Trace of Two Pasts novel discussion

[Thenir]

Couldn't be Zack an exception? Because her feeling for him is stronger than the people she ever sensed regardless of her age?

Well I'd say yes but one of the points of the OG is that Aerith seemed to be unaware of Zack's death and that she simply thought he had found another girl. Now there's the old dear problem of Zack being a last addition in the OG. The devs will need to fix this issue, they spent a whole game focusing on Zack and Aerith's love and they especially hammered the idea that she kept waiting for him even after his death: she continued to sell flowers in Sector 8, to wear a pink dress, his bow, etc. I mean the Farewell Monologue is quite self explainatory.

So it's speculation time, why did she sense his death but anyway denied it? Even if the Remake ending ties perfecty with CC ending and her last line alludes to when she perceived his death under the rain, she spends anyway the first half of Ch. 9 asking Cloud about SOLDIERS, if he had any war buddy and finally spills the beans and mentions Zack. This isn't really a proof that she doesn't know about his death but it definitely shows she isn't over him and that she's unaware of what really happened.
My personal opinion is that she's doesn't really want to believe he's dead. I mean, the guy you loved and still love disappeared without a reason, you kept sending letters but never received a reply. More or less you already saw a similar scenario when Elmyra waited every day for her husband...wouldn't his death be your worst fear? Wouldn't you try to convince yourself that you were wrong, your powers doesn't work well like they did when you were a kid, he's better be with another woman rather than dead...? Then, in the middle of all this, you meet another man who bears odd resemblances with Zack, who falls in the church, has the same sword and uniform, etc ect...it's too much to be a coincidence so you want to know what's behind it (indeed it's not a coincidence) and the story begins.
Now I'm a bit more confused as regards the Remake, because she seems to know more than expected even about Zack. It got lost in the English localization but in Japanese the line she shares with Cloud when she meets him in Sector 8 parallels with the CC dialogue where Zack gave her the ribbon (pointed out by Jp fans). It could be a coincidence but...there are too many in this game when it comes to Zack and Aerith in my opinion. And Ulti+ confirmed that she had the vision of the last stand. So, I'm not sure what we'll have to expect now.

Damn, Nojima cut the part when she's supposed to tell Tifa about Zack. I'm sure she'd like to tell Tifa till that part of the story when he dies.

In any case she "couldn't" because according to the OG plot she never revealed Tifa about Zack (nor Tifa revealed her that Zack was in Nibelheim 5 years before), it's a huge plot point that needs to be respected.
And anyway Zack's part deserves all the glory of 4K

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Yes, it was easy to overlook all that stuff in the OG because of its relative lack of realism, but the visual realism of the Remake requires a corresponding realism in the behaviour of its characters. Aerith has finally been set free to travel the world. If she believes Zack is still alive, are we really supposed to believe that she never once confides in her comrades her hope, or fear, that they'll run across him in their travels? Especially since she and Tifa are supposedly BFFs now.

 

[Eerie]

In any case she "couldn't" because according to the OG plot she never revealed Tifa about Zack (nor Tifa revealed her that Zack was in Nibelheim 5 years before), it's a huge plot point that needs to be respected.

Isn't there some unused dialogue about this in Gongaga? I think that rather than not know, it's not shown and will be readded in Gongaga again, most presumably.

Also, I think she didn't know about Zack's death, because she has lost that power and Zack died only a few months before Remake began. So there's no way for her to know about it. When she saw Cloud with the Buster sword, she certainly became suspiscious that this guy could have answers she needed. That's why she grills him the way she does in Remake, until she has that vision of Zack's Last stand, and then of him passing by her and the gang.

 

[Thenir]

If she believes Zack is still alive, are we really supposed to believe that she never once confides in her comrades her hope, or fear, that they'll run across him in their travels?

It's definitely one of the things I'm really looking for in part 2. But I'm rather sure once in Gongaga, we won't face Zack's parents and see Aerith flirt with Cloud as if she didn't care. My heart, that's going to hurt...

Isn't there some unused dialogue about this in Gongaga?

Yep, I've seen something in the past but, idk, once Tifa and Aerith share their knowledges about Zack it would be odd to still have the plot working like it did in the OG, no?

