SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[SephirothSucks]

Nah Rebirth is very clearly killing any kind of ounce of Clerith that might have existed. Cloud and Tifa will be the clear end game even if they don't really adjust AC in any way.

I agree with the first part but I am waaaaay less optimistic about the second part lol. What exactly makes everybody here so confident tho. Because sometimes it feels like we are the only ones that interpret the story in this way

 

[GamerSkull]

I agree with the first part but I am waaaaay less optimistic about the second part lol. What exactly makes everybody here so confident tho. Because sometimes it feels like we are the only ones that interpret the story in this way

I’m confident because that’s how the OG played it. It just wasn’t explicit enough. And Rebirth has given Cloud his first actual on-screen kiss.

 

[Hellenic]

we still have a lot of people that played Rebirth or watched some streamers play Rebirth and still think that Clerith is endgame and shit hate on Tifa.

You can't really fix people who already have their bias towards Clerith to begin with or ones who follow big Cleriths and let their gossip decide for themselves. They will see things their own ways while people who are genuinely neutral and just see what the game tells them will more than likely lean towards Cloti instead.

I've seen a fair share of new players that started with Remake without having played the OG lean towards Cloti too, because it's just something the game builds to very obviously.

 

[SephirothSucks]

You can't really fix people who already have their bias towards Clerith to begin with or ones who follow big Cleriths and let their gossip decide for themselves. They will see things their own ways while people who are genuinely neutral and just see what the game tells them will more than likely lean towards Cloti instead.

I've seen a fair share of new players that started with Remake without having played the OG lean towards Cloti too, because it's just something the game builds to very obviously.

I agree actually. And also I am one of these new players

 

[Ryushikaze]

As a science person, who's entire thing and training was research and argumentation. Finally someone who knows what "burden of proof" actually means. Thank you.

Shippers online always argue for their ships by trying to disprove the other. Which is why it never ever ever ends. Because they're ignoring that the actual hypothesis is:

Cloud loves X. X here being the girl you are trying to prove he loves

So the null hypothesis is Not Cloud does not love Y because that's a different hypothesis on its own that needs it's own argument and it's own null hypothesis (Cloud loves Y). But it's what ship arguments will tend to go for.

It is null: Cloud does not love X

Because proving Cloud does not love Y doesn't actually do anything to prove the actual hypothesis Cloud loves X.

Hence why goal posts always move because you have people not presenting one hypothesis, they're bringing up like four or five at once and jumping between them. And it just doesn't work that way.

And it honestly drives me nuts lol

But yeah in such debate for canon I also think everyone should be on the same page of what canon actually means too because if not the argument goes nowhere and that's how you end up with these ten or so different hypotheses being thrown around instead of argued systematically and all the leaps in logic and bad faith arguments we tend to see in these types of fanwars.

But yes, thank you for getting it.

You are most welcome. I always try to make my arguments coherent, rational, and parsimonious. Even my complete piss takes follow the rules.

Also @SephirothSucks

I will add because I remember the Nojima quote from COT and I don't want to double post. I think it's not the word better there but "well"? If anyone wants to remind me. But I read it as: "Maybe things would have gone well with Aerith. But her responsibility is too great I think." I don't think it's really an implication things with Tifa are worse in comparison in my view. Just that he is considering and responding what others like the interviewers would ask. And the impression they'd get from what he wrote.

But I don't have the JP quote with me anymore.
In general though I don't think the devs really were trying to to pit them against each other during OTWTAS or AC era just to address whatever they were asked about in the moment.

I think he might have been alluding to "If Aerith hadn't died" given that Cloud was being consumed by a survivor's guilt for her and Zack and felt guilty for feeling happy, but he never really elaborated on what he meant and yeah, he basically dismissed whatever thought it was immediately.

 

[Hellenic]

I agree with the first part but I am waaaaay less optimistic about the second part lol. What exactly makes everybody here so confident tho. Because sometimes it feels like we are the only ones that interpret the story in this way

I was confident on the end game since OG already based on what the game gave me and Rebirth is here to just make everything even clearer if you still had doubts. That kiss we got is a deal breaker and ender of all things, unless you think Cloud is a character who would just go around smooching any girl that comes along.

