SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

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Deleted member 26496

Guest
Your imagination probably is really different with the reality. Again, gaming companies do not joke with their majority player base, and they do bunch of business analysis to get the image correct. If they are brave enough to put a kiss between Cloud and Tifa, it means Cloti fanbase wins in size.
Im just saying, before I played remake everything i saw about ff7 talked about Clerith as the couple. Like a lot of big youtubers talked about it like that. And also the Trailer with the whole "a love that could never be" probably didn't help.
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
Your imagination probably is really different with the reality. Again, gaming companies do not joke with their majority player base, and they do bunch of business analysis to get the image correct. If they are brave enough to put a kiss between Cloud and Tifa, it means Cloti fanbase wins in size.
Agree with this. They are acutely aware of the LTD. Having Cloud and Tifa kiss but not doing the same for Cloud and Aerith is a very bold move on their part.

Im just saying, before I played remake everything i saw about ff7 talked about Clerith as the couple. Like a lot of big youtubers talked about it like that. And also the Trailer with the whole "a love that could never be" probably didn't help.
That’s the point though. It is a love that can never be. She dies.

That line also basically sinks Clerith too but they don’t realize it.
 
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Deleted member 26496

Guest
All that is moot anyway so long as Zack is relevant. Zack has a lot of fans. They did not go through the trouble of making him relevant again and double down on his love for Aerith only to make him lose to the guy she was literally using as a stand-in for him.
Yeah I know that would be so pathetic for him
 

liuliuliu

Pro Adventurer
Im just saying, before I played remake everything i saw about ff7 talked about Clerith as the couple. Like a lot of big youtubers talked about it like that. And also the Trailer with the whole "a love that could never be" probably didn't help.
As far as I remember “the love that could never be” trailer was the one back in1997. How could a new player like you watch this trailer anyway?
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
As far as I remember “the love that could never be” trailer was the one back in1997. How could a new player like you watch this trailer anyway?
That trailer is used by CA fans as proof so it’s probably brought up a lot.

Which just proves that they can’t use the actual game as evidence. They need to use marketing.
 

c.lupara

Pro Adventurer
I would like to say something out of the box:

imagine that the devs want to bring CA canon, this would mean that:

1) Tifa as a character is useless;

2) Aerith is the worst character ever written because she decides to steal not a boy but Tifa's driving force, not caring about her as a friend;

3) The addition of Zack would only serve as a way of saying "look, you're so useless that we'll make you die again because we like the idea of seeing you suffer even in death at the idea that your girlfriend has become your best friend's girlfriend who incidentally also behaves exactly like you";

4) Let's make it pointless why Cloud became a SOLDIER;

5) Following point 4, we make the entire story of ff7 totally useless and no sense;



Come on, it's fine to believe that the devs are over the top, but totally burning a project just to please some pseudo CA fans (yes CA fans but not ff7 fans) really seems like something that clashes with a something called logic.
 

LunarTarotGirl

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Lunarae
Well, I am also generally a stickler for the rules when it comes to these sorts of thing, owing to literally decades of trying to explain to people that "not accepting the claim that a god exists" is not the same as "claiming that a god exists.

Still though, I will play devils advocate here and say that this really is about semantics. I don't think people are talking about a scientific approach where Cloti and Clerith are two different claims and that Cloti being true is the default position. Clearly it's not, anyone with an ounce of logical thought understands this. But it is completely fair to say that we're no long in the default position. Imagine a courtroom where someone has been found guilty and 10 years later someone is coming along claiming they're innocent. Now sure, from a purely scientific point of view when we're talking about an argument where we are once again trying to ascertain whether this person is innocent, both parties should start from the null hypothesis. And yet you can't just walk up to the judge and use that logic to demand a retrial, first you need to prove that something was improper about the original trial.

