The OG+the Compilation

Master Bates

Do you enjoy your life?
AKA
Mr. Koiwai
@looneymoon (I'd have liked to call you 'honeymoon'. Can I call you honeymoon?)
It's bad because it's reductive to all three characters and I legit have a lot of trouble trying to understand how this is considered a good take. It stems from an obsessive desire to view the narrative in such a narrow lens of a love triangle, and thus inevitably throws a lot of substantial things in the story and characters out of the window. I'm seriously considering whether I'll pick Fifty Shades Trilogy over this nonsense.
 

looneymoon

hedgehog pandacat
AKA
Rishi
@looneymoon (I'd have liked to call you 'honeymoon'. Can I call you honeymoon?)
It's bad because it's reductive to all three characters and I legit have a lot of trouble trying to understand how this is considered a good take. It stems from an obsessive desire to view the narrative in such a narrow lens of a love triangle, and thus inevitably throws a lot of substantial things in the story and characters out of the window. I'm seriously considering whether I'll pick Fifty Shades Trilogy over this nonsense.
You can call me what you want, it's all a honeymoon to me :awesome:

Also yeah idk how loaded we're allowed to get in this thread, but this whole "it's up to interpretation" defense (which is something I would typically agree with if we divorce the OG from the Compilation) is used to justify some very thinly veiled misogyny, imo.
 

Ruri

Pro Adventurer
Uhhh...

I'm talking about post-AC.
I answered this yesterday, but I understand, a lot of my posts are getting ignored by you. :)

Nothing "gross" about it.
It's gross, BB and Aerith absolutely wouldn't like a guy like this.

The caption under the date is irrelevant because the Clerith date is forever the canon and "normally occurring" date.
Apparently text is only relevant when it suits.
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
SE says who Cloud loves is up to interpretation.

After being asked REPEATEDLY to give clarification of my interpretation, and then doing so, I'm now being told that my interpretation is "gross."

Do you see how unfair that is?

If SE wants Cloud to be able to love Aerith or Tifa, then my interpretation is entirely endorsed by SE.

I guess y'all think that SE is a "gross" company because they leave it ambiguous enough for gamers to believe that Cloud and Aerith are #endgame.

Sad. And unfortunate.
 
SE says who Cloud loves is up to interpretation.

After being asked REPEATEDLY to give clarification of my interpretation, and then doing so, I'm now being told that my interpretation is "gross."

Do you see how unfair that is?

If SE wants Cloud to be able to love Aerith or Tifa, then my interpretation is entirely endorsed by SE.

I guess y'all think that SE is a "gross" company because they leave it ambiguous enough for gamers to believe that Cloud and Aerith are #endgame.

Sad. And unfortunate.
What did I just post? No one called Cloud liking Aerith gross. They said it would be gross for Cloud to maintain a relationship with Tifa if he doesn't have romantic feelings for her, because that would be a shitty thing to do. Relax.
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
It's a love triangle. Cloud "wavers" to both.

But to me, Cloud's preference is Aerith and he would have ended up with Aerith if she had lived.
 

minami758

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Miiwoo
Nomura: “AC is a piece of work made by Japanese people. In Hollywood movies, I think there is a tendency where the meaning of all the scenes have to be expressed clearly but, this isn’t something like that. With our work, the viewer is free to decide how they interpret or enjoy it. The staff has their own answers to all the scenes in the movie such as the angel statue that makes an appearance many times. But, even if someone who has watched it interprets it differently, then that is just another answer. I guess "comparing answers” with friends is one of the ways you can enjoy the movie. I think AC is a movie that makes those who have watched it, want to talk about it with others.“
~FFVII AC Prologue Book
Nomura is speaking about the entire movie here, not just this "love triangle" you're so fixated on. He's speaking on the themes and filmic messages of the story, as evidenced by the comment he makes about the angel statue. Contrary to your fervent beliefs, FF7 is not a love story. Romance is a part of it, but it's not the be-all-end-all of the game.

