What should have changed that didn't?

[Shademp]

I think if they had switched to Avalanche in the middle of the battle it would have ruined the atmosphere. But we don't see the Shera anywhere during the battle, so maybe Sephiroth's negative lifestream and cloudy weather and everything prevented Avalanche from swooping in there to help. Possibly they didn't even see Cloud being impaled.

 

[Makoeyes987]

When the fuck was Cloud stabbed in the shoulder? He was impaled through the chest.

And they stood back when Cloud entered the fray because Cloud's the strongest and they knew he was going to handle it. I thought that was obvious given how he was the one that broke Bahamut Tremor's face, and was able to pierce its armor, slicing it in half.

In the scene where they showed the Negative Lifestream and storm clouds gathering around the Shinra Building, and all the people in Edge reacting to it, along with Marlene and Denzel, they could've shown the airship and the other party members flying away or reacting to the turn of events. That probably would've been a good spot to show that.

Really, you don't need to show it though, since giant tendrils of black lifestream and lightning makes it pretty apparent that Sephiroth closed off the battle so Cloud is isolated, but it would've been nice expository stuff to show their reaction to being unable to get close.

 

[holdthesun]

but it would've been nice expository stuff to show their reaction to being unable to get close.

and that's my point. Having none of that is just a sign of bad writting.
I'm still waiting for my ACCC copy, thank you very much.

 

[I Am Not Me]

When the fuck was Cloud stabbed in the shoulder? He was impaled through the chest.

And they stood back when Cloud entered the fray because Cloud's the strongest and they knew he was going to handle it. I thought that was obvious given how he was the one that broke Bahamut Tremor's face, and was able to pierce its armor, slicing it in half.

Cloud was stabbed in the shoulder in AC. In ACC, he was impaled through the chest.

Yes, yes, we all know Cloud is the strongest and all that, but if SE was going to include the AVALANCHE anywhere, then they could have shown a bit more teamwork between them and Cloud. Not just all that hand-reaching, flying thing. I understand the part with Sephiroth, but the one with Bahamut wasn't very satisfying. I know it's Cloud's movie, but it wouldn't hurt to see more interaction between him and and his comrades.

This is just us being unsatisfied with the present AVALANCHE exposure. No need to be angry.

 

[BOEG]

Bullocks it's poor writing. It's a movie, not a sixty hour RPG. By the time the final battle rolls around, most people, unsurprisingly, want to see Cloud and Sephiroth, not EVEN MORE useless exposition between AVALANCHE in the Shera. I'm all for nostalgia, but we don't need six scenes for them to tell us it's Cloud battle and they're useless.

Hell, you knew it was Cloud's battle as soon as the title of the movie appeared next to him in the Wasteland in the beginning. Maybe I have premature ejaculation problems or something, but when the Sephiroth battle started, the LAST thing I wanted to see was sixteen scenes of AVALANCHE and little kids talking about the sky. Which was what we ultimately got.

 

[Makoeyes987]

^BOEG brings up a damn good point.

It is pretty damn obvious the others aren't going to get involved in the fight and have no place for it. Especially since the negative lifestream and storm are surrounding Cloud and Sephiroth, thus keeping others OUT.

Them stating the obvious isn't needed.

 

[holdthesun]

Bullocks it's poor writing. It's a movie, not a sixty hour RPG.

ok... so adding a 3-8 second clip showing what happened to Sierra after the storm is gonna turn the whole thing to shit.
It's a movie, as you said yourself, and if it wants to live up to a good standard it has to work like one. Don't remember that a plothole-free script ever hurt a good movie.

By the time the final battle rolls around, most people, unsurprisingly, want to see Cloud and Sephiroth, not EVEN MORE useless exposition between AVALANCHE in the Shera. I'm all for nostalgia, but we don't need six scenes for them to tell us it's Cloud battle and they're useless.

ok... fanservice over plot clarity and consistency, all the way! We don't need more "scenes for them to tell us it's Cloud battle", we need, in this case (and among other things), a scene that clearly shows what happened to the Sierra and the crew, which were given a fair amount of focus in recent scenes. They just ignore the thing was ever there and went straight to fanservice. That's a plot problem, whether you wanted to see a scene like that or not.

 

[BOEG]

Why do you need to know what happened to it? That's fucking stupid. It's there before the fight, its there after the fight, it's an airship. My vote goes on "it flew away."