 

[Eerie]

They also state that they must not tell anything to Cloud (because he's mentally unstable, none of the girls wanted to really bring that up). I think Remake is likely to play heavily on this, especially since Tifa's been getting flak for years for not telling Cloud what she knew from the start. So we're likely to see the girls teaming up in Remake to add context to Tifa's hesitations.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

The people who give Tifa flak for keeping quiet are wrong.

 

[KindOfBlue]

The people who give Tifa flak for keeping quiet are wrong.

“Hey Cloud, even though your memories and personality are being suppressed by an evil alien that’s possessing your brain, could you do me a solid and let me fix all of that by just talking to you about our FEELINGS™?”

 

[kathy202]

I give Tifa flak for that . Ok, not flak, but it's one of those things where if I ask how might we have prevented this shit show, this would be one of them. Of course there's no guarantee it would have made any difference.

It's not hard to understand why she reacted the way she did, but I do consider it one of the very few flaws she has (and the word flaw is an exaggeration here, it's hardly that bad). It's something that she eventually overcomes in the Lifestream. Zangan was right to tell her that you are your worst enemy. IMO, there's no need for her to share that "faulty" choice with Aerith or to downplay it just because some people think it makes her less worthy of a character.

I think the problem is that these people expect their heroines to be Miss Perfects. What's the point of having perfectly good characters make perfectly good decisions all the time?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

It's interesting to think how the various characters would have behaved if they were the one keeping that secret.

Barret and Yuffie would blurt it out the very first time it became an issue. They wouldn't stop to think about whether the truth would do more harm than good.
Cid is less impetuous; he'd think it over, weight up the good that might come from it against the evil.
Red XIII would keep what he knew to himself, unless he was convinced the situation urgently demanded the truth.
Vincent wouldn't tell and would probably not think it important.
As for Aerith - I think she wouldn't tell, but she also wouldn't be able to resist dropping hints that she knew more than she was letting on.

I find it a bit depressing that people don't like it when their fave characters have flaws. What do they expect from people? They are going to suffer a lot of disappointment in life.

 

[KindOfBlue]

My whole thing is, what exactly was anybody supposed to do, just…talk about it? It’s already tricky enough dealing with delusional people IRL, imagine a world where there’s an alien that manipulates memories and creates illusions

 

[kathy202]

There's no guaranteed solution in this case, but I do think that talking about it or trying to probe and understand more when there is obviously something off is typically a better approach to problems than not doing so. When Tifa became open about it in the Lifestream, it worked didn't it? Granted there was some Lifestream science going on there as well. Also, it's not until much later that they actually know this was the result of a freak science experiment.

 

[Eerie]

The thing is, in the Lifestream, Tifa has access to "true Cloud". It is not the case until then, and she's already seen him having hallucinations, and that visibly something was up with him. His story of the Nibelheim incident did give her a lot of pause, I think, as it looked so real, but he wasn't there, and certainly not at the place he claimed to be.

There was something she couldn't understand there, but! Not only! I know a lot of people dismiss it or never think about it, but Tifa does tell Cloud that she believed he was the real Cloud from the start. If she believes in him, but what he says is not consistent with her memory, then, is her memory flawed? Is there something more she doesn't know? It's Tifa's belief in himself that has allowed Cloud to go as far as he could with the illusion, but it's also her belief in him that brings him back. The fact that she couldn't speak to him until the Lifestream scene isn't really surprising. She too, was afraid of the truth. She faces her own fears too in the Lifestream.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

This argument about Tifa keeping the secret from Cloud always splits into two parts:
1. Why did she keep it from Cloud?
2. Was she right to keep it from Cloud?

It might well have been a better idea to talk to Cloud than to stay silent. However, people often don't choose the best way, and their reasons are many and various. It may not occur to them. It may not be in their nature. It may not look like the best way to them. Their life experiences may have taught them that speaking out is dangerous and to be avoided.

It's easy to be wise after the fact. Is there a human being anywhere in the world who has never looked back on an important situation and said to themselves, "I should have handled it differently"?

And if she had told Cloud earlier, he might have left their party earlier. Things might have played out for the better (i.e., Aerith lives), but they might also have played out for the worse (i.e., Sephiroth defeats Cloud). The important thing is that Tifa was acting with the best of intentions. She was doing what she thought was best. What more can anyone do? She carried the burden of a dreadful secret without ever trying to make herself feel better by unloading it onto someone else. That takes courage and strength of character.