I’d say, [who Cloud likes] is all how you perceive the game. Cloud, as you know, is a very popular character, so I don’t want to confirm the answer either way. Since the players have affection towards him, I want to leave it up to the players to decide who Cloud likes.
~
2002 interview with Tetsuya Nomura
This was published in 2002, before any of the Compilation came out. Since we're in the OG + Compilation thread, you're ignoring everything that was released after he said this quote. Sure, I'll be generous and allow the "up for interpretation" point stand for the OG only, even though I disagree.

Edit: Guess this quote is a forgery, so even less relevant.

However, everything released post-OG says otherwise. You just refuse to see it.

You keep copy/pasting these arguments that you've used time and time again, that people have rebutted time and time again, without providing any new arguments to support your points. People have tried to see your side and say they agree with some of your points, yet you refuse to budge an inch in return. You just repeat yourself ad nauseam even though we've answered your arguments.

I asked you a question several posts back, that several people have brought up again: How do you reconcile Cloud Strife as he exists in the OG/Compilation and the Cloud Strife you've created with your arguments?

He knows Tifa loves him, and yet your version of Cloud Strife gladly uses and abuses her as he sees fit, all the while pining for the arms of a dead woman. And Tifa is just a pathetic leftover woman who takes this emotional abuse sitting down, accepting that she will never be loved. Do you truly think so little of Tifa? Don't answer that, because I already know your answer.

But then, do you truly think so little of Cloud? Do you believe that Aerith would love this Cloud — a Cloud who takes advantage of a woman who loves him by living with her and raising children with her and sharing a bank account with her? A Cloud who knows Tifa's history and suffering and yet continues to contribute to that suffering by wishing he were with another woman?

Why would anyone love that kind of character? Why would anyone root for that kind of behavior? If you have an answer, by all means, please let us know.
 
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BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
User banned from Section (4 Months): Breaking rules of good faith, ignoring mod warnings, citing verifiably false evidence, violating "What happened at [X] stays at [X]"
@minami758

You expect me to abandon my arguments because you think your arguments are more valid. Weird?

Y'all think that just because there are more of you in agreement on this forum, that somehow your arguments are more valid than mine.

I won't abandon my arguments just because you tell me to or just because you think you have "refuted" my arguments.

And no -- nothing in the compilation confirms Cloud and Tifa are together as a couple. Nowhere is Tifa stated to be Cloud's "girlfriend," and there are no explicit scenes of romance between them, either.

PS:

Isn't it weird...

SO MANY recently created pro-Cloti accounts have been created.

It's almost as if the Tumblr Cloti community all decided to sign up at TLS.

Final Heaven is their ringleader, after-all.

Anyway -- have fun being infiltrated, TLS!!

I notice the Cloti thread is having lots of activity lately!! Weird coincidence!!
 

Ruri

Pro Adventurer
Isn't it weird...

SO MANY recently created pro-Cloti accounts have been created.

It's almost as if the Tumblr Cloti community all decided to sign up at TLS.

Final Heaven is their ringleader, after-all.

Anyway -- have fun being infiltrated, TLS!!

I notice the Cloti thread is having lots of activity lately!! Weird coincidence!!
Ugh, what is this paranoia. The remake just got released BB. Of course old and new fans are flocking to FFVII focused sites to discuss it.
 

RhinoKart

Pro Adventurer
@minami758

You expect me to abandon my arguments because you think your arguments are more valid. Weird?

Y'all think that just because there are more of you in agreement on this forum, that somehow your arguments are more valid than mine.

I won't abandon my arguments just because you tell me to or just because you think you have "refuted" my arguments.

And no -- nothing in the compilation confirms Cloud and Tifa are together as a couple. Nowhere is Tifa stated to be Cloud's "girlfriend," and there are no explicit scenes of romance between them, either.

PS:

Isn't it weird...

SO MANY recently created pro-Cloti accounts have been created.

It's almost as if the Tumblr Cloti community all decided to sign up at TLS.

Final Heaven is their ringleader, after-all.

Anyway -- have fun being infiltrated, TLS!!

I notice the Cloti thread is having lots of activity lately!! Weird coincidence!!
As was explained in the other thread, the Final Heaven you are talking about is NOT the same person who posts here. It would be nice if you didn't accuse anyone of things, but especially don't accuse people when you don't even have the information correct.

