SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Ryushikaze]

On the way to a smile: Case of Tifa.

It's a worthless line, I'm not even sure why it's there. It can't be referring to her situation with Cloud and Marlene since she says friendS, plural, and last time I checked people don't refer to their children as friends.

But it seems weird for it to be referring to the rest of AVALANCHE, because from what we're shown in Case of Tifa, they're not really shown to be helping "weather the storm" Tifa speaks of.

I believe the line refers partly to 7th Heaven Avalanche and partly to the adventuring party, given that IIRC the context of it coming up refers to Tifa's doubts and guilt. It's definitely presented as being a different situation to her life with Cloud and Marlene and later Denzel.

I'll back up your logic even more.

In the same way that I advocate for extremely limited appearances by Aerith, I think there needs to be a real break with Cloud. We have to insist on the fact that his mind is giving out. Just as much as it needs to be emphasized that Cloud was the team's most important asset. The player has to live with this loss. We need to feel how important Cloud was. His leadership. His power.

This can't just be a minor setback. But a significant event that leaves the team in a kind of impasse.

Yeah, thinking back on it, I had the thought that perhaps for at least part of the leadup to the Crater, Cloud is a guest party member, like Red 13 was in Remake. Assisting the party, out of player control, and just plain brutal towards enemies.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Hmm

I do wonder how Japanese would express a makeshift family structure/found family. It’s a very non traditional setup, so I wonder if it’s difficult to express literally, so they took a poetic route? Pondering out of ignorance on my part.

I can't say for sure but I kind of doubt it, considering how prevalent foster/adoptive families are in Japanese fairy tales. I'm also not sure if the laws have changed but when it was still illegal, homosexual couples in Japan got married, so to speak, by adopting the other person into the family name.

So I kind of imagine that they might have more complex terminology for it than in the West? But since I'm not an expert, you can take my words with a pinch of salt.

 

[Eerie]

Searching for "family" in CoT:
On p4:

“I like ‘Seventh Heaven,’”


That was the one name I wanted to avoid. Just having the past in me was enough. I wasn’t sure it was right to use a name that would remind me of it.


“Why?”


“Because it was fun. If we make it Seventh Heaven it’ll be fun again.”


We had forgotten. We all had our ambitions, but Marlene wasn’t part of that. To her, Seventh Heaven was a happy home where her family and friends were.

“Don’t worry, I’ll be a good girl for them!”


Hearing those words, Cloud and Tifa exchanged glances.


… for us?


“I’ll take care of Cloud and Tifa!”


Looking back, Barret shouted, “Do your best!”


His voice was a little shaky.


“Keep the family together and keep at it!”

Friends were a necessity to me so that I could live on without being suppressed by the guilt I felt. Even if they all bore the same scars, the same sins. We couldn’t live without comforting and encouraging each other. Maybe you could call that family. We just had to work together and do our best. Together with friend we can call family, there’s nothing we can’t get through.


“I’ll put Cloud in our family too.”


“I appreciate that.”

After Cloud thanked Marlene’s innocent offer with his usual serious expression, he glanced at Tifa. She nodded a little.


Would this complicate things?


Tifa decided that she would stop worrying about the relationship between the two of them.

This is on p4 and 5. I believe that she refers friends as family because at first she thinks the family is going to be her, Marlene and Barret. Cloud is included after this.

Clearly her and Cloud's relationship isn't defined as friendship only if you look at the line it's more complicated than that.

It had been several months since they opened the bar. There was a call from Cloud, who was out collecting provisions. He wanted to know if it would be ok to print up a lifetime voucher to eat and drink for free at Seventh Heaven, in exchange for something. Tifa agreed, never asking what it was for. She knew Cloud must have wanted something desperately if he was offering to trade something like that.

This is again not something you do with someone who's only a friend, you do this with someone with whom you share finances and who gets the last say: if you're not in couple, you don't push this kind of demand onto friends. I mean a LIFETIME VOUCHER TO EAT AND DRINK FOR FREE??? Hello this is the time Cloud intends to spend living by Tifa's side. I don't know why people are ignoring this.

He also acts like he did something wrong for doing things behind her back. She feels they are becoming a real family - it's not only the bond between themselves, but also with Marlene!

People who bring up CoT to disprove CT really don't know anything about living together with a SO.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Searching for "family" in CoT:
On p4:




This is on p4 and 5. I believe that she refers friends as family because at first she thinks the family is going to be her, Marlene and Barret. Cloud is included after this.

Clearly her and Cloud's relationship isn't defined as friendship only if you look at the line it's more complicated than that.