 

[Thenir]

Well self-doubt and hesitation to face/express her emotions are Tifa's flaws, it's part of her character. That said the story is constructed to work with these flaws being part of the mechanism, and they even turn out to be positive ones in this specific context.

About the reason why Tifa doesn't reveal earlier the truth I'd say for one because she's worried about his constant headaches and strange behaviour, but more than anything else I think it's because she herself is unsure about her own memories. During the incident she almost got killed (Cloud thought she was really dead) and passed a long period in a coma, it is possible she started to doubt if actually she was the one who didn't recall correctly what really happened. The fact that Nibelheim has been rebuilt and the new citizens deny the incident ever happened only worsens the situation.

Then, what if she had revealed the truth earlier?
Let's keep in mind that Cloud passed from being severely mako poisoned to portray an alter ego essentially for the same reason: shield himself from the painful memories of his past failures (but Jenova still needs to take part to the Reunion so a walking fake-Cloud is a better fit than an incapacitated real-Cloud). Jenova helps the process preventing every inconvenient info that could undermine his false identity. Everytime something triggers a real memory Jenova blocks it and it doesn't even allow him to hear Zack's name. Not only, when someone actively menaces his identity he reacts violently (eg: Reno didn't believe he was a SOLDIER; Johnny was a "talker"). He needs his fake persona because he can't accept the truth about himself. If Tifa or anybody else had directly confessed the truth about Nibelheim incident:

A) Jenova would have caused him the worst and longest headache ever
B) He would have reacted violently
C) He would have had a mental breakdown -> turned again mako poisoned
And C is indeed what happens when Sephiroth reveals him (part of) the truth.

The problem for Cloud is not simply to remember the past but to accept it, because as things currently stand it is unbearable for him. When Tifa explores his subconscious he has the chance to face her, face his internal struggles and finally accept himself.
I seriously doubt he could have regained his real self and memories without this process.

 

[kathy202]

I agree with almost everything here. The setup has to play out the way it did. The only thing I'm not 100% convinced of is whether Tifa did what she did because she thought it was the best thing, or because she was afraid and allowed her flaws of self-doubt and hesitation to determine her actions, or inaction in this case.

I suspect it's a mix of both and more of the latter, and I think this is why some people use it as a reason to dislike her. Though I suppose if someone doesn't like characters like that, that's just a matter of taste.

Honestly, if she stayed that way till the end of the game I would be extremely frustrated with her too (and we wouldn't have much of a story). But she faces those fears in the Lifestream and saves the day, so I think some of the more extreme hate out there is rather unfair, or doesn't take the whole story into account.

 

[Thenir]

It's definitely both. Tifa fears that her revelation could have bad consequences (she states it in the Lifestream), but she is also insecure per se, and this attitude is not much different than her behaviour in On the way to a smile. It could easily be also a consequence of the traumas she experienced from Nibelheim incident on. She has flaws just like Cloud, Aerith, Barret, Cid, and every other character of this story.
Best characters do have flaws and I don't know why some people expect or wish they didn't. It's the problem of all the Cinderellas and Snow Whites out there who are the picture of perfection, they just stand there waiting for the events to turn at their favour and who are finally rewarded with an equally static prince. Simple stories better suited for a younger audience where the main characters just need to get rid of a linear external problem to get a perfect happy ending (if marrying a stranger can really be considered a happy ending).
Good stories portray characters who need to face their internal issues before the external ones, they make mistakes, overcome their fears they are layered and multifaceted just like real human beings.
And the resolution of the external problems doesn't correspond to a total resolution of the internal ones, flaws can't be erased but one can learn how to live with them. Essentially that's what happens in OTWTAS and Advent Children.
That's what made Frozen stand out from of all the Disney princess movies ever released, and that's what makes Cloud Strife the most loved FF character even after 24 years after his first appereance.

 

[odekopeko]

Why do some people blame Tifa for keeping it from Cloud and not ask whether Cloud was even ready or not to hear or accept the things she had to say? The only way she could help him was if he let her? We know how messed up his head was.