And I know that last bit is just bait, but yeah, of course people who like Cloti are posting in the Cloti club....
 

Vortigern

Pro Adventurer
@minami758
PS:

Isn't it weird...

SO MANY recently created pro-Cloti accounts have been created.

It's almost as if the Tumblr Cloti community all decided to sign up at TLS.

Final Heaven is their ringleader, after-all.

Anyway -- have fun being infiltrated, TLS!!

I notice the Cloti thread is having lots of activity lately!! Weird coincidence!!
My ruse has been revealed! My status as a sleeper agent has finally been unveiled, mission is now compromised... :monster:
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Especially since TLS is more laid-back in most ways and easier to engage in various discussions and theories than say, Reddit.

Other than that I have nothing to add to the discussion. Cloud is happy with Tifa post-ACC, he doesn't have his guilt towards Aerith and Zack and fear of losing Tifa and the kids anymore, he's able to enjoy life. And that's pretty much why his (and Tifa's) story stops there. Because there is no drama anymore, it's just a normal family from there on. When there's no tension or drama, the story is reduced to fluff, which is great for fans but not so great as a story to build and tell from a narrative point of view.
 

Pandemonium

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
As for the OG+Compilation, evidence supports C&T getting back together at the end of ACC.

In OTWTAS and AC, Cloud and Tifa are broken up and not living together. Both are unhappy. At the end of ACC, they move back in together, and are happy.

If after all the info we have on these three as characters (within canon) and you still think Cloud "wavers" towards Aerith, you'll never change your mind.

If this was about all media, that includes dissidia, tactics and WoFF, I'd agree. Yes, who cloud wants to be with, is unclear.

Within canon, its obviously clear, he wants to be with Tifa
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
I don't think that Cloud and Tifa are "broken up" per se. Cloud left for a few weeks without telling anything to Tifa because he was sick, but I don't think that they had properly broken up. I always saw this as Cloud running away from his problems, and him returning home literally shows that he's been able to, in the end.

Just like Tifa's feelings in ACC are more than just "jealousy". They are described as complicated, and I think it's the true sense of them. There may be a little bit of jealousy, but there's also the sense that Aerith is the cause of Cloud's guilt, and she herself must feel awful that she died instead of living happily as she had should've... All of this also gets cleared when Tifa senses Aerith and tells her "thank you" while smiling, because in the end, they were/are still friends and she cherishes her memory too. She understands that Aerith still stands by their side, and wants to help too.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Don't be bringing stuff from elsewhere onto TLS.
I'm quoting this for much needed emphasis. "What happened at [X] stays at [X]" was a standard rule of this forum long before the LTD b.s. got rules specific to it, and is pretty standard across many forums.

Blank, you are now being banned from this section of the forum for four months and are extremely close to being permanently banned for having now broken multiple rules.

In addition to violating the above, you demonstrated an unwillingness to assume good faith (a requirement of this section) when you said to DutchDread "Of course you don't want to debate 'Hollow,' it helps Clerith" after they had given you their reasoning, and that was before you began peddling this bizarre conspiracy theory about that Cloti blog -- and then continued doing so after a mod told you to stop.

As it is, why should anyone have considered they may get a good faith discussion out of you on this subject after you said this morning that Tifa "is and always was an after-thought"? Which, by the way, breaks another rule in here: character assassination.

On top of all of the above, you even cited a "comment from Nomura" that was proven to be a forgery a decade ago:

I’d say, [who Cloud likes] is all how you perceive the game. Cloud, as you know, is a very popular character, so I don’t want to confirm the answer either way. Since the players have affection towards him, I want to leave it up to the players to decide who Cloud likes.
~
2002 interview with Tetsuya Nomura
Nomura never said this. Someone took a similarly constructed response from Nomura in an interview from the KH Ultimania, swapped out the topic of who KH Cloud was searching for with "who Cloud likes," and then outright fabricated the "I want to leave it up to players to decide who Cloud likes" bit at the end.

