SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Gym Leader Devil]

Speaking of very twee names, Lana, Lois, Lorie...

Luthor... Ok I'll stop reacting to shit people said weeks ago. For now.

 

[Graymouse]

- exactly~ MY friend whose in JP said " international C/A are ridiculous its true that helding hards is different thing but I held hands with my friends too ~ A kiss definitely different though.. you dont just kiss anyone. "

- this is why they're calling it 'optional' because it can or cannot happen - they cannot exactly diss the kiss so they're trying to do it on different way. Pathetic actually hehehe

I can 100% verify that holding hands in public in Japan doesn't necessarily mean they are having sex or in a relationship for that matter. I have seen many people (when I go out) holding hands all the time. My daughter holds hands with her friends all the time when they go out. Holding hands is not exclusive to being in a romantic relationship.

 

[Empyrea]

Twitter "For You" tab hurts my brain :

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Thank goodness I don't go there, then
Also, why are they scare quoting love? Is it a silent admission that they know it can be platonic?

All jokes aside, I would love to know sometimes how these people can come up with a story that's a few steps shy of being as brain-melting as Fifty Shades. That's actually...pretty amazing.

Since after Rebirth it seems this thread has become a C/T echo chamber?

Well, I think the issue is the discussion here is about canon and less preference. Other CAs like Sakura probably find that there's not really much discussion to be had there?

 

[cgnVirtue]

Since after Rebirth it seems this thread has become a C/T echo chamber?

Edited to add:

Wish we can get more engagement from C/A for more discussions.

This is kind of funny because I joined this forum to get away from CA echo chambers.
To be honest I think it’s a fault within the way that the most vocal CAs operate that drives them away, I don’t think it’s anything to do with us.

Well, I think the issue is the discussion here is about canon and less preference. Other CAs like Sakura probably find that there's not really much discussion to be had there?

And it’s because of this right here, I think. I actually can’t find a single space willing to collaborate according to canon and critical analysis because all of it in public spaces is skewed by shipping. I’ve tried both Twitter and Reddit and it seems like it doesn’t matter where you go, shippers will brigade a thread and have their little armies like their replies. It’s infuriating, especially when all they care about is how certain elements can service their own ship. Recently it seems like it’s more on the CA side, perhaps because of the increasing amount of attention CT is getting from Rebirth. And the more people that finish Rebirth, it will just keep increasing.

But anyway, to return to my first point and build off of the canon point, the most passionate CAs are just not willing to discuss what’s canon in good faith. At this point they kind of can’t, given how explicitly pushy the narrative is toward CT and how it’s likely to continue and intensify. As much as it would be interesting, in theory, to add the perspective of a CA, unfortunately most of them aren’t interested in discussing the plot or the LTD in any meaningful way. If they were, they wouldn’t be in denial about… the plot.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

Honestly my earnest wish in part 3 is just like OG Aerith less communication with party ( particularly Cloud?) and just focus on her duties in LS since there seems to a lot of work needs to be done there. I wanna feel her 'absence' just like in OG cuz her death seems like a horror movie than sad.

I want part 3 to focus on Cloti and Zerith alone - hopefully we'll be fulfilled once finale has been released.

Aerith has been given her moments before the kebabs part I'm hoping the same will be given to part 3 since that's gonna be Tifa's now once she returns back the real Cloud.

 

[AncientGrimoire]

Twitter "For You" tab hurts my brain :

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Notice how in this scenario of theirs that they’ve invented in their mad lab, Cloud is an absolute jerk?

Like not spiky McJerkface jerk.

An actual terrible, hurtful, spiteful jerk who gets bitterly jealous and rebound kisses another girl. To what end? Hopefully make Aerith jealous?!

Oh how romantic! I’m actually swooning over this beautiful star-crossed lovers epic tale of romance and love

In every scenario they are inventing in order to make their ship work, it’s at such an extreme detriment to the characters, turning them into their literal exact opposites. Like it’s not enough they have to make poor Aerith a zombie in order to make Clerith work, but poor Cloud might as well be one too since apparently he’s not allowed any autonomy or decency in their scenario.

There’s coping, and then there is the complete lack of self awareness to realise that you are turning your preferred characters in your preferred pairing into awful people just to facilitate a “romance” that is founded on jealousy, rebound kisses, deceit, and hurting others feelings.

Romance of the century I guess smdh

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I think it's a mark of how good the people in this thread are at heart that character assassination like Grim is talking about has been happening for actual fucking decades and the depths of it still catch you off guard. Your faith in humanity, your desire to see people as better than that? It might be naive, but it's definitely commendable. It's nothing more than I expect but I'm a cynical misanthrope whaddya want from me

 

[thetriplerhyme]

Notice how in this scenario of theirs that they’ve invented in their mad lab, Cloud is an absolute jerk?

