Trace of Two Pasts novel discussion

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Their solution to Nibelheim really was the dumbest thing ever. All they needed to do was claim that the town was destroyed by monsters and that Sephiroth and Zack were killed in action in the process of defending it. They could then have openly rebuilt it "for the survivors".

 

[Makoeyes987]

There isn't a monster or group of monsters strong enough to kill Sephiroth and Zack simultaneously, two 1st Class SOLDIERs in a tiny town like Nibelheim.

That'd be like trying to cover up Superman's death to Doomsday by claiming he died in a tragic car accident which just so happened to level half of Metropolis.

If a roving band of monsters were strong enough to utterly raze a mountain town and murder the strongest man alive and a 1-C cohort, then that'd be news Shinra would have to make a new lie to explain away.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Between them Zack and Sephiroth managed to kill all the anti-SOLDIER monsters (which were unleashed on Nibelheim by evil Wutai!!) but the heroic effort ultimately cost them their lives. It's a better lie because it's better PR and doesn't involve secretly rebuilding Nibelheim and staffing it with play-actors. The Midgar public would find it easy to believe that a backwater village could be destroyed in the epic struggle between Sephiroth and the daikaiju. TBH Sephiroth is as much of a liability as an asset by this point, so better to get rid of him in a way that keeps his halo shiny. He is, after all, reported as "killed in action", so why not make the most of that? Something had to kill him. Did no reporter ask what?

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I'm sure they did. And probably got the equivalent of a non-answer. And no one is *that* stupid to poke around what is obviously a Shinra PR statement if they don't want to get killed themselves.

All Shinra would have to say is that Sephiroth and Zack were killed in action but managed to kill whatever it was that killed them *before* they succumbed to their wounds or something...

It is worth noting that Shinra is old hat at covering up SOLDIER deaths when no one *actually* died given how DG manages to get hands on SOLDIER personnel... no one probably even *blinked* at it given what the reported SOLDIER casualties must regularly look like...

 

[Tetsujin]

There isn't a monster or group of monsters strong enough to kill Sephiroth and Zack simultaneously, two 1st Class SOLDIERs in a tiny town like Nibelheim.

That'd be like trying to cover up Superman's death to Doomsday by claiming he died in a tragic car accident which just so happened to level half of Metropolis.

If a roving band of monsters were strong enough to utterly raze a mountain town and murder the strongest man alive and a 1-C cohort, then that'd be news Shinra would have to make a new lie to explain away.

...as opposed to Sephiroth officially being reported as KIA despite...apparently nothing of any significance having happened, nothing to see here move along?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I'm sure they did. And probably got the equivalent of a non-answer. And no one is *that* stupid to poke around what is obviously a Shinra PR statement if they don't want to get killed themselves.

All Shinra would have to say is that Sephiroth and Zack were killed in action but managed to kill whatever it was that killed them *before* they succumbed to their wounds or something...

It is worth noting that Shinra is old hat at covering up SOLDIER deaths when no one *actually* died given how DG manages to get hands on SOLDIER personnel... no one probably even *blinked* at it given what the reported SOLDIER casualties must regularly look like...

This is precisely my point. All Shinra needed to do was issue a press release: "Remote mountain village attacked by monsters genetically engineered by Wutai. Monsters driven off by the heroic efforts of Sephiroth and some random 1st class dude, who tragically sacrificed their lives in the struggle. Town so severely damaged that access is currently limited to rescue workers. Hope of finding anyone alive rapidly fading..."

 

[Tetsujin]

"The best lie is the one closest to the truth"

Meanwhile, Shinra's cover up department is like

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well "truth" is whatever Shinra wants it to be

They can manufacture reality, and they don't need to give explanations for anything. All they worry about is appearances. That's why they leave the story about SOLDIERs being "killed in action" nonexistent. Rather than craft an explanation that may be implausible, they simply refuse to acknowledge it whatsoever and craft reality to their liking. It's akin to how Soviet Russia simply made people disappear, edited records to erase their history, moved on as if they never existed and if you questioned it too much... You disappeared too. It's a flex of power and control over the masses.

Shinra even said Lazard, a suit who didn't even go into combat, was "killed in action." Given that Shinra makes people vanish on the daily, I doubt people who did have questions, probably knew better than to try and investigate it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Rather than craft an explanation that may be implausible ...

Any merchant or delivery worker who's ever done trade with the original Nibelheim: "The fuck?"

Shinra even said Lazard, a suit who didn't even go into combat, was "killed in action."