But hey. What do I know?

 

[Makoeyes987]

There's nothing to explain. If Sephiroth summons a storm that completely surrounds Cloud and himself and further compounds it with negative Lifestream, it's pretty obvious the reason no one else is there is because they're being shut out. That's obvious. It doesn't really need to be spoonfed.

Hell, while Cloud fought Kadaj, they flew away a good distance. That's answer enough right there too.

 

[holdthesun]

Why do you need to know what happened to it? That's fucking stupid. It's there before the fight, its there after the fight, it's an airship. My vote goes on "it flew away."

There's nothing to explain. If Sephiroth summons a storm that completely surrounds Cloud and himself and further compounds it with negative Lifestream, it's pretty obvious the reason no one else is there is because they're being shut out. That's obvious. It doesn't really need to be spoonfed.

Let‘s make something clear, ok? it doesn‘t require a lot of grey matter to understand it was shut out somehow. The thing is, The Sierra in that scene, along with the crew onboard, becomes a character, and if they emphasize it‘s significance, not to the scene, but to the story, they can‘t just neglect it whenever they feel they need to show more of their falshy stuff.

 

[BOEG]

It's not "falshy stuff," xD, it's the final battle. You tell me what takes more precedence: Cloud vs. Sephiroth---the climax of the whole film, or the Shera? If you want to be a real prude about it, you said it was introduced in the scene, and therefore it's a character...

It was introduced in the Kadaj battle, addressed in the Kadaj battle, and made it's exit in the Kadaj battle. The Sephiroth battle was an entirely different scene. No explanation needed.

 

[holdthesun]

It's not "falshy stuff," xD, it's the final battle.

I just used a generic term for the sake of the arguement. Yes it's a climactic scene granted, but adding a little diversity, as proposed, would not have hurt, but rather benifited the plot.

made it's exit in the Kadaj battle.

maybe that exit was more evident to you than it was to me, but point taken.

 

[BOEG]

Well, Barret said he'd give Cloud ten minutes, then Cloud proceded to royally fuck Kadaj, Sephiroth emerged, summoned the Negative Lifestream, and by then, the battle barriers were imposed.

 

[holdthesun]

and by then, the battle barriers were imposed.

In a better script, this is were the character (technically speaking) Sierra, should have been given some brief focus. Because, this character is present in the scene (regardless of distance) and is important to the scene, being Cloud's friends who support him and in this case, DEPEND on his victory. So if they care enough to emphasize that, it ain't right to just drop that emphasis in such an abrupt manner as it happened.

 

[Makoeyes987]

...Again, if they pulled back and are *gone* from the scene before the Kadaj fight even finished, where is the emphasis? Their moment concluded and they LEFT. It was all about Cloud and him fighting his opponents by himself. They exited the stage.

 

[holdthesun]

...Again

You're missing the point I'm making Mako Eyes, and keep repeating something that doesn't counteract my argument, but simply reinforces a definite flaw in the script.

Yes, I understand that they moved out of the scene, and we switched to a new scene, which in my view neglects the importance of AVALANCHE that was emphasized moments before. (I'm using 'emphasis' in a conceptual sense as it relates to the story, not what you can & cannot see on screen). They are his only friends, support, family if you will... and that's an IMPORTANT element in the story. It's his fight, but it's no mere fight damn it, it's the climactic sequence in the movie that pretty much determines the fate of everything, as well as a life or death situation for ole' Spiky. So, just ignoring the importance of AVALANCHE at that point in the story, at least in exerting some acknowledgement for what he is going through or what the heck is going on is just indicative of poor story telling.

I don't want to argue with you for the sake of arguing Mako Eyes, so if this is where it’s getting, both of us better bail, since this time typing could be better spent I’m sure.

 

[Makoeyes987]

How is that important when the scenes are about Cloud and him combating his opponents, and not expository banter regarding how they're his "family" and shit? You're putting emphasis and context in the scene that doesn't exist. It was never talking about how they related to him or if they were support. It was a scene that explained they were pulling back to let Cloud handle the remnant of Sephiroth, because he was the strongest and it was his fight. It was a scene where they basically said, "we're leaving now because Cloud has it covered, and it's a remnant of Sephiroth so it's his business" and then they go on.

