SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Shadowstorm]

Speaking as an expert on FF4, I'd say Aerith fits better as Rydia, and Zack is a lot like Edge. Cecil has a lot of arc similarities to Cloud but for different reasons, and Rosa is absolutely the unflaggingly supportive childhood friend turned love interest.
It's the rest of the cast where the matchups start getting very strange, though. Like do you match Cid Highwind with Cid Pollendina or Kain Highwind because he fits archetypes of both. Where do you slot Cait/Reeve or Red?

I should thank you for reccomending it! Visually it kinda aged better than ff7 in many ways(this might be my soft spot for the SNES speaking) and I've really been enjoying it so far.

I can't believe I didn't consider Aerith as Rydia that fits way better. I had opted for Zack as Cecil mainly because of the whole questioning the thing he once looked up to thing, but his arc has plenty in common with Cloud as well. I've only just rescued Rosa but she for sure has the same supportive vibes as Tifa. I think there may be a few characters I haven't met yet so I'm not sure about the rest. Maybe Barret as Tellah? He's already a dad with a revenge quest even if Marlene isn't the one dead.

 

[GamerSkull]

I think there was a conversation earlier about in the thread but the dynamics between Clerith is essentially the same with Squall and Rinoa. But there is no overlap for some reason. That’s the story CA shippers should embrace.

 

[Fakewings_]

I don’t understand why people see C&A as having a deeply spiritual bond. To describe such a relationship, people often refer to the strong understanding between both sides, where one becomes an emotional support through both joy and hardship for the other person. And they only able to share all their thoughts, interests, and concerns with each other but no one else. It's a kind of soulmate relationship, but not romantic love. But throughout the entire Remakes, I didn’t FEEL that deep connection between C&A. Yes, A confides in C about her loneliness and desires at times. C is also very willing to listen to her, support, and encourage her, but it feels similar to how C treats Tifa and everyone else.
On the other hand, I haven’t seen C open up to A in the same way. All of C’s expressions are just being more open with everyone, smiling more when with A… So what exactly are the 'deep' aspects between C&A?
Sorry for my bad English cause it’s not my first language

 

[Ryushikaze]

I should thank you for reccomending it! Visually it kinda aged better than ff7 in many ways(this might be my soft spot for the SNES speaking) and I've really been enjoying it so far.

I can't believe I didn't consider Aerith as Rydia that fits way better. I had opted for Zack as Cecil mainly because of the whole questioning the thing he once looked up to thing, but his arc has plenty in common with Cloud as well. I've only just rescued Rosa but she for sure has the same supportive vibes as Tifa. I think there may be a few characters I haven't met yet so I'm not sure about the rest. Maybe Barret as Tellah? He's already a dad with a revenge quest even if Marlene isn't the one dead.

Tellah as the crotchety but passionate old coot does fit Barret pretty well. You're just past Damcyan and on your way to Fabul, yes? You're not quite yet to the part of Cecil's arc that's similar to Cloud's, IMO. Of course there's even more twists and revelations further down the line I won't even hint at yet.

I think there was a conversation earlier about in the thread but the dynamics between Clerith is essentially the same with Squall and Rinoa. But there is no overlap for some reason. That’s the story CA shippers should embrace.

Specifically the "Cheerful spunky woman enters the life of a very grumpy man and through her dogged tirelessness melts his heart and love blooms."
The problem is that Cloud and Squall are both angry brooding hero types, but they are very different in the cause and expression of their brooding. Cloud is trying desperately to be cool so he will be noticed by someone who's noticed him already. Squall is desperately trying to keep everyone at arm's length because he's decided that the pain of losing someone is too great so he doesn't want to let anyone get close enough to care about again.
Rinoa meanwhile is what happens when you mix Tifa and Aerith back together. She's the sheltered princess but also the leader of a resistance against an unjust government but also she has a special destiny she barely knows about.

I don’t understand why people see C&A as having a deeply spiritual bond. To describe such a relationship, people often refer to the strong understanding between both sides, where one becomes an emotional support through both joy and hardship for the other person. And they only able to share all their thoughts, interests, and concerns with each other but no one else. It's a kind of soulmate relationship, but not romantic love. But throughout the entire Remakes, I didn’t FEEL that deep connection between C&A. Yes, A confides in C about her loneliness and desires at times. C is also very willing to listen to her, support, and encourage her, but it feels similar to how C treats Tifa and everyone else.
On the other hand, I haven’t seen C open up to A in the same way. All of C’s expressions are just being more open with everyone, smiling more when with A… So what exactly are the 'deep' aspects between C&A?
Sorry for my bad English cause it’s not my first language

There really aren't many, especially once you look at their relationship in comparison to Zack and Aerith's and notice ALL the ways in which she's trying to mirror that relationship and Cloud just isn't having it. When Aerith isn't trying to shoehorn him into a romantic role he has a much better time around her. When she does, he's annoyed or thinks she's being weird, something she dislikes being called.