The only reason -- let me be very clear: the only reason -- you are not being permanently banned at this moment is because there is some possibility that you legitimately did not know about the above forgery being what it is, despite it being mentioned here and elsewhere on numerous occasions.

Should you decide to return down the road, don't do any of this again. You are on your final chance.

How Denzel views Cloud and Tifa has no relevance towards how Cloud and Tifa view each other.
Ceetainly it has at least as much relevance as how Tifa wonders Cloud may view Aerith?
 
It's just the absolutism and required ranking that I find silly. I think it's incredibly clear he had feelings for Aerith. She's gone now. But he hasn't "settled" for Tifa, he genuinely loves her. Does he miss Aerith? Of course he does. Might he sometimes wonder what would have happened had she not died? Of course he does. I think even without a death, everyone (in a relationship or not) will wonder sometimes how things might have gone with an old friend or flame if something had gone a little differently.

If Aerith stuck around might they have wound up together and Tifa moved on? Sure, maybe. Might he have wound up with Tifa anyway? Sure, maybe. Might they have started a polyamorous triad? Sure, maybe. Might none of them have ended up with each other and all moved on to find other people? Sure, maybe.
We'll never know, and that's [one reason] why her death is a tragedy. And also why I have always struggled to understand the longevity of this debate, lol.
 
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Yumelinh

Pro Adventurer
Sure -- Cloud would feel these things regardless of being in a love triangle with Aerith.

But the point is that his romantic feelings towards Aerith make everything you mentioned even more compelling, meaningful, and impactful.

Why would SE create all of that for a mere friend when they could create all of that for a romantic interest, and thus heighten the emotions associated with the main character?
I never stated that she wasn't a romantic interest, she's a part of the LTD for a reason. Cloud waves between both girls at the time Aerith was alive. I was simply saying that none of it diminishes or erases Cloud's romantic feelings for Tifa because Cloud would do and feel the same way for Aerith's death regardless of his romantic feelings for her. Aerith matters. Simply as that.

As for why SE would do that? Well, because FFVII isn't your usual story. One of its main themes is literally to flip around the player's expectations. That's how they decided to tell this story and honestly? There's nothing me or you can do about it.

To me, the story goes on to show how incompatible Cloud and Tifa are. Nojima says the reasons for their incompatibility likely have NOTHING TO DO with geostigma and Sephiroth. Therefore, the "guilt" argument as being the only reason for Cloud and Tifa's incompatibility isn't accurate. Nojima specifies that the reason likely has to do with something other than Sephiroth or geostigma.

And the "kids" are Marlene (Barret's daughter) and Denzel (a boy Cloud believes was brought to him by Aerith).

Cloud may be happy with Tifa. But he'd be happier with Aerith, and is always shown seeking Aerith (which makes Tifa jealous). Even Tifa knows she's 2nd place to Aerith, and she always will be. Aerith is the original heroine and the original love interest.
All these points above have already be answered by other people here, so I won't be repeating myself as I agree with them.

However, this bit really bothers me, so I'd like you to clarify it if you want ofc:

And the "kids" are Marlene (Barret's daughter) and Denzel (a boy Cloud believes was brought to him by Aerith).
Why do you keep bringing this? What do you mean by that?

Yes, Barret is Marlene's Dad, but it doesn't change the fact that Cloud is raising her, he's her father figure when Barret isn't around, and he left Marlene in Tifa and Cloud's care.

As for Denzel. He is their kid. Cloud and Tifa are the ones raising him. It doesn't matter who brought him to their family or where he came from. It's their kid.

Are you implying that these kids aren't important or "enough evidence" because they're not their biological kids? Is that it?

Or, as for Denzel's case, are you implying he is Cloud's only or that he's Cloud and Aerith bc she brought him to Cloud? Is that it?

@minami758

You expect me to abandon my arguments because you think your arguments are more valid. Weird?

Y'all think that just because there are more of you in agreement on this forum, that somehow your arguments are more valid than mine.

I won't abandon my arguments just because you tell me to or just because you think you have "refuted" my arguments.

No one is expecting you to abandon your arguments, BB. We're expecting you to defend them, with valid information aside from "that's how I see it!".