What people who says Clerith have the burden of proof is essentially that this trial has already been done. It's been discussed a thousand times, they're lost a thousand arguments, the consensus conclusion is that Cloti has won the trial. So now when they're essentially trying to say "No, everything we know is wrong and the proof of your eyes is wrong", they're simply saying "well, that's an extraordinary claim, show me the extraordinary evidence.
Another way to look at it is this, the reason the burden of proof lies on Cleriths....is because Clotis have already fulfilled theirs. The ball is in their court as it were.
I am not arguing against that but also you're assuming these people are also following the rules for whichever trial. If they're trying to prove we now need a retrial. Yes it would require it's own new evidence. Because yeah the situation has changed so the hypothesis and evidence has to match that as wel.

I think the problem here however is because more material keeps coming out there are more and more people who don't believe the trial is already done mixed in with those who do. Simply because the fanbase keeps growing larger for them they're starting from "the default position" and the LTD is now reaching casual audiences who would ask questions that are new to them not those who have been in the debate for years. I also just don't expect them to know the rules.

So it's not really that CA shouldn't prove itself. I just think if we're not on the same page at the start it's just going to go in circles.

And also extremists and those that don't really debate so they don't know the rules as I have seen over the years spent a lot more time on Cloud does not love Y rather than proving their side. The extremist stance is Cloud does not love Y with the assumption that he loves X is just a given default. And I can say even before Remake this was the case. Extreme CAs and CTs both basically argued like CA or CT was a given which is why we see strange arguments. Which is what I was referring to that drove me nuts.
It doesn't really apply to the logical arguments and debaters which did debate with the evidence they had and do follow the rules.

And that just in general it's very refreshing to hear someone use the correct definition of burden of proof bc yeah it's barely used right in any fandom setting.
 
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Deleted member 26496

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As far as I remember “the love that could never be” trailer was the one back in1997. How could a new player like you watch this trailer anyway?
I'd say this Trailer put a narrative into the generall public and it stuck I guess. I personaly just saw on a Youtube Video I watched regarding ff7
 

liuliuliu

Pro Adventurer
I don’t know much about ff7 streams since I don’t have time to watch live streaming…I only know Max is a big streamer and he is Cloti as far as I know? But anyway I only saw his clips.
If you could drop some names of big streamers for Clerith that would be helpful. And we can really start to pull some numbers here.

To be honest when a streamer gets really big, they will start to partner with the game company to stream their games, and the streamers will start to give neutral opinions to the audiences on controversial things.They start to give you the feel of “yah I like X but sure y is good as well, I’m okay with that.”
If a streamer is really loud and has bunch of bias opinions, and they actually talks shit about other characters (or ships, or just in general) over 50% of chance the studios/game companies don’t give a f at what they says as well.
 
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Deleted member 26496

Guest
If you get this impression from using X/twitter, that probably just means you clicked on way too many Clerith related posts. The algorithm behind X will keep pushing you more Clerith related stuffs until it becomes an echo chamber.
I no longer use Twitter but I used lurk around cloti Twitter so the only clerith tweets I saw were just false proof and laughable fanfic... I mean "predictions and interpretation". So no its not that its just gaming youtubers I saw talk about this who otherwise don't talk about ff7 much
 

liuliuliu

Pro Adventurer
I'd say this Trailer put a narrative into the generall public and it stuck I guess. I personaly just saw on a Youtube Video I watched regarding ff7
Really? If YouTube recommends you a FF7 trailer from back in 1997 when you just type in “FF7”, there is something wrong honestly. You should send a feedback to YouTube.
 
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Deleted member 26496

Guest
Really? If YouTube recommends you a FF7 trailer from back in 1997 when you just type in “FF7”, there is something wrong honestly. You should send a feedback to YouTube.
Nah I saw that from a Youtube Video talking about ff7. It wasn't the main topic at all tho just a clip
 
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Deleted member 26496

Guest
I don’t know much about ff7 streams since I don’t have time to watch live streaming…I only know Max is a big streamer and he is Cloti as far as I know? But anyway I only saw his clips.
If you could drop some names of big streamers for Clerith that would be helpful. And we can really start to pull some numbers here.

