no... it doesn't. It says Cloud was wavering between Tifa and Aerith... it doesn't say anything about a special bond.

If Cloud is wavering between two heroines, and one of those heroines is Aerith, how can someone say Cloud's "special bond" with Aerith is limited to that of a friendship?

So they get married in another universe and this effects FFVII how?

Ugh. I've already explained this multiple times. This gives us insight into how SE views Cloud and Aerith. If there were no basis of a romantic relationship between Cloud and Aerith in FFVII, why does SE continue to portray them as a romantic couple?

 

[BlankBeat]

Cloud never expresses he loves Aerith, he expresses that he blames himself for her death, as well as Zack's. Guilt is the theme that SE uses, not everlasting love. Cloud isn't sitting at the church thinking about how he wishes Aerith was alive so that he could be with her. He is there thinking he was too weak to save her, so how can he protect his family now? What if something happens to them too? Tifa sees this when Cloud is reluctant to go to the Ancient City and she says that she knows Cloud is scared of something happening that can't un-happen.

But why does Cloud care that he let Aerith, in particular, die? Because of the "special bond" they developed together. This special bond, that I believe I have demonstrated is romantic, causes and creates Cloud to have this immense guilt. It is only logical to conclude that Cloud feels guilty over letting Aerith die because of the relationship they developed with each other.

 

[Dashell]

If Cloud is wavering between two heroines, and one of those heroines is Aerith, how can someone say Cloud's "special bond" with Aerith is limited to that of a friendship?

YOu can't really have a romantic relationship when neither of the people involved know the other person likes them. At least IMO.

Ugh. I've already explained this multiple times. This gives us insight into how SE views Cloud and Aerith. If there were no basis of a romantic relationship between Cloud and Aerith in FFVII, why does SE continue to portray them as a romantic couple?

But it doesn't... it's just a silly little spin off game.. just like KH has no effect on FFVII, neither does Dissidia... I'll never take any spin off games as evidence of anything really... It just doesn't mean that much to me...

 

[Knuxson]

Cloud never expresses he loves Aerith, he expresses that he blames himself for her death, as well as Zack's. Guilt is the theme that SE uses, not everlasting love. Cloud isn't sitting at the church thinking about how he wishes Aerith was alive so that he could be with her. He is there thinking he was too weak to save her, so how can he protect his family now? What if something happens to them too? Tifa sees this when Cloud is reluctant to go to the Ancient City and she says that she knows Cloud is scared of something happening that can't un-happen.

But why does Cloud care that he let Aerith, in particular, die? Because of the "special bond" they developed together. This special bond, that I believe I have demonstrated is romantic, causes and creates Cloud to have this immense guilt. It is only logical to conclude that Cloud feels guilty over letting Aerith die because of the relationship they developed with each other.

Umm, it's not Aerith in particular. He felt guilty about Zack too, which I clearly said in my post. Also, he felt extremely guilty when he couldn't save Tifa from falling from Mt. Nibel when he was a kid too. Not being able to save the people that were killed or hurt right in front of him has always haunted Cloud. If his CPR on Priscilla hadn't worked, he probably would have blamed himself for that too. He has always tended to blame himself for being too weak to change the outcome of these types of things.

 

[BlankBeat]

Umm, it's not Aerith in particular. He felt guilty about Zack too, which I clearly said in my post. Also, he felt extremely guilty when he couldn't save Tifa from falling from Mt. Nibel when he was a kid too. Not being able to save the people that were killed or hurt right in front of him has always haunted Cloud. If his CPR on Priscilla hadn't worked, he probably would have blamed himself for that too. He has always tended to blame himself for being too weak to change the outcome of these types of things.

Right. Cloud felt guilty about letting Zack die because of their friendship.

But we are talking about why Cloud feels such immense guilt for letting Aerith die. And it obviously has to do with the relationship that they had together.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

But we are talking about why Cloud feels such immense guilt for letting Aerith die. And it obviously has to do with the relationship that they had together.

It's interesting to me that Cloud and Aerith had a romantic relationship without either of them knowing it. If we keep reading, maybe BlankBeat will explain to us how that happened.

 

[Lex]

It's interesting to me that we're continuing to engage these baseless arguments at all actually. I mean by all means carry on, but I feel my brain cells popping as I type. The LTD is a beast like no other, you can't quite help but watch it explode no matter how many times it happens.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Oh, at this point for me it's all about seeing what manner of hilarity we can get out of him if we just prod him a little.

 

[Knuxson]

Right. Cloud felt guilty about letting Zack die because of their friendship.

But we are talking about why Cloud feels such immense guilt for letting Aerith die. And it obviously has to do with the relationship that they had together.

Well, I wasn't trying to say that an important person to him such as Aerith dying did not intensify his guilty emotions. My point was that the theme of AC and the reason Cloud isolates himself at the church were not of Cloud romantically loving someone who has passed for the rest of his days. It was of guilt and not being confident that he can make a difference or protect those who are still alive due to past failings.

 

[BlankBeat]

Well, I wasn't trying to say that an important person to him such as Aerith dying did not intensify his guilty emotions. My point was that the theme of AC and the reason Cloud isolates himself at the church were not of Cloud romantically loving someone who has passed for the rest of his days. It was of guilt and not being confident that he can make a difference or protect those who are still alive due to past failings.

"The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn&#8217;t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.

FFVII: Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings.

AC: Upon knowing that Cloud had been residing in Aerith&#8217;s church after leaving the place they had been living in together, her expression becomes complex.&#8221; ~Tifa&#8217;s character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

In a passage outlining Tifa's jealously towards Cloud's relationship with her love rival, Aerith, SE mentions Cloud visiting Aerith's Church and that Tifa's problem isn't just that Cloud is dragging around the past, but that the reason might be related to Aerith, in particular.

Why does SE do that?