Also i do think people will come to understand the AC portrayal of their relationship a lot better after this trilogy too.

 

[Eerie]

I could see Nojima maybe feeling like Cloud would be better with Aerith and then changing his opinion later on. Because I think the wording of this quote is still very weird in any context and also over the years he has become a tiny bit more aggressive with showcasing cloti as the canon couple. So yeah he might have thought Cloud loves Aerith more and then changed his mind.

No. It was him theorising on a question that never even crossed his mind. Like "oh maybe, but not in the end". He is Japanese, he will always answer questions and never contradict. In the same breath he also said he put his views of marriage into the Cloud and Tifa relationship, and that when he started writing, he knew everyone would be where they belong, ie Cloud with Tifa. You have to understand that he pushed CT and back then gave CA a maybe, because CA wasn't even in his equation. As I said the dream date is his answer to that question, as is ACC with all the zerith added.

As for Nomura, he's saying that Tifa is the one who pushed Cloud to react, and that, understanding him the most, is able to conclude that he pushed his memories (aka Sephiroth & his guilt) away. That he will be alright starting now. And so they have that mini moment at the end where they are shown as on the same page again. ACC does fare better into showing what was wrong with Cloud, and him communicating, and adding more CT scenes but the idea remained. They also communicated a lot on Cloud's fear to lose his family or to hurt them and thus shutting down, as well as having Reminiscence where you see him answering a wish from Tifa in CoT (that they'd have a family day).

As far as communication goes, it was Nomura's idea that fans remembered Cloud as the broody ex-SOLDIER so he capitalised on that for AC/C, sadly enough (since I prefer his real self). As I said I personally feel that REBIRTH especially makes that movie (and especially CoT) slightly off in terms of characterisation. When you see all the conversations that Cloud and Tifa have in REBIRTH, AC/C and CoT feel disjointed.

 

[SephirothSucks]

I was confident on the end game since OG already based on what the game gave me and Rebirth is here to just make everything even clearer if you still had doubts. That kiss we got is a deal breaker and ender of all things, unless you think Cloud is a character who would just go around smooching any girl that comes along.

Also i do think people will come to understand the AC portrayal of their relationship a lot better after this trilogy too.

I am confident that cloti is canon but not how they will handle it based on Advent Children. They did a pretty good job in Rebirth but that ending was so bad and also there are way more cleriths now that I can see them pandering to cleriths out of fear of alienating a huge chunk of customers.

 

[GamerSkull]

I am confident that cloti is canon but not how they will handle it based on Advent Children. They did a pretty good job in Rebirth but that ending was so bad and also there are way more cleriths now that I can see them pandering to cleriths out of fear of alienating a huge chunk of customers.

To be fair, if Part 3 is the last one which I assume it probably will be. There would be no need to pander outside of trailers in order to sell copies.

Also, I believe you are underestimating the size of the Cloti fanbase as well.

Many CA fans existed after Remake yet they still only “pandered” in the trailers. The game itself sings a different tune.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Thank you for adding your interpretation.
I could see Nojima maybe feeling like Cloud would be better with Aerith and then changing his opinion later on. Because I think the wording of this quote is still very weird in any context and also over the years he has become a tiny bit more aggressive with showcasing cloti as the canon couple. So yeah he might have thought Cloud loves Aerith more and then changed his mind.
Nomura saying that Cloud and Tifa actually habe a good relationship if you watch the movie is still stupid tho. Like even in the denzel flashback where Cloud should not be as depressed as when he gets geostigma, Tifa still mentiones how unusuall it is for Cloud to call. And thats not even mentioning everything else in the movie. In my Opinion it is almost impossible to that they have a good relationship if you don't know about the books that take place before and after.

Well it's not really an interpretation as I'm saying that's what I remember the sentence saying. I'm a CA myself but I'm also very sure Nojima is very confident in CT even back then. I also studied Japanese and was asked about that quote before. I'm pretty sure the word there is not "better". It's "well". I don't remember anything otherwise either but it's been a long time.