To be honest when a streamer gets really big, they will start to partner with the game company to stream their games, and the streamers will start to give neutral opinions to the audiences on controversial things.They start to give you the feel of “yah I like X but sure y is good as well, I’m okay with that.”
If a streamer is really loud and has bunch of bias opinions, and they actually talks shit about other characters (or ships, or just in general) over 50% of chance the studios/game companies don’t give a f at what they says as well.
There's aruuuu, frankielollia and like a few others whose Name I don't know. I don't really watch streams either I just heard of them when I was still on Twitter
 
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Deleted member 26496

Guest
I would like to say something out of the box:

imagine that the devs want to bring CA canon, this would mean that:

1) Tifa as a character is useless;

2) Aerith is the worst character ever written because she decides to steal not a boy but Tifa's driving force, not caring about her as a friend;

3) The addition of Zack would only serve as a way of saying "look, you're so useless that we'll make you die again because we like the idea of seeing you suffer even in death at the idea that your girlfriend has become your best friend's girlfriend who incidentally also behaves exactly like you";

4) Let's make it pointless why Cloud became a SOLDIER;

5) Following point 4, we make the entire story of ff7 totally useless and no sense;



Come on, it's fine to believe that the devs are over the top, but totally burning a project just to please some pseudo CA fans (yes CA fans but not ff7 fans) really seems like something that clashes with a something called logic.
You're probably referring to me but I don't know. That being said I think its important to mention that I don't believe any of the things you listed. Like none at all. I may seem like because I am more pessimistic but I am very much team cloti. I simply don't like the way Square Enix handels this 27 year strong LTD.
 
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Deleted member 26496

Guest
aruuu has 134.1k followers on twitch
frankielollia has 27.2k


Maximilian has 1.3m who prefers a cloti.


If we are living in the same earth, the difference is huge
No need to be condescending about it you know.
That being said, I like Max a lot but he is also nowhere near as outspoken about it at all. Not that it matters to much since it wasn't my main point anyway and more like another thing to add to a pile.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Maximilian has 1.3m who prefers a cloti.
It's not even that he "prefers" CT, even if I think he does enjoy it. He just sees it as the story and he will tell his viewers. Also Max has a huge following because he has a lot of people following him for other games, but he's the biggest in the FFVII game, yes. Also people probably follow him even if they're not a fan of the game and they hear his opinions about the game too.
 

c.lupara

Pro Adventurer
You're probably referring to me but I don't know. That being said I think its important to mention that I don't believe any of the things you listed. Like none at all. I may seem like because I am more pessimistic but I am very much team cloti. I simply don't like the way Square Enix handels this 27 year strong LTD.
No i was not referring to you.
It's just a brief analysis of what bringing CA canon means to me. Oh and by the way I am not a CT/CA shipper.





Actually, now a question has come to mind that maybe someone more attentive can answer: I've read around some users who say something along the lines of "The game pushes CA". I guess I missed some part of the game because I don't remember any of this.
 

Hix

Pro Adventurer
aruuu has 134.1k followers on twitch
frankielollia has 27.2k


Maximilian has 1.3m who prefers a cloti.


If we are living in the same earth, the difference is huge

I mean, it's about the quality over the quantity.

Max is a FGC guy at heart and Final Fantasy fan second, who has built a massive core of people who would listen to him read a phone book. Joe Gamer will tune in, watch him stream and see the obvious, yeah Cloud loves Tifa, doesn't get more overt than a kiss, there you go.

ARUUU et al are CA shippers first, CA shippers second. Their entire veiwer-base is an "all hands on deck" of people for whom facts are to be avoided. Such individuals already are content to eschew the source material in favor of head-canons and they tune in to her to validate that.