This is again not something you do with someone who's only a friend, you do this with someone with whom you share finances and who gets the last say: if you're not in couple, you don't push this kind of demand onto friends. I mean a LIFETIME VOUCHER TO EAT AND DRINK FOR FREE??? Hello this is the time Cloud intends to spend living by Tifa's side. I don't know why people are ignoring this.

He also acts like he did something wrong for doing things behind her back. She feels they are becoming a real family - it's not only the bond between themselves, but also with Marlene!

People who bring up CoT to disprove CT really don't know anything about living together with a SO.

Makes sense to me.

If you step back and think about it, it’s an odd situation Cloud and Tifa are in. They’re starting a relationship and cohabitation, but they’re also closely tied to Barret and Marlene ( Tifa always struck me as like this aunt to Marlene who takes care of her like a mother would. If you know someone with siblings with large age gaps, it feels familiar ).

Cloud, who comes from a single parent household, may not be used to that type of family structure but he’s willing to try because Tifa. Future passages back that up because Cloud, outside of depression, guilt, and a terminal disease, tries his best to function in that setting. He stumbles and bumbles his way through, but he still goes for it.

While I’d really like to see a glimpse into the future where they’ve got it all figured out, I do appreciate the story trying to put on display how hard it would be to go back to a normal life after the world nearly gets cracked in half.

 

[LNK]

You know, I've been speculating we're going to start PT3 with Cloud as the main POV character again, and then obvious switch to Tifa once Cloud leaves the party, but what if we start with Tifa as the lead character out of battle instead of Cloud from the get go? Let her be the lead through the entire Icicle/ Gaea/ Crater/ Junon /??? / Mideel sequence, really drive home that we're losing control of Cloud and that this is Tifa's game as much as his, really.

That is actually a pretty cool idea. I really dislike that Cloud has to be in the party most of the time in ff7, so this would be a good way of mixing things up a bit more

 

[abzy1200]

I mean a LIFETIME VOUCHER TO EAT AND DRINK FOR FREE??? Hello this is the time Cloud intends to spend living by Tifa's side

I swear he trades this for the bike and the voucher isn't for him, no?

It's definitely an indication of their bond that he can ask for something like this, but it's not really an indication of how long he intends to spend by her side.

When Tifa and Cloud were alone, Cloud said, “It’s not like you to be troubled by your thoughts.”

“It’s… Just the way I am.”

“No. You’re much more cheerful and strong. If you’ve forgotten the way you were then, I’ll be there to remind you.”

“You really will?”

“Probably,” Cloud said blushing.

I think this is a much better indication of Cloud's plans. He's basically said here that he'll always be there for her. And Cloud obviously knows the implication since he blushes, he doesn't mean it in a platonic way.

 

[nars305]

Makes sense to me.

If you step back and think about it, it’s an odd situation Cloud and Tifa are in. They’re starting a relationship and cohabitation, but they’re also closely tied to Barret and Marlene ( Tifa always struck me as like this aunt to Marlene who takes care of her like a mother would. If you know someone with siblings with large age gaps, it feels familiar ).

Cloud, who comes from a single parent household, may not be used to that type of family structure but he’s willing to try because Tifa. Future passages back that up because Cloud, outside of depression, guilt, and a terminal disease, tries his best to function in that setting. He stumbles and bumbles his way through, but he still goes for it.

While I’d really like to see a glimpse into the future where they’ve got it all figured out, I do appreciate the story trying to put on display how hard it would be to go back to a normal life after the world nearly gets cracked in half.

Honestly, this is why I like how they are in CoT and AC. Obligatory I have my complaints, but it just feels more mature and real to me. It adds a lot of depth to the aftermath and their relationship in a realistic way.

But I have no problem begging for something more light hearted like you said, where they have it all figured out. I think we have enough material showing us their guilt, trauma, moving on, etc…

 

[Eerie]

I swear he trades this for the bike and the voucher isn't for him, no?

It's definitely an indication of their bond that he can ask for something like this, but it's not really an indication of how long he intends to spend by her side.

The voucher is for the guy he buys (aka trades) the bike for.

And of course he intends to remain by her side forever; you don't push a lifetime voucher for freebies on someone you don't want to stay with. But yes, this discussion you've copied is also showing this. At the end of the day, Cloud loves Tifa and has no intention of ever leaving her side. This is also why he's so afraid of losing her and the kids.

 

[abzy1200]

So uh what's the deal with Leslie and why do I keep seeing people draw conclusions about Cloti from his story.

I know it's got something to with lovers reuniting, but what exactly is so similar about his story to Cloti that it's a reasonable place to look for crafting theories?

I never really did his sidequests and I wasn't really paying much attention to him the last time I played remake so...