That's the element of the scene. They acknowledge the importance of the scene by entrusting it to him and bowing out. There's nothing else.

 

[thuthuy62]

She's getting herself ready to have spirit sex with Zack now

That's wat Tifa's having wit Cloud ? That's good !

 

[holdthesun]

How is that important when the scenes are about Cloud and him combating his opponents not expository banter regarding how they're his "family" and shit?

*sign* because it's important to the story as a whole. By your logic scenes like Denzel remeniscing about his past would be just as trivial in the Bahamut fight. I never said these scene's should be "expository banter regarding how they're his 'family' and shit", read into it damn it! I said it was always in the context of the story, and what ever is important to Cloud, should be, plot-wise, important to them, because that is an integral part of the story. And, if they gonna trust him with Sephiroth, at least be responsible enough to watch the fight in case something goes wrong.

You're putting emphasis and context in the scene that doesn't exist.

I'm putting emphasis on the context, not on "the scene that doesn't exist".

It was never talking about how they related to him or if they were support. It was a scene that explained they were pulling back to let Cloud handle the remnant of Sephiroth, because he was the strongest and it was his fight. It was a scene where they basically said, "we're leaving now because Cloud has it covered, and it's a remnant of Sephiroth so it's his business" and then they go on.

lmao pffft oh ok, so let me rephrase what is it that you're basically saying - discussion among AVALANCHE on the Sierra while Cloud fights Kadaj:

"Hey guys, guess what, the dude Cloud is fighting right now is proly gonna turn into Sephiroth soon, you now, the guy that could turn the whole world to shit if he willded... but what the heck, Cloud has that covered. So who's hungry here?"

They acknowledge the importance of the scene by entrusting it to him and bowing out. There's nothing else.

ok... so they're all - "yeah, this is pretty important Cloud, we have confidence in you tho, so much that we won't even bother to watch you fight Sephiroth, because NOTHING can go wrong, even though we don't know shit about what Sephiroth will be capable of this time around". Wow, talk about being responsible when the whole world is in jeopardy, as is Cloud.


I see you're a few steps away from becoming a devil's advocate buddy...

 

[Dark and Divine]

I don't think they predicted that Kadaj would turn into Sephiroth, despite Vincent's statements.

They probably though that Cloud would handle it and then all would be over.

I think that not even Cloud predicted that outcome, since he looks quite surprised when Kadaj was able to pull out the stunt that allowed him to fuse with Jenova's remains.

When Avalanche realised that Sephiroth was able to return, it was already too late, since the Negative Lifestream was blocking their path.

 

[holdthesun]

I don't think they predicted that Kadaj would turn into Sephiroth, despite Vincent's statements.

They probably though that Cloud would handle it and then all would be over.

I think that not even Cloud predicted that outcome, since he looks quite surprised when Kadaj was able to pull out the stunt that allowed him to fuse with Jenova's remains.

When Avalanche realised that Sephiroth was able to return, it was already too late, since the Negative Lifestream was blocking their path.

From what I got out of it, they're pretty sure he's gonna turn into Seph. I think Vince points that out with confidence and Tifa acknowledges it, as do the rest in their own way. Tho even having that possiblity in mind should've had the motivation for them to be concerned enough about how the fight goes. And if they're concerned, it's important that it's shown, at least for glimpse here and there.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Dude, you're saying the scene where they say "We'll let Cloud handle it cause Kadaj is Sephiroth's remnant and this is his fight and he's stronger" is some scene about them being his family and a focus that should be cut to. There's no reading into it. You're making a scene something it isn't, in terms of its purpose. It's a scene where they conclude their role in the fight and leave. Meaning, they are NOT cutting back to it. Thus, the rest of the fight and conflict of the movie is focused squarely on Cloud. There's nothing else.

If Denzel's scene was about Denzel's past and he flashbacked, then that's important and its intent. Reading anything else into it outside of its purpose is absurd. That's like saying the scene where the Turks explode their bomb to stop Loz and Yazoo is really scene about the turks as a whole saying goodbye to Cloud forever and we should see them one last time wishing Cloud good luck against Kadaj and rooting for him from a distance.

The context isn't there. They're entrusting it to Cloud and then Cloud and Sephiroth are the primary focused, and Sephiroth makes an effort to keep all outside influences away. So how the hell could they even see anything? They *left* the area and then the area was surrounded by darkness.