The context was the premise things wouldn't go well between Cloud and Tifa even without geostigma in the way.
Premise meaning assumption like that's what people thought. So he responds "Well perhaps things would have gone well with Aerith...but her responsibility is too great I think." He was just responding to the assumption.

I hope that clears it up

 

[SephirothSucks]

To be fair, if Part 3 is the last one which I assume it probably will be. There would be no need to pander outside of trailers in order to sell copies.

Also, I believe you are underestimating the size of the Cloti fanbase as well.

Many CA fans existed after Remake yet they still only “pandered” in the trailers. The game itself sings a different tune.

I think most people are CAs. Thats not based on data or anything, I just imagine way mor people Aerith as the heroine and Cloud as the hero so they immediatly pair them together. That happens pretty often like with One piece for example.
Rebirth didn't really have a reason to pander either since she dies here but they absolutely panderd to them. And also part 3 will most likely Feature more Aerith than people think because of the different Worlds stuff and Cloud being delusional.
Like I said Im a die hard cloti, I just suggest not getting your hopes up to much.

 

[c.lupara]

For me the question is simpler than it seems.

The NPTK trailer is, in my opinion, the moment in which the devs wanted to communicate "get attached to Aerith now before it's too late".

The LTD issue, however, is 90% closed;
what we know for sure is that the feelings between C/T were not fully analyzed but introduced.

Probably in the part we will have a breaking point in which Tifa herself will no longer know who Cloud is and then she will be called upon to rebuild him; it will be right here that we will have the true analysis of the feelings of the two which will be the driving force for the final part of the game.

There remains that 10% which is currently mere speculation and not supported by facts in its favor.


Oh, seeing a poster that has been, due to force majeure, split across two pages, pointed out as evidence by the usual CAs makes me laugh out loud; i.e. they really don't know how posters are made? xD

 

[Zextes]

I think most people are CAs. Thats not based on data or anything, I just imagine way mor people Aerith as the heroine and Cloud as the hero so they immediatly pair them together. That happens pretty often like with One piece for example.
Rebirth didn't really have a reason to pander either since she dies here but they absolutely panderd to them. And also part 3 will most likely Feature more Aerith than people think because of the different Worlds stuff and Cloud being delusional.
Like I said Im a die hard cloti, I just suggest not getting your hopes up to much.

there are currently many more CT than CA

 

[Eerie]

I think most people are CAs

You are so so wrong lol.

That aside, I just had a mini-revelation lol. Remember when we were talking about the first draft of the relationship chart?



Yes, that one lol. Well, I just saw that:



It was this sentence "Let's kill Aerith and bring out Tifa" that made me realise that between the relationship chart and this, there was a time when they did replace Tifa with Aerith and Vincent with Sephiroth; and so this is why they had created Aerith first in that they had decided that Aerith would be "Aerith the Cetra" and thought the role would suit her best, but the fact that they had decided to kill Aerith meant they needed a second heroine. There were probably a lot of designs swapped around and modified with names so that their appearance and role would stick etc. Must have been quite the brainstorm.

I guess this is why they say that Aerith was created first, in a way that's true, but he still had the design and name ready for Tifa because there were a lot of testing.

 

[Stiggie]

I honestly don't realy blame people for not thinking they are a couple considering they literally show zero romantic affection towards each other which is so weird since they live and raise children togethe

Why would they be romantic in ACC when they're literally going through relationship hell? Even so, I'd say there is some romance there, they're vulnerable towards each other in the shilly shally scene, they lie together in the flowers, he saves her on the bike, and she smiles at him at the end.
It's not a lot no, but the whole point is that they're in a bad place.

Do we have actual proof that the LTD even matters much for the sales of the games? Like that's never really been a selling point for Final Fantasy games in the first place, so i don't get the constant implications that LTD is their cash cow and stuff, as if the game wouldn't sell well otherwise like the other games in the series.

Yeah, I'm also iffy on this, I could easily see the LTD hurting more than helping. What would really help is a good focused story.

I think you don't really get the implication of a kiss from Cloud to Tifa in game. The LTD is over, it is what it is. Cloud is SE's poster boy, they described him as loyal, this is clearly SE saying "look, Cloud and Tifa are a thing". I have seen so many articles praising their date as the best date that you'd think it's the canon route (there's no canon route).