If you say we didn't refute your arguments, then please feel free to disprove what we said against these said arguments of yours instead of responding by quoting back the exact same argument that was being refuted. And try to actually see the full picture instead of seeing only what you want to see. You're a very cohesive person when you want to be.


@minami758
And no -- nothing in the compilation confirms Cloud and Tifa are together as a couple. Nowhere is Tifa stated to be Cloud's "girlfriend," and there are no explicit scenes of romance between them, either.
It does! There's plenty of confirmation and evidence that C/T have confirmed their feelings and are therefore living together now. It's just not enough evidence for you because you keep raising the standards and when they meet said standard you will continue to raise it.

But do you know what it nowhere to be found in the Compilation? Confirmation of Cloud's romantic feelings for Aerith. But it never stopped you for keep claiming this.


Also yeah idk how loaded we're allowed to get in this thread, but this whole "it's up to interpretation" defense (which is something I would typically agree with if we divorce the OG from the Compilation) is used to justify some very thinly veiled misogyny, imo.
Good to know I'm not the only one picking that up. These types of arguments that place Tifa as a mere second choice that Cloud 'takes advantage of' reeks of misogyny and turns Cloud into a complete jackass.


Edit: I wrote this whole post bf I saw Tres post... all the wasted work lol ;-;
 
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Good to know I'm not the only one picking that up. These types of arguments that place Tifa as a mere second choice that Cloud 'takes advantage of' reeks of misogyny and turns Cloud into a complete jackass.
BB SEEMS to believe that Cloud and Tifa are just roommates in AC/C and beyond. If that were the case, then sure, he's not being gross or a jackass. (Though he could probably stand to move somewhere else so Tifa can move on with her life.) But they also latched onto hte "gross" word as though it would be gross if Cloud were still in love with Aerith which...I don't know how they got that out of what was said.
 

Pandemonium

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
I don't think that Cloud and Tifa are "broken up" per se. Cloud left for a few weeks without telling anything to Tifa because he was sick, but I don't think that they had properly broken up. I always saw this as Cloud running away from his problems, and him returning home literally shows that he's been able to, in the end.

Just like Tifa's feelings in ACC are more than just "jealousy". They are described as complicated, and I think it's the true sense of them. There may be a little bit of jealousy, but there's also the sense that Aerith is the cause of Cloud's guilt, and she herself must feel awful that she died instead of living happily as she had should've... All of this also gets cleared when Tifa senses Aerith and tells her "thank you" while smiling, because in the end, they were/are still friends and she cherishes her memory too. She understands that Aerith still stands by their side, and wants to help too.
Ya know what, that's a good point. I can't disagree with that. It makes sense when talking about who the characters are, and what was going on.

My point was more to say, that C&T were together at the end of ACC.
 

Yumelinh

Pro Adventurer
BB SEEMS to believe that Cloud and Tifa are just roommates in AC/C and beyond. If that were the case, then sure, he's not being gross or a jackass. (Though he could probably stand to move somewhere else so Tifa can move on with her life.) But they also latched onto hte "gross" word as though it would be gross if Cloud were still in love with Aerith which...I don't know how they got that out of what was said.
Oh, I agree with you on that, but my post was more of a general call-out at how Tifa has been described as a second choice, an afterthought, a leftover, and so on. And how it perpetuates the idea that she only existed there to serve Cloud as a mere replacement since he can't have Aerith and I don't need to say how much wrong is the whole idea that such a narrative is true :/
 

DutchDread

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Dutch Dread
I'm quoting this for much needed emphasis. "What happened at [X] stays at [X]" was a standard rule of this forum long before the LTD b.s. got rules specific to it, and is pretty standard across many forums.

Blank, you are now being banned from this section of the forum for four months and are extremely close to being permanently banned for having now broken multiple rules.

In addition to violating the above, you demonstrated an unwillingness to assume good faith (a requirement of this section) when you said to DutchDread "Of course you don't want to debate 'Hollow,' it helps Clerith" after they had given you their reasoning, and that was before you began peddling this bizarre conspiracy theory about that Cloti blog -- and then continued doing so after a mod told you to stop.

