What is the business of post-meteor Shinra?

C

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
I guess what I'm confused about is why it's so objectionable to y'all that I think that someone doing suspicious things is suspicious. I never claimed he was an emotionless robot or a coward, so I dunno where all that comes from.

But y'all are saying to me that I should be realistic about Rufus' motivations and what's possible, and then in the same breath telling me that the massive horrifying opportunities for corruption in the mass production of a painkiller drug for the terminally ill won't happen because the four Turks will be able to stop it, and that the Turks are secretly pacifists offscreen that would never dream of silencing Rufus' critics with violence. Y'all are only applying realism where it makes Rufus look good and not applying it when it makes him look bad.

I'm not allowed to draw implications from the fact that the Turks dish out punishment beatings without even checking if they have the right guy, or decide to violently kidnap Evan and Kyrie because they want Rufus to talk to them instead of just making a phonecall. And silencing people that say things you don't like is a massive red flag no matter how it's done.

There might be an argument about Rufus hiding JENOVA from Cloud, if not a good one, but there's none for leaving a phone message of 'I've got work for you' instead of 'watch yourself, three Silver haired mako enhanced people are on the loose, they might be coming for you'.
 
Makoeyes987

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
It didn't happen.

Within the context of the narrative, and all information disseminated thus far, we have no evidence of malfeasance or malevolence from Rufus.

Advent Children happened. Case of Shinra happened. The Kids Are Alright happened. The stories told thus far give clear evidence of redemption and growth from a cocky corporate authoritarian to a cocky, crafty yet properly humbled and humanized leader hoping to rebuild the mess his family's corporation left across the planet.

Compare this development to Vayne Solidor. Vayne conquerors Rabinastre and promises peace, respect and democratic self rule for the conquered kingdom. He then proceeds to enforce martial law upon Ashe and her team's reveal.

He proclaims his respect and love for his house, then proceeds to murder his father for the throne. He speaks of respecting and being proud of Arcadia's commitment to democracy, then dissolves the Senate, executes those who oppose him, and executes the one Judge who opposed his blatant coup (using said Judge's best friend to do the deed no less). He says he wants peace yet proceeds to build a superweapon to conquer the entire continent and when his younger brother entreats him to stop, he turns his fists towards him so he may beat him to death in battle.

Then he goes, "... But why?" At the end. :monster:

Vayne's duplicitous nature is illustrated by the contradiction of his words and his actions. He speaks of peace yet kills. He speaks of democracy and makes himself emperor. He speaks of love yet willingly kills his father and would kill his younger kid brother.

Rufus is a cocky, clever bastard but his actions speak to his nature. Rufus may hold ambitions beyond helping the world. He may wish to consolidate power for himself. He may harbor thoughts of revenge. But that's simply speculation based on the fact he's Shinra and was a grade A dick in FFVII. His actions and depiction post-FFVII show growth and him being a better person. Until something shows otherwise, that's the reality.
 
LicoriceAllsorts

LicoriceAllsorts

Donator
Clem, sometimes I think you expect people to forget all the history they have with each other and act in totally rational ways.

OK, now suppose I'm Cloud. One day out of the blue I get a phone call from one of the Turks telling me that I should watch my back and that they think maybe Sephiroth isn't as dead as I'd hoped. Am I going to take this information at face value? Am I going to say, "Hey, Reno, thanks for letting me know that."? Isn't it much more likely that I'm going to wonder what kind of fast one they're trying to pull on me now? It simply isn't possible for these people to be direct with each other. There isn't enough trust on either side for that. Cloud wants nothing to do with Shinra, and who can blame him? Rufus' way was effective because Cloud got to see the threat for himself, and arrived at Healen slightly more disposed to talk than he might otherwise have been. If Reno hadn't opened his big mouth, triggering all Cloud's justifiable suspicions, and if they had been able to put their heads together to come up with a plan that played to everybody's strengths, they might have been able to deal with the Remnant threat much more quickly.