Like not spiky McJerkface jerk.

- I need to compose myself or hold my comment I'm always triggered when it comes to characteristics of #Cloti cuz i love both of them. Mizcharacteristics are a big red flag to me and that's mostly C/A.

Look in real life Cloud's a big jerk but he's a good sofie person. I hate it when he left his family after FF7 timeline ( OTWTAS ) but his mental issues and stuff its his way to redeem himself. So I still love that jerk even if he's a big one. I also love Tifa although his shyness and holding his 'piece' or words she needed to say is one of the traits I acknowledge her flaws ( sometimes) I still appreciate them both.

I used to hate their ' issues in OTWTAS' out of frustration cuz they're both the same. But a bit mature now I realize Tifa's actions are indeed what Cloud needed. He needed to find himself and know to properly grieve as this is taken away from him back in Nibelheim and Zack and Aerith. Plus with "alien cancer" as @Rin says ( hehe )

This is also why I didnt wanna hate Aerith too in rebirth ( no matter how annoying she can be) playing crisis core make you understand her flaws too plus i know her true love and person she wants in her heart is still ZACK.

 

[Hix]

Twitter "For You" tab hurts my brain :

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Obviously takes like these are exceedingly unhinged and betray a deeper, fundamental problem with Cleriths, vis, they are willing to throw anyone or anything - the characters, the narrative, the devs and more - under a bus to protect their ship.

But wow, I'd love to focus on this last little line there "rebound jealous kiss that was after asking about Aerith feelings..." - leaving aside the blatant character assassination of Cloud here, that'd he'd actually do this, and the fact that would you even want this man with Aerith if this is how he behaves (?), it's an interesting spin on the events in Gongaga which is becoming harder and harder for fans of CA to ignore.

Cloud stumbles on Zack's house with Aerith inside. It's clear she's emotional and they talk a little outside, perhaps the most frank and unguarded conversation between the two in the entire game. She explains, Zack was her first love. Cloud asks, do you still love him? She answers yes. It's an answer that comes from the heart and it has to - she hasn't seen him in 5 years, is either in part or in whole aware he's dead, and could easily handwave the question away with "I don't know" if there was any uncertainty. But she says yes, because, she does. And it's to Cloud.

The implications here are enormous. First, this is the most overt, unquestionable statement by Aerith about her feelings for any one man to a third party in canon. Obviously she has interest in Cloud due to his connection to Zack, this grows into an interest in Cloud in it's own right (she knows he's not the real him, but isn't aware who the real him actually is) and this could well have developed into something bigger had they not known each other for only a few short, and very busy, weeks. Nevertheless, this one statement is about Zack and it's to Cloud.

Secondly the rest of the game, and indeed franchise, has to be interpreted in light of her feelings and the fact she's expressed them with Cloud. While in Rebirth, this doesn't make much difference admittedly - the devs purposely kept Z and A apart as bringing them together now would end the discussion once and for all, destroying any chance for build up of C and A ahead of her death - there's still plenty that changes in light of it.

One has to understand the context of future declarations of feelings on behalf of Aerith, for a start. I don't think NPTK is as significant as many seem to believe, but if you want to say it's a love ballad that represents Aerith's feelings then you must concede that Zack is at least a part of this because he's a part of her.

Further, the Sector 5 date - already a direct copy of her date with Zack, projected as part of an attempt to recapture that lost romance she shared with him - ends with Aerith confessing she doesn't know if she loves Cloud or just likes him. One can say that, OK, maybe she does love him. But there's a hesitancy there, a doubt there. In Gongaga, the response is swift, unwavering and solidly "I love Zack".

Even the Cleriths are realising, such as this quote illustrates, that this changes the game. They claim Cloud is jealous - and well he might be, at least a little, as he's still in his SOLDIER fantasy persona and has been greatly indulged by acting the part of Aerith's bodyguard - but this acknowledgement throws a direct spanner in the works of CA, vis, Cloud is clearly, even before realising who Zack is, unwilling to progress his relationship with Aerith further in light of the fact she's still in love with Zack. That's a damning admission.

Ultimately, the LTD has never been about who loves Cloud. We know Tifa has feelings him, and always has. We know Aerith has feelings for him. But who does Cloud love? In the Lifestream sequence, Tifa puts together the broken pieces of his mind only to discover every single piece loves her deeply, so we've had the answer since 1997. This "jealousy" or "rebound kiss" thing is a myth, Cloud's wanted to snog Tifa for a decade.