Weirdly enough the one article I've seen put Tifas date second after Aeriths.

As a science person, who's entire thing and training was research and argumentation. Finally someone who knows what "burden of proof" actually means. Thank you.

Shippers online always argue for their ships by trying to disprove the other. Which is why it never ever ever ends. Because they're ignoring that the actual hypothesis is:

Cloud loves X. X here being the girl you are trying to prove he loves

So the null hypothesis is Not Cloud does not love Y because that's a different hypothesis on its own that needs it's own argument and it's own null hypothesis (Cloud loves Y). But it's what ship arguments will tend to go for.

It is null: Cloud does not love X

Because proving Cloud does not love Y doesn't actually do anything to prove the actual hypothesis Cloud loves X.

Hence why goal posts always move because you have people not presenting one hypothesis, they're bringing up like four or five at once and jumping between them. And it just doesn't work that way.

And it honestly drives me nuts lol

But yeah in such debate for canon I also think everyone should be on the same page of what canon actually means too because if not the argument goes nowhere and that's how you end up with these ten or so different hypotheses being thrown around instead of argued systematically and all the leaps in logic and bad faith arguments we tend to see in these types of fanwars.

But yes, thank you for getting it.
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Also @SephirothSucks

I will add because I remember the Nojima quote from COT and I don't want to double post. I think it's not the word better there but "well"? If anyone wants to remind me. But I read it as: "Maybe things would have gone well with Aerith. But her responsibility is too great I think." I don't think it's really an implication things with Tifa are worse in comparison in my view. Just that he is considering and responding what others like the interviewers would ask. And the impression they'd get from what he wrote.

But I don't have the JP quote with me anymore.
In general though I don't think the devs really were trying to to pit them against each other during OTWTAS or AC era just to address whatever they were asked about in the moment.

Well, I am also generally a stickler for the rules when it comes to these sorts of thing, owing to literally decades of trying to explain to people that "not accepting the claim that a god exists" is not the same as "claiming that a god doesn't exist.

Still though, I will play devils advocate here and say that this really is about semantics. I don't think people are talking about a scientific approach where Cloti and Clerith are two different claims and that Cloti being true is the default position. Clearly it's not, anyone with an ounce of logical thought understands this. But it is completely fair to say that we're no long in the default position. Imagine a courtroom where someone has been found guilty and 10 years later someone is coming along claiming they're innocent. Now sure, from a purely scientific point of view when we're talking about an argument where we are once again trying to ascertain whether this person is innocent, both parties should start from the null hypothesis. And yet you can't just walk up to the judge and use that logic to demand a retrial, first you need to prove that something was improper about the original trial.

What people who say Clerith have the burden of proof mean is essentially that this trial has already been done. It's been discussed a thousand times, they're lost a thousand arguments, the consensus conclusion is that Cloti has won the trial. So now when they're essentially trying to say "No, everything we know is wrong and the proof of your eyes is wrong", Clotis are simply saying "well, that's an extraordinary claim, show me the extraordinary evidence."
Another way to look at it is this, the reason the burden of proof lies on Cleriths....is because Clotis have already fulfilled theirs. The ball is in their court as it were.

 

[billy22]

I think most people are CAs

I don't, based on every poll I've ever seen on the internet.

Thats not based on data or anything,

I am aware.

I just imagine way mor people Aerith as the heroine and Cloud as the hero so they immediatly pair them together.

Reminds me of Hermione. Got way more screentime than any other woman, was by Harry's side more than any other woman, was in advertising and marketing more than any other woman, got more fanart than any other woman, and was by far the most popular female character in the Harry Potter series...but Harry still ended up with Ginny.

Rebirth didn't really have a reason to pander either since she dies here but they absolutely panderd to them.

The fact that she dies is absolutely a reason "to pander." How else are her fans going to be motivated to buy part 3, when for the last 4 years many of them have foolhardily believed she was going to live this time?

But enough of that for a moment. The handholding was absolutely 'shippy. If Barret had died instead it's not as if Cloud would have start locking fingers with his ghost after fighting Sephiroth.