You're allowed to think whatever you like about Rufus and the Turks, of course. Just as I'm allowed to think there's something a little bit suspect about the way Reeve eases himself right back into power after Meteor. But I don't expect anybody to agree with me because that's not really how he's written.
 
Makoeyes987

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
To be fair, Cloud probably would have taken the warning at face value.

Then he'd storm Healin.

Then he'd beat the shit out of the Turks.

Then he'd grab Rufus by his collar and demand he spill everything he knows about Sephiroth and who those Silver Haired Men were.

Then the box labeled "JENOVA TOP SECRET" in Rufus' lap would fall to the ground.

Then Cloud would stare in shock at the box and glare at Rufus.

Then Rufus would laugh as tries to explain this misunderstanding.

....Then Kadaj and the others storm into the room with a smile.

.....Then Reunion. :monster:
 
Makoeyes987

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Post Credit Scene.

Sephiroth impales Cloud with the Masamune, and goes. "Cloud, I'll never be a memory."

Cloud coughs up blood then goes, "Well with a sword THAT long, how could I EVER forget you sticking it in me?"

Laugh track plays as Sephiroth cracks up and throws his body against a wall. "On you knees... I want you to beg for forgiveness... FOR BEING THAT CORNY!"

Rufus sighs as he bleeds out on the floor. "That's all folks...."

Fade to black
 
Rose_of_Night

Rose_of_Night

Pro Adventurer
The way I understood (which may be flawed, since the OTWTAS I read was a spanish fan translation from an english fantranslation:mon:), the WRO was a civil organization focused on reconstruction, and that's why they allowed children in there. On Case of Denzel, Reeve outright tells Denzel the WRO was now an army, and children aren't allowed anymore.

Edited to add: And now that I think about it, he says on the OG that he was organizing evacuation efforts on Midgar the night of Meteorfall, that would explain why the people trusted him to organize reconstruction too
 
Rydeen

Rydeen

In-KWEH-dible
Makoeyes987 said:
Rufus is a cocky, clever bastard but his actions speak to his nature. Rufus may hold ambitions beyond helping the world. He may wish to consolidate power for himself. He may harbor thoughts of revenge. But that's simply speculation based on the fact he's Shinra and was a grade A dick in FFVII. His actions and depiction post-FFVII show growth and him being a better person. Until something shows otherwise, that's the reality.
Click to expand...

To nitpick, it is canon that he wishes to consolidate power for himself. You actually posted this 11 years ago:

Rufus Shinra and the Turks Character Bios from Dengeki PS3 said:
After the Meteor crisis, even though he is infected with Geostigma, he gathers the surviving members of the Turks and from behind the scenes works towards the revival of the world. He is honest in this motive. However, he is also not a man who would stop there. In the unseen corners of his heart, perhaps he sees a clear vision of the world restored, and under the control of the Shinra Company…
Click to expand...

I do think Rufus is written to be mysterious, so I can understand why people would doubt his motives, especially given his history in the OG and BC. He also has a private/guarded demeanor, and when he directly shows compassion toward an individual he tends to downplay it to where it is easier to miss, probably to avoid becoming flustered.

However, I don't think his desire for power necessarily makes his unscrupulous. Flawed, perhaps. As you said, the evidence from ACC, CoS, and Lateral Biography strongly supports the notion that he is actively trying to be a good person, in complete odds with the environment he spent nearly his entire life immersed in. I like to think that Elena would kick his ass if he started to lose sight of that.
 
C

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
@Lic:
If he's trying to foster trust, telling the truth about the nature of the threat (plus, y'know, not having his subordinates attack Cloud off the bat) might have helped with that.

I do believe Cloud would take it at face value. He tries to question Rufus about why these two are talking about 'Mother' and Rufus deflects it instead of being honest. If you want to foster trust, start by being trustworthy. This is also part of where I question Rufus' motives, because he seems to want to gain people's trust by giving the appearance of being trustworthy (look, I'm redeemed, honest, and if you don't believe me I'll send the Turks to silence you) rather than getting his reputation by being trustworthy, by telling the truth and being reliable and getting people to trust him by earning their trust.