Yeah, that's trusting him to handle it. If they're trusting him to handle Kadaj, then obviously they think he'll win, especially when Cloud's WINNING the fight and they think he'll have it done in 10 minutes. That's confidence in his ability. Meaning they aren't stressing or worrying about him turning to Sephiroth and when he does...

They're already gone and Sephiroth has closed them off. FFS, there's nothing else to it. No one else is seeing this "context" here but you. It's them bowing out.

 

[holdthesun]

Dude, you're saying the scene where they say "We'll let Cloud handle it cause Kadaj is Sephiroth's remnant and this is his fight and he's stronger" is some scene about them being his family.

No... I'm not saying that. That scene is about letting him fight on his own until they see that he needs help. Barret "Pfft, he's got 10 minutes." Which implies, - if he can't handle them on his own, we'll step in (or he will), because we give a shit about what's going on over there. Well Barret does, anyway.

You're making a scene something it isn't, in terms of its purpose.

no I'm not, I'm taking it as it is.

Meaning, they are NOT cutting back to it.

tell that to Barret

If Denzel's scene was about Denzel's past and he flashbacked, then that's important and its intent.

you don't really understand. that scene was used as a filler, during AVALANCHE vs BAHAMUT. If you acknowledge the legitimacy of using that scene in there, than by that rational, a scene showing some AVALANCHE involvement, in the same filler manner, from the Sierra during the Cloud vs Seph fight would be just as legitimate.

So how the hell could they even see anything? They *left* the area and then the area was surrounded by darkness.

showing them complaining about NOT seeing anything, and showing concern about not being able to know how Cloud is doing would be EXACTLY what I‘m saying needed to be in the movie.

Yeah, that's trusting him to handle it. If they're trusting him to handle Kadaj, then obviously they think he'll win, especially when Cloud's WINNING the fight and they think he'll have it done in 10 minutes.

WTF? I think you're misinterpreting Barret a little there pal... Barret wanted to take action, the rest were for Cloud taking it 1-on-1, Barret complies but sets a time limit for Spiky, after, which he clearly intends to go out there and kick ass. What the hell can we even argue about if you're misinterpreting dialogue.

Eitherway, them being so overly confident in Cloud that they decide not to even pay attention to how the fight goes, is irresponsible and stupid on AVALANCHES‘ part, or just bad writting, if you ask me.

They're already gone and Sephiroth has closed them off. FFS, there's nothing else to it. No one else is seeing this "context" here but you. It's them bowing out.

Yes, and I would've liked to see that "They're already gone and Sephiroth has closed them off" in the movie and not from you, thank you very much. And regardless of my own preferences, this just adds to a good, consistent plot. You know, the way you‘re going, you could make up for every single plot-hole ever made in film. That would be a drag for the critics.

Finally, you're continuously missing out on what I meant by "context" (putting it out of context, if that is ever more confusing for ya). I said AVALANCHE's importance is in the context of the entire movie (meaning it's an integral, important part of the story), i didn't mean context pertaining to that particular scene. If they are important to the story, if they're the heros (for a lack of a better word), they should be at least somewhat voiced in the battle that mattered most.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Okay, and what prevents them from stepping in after 10 minutes? *points to the Negative Lifestream and storm around Midgar*

And no, Denzel's scene where he goes back to Seventh Heaven wasn't filler that interrupted the Bahamut fight. It hadn't even begun, so I have no clue what you're even talking about. The transition made sense. Denzel said he was going back home, Cloud was going to join the fight. They show him going back home, and then cut to the fight. No jarring interruption of the focus of the conflict and film there. Just it progressing like it was intended. That would've made sense, had they somehow cut to Denzel going to the bar DURING the fight.

But if we know they're isolated, and the fight's starting, why do we need to state the obvious? It's shit like that, that's bad storytelling. We don't need them to state something that anyone with one eye open can tell, and thus break the tension and focus of the final conflict of the film. The atmosphere was dark and fixed on Sephiroth enveloping Cloud in darkness and fighting him to the death. It quite literally was their "moment" so breaking it would be bad.

Hell, the flashback with Cloud and Zack was awesome and very cool, but that too was a bit jarring since we go from their fast paced duel to the death, then the quiet peaceful message from Zack that get's Cloud back on his feet. If you have too many scenes that break the tension, then it makes the conflict fall flat on its face. It's supposed to be one continuous ride from start to finish.