In fairness, he was present (to observe) during the operation at Fort Tamblin, so there's actual basis for him being in the vicinity of combat that even his subordinates would be likely recognize as valid upon receiving news he was KIA. Like Tets said, the best lie is the one closest to the truth.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well we know Shinra has exercised such complete and total control over what's perceived as "the truth" that their lies can be anything they want. Or they can just propagandize and memory hole someone.

Yeah, the odd merchant or curious citizen may question why Nibelheim suddenly has brand new residents but just like people knew better than to ask "hey, what happened to Trotsky?" No one is going to question Shinra or their narrative.

And if they do, they'll find out what happened first hand. It's why Genesis, Kalm and all the other atrocities are never mentioned or remembered. People survived Sector 7's destruction, even saw Shinra forces aid in it's destruction and it didn't change anything.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Mako, what you're describing is a system where people are ruled by fear. As Rufus observed, that wasn't President Shinra's way. He wanted a Shinra that was beloved, and his way was to throw money at confuddling the people so they never knew what was really going on. If Shinra has total control over 'the truth', and if nobody is going to question their narrative, then surely it is cheaper, easier, and infinitely less leaky to admit that Nibelheim was destroyed and Sephiroth killed "in a titanic struggle between good and evil", than to manufacture a huge cover-up. They acknowledge that Sephiroth was killed in action anyway, so even if they did have to "make up a new lie to explain that away", as you said, making up the new lie would not pose a challenge for them.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The President also throws people into Deepground, burns down villages, drops plates and summarily executes people deemed to know too much.

Shinra definitely rules by fear, they just don't unnecessarily flaunt that fact. But people know that if you cross Shinra, you get crossed out.

The primary reason they hid Nibelheim's destruction is because it helps perpetuate their appearance of total control over everything. SOLDIER has no weaknesses and doesn't lose. Just like Shinra goes to great lengths to hide anything that shows they may have made a mistake. They will never reveal any sort of weakness or disaster that happens on their watch because that would question their total control. Shinra is motivated by the desire to portray themselves as perfect and in complete control, because it helps secure the minds of the citizenry and stave off any criticism.

They couldn't hide their mako reactors blowing up, but they definitely can erase and hide catastrophes such as accidentally bombing an innocent village, or their own top SOLDIER going insane and committing a murder spree.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

And yet Zack, Sephiroth, Angeal, Genesis, and their boss Lazard are all reported as 'killed in action'. Seems like the general public know that SOLDIER does have weaknesses and can lose. This doesn't in any way contradict their heroic status: if you think about fighter pilots in WWI and II, they were also idolised for their skill, and seen as romantically tragic because they died in such large numbers. The public are used to SOLDIER suffering a high casualty rate, and so would accept without much question the scenario I described.

 

[Makoeyes987]

This isn't about SOLDIERs eventually dying. Of course, soldiers die in battle. But this is about keeping up appearances about what happened to a village in the mountains while hiding the fact Shinra's SOLDIER program was responsible for it being destroyed because their star flipped out. It's not just about hiding their death, its hiding the fact Shinra failed to protect and was the cause for a village's annihilation. Shinra never wants to admit any failure if they can help it. Hell, it's why they even hid the fact that the Shinra 26 launch was sabotaged by AVALANCHE. It's all about appearances and even President Shinra explains this fact.

 

[Eerie]

Is the general public even aware of what kind of transformation the SOLDIERs go through? I have my doubts about this, so if they think they're just normal humans, it's normal that they are killed in action, isn't it?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Well I don't see why telling everyone your SOLDIER heroically died in a battle against giant monsters that destroyed an entire town is a worse solution than secretly re-building the entire town and populating it with actors. The former is a much simpler lie that is easier to sustain. And given Shinra's propensity to blame Avalanche and Wutai for everything, it's kind of surprising they preferred to let the public think their space engineering department was incompetent rather than lay the blame for the rocket launch failure on terrorists.

 

[Makoeyes987]

This exchange encapsulates the world view and perspective towards power held by Shinra. The entire point of their elaborate manipulation of reality and truth is to convey an image of perfect strength and control.

"Shinra must show the world its power. It must regain the trust lost by AVALANCHE. And once more ensure the world's stability." The whole point of power and dominance isn't just exerting it, but projecting it and confirming that it's unshakeable and without weakness. That's what the President always believed in and went through great effort to maintain, even in the face of risk. Yes, it's wasteful but he obviously doesn't care because maintaining that image is the point. Shinra is perfect and that image of perfection maintained stability over the population. Letting the mask slip off and revealing that they failed to protect a village from "monsters" would be the complete opposite of that.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

If your super-soldiers are constantly dying in action and your space department can't even launch a rocket, you're not conveying an image of perfect strength and control. It's no wonder Rufus found his father so exasperating.