At the same time, it begs the question, why is it that Aerith's "pandering" (word you are using) doesn't involve Cloud kissing or confessing love? And why should any of us believe that Cloud is going to suddenly take interest in doing that in part 3, when he had zero interest while she was alive and is now a ghost?

And also part 3 will most likely Feature more Aerith than people think because of the different Worlds stuff and Cloud being delusional.

She will absolutely be a part of the game, more than the OG. But it will be less than you think...I think.

Disc 2 and 3 in one game. Two new characters who need arcs (Vincent and Cid). Rocket town and Wutai now pushed to part 3 when they should have been in part 2. Then there's Zack who also needs more screentime. And Tifa's arc. And the ghost crap. And all the WEAPONs.

How much room in the game is left for a dead character, who Nomura has already been on record for saying "isn't coming back?"

 

[SephirothSucks]

there are currently many more CT than CA

I understand based on Youtube views, fanfictions, hashtags etc. Cloti is way bigger. What I was referring to wasn't these hardcore delusional cleriths, but rather people who just heard of ff7 and all the buzz about the Re trilogy. These people will be way more likely to be cleriths in my opinion based on stuff like the Marketing and streamers and stuff. But this is all just speculation on my part. I could also be completely wrong on what the generall public thinks is the canon relationship but I don't really think I am and that should change if true.

 

[GamerSkull]

I think most people are CAs. Thats not based on data or anything, I just imagine way mor people Aerith as the heroine and Cloud as the hero so they immediatly pair them together. That happens pretty often like with One piece for example.
Rebirth didn't really have a reason to pander either since she dies here but they absolutely panderd to them. And also part 3 will most likely Feature more Aerith than people think because of the different Worlds stuff and Cloud being delusional.
Like I said Im a die hard cloti, I just suggest not getting your hopes up to much.

I think you think this way because CA fans seem to be louder. This is because they kinda have to due to their situation. Most CT fans already feel like they’ve won so they have less of an interest in “proving their ship”. Whereas CA kinda has to “prove it” because of the events that occur in the last third of the OG game.

 

[Eerie]

I understand based on Youtube views, fanfictions, hashtags etc. Cloti is way bigger. What I was referring to wasn't these hardcore delusional cleriths, but rather people who just heard of ff7 and all the buzz about the Re trilogy. These people will be way more likely to be cleriths in my opinion based on stuff like the Marketing and streamers and stuff. But this is all just speculation on my part. I could also be completely wrong on what the generall public thinks is the canon relationship but I don't really think I am and that should change if true.

It's literally your opinion lol if the public doesn't play the reality is that they don't care about it. If we are talking about fans who will play, then look at how many people want the Tifa date: it's always around 70% of thousand votes. Imagine Aerith has to share the last 30% with Yuffie, Barret, Red and the guys.

 

[Zextes]

I understand based on Youtube views, fanfictions, hashtags etc. Cloti is way bigger. What I was referring to wasn't these hardcore delusional cleriths, but rather people who just heard of ff7 and all the buzz about the Re trilogy. These people will be way more likely to be cleriths in my opinion based on stuff like the Marketing and streamers and stuff. But this is all just speculation on my part. I could also be completely wrong on what the generall public thinks is the canon relationship but I don't really think I am and that should change if true.

I'm not just talking about the hardcore fandom Tifa is currently a much more popular than Aerith and even more so since the remake which gives more substance to the Tifa Cloud relationship than at the time of the OG

 

[Ryeleigh]

Even so, I'd say there is some romance there, they're vulnerable towards each other in the shilly shally scene, they lie together in the flowers, he saves her on the bike, and she smiles at him at the end.

Tifa also blows Cloud a little kiss at the end of ACC, lol.

Also, I read the lyrics for No Promises to Keep and I think the song actually fits ZA, CA and CT. To explain about CT: at the start of the game, Tifa feels trapped by her circumstances, stuck as it were, and then she meets Cloud and her life starts moving again. They have a promise that neither of them really needs to keep because they love each other regardless of the promise. They separated, not knowing when they'd see each other again. And eventually Tifa finds real Cloud in the lifestream. Now, I'm not saying that the song is 100% CT or try to take it from Aerith, CAs or ZAs but I think it's nice that you can apply it to multiple pairings and characters.