 

[Shadowstorm]

I don’t understand why people see C&A as having a deeply spiritual bond. To describe such a relationship, people often refer to the strong understanding between both sides, where one becomes an emotional support through both joy and hardship for the other person. And they only able to share all their thoughts, interests, and concerns with each other but no one else. It's a kind of soulmate relationship, but not romantic love. But throughout the entire Remakes, I didn’t FEEL that deep connection between C&A. Yes, A confides in C about her loneliness and desires at times. C is also very willing to listen to her, support, and encourage her, but it feels similar to how C treats Tifa and everyone else.
On the other hand, I haven’t seen C open up to A in the same way. All of C’s expressions are just being more open with everyone, smiling more when with A… So what exactly are the 'deep' aspects between C&A?
Sorry for my bad English cause it’s not my first language

I don't often find myself agreeing with the hardcore Clerith crowd on either of their characterizations much less their dynamic so I'm not sure how good of a response I can give in regards to their pov, but I could tell you what I personally like about their bond without necessarily shipping them romantically?

I think the main thing is that they're both deeply lonely and somewhat socially stunted people. In Aerith's case it obviously comes from spending the earliest years of her life in captivity and the later years under Shinra's watch with a very protective mother. It's heavily implied she just did not have any peers she was close to at all until she met Zack (I'd argue their was a class barrier between her and the other kids at play there too but that's a whole discussion on it's own). For Cloud it comes from a combination of him isolating himself as a kid and the rest of the village blaming him for what happened to Tifa. Hardcore Clerith shippers also believe Tifa bullied Cloud, so as inaccurate as it is it does add to this theme. It comes from very different places and manifests in very different ways but I do think they instinctively recognize this in each other, and it encourages them to want to spend more time together. Along with the Zack factor, of course.

They're also both comically bad at the emotions thing. We always talk about "opposites" in the main 4 in terms of extroverted vs introverted but I'd argue the real contrast between them is Zack and Tifa are emotionally intelligent and Aerith and Cloud are absolutely not. This definitely is more my interpretation that a popular Clerith one since I think they make Aerith out to be a lot wiser and more caring than she really is, but it's something I find very compelling about them. Cloud puts on a tough exterior to avoid dealing with his feelings, but Aerith's teasing and upbeat nature serves the same purpose. When they're together they're never in a situation where someone forces them to sit with what they're feeling. Aerith won't ask Cloud to open up and Cloud won't argue with Aerith when she rapidly switches topics to something lighter. I think it helps them feel comfortable with each other and even allows Aerith to actually be vulnerable about her own feelings on a few occasions.

There's also the fact that being around each other allows them to live out their respective fantasies of seeing Zack again and being the cool 1st class soldier. This is obviously the shallow and fake part of their relationship, but it's rooted in a shared grief they aren't even aware of. I belive that if Aerith had lived they would have bonded quite a bit mourning Zack.

People also latch onto Aerith wanting to find the real Cloud as a sign of a deeper connection, but imo the point is that she never got to know that guy and that was a deep tragedy. Their bond could have been very deep but I think the point is that it never got to reach that point.

If we're also looking at the OG a case could be made that she seems to bring out a softer side of him when they first meet, but Remake got rid of that element by extending his time in sector 7 so I wouldn't count that anymore personally

 

[Shadowstorm]

Tellah as the crotchety but passionate old coot does fit Barret pretty well. You're just past Damcyan and on your way to Fabul, yes? You're not quite yet to the part of Cecil's arc that's similar to Cloud's, IMO. Of course there's even more twists and revelations further down the line I won't even hint at yet.

Oh, I forgot there was another rescuing Rosa situation haha. I actually meant the second time, though I managed to play a little bit more today and got to hang with some dwarves and learned that instead of 3 dead kids I only have 2 dead kids and one that got aged up as if she's a comic book legacy kid. So you know doing a little better in the child endangerment department. There might be more I don't know but I did get some Cloud vibes with Cecil having basically and identity overhaul too, albeit a different flavor of it.

edit: realized just a second too late I probably should have just edited this into the previous post to avoid double posting. Sorry about that

 

[Ryushikaze]

Oh, I forgot there was another rescuing Rosa situation haha. I actually meant the second time,

I was trying to be conservative with my guess on where you were in the plot to avoid spoiling you.

though I managed to play a little bit more today and got to hang with some dwarves and learned that instead of 3 dead kids I only have 2 dead kids and one that got aged up as if she's a comic book legacy kid. So you know doing a little better in the child endangerment department. There might be more I don't know but I did get some Cloud vibes with Cecil having basically and identity overhaul too, albeit a different flavor of it.