Just as we must interpret the kiss in light of Cloud's love for Tifa - as if it was in question by anyone arguing in good faith - so too we must interpret Aerith's feelings for Cloud in light of her admitted love of Zack. It seems in a roundabout way even CAs are starting to see one cannot treat him as a thing of the past for her any longer.

 

[Eerie]

Based on the increase of blood in part 2, as well as some of the more crude dialogue and what they've apparently done in FFXVI, I'd say there is a good chance they'll be more explicit in part 3 than in the OG. Almost have to be tbh or it'd be weird.

Anyway, I have a question, I heard someone say that with Barrets date the first 4 notes of Tifas theme starts playing. Can someone who believes that give me a time stamp where that supposedly happens for the following video? Would like to check if I agree but I can't hear it so thought a more focuses listen might help.

I believe it's at 1:17

Edit: as a reminder blocking on Twitter is a good way to avoid these takes. Personally I've also limited Twitter to my PC and I use an addon which limits it severely. Not having the "for you" tab is actually a godsend.

 

[AncientGrimoire]

- I need to compose myself or hold my comment I'm always triggered when it comes to characteristics of #Cloti cuz i love both of them. Mizcharacteristics are a big red flag to me and that's mostly C/A.

Look in real life Cloud's a big jerk but he's a good sofie person. I hate it when he left his family after FF7 timeline ( OTWTAS ) but his mental issues and stuff its his way to redeem himself. So I still love that jerk even if he's a big one. I also love Tifa although his shyness and holding his 'piece' or words she needed to say is one of the traits I acknowledge her flaws ( sometimes) I still appreciate them both.

I used to hate their ' issues in OTWTAS' out of frustration cuz they're both the same. But a bit mature now I realize Tifa's actions are indeed what Cloud needed. He needed to find himself and know to properly grieve as this is taken away from him back in Nibelheim and Zack and Aerith. Plus with "alien cancer" as @Rin says ( hehe )

This is also why I didnt wanna hate Aerith too in rebirth ( no matter how annoying she can be) playing crisis core make you understand her flaws too plus i know her true love and person she wants in her heart is still ZACK.

And the whole spiky jerkface line we get from Yuffie about Cloud is a great highlight of how, unless you are Tifa or Aerith, most everyone else (especially Barret and Yuffie at first) are put off by how cold Cloud can be initially on knowing and interacting with him.

But just look at Cloud and Barret’s relationship in Rebirth. When Cloud nearly falls into the river at the Corel mine, and Barret immediately grabs him and supports him as they take him someplace safe so he can rest.

Imagine Barret doing something like this if Cloud had a similar moment at Mako Reactor 1.

You can also already see early on after Yuffie joins the team how much she actually looks up to Cloud, and loves having another older big brother type figure in her life after losing Sonon.

So yeah, deep down, Cloud is an absolute softhearted soul, but he’s a person living in the world of Final Fantasy VII, where you have Sephiroths, Hojos, JENOVAS.

Cloud is the sorry soul who has run ins with all three. You’re going to have very rough edges living through all Cloud has gone through.

But none of that actually makes Cloud a jerk, not deep down not where it matters.

But according to some he’s the biggest tool in the shed, and this makes him the “perfect man” for Aerith.

 

[cgnVirtue]

I believe it's at 1:17

Anyway, I have a question, I heard someone say that with Barrets date the first 4 notes of Tifas theme starts playing. Can someone who believes that give me a time stamp where that supposedly happens for the following video? Would like to check if I agree but I can't hear it so thought a more focuses listen might help.

Okay so I’ve actually tried to listen to this and I can’t hear anything but the first note of Tita’s theme at this point (0:17) and a bit past it. If someone could point out how exactly the rest of it is heard, that would be great. Unless I’m not crazy and only the first note can be heard. I mean, I hope I’m wrong and that there’s more in there because I think that’d be a really nice touch.

 

[Graymouse]

Twitter "For You" tab hurts my brain :

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My goodness. I didn't click on this before! I just want pull out all my hair!

A kiss is:

million of times more romantic than just holding someone's hand, including the interlocking fingers BS!

The cope with this one is over 9000!

 

[Sacky]

Notice how in this scenario of theirs that they’ve invented in their mad lab, Cloud is an absolute jerk?

Like not spiky McJerkface jerk.

An actual terrible, hurtful, spiteful jerk who gets bitterly jealous and rebound kisses another girl. To what end? Hopefully make Aerith jealous?!