 

[nars305]

So uh what's the deal with Leslie and why do I keep seeing people draw conclusions about Cloti from his story.

I know it's got something to with lovers reuniting, but what exactly is so similar about his story to Cloti that it's a reasonable place to look for crafting theories?

I never really did his sidequests and I wasn't really paying much attention to him the last time I played remake so...

I’m going to assume it’s because in Rebirth his side quest is a Tifa side quest and it’s about him finding Merle, his lover. She gave him a reunion flower necklace in Remake.

So reuniting lovers = Tifa and Cloud link (?)

 

[Sacky]

I’m going to assume it’s because in Rebirth his side quest is a Tifa side quest and it’s about him finding Merle, his lover. She gave him a reunion flower necklace in Remake.

So reuniting lovers = Tifa and Cloud link (?)

He's very linked to Tifa always part of her quests or scenes. He is looking for his lost lover and does the hand over heart pose that Tifa does. So he's kind off a mirror of Tifa looking for Cloud and will probably be the one giving her hope when Cloud is missing. Post meteor he finds his wife and has a kid with her

 

[pxl_pushr]

He's very linked to Tifa always part of her quests or scenes. He is looking for his lost lover and does the hand over heart pose that Tifa does. So he's kind off a mirror of Tifa looking for Cloud and will probably be the one giving her hope when Cloud is missing. Post meteor he finds his wife and has a kid with her

Tifa’s got a soft spot for separated lovers and people aiming to get someone else’s attention romantically.

I think it’s The Kids Are Alright where Leslie and Merle first show up in the compilation. Tethering them to Tifa and Cloud is seen as a roundabout way of soft confirming their relationship around ACC, right along with Denzel’s parents looking very much like Cloud and Tifa.

If my understanding is right, then the theory is that Nojima surrounding Cloud and Tifa with this stuff is way of saying they’re basically married with kids without making either too much older or putting Tifa in a situation where she’s unlikely to string a 10-hit combo when needed.

An interesting solution, if true, but it is still frustratingly obtuse when you don’t just straight up say Cloud and Tifa are common law married.

 

[Eerie]

I mean it’s not that deep; it’s just that his quest to find his lover mirrors Tifa’s to find the real Cloud.

I’m pretty sure we’ll see Leslie and Merle reunite just like Cloud and Tifa will.

There’s also some old LTD blood there since in Remake CAs insisted that the Leslie wanting to reunite mirrored CA (that Cloud thought about Aerith when he saw the pendant). But with Leslie being tied to a Tifa quest it is clear that this was not the intent.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I mean it’s not that deep; it’s just that his quest to find his lover mirrors Tifa’s to find the real Cloud.

I’m pretty sure we’ll see Leslie and Merle reunite just like Cloud and Tifa will.

There’s also some old LTD blood there since in Remake CAs insisted that the Leslie wanting to reunite mirrored CA (that Cloud thought about Aerith when he saw the pendant). But with Leslie being tied to a Tifa quest it is clear that this was not the intent.

I've said it several times now, but Square has a habit of putting out something, CA has tried to claim it as 'theirs' and putting information in a sequel of some sort to crush that notion. KH, Dissidia, even the Remake project now.

 

[Sacky]

I've said it several times now, but Square has a habit of putting out something, CA has tried to claim it as 'theirs' and putting information in a sequel of some sort to crush that notion. KH, Dissidia, even the Remake project now.

I think Leslie will play a part in the main story of part 3 he had his scene in remake so it makes sense with Tifa searching for Cloud. The do keep trying to claim the reunion flower aswell somehow. Despite the fact its so obvious they put It outside Tifa's house

 

[Ryeleigh]

There’s also some old LTD blood there since in Remake CAs insisted that the Leslie wanting to reunite mirrored CA (that Cloud thought about Aerith when he saw the pendant). But with Leslie being tied to a Tifa quest it is clear that this was not the intent.

I liked how they implied that all the resolutions happened in Remake; Cloud said "I can feel her calling me", most likely referring to Aerith's Not Our Aerith resolution, Barret got an "apparently, you were loitering in a rather lovely flower garden", and Tifa got to explain the reunion flower in the sewers. It would be nice if they did the same with the Rebirth GS dates but I guess that would be more difficult, lol.

As an aside, the pacing in Remake is really funny.

 

[Eerie]

Cloud said "I can feel her calling me"

He actually didn't say that in JP - I don't remember right now because the FR was botched too. Either way, Cloud feels Jenova's calling, not Aerith's during this whole part up until they see Sephiroth with Jenova in the Shinra Tower.