Someone who needs help has to want that help, and let that person help them. He finally did that by being honest with her and himself, and letting her in, and allowing her to see who he really was, warts and all. It’s only by allowing himself to be “weak”, to accept that weakness, did he regain himself and become stronger. Or something like that. I’m not good with words. I just don’t get how that’s anyone’s fault.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I think you've hit the nail on the head there, Thenir. Many of the young women I work with seriously believe that they should somehow be perfect: physically, academically, and psychologically. Some retain enough self-awareness to laugh at themselves for giving in to the cult of the perfect. Others, when asked (for example) why an assignment is late, say, "Oh, I'm just such a perfectionist, I have real trouble handing in a piece of work if I don't think it's the very best it can be", as if that were a valid or even a remotely logical excuse. As if perfection were even possible! They are often quite shocked when I tell them I have no respect for perfectionists. Perfectionism is a curse.

I have yet to encounter a teenage boy who is a perfectionist.

 

[kathy202]

I think it's a flaw rather than a fault. It might even have been a useful flaw in this situation that eventually led to a desired outcome (with a lot of suffering on her part unfortunately). From what I've seen across the fandom, those who dislike the character often turn it into a fault, and those who like the character sometimes downplay the flaw in defense.

Seriously though, the only one at fault is Hojo lol

 

[kathy202]

I have yet to encounter a teenage boy who is a perfectionist.

Double post, and irrelevant to the current topic, but... I've definitely met more perfectionist men at work than women. Though I could count with my fingers the number of women I know professionally. Curse or not, I'd rather be dealing with a perfectionist than a sloppy person

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Not if they're so perfectionist they can never finish anything because nothing they do can match up to the ideal of perfection in their mind.
But tbh I suspect many of the girls I deal with use "perfectionism" as an excuse for laziness because it's considered acceptable, even obligatory, for a girl to seek to be as perfect as possible. In reality, they didn't get the work done because they stayed up all night playing Minecraft.

 

[Thenir]

I have yet to encounter a teenage boy who is a perfectionist.

If pixeled boys count, Cloud is definitely a perfectionist: "I have to be the best or I don't deserve to be loved", a well-intentioned argument but nonetheless one of his biggest flaws. This attitude ends up hurting not only Cloud, who has overly high expectations on himself, but also all those around him who would just want to love him the way he is.

 

[Shadowfox]

Coming in a little late on this topic, but I don't agree with people who say that Tifa was at fault somehow for Cloud's mental breakdown at the Northern Crater. That she was a liar for not revealing everything she knew the moment she realised her memories and Cloud's contradicted each other.

For one, it's not as easy as Tifa saying, "No, that's wrong, you weren't there," when Cloud's recollections were so vivid and detailed that he had to have been there to know so much about it.

For another, Tifa was so badly injured that she was out of it and almost died. That wasn't the first time that's happened to her; she was in that kind of condition back after her fall at the mountain bridge. She lost a significant portion of her memories that time and still couldn't remember everything that had actually happened. I think that the way Tifa was affected by the events of Nibelheim's destruction by Sephiroth was written to mimic her childhood accident -- she knows some of the things that had happened, but she's also aware that there are other things that remain out of her grasp due to her injuries and trauma.

She is certain that she didn't see Cloud in Nibelheim at the time. But she is also certain that there must be more to it than just her recollections, especially since Cloud has deep knowledge of what went down.

The fact that Nibelheim was rebuilt and repopulated by actors impersonating the people she and Cloud had known since childhood was another thing that affected both of them badly.

I think that if Tifa had blurted out that Cloud wasn't there earlier, he'd have mentally unravelled even sooner. He wasn't ready to accept anything that would break the illusion he'd built up for himself. In the face of the inconsistencies that they came across during their travels, it was the thought of Tifa believing that he was Cloud that enabled him to hang on and keep going. I think if Tifa voiced doubts about his story it would have chipped away at that pillar of support and he'd have fallen apart.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

"I have to be the best or I don't deserve to be loved."

I have never got this vibe off Cloud. I don't think that's what his story is about at all.

 

[jeangl123]

For another, Tifa was so badly injured that she was out of it and almost died. That wasn't the first time that's happened to her; she was in that kind of condition back after her fall at the mountain bridge. She lost a significant portion of her memories that time and still couldn't remember everything that had actually happened.

Probably why had her have a conversation with Cloud in the Last Order.

I have never got this vibe off Cloud. I don't think that's what his story is about at all.

He was kind of like that in AC. He blames himself pretty hard for failing to save people he cares about.