Oh how romantic! I’m actually swooning over this beautiful star-crossed lovers epic tale of romance and love

In every scenario they are inventing in order to make their ship work, it’s at such an extreme detriment to the characters, turning them into their literal exact opposites. Like it’s not enough they have to make poor Aerith a zombie in order to make Clerith work, but poor Cloud might as well be one too since apparently he’s not allowed any autonomy or decency in their scenario.

There’s coping, and then there is the complete lack of self awareness to realise that you are turning your preferred characters in your preferred pairing into awful people just to facilitate a “romance” that is founded on jealousy, rebound kisses, deceit, and hurting others feelings.

Romance of the century I guess smdh

They had to fit all buzzwords in there. And they made it not make sense XD. I will never stop laughing about how funny "Canon Non optional" is since here's the real thing. If one was Canon then that would be the only one possible until after game completion. Players also can't claim canon unless it's outright stated.The developers believe it or not aren't thinking hmmn well Clotis are annoying so let's throw them a bone but make sure to make Cloud look like an asshole. This way players will know the true canon. Square aren't gonna intentionally make there popular main character a cheating scumbag who takes advantage of emotions optional or not XD

Yet truth is there's only 2 scenes in the game that are generating the most hype and best reactions and that's what square enix are gonna see in feedback and that's.

• The Cloud and Tifa Kiss
• Gongaga Lifestream

There's a ton of great scenes but these two are what people are reacting too in a positive way and sharing. The developers knew that was Gonna happen aswell. The Kiss scene is directed in a way that keeps you on edge will they won't they. The build up then no pay off. First with them looking at each other then looking away. Then with Tifa confessing then getting shy. Then with cloud reaching his hand before going into a hug. Then finally a kiss with the fireworks exploding in the back ground signifying the importance. Even the music is done this way completely cutting off when he hugs then building up to the climax being the kiss.
This is also the first time Cloud has ever kissed a character which just opens the floodgates for Cloti in Part 3 and I think most of the toxic CA know this.

 

[Eerie]

The Kiss scene is directed in a way that keeps you on edge will they won't they.

I saw a French streamer react to the kiss - he absolutely adores Tifa and kept insulting Cloud during the gondola because he thought he wasn't going to kiss her lmao. When he finally did he was like "I TAKE IT ALL BACK you're good"

 

[thetriplerhyme]

• Gongaga Lifestream

- CHAPTER 9 Gongaga for me is like my "push away" C/A bet topic is always GONGAGA they're all avoiding this one for me hence I super love it when I brought in Gongaga. They dont have anything againts it ( not that I know off) soo they're all moving away from that topic.

For them Gongaga didnt exist ever happened like chapter 9 never happened: Remember there are three main things happened in Gongaga

• Aerith said herself that she still loves Zack
• Cloud hurts Tifa and The "TIFAAAAAAA" scream / After that he almost returns back slighty back to catatonic
• Cloud stayed in the room ALONE while the rest is outside / almost kiss

 

[Graymouse]

- CHAPTER 9 Gongaga for me is like my "push away" C/A bet topic is always GONGAGA they're all avoiding this one for me hence I super love it when I brought in Gongaga. They dont have anything againts it ( not that I know off) soo they're all moving away from that topic.

For them Gongaga didnt exist ever happened like chapter 9 never happened: Remember there are three main things happened in Gongaga

• Aerith said herself that she still loves Zack
• Cloud hurts Tifa and The "TIFAAAAAAA" scream / After that he almost returns back slighty back to catatonic
• Cloud stayed in the room ALONE while the rest is outside / almost kiss

Dont forget the non optional Yuffie and Cait Sith, Kiss! Kiss! Kiss! behind the closed door.

PS. I hate using that word non optional BS.

 

[Sacky]

- CHAPTER 9 Gongaga for me is like my "push away" C/A bet topic is always GONGAGA they're all avoiding this one for me hence I super love it when I brought in Gongaga. They dont have anything againts it ( not that I know off) soo they're all moving away from that topic.

For them Gongaga didnt exist ever happened like chapter 9 never happened: Remember there are three main things happened in Gongaga

• Aerith said herself that she still loves Zack
• Cloud hurts Tifa and The "TIFAAAAAAA" scream / After that he almost returns back slighty back to catatonic
• Cloud stayed in the room ALONE while the rest is outside / almost kiss

The claim's against it I have seen are
Cloud didn't move into the kiss or understand what was happening ( they must think Square Enix are idiot's to make an almost kiss scene not romantic and Square are not so they added Yuffie telling people who don't get it SO THE PLAYER knows XD.
They also say Cloud is Jealous when asking Aerith about Zack.
Cloud didn't react to Tifas supposed Death like he cared ( Yeah death reactions should be used as evidence apparently...)
They conviently don't mention

• the talk between Cloud and Tifa before the Kiss
• the whole lifestream sequence with Tifas "Cloud I need you" wonder why developers added that line that absolutely won't come back in mideel.
• Tifa being able to see Clouds POV of his memories. Since when you actually think about it these aren't exactly Tifas memories of the events it's from Clouds POV. Possibly have connected Lifestreams? I'm not saying Soulmates but.... Would be funny.