Somehow this argument has slid sideways. I started off observing that the whole Nibelheim cover-up wasn't the best way to deal with the situation, and you're replying with the argument that it's the Shinra way, which I never denied. My point is that Shinra's way is often really stupid and poorly thought out. It doesn't make them look like what they think it makes them look like. Rufus is smarter.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I mean, it must have worked in some way, since the world population completely trusts in Shinra and there's only the most minimal resistance among the mass population.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

The world population except for all the people in the slums who hate them and all the people who've joined Avalanche, and the people of Gongaga, and the people of Corel, etc...

 

[Makoeyes987]

Actually, most of the slums love Shinra. Haven't you listened to what they say in the Remake? Only a very small handful of slum dwellers actually hold outright hate for Shinra, and when they do vocalize that, other people always question why and seemingly just hold unwavering trust towards Shinra. It's only during the plate collapse that some of the slum dwellers begin questioning Shinra. And then in Chapter 14, Sector 5's slums are joining in with Shinra in booing and blaming AVALANCHE. So I'm not sure how you can say the slums "hate" Shinra.

As for the other locations, do you really think those small towns matter to Shinra? Corel is basically a wasteland now, and Gongaga is an isolated town in the booneys. They're nothing but sacrifices to Shinra's growth, and are largely forgotten about by the company and the world at large.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Shinra's reputation involves around the concept of "saving face". It's not just that they need to be in control, it's that they need to have an impeccable reputation of strength no one doubts while doing so. It's less about the *actual* strength and more about the *respect* that comes from having strength. Anything that threatens that respect is bad for Shinra.

Nibelhiem is a few different things to Shinra. It's got historical significance because it's where the first Nibel Reactor was built, and that is probably both a point of pride and company secrets. So loosing Nibelheim just based on that aspect of it would be "losing face". The Shinra Manor is also there and it's a location Hojo, a Shinra Executive, likes using for his own personal use. So Hojo has a *personal* interest in wanting to keep the Shinra Manor viable. That means it needs a nearby town for the personal living there to get supplies from. You essentially have a cooperate executive that *wants* to keep Nibelheim on the map in a way that doesn't draw people's attention to it.

Something like Banora is a bit different. Banora is something Shinra would like to *forget* about. It's where they were hiding a bunch of loose ends so the company could keep an eye on them so they *wouldn't* cause Shinra to loose face by talking about what they did for Shinra. Banora isn't a point of pride for Shinra, it's a place to take out the trash... and with Genesis in control of it, it's now a liability to Shinra. So Shinra does to Banora what it does for all liabilities, it gets rid of it.

You can use that same type of logic for Kalm (Shinra needs to save face), Corel (Shinra thinks it's a liability), etc. Those are really the two main paradigms Shinra operates from.

 

[jeangl123]

Is the general public even aware of what kind of transformation the SOLDIERs go through? I have my doubts about this, so if they think they're just normal humans, it's normal that they are killed in action, isn't it?

Seems like they are not that aware of the details based on Aerith and Zack's conversation about SOLDIER in CC.

Aerith: "They get some kind of special surgery, don't they?"
Zack: "So they say."

Does seem normal for them to be KIA.

From: Kunsel
Contents:
Got an announcement from General Affairs that you were killed in action. But those announcements are never true, are they?

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Is the general public even aware of what kind of transformation the SOLDIERs go through?

They know more than we'd think... It's just not... a common topic of discussion. TKAA Chapter 6 goes into it.

Soldier was the name given to Shin-Ra’s elite troops. Every child looked up to the Soldiers. At one point, I did too. But, it seems there were few who actually tried to become one. Maybe it was because of the weird rumour. People said that for them to acquire different abilities than ordinary people, their bodies were submerged in this special substance, or that they would spend days in tanks, soaking in the Mako energy.

It *seems* to be a known thing that mako exposure is involved in the process of making SOLDIERs. And people *do* look up to them. There also isn't a lot of people who want to *become* SOLDIERs though, which might explain the huge push of PR surrounding them...

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

They will never reveal any sort of weakness or disaster that happens on their watch because that would question their total control.

Shinra's reputation involves around the concept of "saving face".

How does the destruction of Sector 7 -- an enormous self-inflicted wound in the heart of their capital city, wiping out approximately 1/8 of the entire metropolis's population -- lend itself either to saving face or to a veneer of maintaining ironclad order? It doesn't, so these notions are picked and chosen as they suit the needs or unpredictable whims of the moment rather than because they're in accordance with a particular long-term gameplan ...