 

[Ryeleigh]

He actually didn't say that in JP - I don't remember right now because the FR was botched too. Either way, Cloud feels Jenova's calling, not Aerith's during this whole part up until they see Sephiroth with Jenova in the Shinra Tower.

Ah, that's too bad. I thought it was a cute reference to Aerithr's resolution.

 

[frosty]

So uh what's the deal with Leslie and why do I keep seeing people draw conclusions about Cloti from his story.

I know it's got something to with lovers reuniting, but what exactly is so similar about his story to Cloti that it's a reasonable place to look for crafting theories?

I never really did his sidequests and I wasn't really paying much attention to him the last time I played remake so...

I don't really see it but think alot of people draw parallels between Leslie and Evan with Cloud?

Leslie = reunion flower, looking for, not giving up on, reuniting with someone you love, Tifa's quest line etc

Evan = Adopting a kid with Kyrie, Cloud essentially saying his situation is the same as Evan, Kyrie, and Bits i.e. a "real family"

Both seem a bit of a stretch to me but i always did find The kids are alright to be pretty strange. Like it was released after AC, where there was no other title to promote, it didn't feature much of the beloved og characters and just then suddenly some random casual confirmation that yes, Cloud does indeed think he is Dad, Tifa is Mom, Denzel and Marlene are their "real" kids

 

[nars305]

Both seem a bit of a stretch to me but i always did find The kids are alright to be pretty strange. Like it was released after AC, where there was no other title to promote, it didn't feature much of the beloved og characters and just then suddenly some random casual confirmation that yes, Cloud does indeed think he is Dad, Tifa is Mom, Denzel and Marlene are their "real" kids

Yeah when I think of these kind of connections/theories I think they’re cute but not something I personally read into too much.

As far as TKAA, I was surprised to find what Cloud says about family to be at the very end of the book. I was hoping to read a little something after AC and it turned out being just a little bit after everyone is healed on the movie lmao.

 

[Eerie]

I don't really see it but think alot of people draw parallels between Leslie and Evan with Cloud?

Leslie = reunion flower, looking for, not giving up on, reuniting with someone you love, Tifa's quest line etc

Evan = Adopting a kid with Kyrie, Cloud essentially saying his situation is the same as Evan, Kyrie, and Bits i.e. a "real family"

Both seem a bit of a stretch to me but i always did find The kids are alright to be pretty strange. Like it was released after AC, where there was no other title to promote, it didn't feature much of the beloved og characters and just then suddenly some random casual confirmation that yes, Cloud does indeed think he is Dad, Tifa is Mom, Denzel and Marlene are their "real" kids

Well there's a reason why I say that TKAA's ending is the perfect ACC ending. I think Nojima must have felt it was missing too and when he was tasked with this book he must have added because it would give a true closure to Cloud and Tifa's story. In TKAA we're definitely closer to Remake trilogy!Cloud, that's for sure.

And yes, parallels are made with CT to give more weight to CT with the other canon pairs they're describing. Nojima pretty much works by entangling his pairs together, and drawing comparisons. These pairs stand on their own - especially in FFVII case for CT and ZA - but he enjoys adding strokes to them to connect them.

 

[Sacky]

x.com

x.com

Really cool thread on Tifa and her link to mythology
aswell as cloti

 

[abzy1200]

Leslie = reunion flower, looking for, not giving up on, reuniting with someone you love, Tifa's quest line etc

From what I can tell, Leslie's situation feels more Zerith-y than Cloti.

Especially with the reunion pin in the dream date. Leslie has one of those, no?

It being a Tifa quest is a bit of a curveball, though.

 

[Eerie]

From what I can tell, Leslie's situation feels more Zerith-y than Cloti.

Especially with the reunion pin in the dream date. Leslie has one of those, no?

It being a Tifa quest is a bit of a curveball, though.

I mean, how? Leslie doesn't know Aerith nor Zack, but he does know Cloud and Tifa. It's them who help him out, and... it's them who have the strongest reunion theme.

 

[pxl_pushr]

From what I can tell, Leslie's situation feels more Zerith-y than Cloti.

Especially with the reunion pin in the dream date. Leslie has one of those, no?

It being a Tifa quest is a bit of a curveball, though.

Separation and reunion can apply to both CT and ZA, just in different ways.

I think it’s less that the sidequest subplot is a 1:1 parallel and more that Tifa is directly sympathetic to Merle in her desire for Leslie to find her, and in Leslie for his vengeance blinding him to the message Merle left him.

Wouldn’t be shocked if this thread ends with Merle actually going and finding Leslie since that seems to be the theme of those being guided by the reunion flower ( it starts with one person pursuing and fighting to return and ends with the other party having to go where they are instead in an interesting role reversal )