I didn't get that from nowhere, it's how they're acting. And the idea of dealing an addictive painkiller to vulnerable people is absolutely terrifying to me, because that's very dangerous even if it's done in good faith. Accompanied by the other shady things these people do, it becomes even more scary.

I don't question your Reeve headcanons, I don't think I ever did, and if so I apologise. (I did question it for storytelling reasons of lacking tension
, but not in and of itself as far as I know.) If I'm wrong, PM me by all means. But when I draw inferences that reflect badly on certain characters, such as that silencing people that speak out against you by sending Turks to deal with them probably doesn't mean something good, y'all don't like it, and I get told I'm wrong to make that interpretation. You're entitled to your headcanons, but I'm entitled to mine.

Advent Children happened. Case of Shinra happened. The Kids Are Alright happened. The stories told thus far give clear evidence of redemption and growth from a cocky corporate authoritarian to a cocky, crafty yet properly humbled and humanized leader hoping to rebuild the mess his family's corporation left across the planet.
Click to expand...

Yes, and I'm drawing on all of those things. I'm not making up that Rufus sends Turks to silence people that speak out against him. I'm not making up how manipulative and dishonest he is in AC. I'm not making up how the Turks act in TKAA, in which they use Kyrie asking them to call a doctor as an excuse to kidnap her and Evan, beat people that cross them, and conscript people into forced labour. Those things don't incline me towards trust.

I get it, y'all think differently. Fine. But my interpretation is not out of nowhere or unreasonable on the basis of what we have.
 
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Erotic Materia

Erotic Materia

[CONFUSED SCREAMING]
Erotic Materia said:
I never before thought about what Gil actually looks like, and now it's killing me. I know it's a gold-colored coin, and that's it.

BUT I HAVE QUESTIONS!

-Are they all single denomination?
-If there are multiple denominations, are they still made from the same base material/all coins?
-Is there an insignia on it?
-Are people running around with medieval-style coinpurses, jangling all over the place?
-If not, where do they keep their massive stores of coins?
-Oh my god there's something very wrong with this game
-WHY ISN'T THERE MORE INFORMATION ON THIS?
Click to expand...
GUYS. I KNOW MORE STUFF.
20200226_073514.jpg
Gil DOES have a paper denomination! I mean...I don't know how canon "The Kids Are Alright" is, but I feel it's generally accepted as such.
 
Rydeen

Rydeen

In-KWEH-dible
Erotic Materia said:
GUYS. I KNOW MORE STUFF.
View attachment 4857
Gil DOES have a paper denomination! I mean...I don't know how canon "The Kids Are Alright" is, but I feel it's generally accepted as such.
Click to expand...

:moar:
But now I wanna know who controls the global banking system (assuming everyone uses Gil). Maybe the governments were all a part of a coalition that was controlled by Shinra, which remained intact when Shinra fell.

It's hard to imagine the Shinra conglomerate being the only thing that kept the world together. That kind of power vacuum would have resulted in a lot more chaos than what we see post-meteor, so I like to think that local governments did have a fair degree of autonomy and had treaties/coalitions with each other to fall back on.

I'd caught wind from the leaks that someone from the story is referenced or appears in the remake, so I consider it canon at this point.
 
LicoriceAllsorts

LicoriceAllsorts

Donator
Unless the governments have state banks (e.g. Bank of England), the banks will control themselves just like any other business. If Shinra owns the banks, Shinra controls the banks. Governments set some fiscal policy and may regulate some aspects of banking practice, but they don't run the banks. What I want to know is, who's the issuing authority for the gil? Since gil is paper, what is its value based on? What guarantees that the gil will hold its value, what supports public confidence in the value of gil? Is it Shinra's equivalent of Canadian Tire Money, that somehow evolved to be the global currency, the US dollar of their planet if you will, as Shinra expanded to replace the function of government in key regions?
 
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