Watchmen

[Tetsujin]

I have only seen the movie so allow me to ask:

What is the squid?

...and why does it make me think of Cthulhu.

 

[Max Payne]

I have only seen the movie so allow me to ask:

What is the squid?

.

It's not in the movie, and even telling you about the squid and it's purpose would still spoil much of the movie dood.

Just go see it fgt.

 

[Ⓐaron]

That was the goddamn point. It was supposed to be this huge shock that would force the entire world's attention to it.

And honestly, it's not like it came from nowhere. The book had a huge buildup to it, with a bunch of clue leading to it's revelation.

I don't buy that it couldn't work in the film at all. All of the random bizarre bullshit in the film, and a giant genetically engineered monster squid is suppose to be too extreme? Whatever, sounds like just looking for an excuse to not include something they don't like.

Spoiler

There's still the sense that something is off in the book with the island and the psychic Ronald Deschaines and the missing talent personalities and everything else. You get this vaguely sinister feeling of unease beforehand - there's certainly no hint beforehand that it's going to lead to something so entirely off the wall, but you still get the impression that there's a conspiracy going on. Without the explanation of the missing entertainment personalities and the dead psychic and the ominous island, there's no indication that such a thing would even be possible in-universe. Sure it comes out of nowhere but at least it's explainable.

as for the "random bizarre bullshit," none of it's a major plot point except for Manhattan's superpowers, which as the catalyst for the story don't really need to make sense anyway.

Tet: The squid is

Spoiler

a gigantic alien being modeled on the work of various personalities in the entertainment industry and infused with psychic powers. Upon being released in New York it instantly kills around three million people and gives others nightmares for weeks to come; it's interpreted by the world at large as an alien attack.

It is pretty Lovecraftian, and I'm sure it's intended to be both by Moore and by

Spoiler

Veidt

.

Dacon: He has seen the movie dood, he said it in the post you quoted he hasn't read the comic, that's all. Though he should.

 

[Alex]

It's what the movie needs moar of. Needs moar squid.

 

[Masamune]

Isn't the DVD going to have the original ending??

 

[Max Payne]

Isn't the DVD going to have the original ending??

Maybe? Who knows.

And sorry V/Tet brainfart.

Haven't been sleeping much.

 

[Ⓐaron]

that'll do it

 

[Alex]

It has just about everything else though, so yeah sure, why not?

 

[Ⓐaron]

That would be pretty badass I have to admit. Though I still would prefer a non-truncated version of Manhattan's confrontation with

Spoiler

Veidt

.

 

[Max Payne]

Spoiler

There's still the sense that something is off in the book with the island and the psychic Ronald Deschaines and the missing talent personalities and everything else. You get this vaguely sinister feeling of unease beforehand - there's certainly no hint beforehand that it's going to lead to something so entirely off the wall, but you still get the impression that there's a conspiracy going on. Without the explanation of the missing entertainment personalities and the dead psychic and the ominous island, there's no indication that such a thing would even be possible in-universe. Sure it comes out of nowhere but at least it's explainable.

as for the "random bizarre bullshit," none of it's a major plot point except for Manhattan's superpowers, which as the catalyst for the story don't really need to make sense anyway.

Why wouldn't it be possible in universe Aaron? Manhattan basically defies all laws of nature. And I always saw all of the clues and shit left behind leading to some huge catastrophe, so I wasn't all that surprised by it in the end.

I still think it could have worked just as well as their little "scapegoating Manhattan" plot too.

 

[Ⓐaron]

My point is that in the film the clues as to what the nature of the catastrophe would be aren't there, so there's no way anyone would buy

Spoiler

Adrian being able to create what looks like a gigantic alien attack leaving three million dead, simply because the means by which he does it haven't been established. Framing Manhattan takes a minute of exposition; working in all the strands to make Veidt's ability to simulate an alien attack plausible would have taken twenty or more.

Without all those clues it would just seem like diabolus ex machina.

 

[Max Payne]

That's my point Aaron, they could have made it work. But they didn't make the effort if the film is any indication.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

I finally figured out how to work those spoiler tags, dude. I thought you all just randomly stopped completing your sentences.

I meant too jarring to the audience based on what's established, Dacon-baby. Also as a visual. As an audience, when you read a book/comic you are far more charitable in terms of suspension of belief - not so much when it comes to movies, unless you're aiming for Cloverfield shit. As such a giant fuckin squid in the middle of the city out of fuckin nowhere is just fuckin retarded.

Also, the point of the ending wasn't the squid, or the means by which NY is destroyed, so much as the shit Adrian had to pull in order to create his stronger, loving world and whether that's right. How you shock the world is not as important as the WHY and the aftermath. So I'm not bothered by the lack of CGI tentacles.
So yes, maybe they could have made it work, but it wasn't as important, certainly not enough to wrestle with studios over length.