Your average gamer isn't interested in knowing that Nobuo Uematsu's social media intern once tweeted that No Promises To Keep was a love ballad, or that Lorenn Allred watched some Clerith Youtube videos and understood that the song must be solely about CA. The simplicity of removing one's self from the LTD discourse and looking at the overall picture is a revelation, believe me: Aerith dies, Tifa lives, gets a kiss and discovers in the Lifestream that Cloud has always loved her, once she heals his broken mind they connect under the Highwind as couples do and end up living together with adopted children. Nobody really cares about koibito tsunagi, it's all shipper nonsense and it's easy for even level headed observers to over-estimate the importance of such things based on the loudest voice in the room.

The default position of the Final Fantasy VII compilation is Cloud/Tifa and Zack/Aerith. People like Max don't go beyond that because there's no need to - they just play the game and appreciate it for what it is. I have no doubt your average gamer does the same.
 

liuliuliu

Pro Adventurer
No need to be condescending about it you know.
That being said, I like Max a lot but he is also nowhere near as outspoken about it at all. Not that it matters to much since it wasn't my main point anyway and more like another thing to add to a pile.
Yah I’m just interested in where you got the impression that CA is the majority.
 
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Deleted member 26496

Guest
I mean, it's about the quality over the quantity.

Max is a FGC guy at heart and Final Fantasy fan second, who has built a massive core of people who would listen to him read a phone book. Joe Gamer will tune in, watch him stream and see the obvious, yeah Cloud loves Tifa, doesn't get more overt than a kiss, there you go.

ARUUU et al are CA shippers first, CA shippers second. Their entire veiwer-base is an "all hands on deck" of people for whom facts are to be avoided. Such individuals already are content to eschew the source material in favor of head-canons and they tune in to her to validate that.

Your average gamer isn't interested in knowing that Nobuo Uematsu's social media intern once tweeted that No Promises To Keep was a love ballad, or that Lorenn Allred watched some Clerith Youtube videos and understood that the song must be solely about CA. The simplicity of removing one's self from the LTD discourse and looking at the overall picture is a revelation, believe me: Aerith dies, Tifa lives, gets a kiss and discovers in the Lifestream that Cloud has always loved her, once she heals his broken mind they connect under the Highwind as couples do and end up living together with adopted children. Nobody really cares about koibito tsunagi, it's all shipper nonsense and it's easy for even level headed observers to over-estimate the importance of such things based on the loudest voice in the room.

The default position of the Final Fantasy VII compilation is Cloud/Tifa and Zack/Aerith. People like Max don't go beyond that because there's no need to - they just play the game and appreciate it for what it is. I have no doubt your average gamer does the same.
That is a really good point that I did not think of. I'd say you're right about that for sure.
 

LunarTarotGirl

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Lunarae
No i was not referring to you.
It's just a brief analysis of what bringing CA canon means to me. Oh and by the way I am not a CT/CA shipper.





Actually, now a question has come to mind that maybe someone more attentive can answer: I've read around some users who say something along the lines of "The game pushes CA". I guess I missed some part of the game because I don't remember any of this.
I don't think it pushes CA but I don't see any instances where it's really discouraged either in it's own route.

If you compare other scenes and get all the dates CT is encouraged.

But I wouldn't say CA is pushed nor is it ever really shot down if you play the Aerith route and no CA is going to have low affection w Aerith. They aren't going to see the LA date nor LA dream date.

And I think that's basically how they're keeping CA fans from getting too upset by the CT stuff.

I think that's at least for the devs the advantage of the routes set up. They get to tell the story they want without upsetting any section of the fanbase.

I don't think this means anything is optional or you can choose your own ending or anything but I do think that's what purpose the different routes serve.
 
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Deleted member 26496

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Yah I’m just interested in where you got the impression that CA is the majority.
I mentioned them before. But like I said I could be completely wrong.

Now with the viral kiss, probably more people will be on clotis side I imagine
 
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