 

[GamerSkull]

I understand based on Youtube views, fanfictions, hashtags etc. Cloti is way bigger. What I was referring to wasn't these hardcore delusional cleriths, but rather people who just heard of ff7 and all the buzz about the Re trilogy. These people will be way more likely to be cleriths in my opinion based on stuff like the Marketing and streamers and stuff. But this is all just speculation on my part. I could also be completely wrong on what the generall public thinks is the canon relationship but I don't really think I am and that should change if true.

I suppose I see what you mean… but why would newcomer perspective affect the storyline in any way? Yes, they may see the marketing material and assume Clerith but that doesn’t mean anything.

And do you really think Square would go “So yeah most of the fans seem to be Cloti but new fans see posters and think Cloud’s gonna end up with Aerith. Let’s completely derail our story in order to cater to people who have no knowledge of FF7.”

 

[SephirothSucks]

The fact that she dies is absolutely a reason "to pander." How else are her fans going to be motivated to buy part 3, when for the last 4 years many of them have foolhardily believed she was going to live this time?

But enough of that for a moment. The handholding was absolutely 'shippy. If Barret had died instead it's not as if Cloud would have start locking fingers with his ghost after fighting Sephiroth.

At the same time, it begs the question, why is it that Aerith's "pandering" (word you are using) doesn't involve Cloud kissing or confessing love? And why should any of us believe that Cloud is going to suddenly take interest in doing that in part 3, when he had zero interest while she was alive and is now a ghost?

Its a reason to pander to Aerith Fans but not cleriths. These two are not necessarily the same Group of people. I was referring to the clerith moments that are in the game AND the Marketing pandering to cleriths, which is not necessary if they are going to kill it in the same game. That would more likely lead to angry Fans which is why I am saying that they did not conpletely erased the Idea that Cloud could have been romantically interested in Aerith even tho I don't think that is the case based on rebirth alone. Obviously Cleriths aren't panderd to as much as Cloti because narrative thats kind of impossible since Cloti is the canon story.

She will absolutely be a part of the game, more than the OG. But it will be less than you think...I think.

Disc 2 and 3 in one game. Two new characters who need arcs (Vincent and Cid). Rocket town and Wutai now pushed to part 3 when they should have been in part 2. Then there's Zack who also needs more screentime. And Tifa's arc. And the ghost crap. And all the WEAPONs.

How much room in the game is left for a dead character, who Nomura has already been on record for saying "isn't coming back?"

I hope you are right because I am not looking forward to that at all. But at the same time the whole different worlds stuff from rebirth kinda makes impossible not to show more of it because it still needs more explanation and a proper conclusion and hopefully the zearith reunion.

 

[SephirothSucks]

I suppose I see what you mean… but why would newcomer perspective affect the storyline in any way? Yes, they may see the marketing material and assume Clerith but that doesn’t mean anything.

And do you really think Square would go “So yeah most of the fans seem to be Cloti but new fans see posters and think Cloud’s gonna end up with Aerith. Let’s completely derail our story in order to cater to people who have no knowledge of FF7.”

I kinda just threw it out there and didn't really think about it but you're right they wouldn't. But I would personally still like for the generall public to see it correctly.

 

[liuliuliu]

I think most people are CAs. Thats not based on data or anything, I just imagine way mor people Aerith as the heroine and Cloud as the hero so they immediatly pair them together. That happens pretty often like with One piece for example.
Rebirth didn't really have a reason to pander either since she dies here but they absolutely panderd to them. And also part 3 will most likely Feature more Aerith than people think because of the different Worlds stuff and Cloud being delusional.
Like I said Im a die hard cloti, I just suggest not getting your hopes up to much.

Your imagination probably is really different with the reality. Again, gaming companies do not joke with their majority player base, and they do bunch of business analysis to get the image correct. If they are brave enough to put a kiss between Cloud and Tifa, it means Cloti fanbase wins in size.