 

[Masamune]

I actually liked Veidt in the movie. Then I haven't read the graphic novel, so I'm no purist.

What do you think about the whole 'world wouldn't unite against Manhattan because they knew he was invincible' argument?

 

[Max Payne]

I meant too jarring to the audience based on what's established, Dacon-baby. Also as a visual. As an audience, when you read a book/comic you are far more charitable in terms of suspension of belief - not so much when it comes to movies, unless you're aimming for Cloverfield shit.

It's supposed to be jarring, period. It's supposed to be this big shocking event, to the audience and the people in the story. I'll have to disagree on the suspension of disbelief bit, there's not exactly some set standard for that, and I'd say it's about the same for books, movies and comics. It all depends on the viewer and what they're willing to accept in their media, and if current trends and popular franchises are any indication, there's quite a bit of material they're willing to have in their movies.

I doubt a bunch of clues leading to a giant exploding squid meant to be an alien, would have been oh so much more mind boggling than a giant blue man with beyond supernatural powers, with three eyes and an exposed penis for the majority of the film.

As such a giant fuckin squid in the middle of the city out of fuckin nowhere is just fuckin retarded.

Within the context of the story, it isn't at all.

So yes, maybe they could have made it work, but it wasn't as important, certainly not enough to wrestle with studios over length.

That just comes down to opinion. Moore had the squid present for an important reason,and I'd go with him on the story he wrote every time. I'd say keeping that story as close to the book is much more of a concern than a shitty studios' blase opinion on the film's length. Hell the studio didn't even understand the book in the least if Synder's reaction to the original material they gave him to work with is any indication.

His intent was to keep Watchmen as close to the source material as possible, but he wasn't able to do so due to the many obstacles in his way, and I can live with that.

I'm not going to argue and say the film doesn't work for what it is, but I'm saying the book works much better.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Spoiler: (SPOILER AND POSSIBLY TL;DR)

[2009/04/03|17:34:17] DaigotheKing: I don't get this preconception that the squid is "too jarring" or that books and comics have much more leniency when it comes to suspension of disbelief
[2009/04/03|17:34:53] Aaron: It isn't if you have the knowledge that psychics exist and that a shitload of entertainment personalities had disappeared
[2009/04/03|17:35:09] Aaron: and all the other stuff that was revealed in the runup that would've taken too much exposition to insert
[2009/04/03|17:35:22] DaigotheKing: what?
[2009/04/03|17:35:37] DaigotheKing: no it wouldn't have man
[2009/04/03|17:36:04] DaigotheKing: 2 minutes every now and than to insert the clues that something sinister was going on, on that island would have been more than enough exposition
[2009/04/03|17:36:25] Aaron: True enough but it would've still been a lot more exposition than the manhattan thing required
[2009/04/03|17:36:46] Aaron: since manhattan being framed for stuff was *already a part of the plot* anyway, it's why he left earth
[2009/04/03|17:36:47] DaigotheKing: the Manhattan thing just has much less impact on the narrative if you ask me
[2009/04/03|17:36:53] Aaron: it definitely alters it somewhat
[2009/04/03|17:37:16] Aaron: and I'm not 100% thrilled with it, but honestly, it's one of the less bothersome changes I think
[2009/04/03|17:38:20] DaigotheKing: it's doesn't have as much of impact, I mean, you get a strong reaction to the dead alien that killed millions of people, and Laurie and John walking throught the city with their mangled corspes imposed on a backdrop of the gruesome body of some monstrous creature
[2009/04/03|17:38:40] Aaron: Yeah I definitely agree that the lack of gore after the squid gets impaled is a weakness
[2009/04/03|17:38:46] Aaron: actually I think they screwed up with that
[2009/04/03|17:38:56] Aaron: because earlier parts of the film are shockingly gory in comparison to the comic
[2009/04/03|17:39:08] Aaron: whereas the aftermath, in comparison to the comic, isn't gory at all
[2009/04/03|17:39:57] DaigotheKing: there's just a far less emotional impact with the manhattan plot than there is with the squid.
[2009/04/03|17:40:12] DaigotheKing: god my sentences are retarded today
[2009/04/03|17:40:29] Aaron: i'll grant you that the emotional impact might be lessened
[2009/04/03|17:40:36] DaigotheKing: might be?
[2009/04/03|17:40:36] Aaron: but again I think that's because of the way they handled the scenes
[2009/04/03|17:40:39] DaigotheKing: MIGHT?
[2009/04/03|17:41:00] Aaron: I think the manhattan thing could've been as shocking if people had been impaled on streetlamps or whatever
[2009/04/03|17:41:21] DaigotheKing: but it wasn't
[2009/04/03|17:41:25] Aaron: and there hadn't been scenes of senseless gore already, like rorschach attacking a dude with a fucking meat cleaver
[2009/04/03|17:41:30] Aaron: Yeah I agree, they screwed that part up
[2009/04/03|17:41:32] DaigotheKing: it was just "OH MANHATTAN DID IT LOL"
[2009/04/03|17:42:00] Aaron: the mechanics are still pretty similar though, it's still adrian going way out of his way to implicate others in a plot that kills millions of people
[2009/04/03|17:42:16] Aaron: it's just that in this case it actually implicates an actual human who has nothing to do with it rather than aliens
[2009/04/03|17:42:27] Aaron: what they screwed up was the execution of the way they presented it
[2009/04/03|17:42:52] Aaron: the devastation of NYC should have been more graphic, earlier scenes shouldn't have been as graphic
[2009/04/03|17:43:43] Aaron: it also lost some of the impact because you don't see the newsvendor and the psychiatrist and the kid and all the others enough earlier in the film
[2009/04/03|17:43:51] Aaron: but that's probably going to be fixed with the director's cut