So yeah Gongaga is one of the most important scenes that they can't really have evidence against apart from saying it's not romantic which yeah ain't exactly gonna work for anyone XD.

There is one more claim I've seen that Sephiroth has removed Tifas power to be able to help Cloud in the lifestream. You know Tifa and her famous word superpowers.......

 

[Eerie]

Tifa being able to see Clouds POV of his memories. Since when you actually think about it these aren't exactly Tifas memories of the events it's from Clouds POV. Possibly have connected Lifestreams? I'm not saying Soulmates but.... Would be funny.

It's definitely HER POV though. The Weapons are following tiny memories of hers to arrive at the scene.

No what's striking to me is that they share the same core memories. They are soulmates in that their core resonate with each other's, and eventually, she opens up to him about those memories, and he'll let her inside his heart to piece it back together. Honestly there are a lot of details in this scene and it keeps me on my toes, wondering if they'll do anything with those in p3 (there is for example Stargazer Heights, the place where they slept in REMAKE, but also the Nibelheim entrance...). There's also TOTP which is alluded to a lot in REBIRTH as well as the Cloud novella, which makes me expect a bit him telling Tifa about his dreams of becoming someone special to her.

 

[Graymouse]

The claim's against it I have seen are
Cloud didn't move into the kiss or understand what was happening ( they must think Square Enix are idiot's to make an almost kiss scene not romantic and Square are not so they added Yuffie telling people who don't get it SO THE PLAYER knows XD.
They also say Cloud is Jealous when asking Aerith about Zack.
Cloud didn't react to Tifas supposed Death like he cared ( Yeah death reactions should be used as evidence apparently...)

What game did they play?

 

[Sacky]

It's definitely HER POV though. The Weapons are following tiny memories of hers to arrive at the scene.

No what's striking to me is that they share the same core memories. They are soulmates in that their core resonate with each other's, and eventually, she opens up to him about those memories, and he'll let her inside his heart to piece it back together. Honestly there are a lot of details in this scene and it keeps me on my toes, wondering if they'll do anything with those in p3 (there is for example Stargazer Heights, the place where they slept in REMAKE, but also the Nibelheim entrance...). There's also TOTP which is alluded to a lot in REBIRTH as well as the Cloud novella, which makes me expect a bit him telling Tifa about his dreams of becoming someone special to her.

It's just interesting that we see the memories from Clouds point of view though like behind Cloud while he looks at her and the group of boys from a distance The promise scene gets cut off before Cloud actually agrees.
So I do think there is something with their memories and lifestream being connected. Stargazer heights is another interesting one since it Could be when Tifa speaks to Cloud about losing his hard edge. Or just her having a home. Yet there is no seventh heaven in the lifestream which is odd. I think the planet is showing Tifa specifically Cloud memories so she doesn't lose faith in him and reminding her of the real cloud.

 

[Sacky]

What game did they play?

I think they have been sent altered cutscenes
That cuts out all important scenes. Edits out Cloud and Tifas almost kiss to just the dialogue from Yuffie and rearranges the kiss to happen before the hug and immediately after Cloud asks about Aerith

 

[Graymouse]

The Tifa Lifestream sequence?
Cloud was waiting for Tifa to awake! He was in the room by her bedside! Also, Aerith said something to Tifa and Tifa smiled and blushed.

How can they turn that into saying a C/ A moment?

 

[AncientGrimoire]

This is also the first time Cloud has ever kissed a character which just opens the floodgates for Cloti in Part 3 and I think most of the toxic CA know this.

I mean, right now that’s what I think their goal is, to severely downplay or minimise the huge significance of this.

Like you say, this is the first time in all of Final Fantasy VII’s long history that Cloud Strife has ever kissed a character. And it wasn’t Aerith Gainsborough who he kissed.

It is hugely significant for his character, and for the relationships he has.

And it is also hugely significant for the relationship he has with Tifa.

It absolutely changes things going forward, which is why at the moment you see damage control in full swing, cause there’s a fear that now we’ve had a kiss between Cloud and Tifa, this train that their on ain’t stopping.

 

[Eerie]

How can they turn that into saying a C/ A moment?

Oh you know, I've seen some claim Cloud and Tifa have a great sibling-like relationship because they grew up together in Nibelheim. After decades of ranting they're not childhood friends.