As it is, why should anyone have considered they may get a good faith discussion out of you on this subject after you said this morning that Tifa "is and always was an after-thought"? Which, by the way, breaks another rule in here: character assassination.

On top of all of the above, you even cited a "comment from Nomura" that was proven to be a forgery a decade ago:



Nomura never said this. Someone took a similarly constructed response from Nomura in an interview from the KH Ultimania, swapped out the topic of who KH Cloud was searching for with "who Cloud likes," and then outright fabricated the "I want to leave it up to players to decide who Cloud likes" bit at the end.

The only reason -- let me be very clear: the only reason -- you are not being permanently banned at this moment is because there is some possibility that you legitimately did not know about the above forgery being what it is, despite it being mentioned here and elsewhere on numerous occasions.

Should you decide to return down the road, don't do any of this again. You are on your final chance.


Ceetainly it has at least as much relevance as how Tifa wonders Cloud may view Aerith?
Well, that's certainly firm but fair, I apologize for again getting swept up in it again as well but I have to say, it's REALLY difficult to try and maintain courtesy when someone is being this infuriating.

I know we have to assume good faith....but still. I asked for a simple clarification on a position half a dozen times, I've never seen anyone who is this blatantly uninterested in having a two-sided discussion. It is baffling, I really don't know how to respond to that.

If that were the case, then sure, he's not being gross or a jackass.
Maybe not gross, but he'd still be a jackass, he'd still be knowingly playing with her emotions and arguably taking advantage of them. Only difference is that in this scenario Tifa isn't even getting any for her troubles :S


I don't think that Cloud and Tifa are "broken up" per se.
One of the problems I generally see with these sorts of things is that we always assume that relationships in fantasy worlds are the same as in ours, it still baffles me that no matter where you go, "marriage" is apparently a pretty similar concept.
I've never seen anyone in FFVII specifically ask a girl "do you want to be my monogamous girlfriend" or something, we just kind of assume that's how it works. In the big picture, I get that. But when it comes to smaller issues, like what determines a couple, what determines a break up, etc, this seems weird to me. I don't think that's even a universal thing in our world, let alone FFVII.

I really don't think that Tifa and Cloud would have needed a moment where they became "official" in order to be a "couple". And while Tifa is still waiting for Cloud to return, and Cloud is engaged with his inner struggles, I don't see why we'd try to label that as a "break up" or a "couple"?
It is what it is, two people who were not in a great place at that moment, but were still exclusive. There is nothing that defines what being a "couple" is, besides our own categorization of ourselves as such. So how can we deign to try and put those labels on people who live in an entirely different way?
Tifa isn't interested or trying to see other men, and Cloud wasn't trying to see other women, if Cloud were to come to Tifa, she'd embrace him, and Cloud still wants to make Tifa happy (he just thinks he can't), and doesn't want any other guys to be with her. That's a couple in all the ways that matter.


The only reason -- let me be very clear: the only reason -- you are not being permanently banned at this moment is because there is some possibility that you legitimately did not know about the above forgery being what it is, despite it being mentioned here and elsewhere on numerous occasions.
Can I ask you about some clarification about these rules? Because I don't want to run foul of them accidentally, earlier (in I think this threat) I posted a quote about Clouds true self coming out with Tifa from the recent ultimania. I didn't have a official translation, since as far as I know there isn't one. So I simply googled the quote and used a (cloti) site that had the quote, with reference, along with a word for word translation of the kanji and some useful extra clarification and nuance.
Blank pointed out that that's a Cloti site, which shouldn't matter because that's an argument from authority, it's either correct or it's not, doesn't matter where it came from.
But I can easily imagine that other translators would give a different nuance to it. Or that there are some other rules concerning "no fan translations" or some such. I can also imagine misremembering something and making a mistake (honestly, Nojima, Nomura? Mistakes will be made). So since I see that willfully trying to promote faulty information (like a bad translation in the case of Blank) is rightfully punished, how strict or we on this? Because I don't know the history of each debunked translation, and if it's as specific is exact single wording, that's a difficult thing to keep track off.
 
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