 

[Max Payne]

Spoiler

The backdrop of Adrian's plot was still intact, but I still find the outcome of the scheme in the book to have much more of an emotional and narrative impact.

I don't know about you guys, but seeing hordes of men, women, and children's ragged corspes strewn across city streets, with the added imagery of this hideous creature's body strewn across buildings in the background, is a much more moving scene one explosion followed by "MANHATTAN DID IT".

I thought the buildup to it was masterful, scenes like the Comedian breaking down when learning of Veidt's plot, and the various clues like the dead scientists where very well handled.

The imagery is much more disturbing, and relevant to what comes after. Blaming Manhattan comes off as lazy, and I found it to be sort of a cop out. Humans joining hands together in the face of a common threat is much more appealing to me, than cowering in fear from Manhattan because he's oh so 1337.

As Aaron said, maybe I'd feel differently if the exposition was handled better, instead of the big rush into the climax. Many crucial scenes meant to make the finale much more impacting were strangely absent, there's less of a connection to the ordeal on a whole, and the unnecessary use of gore in some scenes, and the strange absence of it in the most crucial was just odd.

That said I think it's a good effort at an adaptation of the source material, and I look forward to seeing the extended cut combined with Tales of the Black Freighter. Perhaps then the film will be much more satisfying to me as a whole, and I'll lament the absence of such a concept from the comment less.

We'll have to see.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Spoiler

I agree that that stuff affects the emotional impact, I just think changing the squid to Manhattan is more or less irrelevant to most of it. Note that the Comedian's breakdown was in the film as well.

 

[Max Payne]

Spoiler

I agree that that stuff affects the emotional impact, I just think changing the squid to Manhattan is more or less irrelevant to most of it. Note that the Comedian's breakdown was in the film as well.

Spoiler

Yeah, but it just didn't seem the same.

I think that changing the squid to Manhattan changes much of what made the scene so unique. Manhattan isn't some grotesque otherworldly creature than invokes the same kind of disturbing terror as some unknown element that comes out of nowhere and decimates a populous.

Manhattan isn't as threatening or disturbing if you're judging from a glance. It just became another case of someone being framed and people benefiting from it that just did not appeal to me. The plot of Veidt exhausting his resources, manpower, to completely manufacture a threat to mankind, coupled with a wealth of theatrics made for quite an experience.

But that's just personal opinion.

 

[Ⓐaron]

makes sense, but I'm just saying it wouldn't have been possible without extending the length of an already extended film. Don't get me wrong, there are a few things they did include that I probably would've cut to make room for other stuff (mostly the Nite Owl sex scene being so long), but even then that would've only trimmed maybe a minute or two off, and to establish the same effect you got in the comic would've required at least an additional ten. Let's face it, the squid was destined to be left out, sadly.

 

[Max Payne]

There's plenty of scenes that were handled poorly if you ask me, so poorly that they didn't need to be in the film. I don't know why the changes the scene where Rorschach confronts the kidnapper were made. They actually made the scene more graphic for some bizarre reason.

Yeah, wtf was with the super long Fat Owl and Useless Specter sex scene.

 

[Alex]

Watchmen didn't need any more blood tbph

 

[Ⓐaron]

There's plenty of scenes that were handled poorly if you ask me, so poorly that they didn't need to be in the film. I don't know why the changes the scene where Rorschach confronts the kidnapper were made. They actually made the scene more graphic for some bizarre reason.

Yeah, that scene was extremely irksome to me.

 

[Alex]

I was miffed at the fact they cut the 'I closed my eyes, it was Rorschach who opened them' line :/

 

[Ⓐaron]

honestly, just about every alteration they made to that chapter of the GN was unneeded. They should've just left it as it was. It's not even like any of the stuff they cut/altered saved a substantial amount of time.