I know Barret wanted to take action but he too grudgingly entrusts it to Cloud. He doesn't let go as easily as Tifa but he still does. So, nay thou.

And they are not, "not paying attention to Cloud" they're trusting him to settle it but then become removed from the equation thanks to Sephiroth and thus can't see everything. Again, you don't need them stating the obvious to come up with that logical and clear conclusion.

AVALANCHE's context to the movie is there already. They support Cloud and come to his aide to stop Bahamut and literally give them a hand and push upwards to fly so he can kill it. If that isn't AC hammering symbolism and the "context" of their appearance in the film, I don't know what is. We don't need a little blurb of them stating the obvious to get that message.

 

[holdthesun]

Okay, and what prevents them from stepping in after 10 minutes? *points to the Negative Lifestream and storm around Midgar*

it doesn't matter what prevents them.... the point is that they need to show that AVALANCHE is unable to do anything about what's going on. I know, here it comes... "but it's obvious", no Mako, they could have wrote some good dialogue for AVALANCHE during the sequence.

And no, Denzel's scene where he goes back to Seventh Heaven wasn't filler that interrupted the Bahamut fight. It hadn't even begun, so I have no clue what you're even talking about.

yeah, no kidding... the Bahamut scene is in full progress by the time that happens. The AVALANCHE (-Cloud/Tifa) is already there and attacking the thing - that's where the AVALANCHE vs BAHAMUT sequence starts.

The transition made sense. Denzel said he was going back home, Cloud was going to join the fight. They show him going back home, and then cut to the fight. No jarring interruption of the focus of the conflict and film there.

no, no, no... that is clear switching of focus from the BAHAMUT fight to DENZEL's sorded past. Nothing wrong with the scene, it's a filler, it adds to the overall story, but not to the current sequence that is given center stage ala AVALANCHE vs BAHAMUT fight. If they had switched to AVALANCHE reacting to the negative lifestream closing during CLOUD vs SEPHIROTH, and being concerned of not seeing what was going on, it would work in the same exact way as the Denzel scene.

But if we know they're isolated, and the fight's starting, why do we need to state the obvious? It's shit like that, that's bad storytelling. We don't need them to state something that anyone with one eye open can tell, and thus break the tension and focus of the final conflict of the film. The atmosphere was dark and fixed on Sephiroth enveloping Cloud in darkness and fighting him to the death. It quite literally was their "moment" so breaking it would be bad.

There were plenty of places were including extra AVALANCHE scenes would take nothing away from the main focus, when Seph is calling on the negative lifestream for example. It's not all as obvious as you make it out to be.

Do you know for sure how AVALANCHE being on board of the Shierra reacted to the scene of the sky turning black and losing track of what was going on? you don't, and that's what I wanted to see. I wanted to see how Barret would go back on his "he's got 10 minutes" comment, I wanted to see what Tifa would say about not knowing how Cloud is doing, or what the shit is happening with the sky, how Cid would swear about the weather turning to shit and worries about the ship. These are just missed opportunities for what could have been a better plot, with decent dialogue.

Hell, the flashback with Cloud and Zack was awesome and very cool, but that too was a bit jarring since we go from their fast paced duel to the death, then the quiet peaceful message from Zack that get's Cloud back on his feet. If you have too many scenes that break the tension, then it makes the conflict fall flat on its face. It's supposed to be one continuous ride from start to finish.

That's a good example. Though I disagree that switching to Avalanche would take away from the tension, it all depends on execution. I think if Tifa would worry a little about "her hero" would just get me rooting and anxious about Cloud much more during the scene. How can you not see this?

And they are not, "not paying attention to Cloud" they're trusting him to settle it but then become removed from the equation thanks to Sephiroth and thus can't see everything. Again, you don't need them stating the obvious to come up with that logical and clear conclusion.

Ok, look above for the "stating the obvious"-thing.

AVALANCHE's context to the movie is there already. They support Cloud and come to his aide to stop Bahamut and literally give them a hand and push upwards to fly so he can kill it. If that isn't AC hammering symbolism and the "context" of their appearance in the film, I don't know what is. We don't need a little blurb of them stating the obvious to get that message.

I getting more and more lost with what you deem obvious here...