Yeah, Cecil's Paladin turn and needing to look inward and face inner demons hit very similar to Cloud. I do wish the game might have done more with Dark and Light Cecil though. It was done magnificently in Dissidia.
I'm still fucking gobsmacked he never showed up in Kingdom Hearts in any capacity.

edit: realized just a second too late I probably should have just edited this into the previous post to avoid double posting. Sorry about that

You actually don't have any dead kids. Palom and Porom are self petrified, rather than dead. You can actually attempt to use petrification curatives on them and the game notes that they are keeping themselves that way. Tellah is fucking D-E-D dead though.
Also, since you are down in the underworld, I STRONGLY recommend checking out all the caves you can, especially the very annoying one with the damage floors you need to use float for. It can be a major pain but it's got powerful rewards and some fun lore in it too as it's part of a sidequest.

 

[Shadowstorm]

Yeah, Cecil's Paladin turn and needing to look inward and face inner demons hit very similar to Cloud. I do wish the game might have done more with Dark and Light Cecil though. It was done magnificently in Dissidia.

I'll have to check out Dissidia once I've got a few more FF titles under my belt so I won't be too lost, it sounds interesting. And yeah, FF4 is good as it is but the concepts there are compelling enough to make me wish it could get the remake treatment as well, I'd love to see it fleshed out more.

You actually don't have any dead kids. Palom and Porom are self petrified, rather than dead. You can actually attempt to use petrification curatives on them and the game notes that they are keeping themselves that way. Tellah is fucking D-E-D dead though.

That just feels like a fate worse than death though! I thought 7 was supposed to be the sad one I wasn't ready for them to do me like that!

Also, since you are down in the underworld, I STRONGLY recommend checking out all the caves you can, especially the very annoying one with the damage floors you need to use float for. It can be a major pain but it's got powerful rewards and some fun lore in it too as it's part of a sidequest.

Noted! I missed a lot of side content playing the OGFF7 so I appreciate having a heads up so I can avoid the same here. Should I be looking around now or will I have the option to go on a tour once I have the airship back?

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'll have to check out Dissidia once I've got a few more FF titles under my belt so I won't be too lost, it sounds interesting. And yeah, FF4 is good as it is but the concepts there are compelling enough to make me wish it could get the remake treatment as well, I'd love to see it fleshed out more.

That just feels like a fate worse than death though! I thought 7 was supposed to be the sad one I wasn't ready for them to do me like that!

Noted! I missed a lot of side content playing the OGFF7 so I appreciate having a heads up so I can avoid the same here. Should I be looking around now or will I have the option to go on a tour once I have the airship back?

Airship. I mention this one because the rewards are more powerful the sooner you get them and if you do the sidequest when it first becomes available, you get an extra reward (The cave, irritatingly, requires three total trips to complete. One for the sidequest, one to go on a different path that's mutually exclusive with getting the sidequest, and one to come back and progress the sidequest and get the partial quest rewards)

 

[Fakewings_]

I think it helps them feel comfortable with each other and even allows Aerith to actually be vulnerable about her own feelings on a few occasions.

I do agree with you from this perspective. C feels quite comfortable with A, and the only time C opened up to A, I think, was at the water tower, but it was about a topic related to T.
To have a clearer comparison, I tried relating the relationship between C&A to Ichigo and Rukia in Bleach. Rukia is the one who lifted Ichigo's spirits many times, acted as his guide, and was the person for whom Ichigo risked his life (but that doesn't mean I ship IchiRuki, because I understand the author’s intention from the beginning when Orihime was introduced into the picture). Therefore, it's clear that the bond between C&A, IMO, is quite weak and loose.
The devs had plenty of opportunities to deepen the relationship, making C feel more of a loss when A dies, through scenes at the water tower, the beach... But no, T is the only person C truly opens up to and reveals his dark side and fears. T is the only one C subconsciously accepted, becoming the reason behind all of C’s transformations.
That's why I don't understand why C is so haunted by A's death in AC, even more than by Zack's, and even more than by the death of his own mother.

 

[Maidenofwar]

If you don't understand then you're not going to, even JP streamers who ship CT say lover tie when CA are standing back to back with fingers intertwined at the end of the game.

CA's follow up scene at the well is also not about Tifa it's about Cloud reassuring Aerith that she can get mad and vent to him if she wants to that he's there for her for that.
The beach scene is also detailed, well done, and shows their bonding.

Cloud flat up returns to himself into the Temple of them Ancients seeing and remembering Aerith on Loveless Street.

He also crawls on the ground, trying to get after Aerith in the Sleeping Forest. Something the last time he did when loosing Claudia in Nibelheim.

They don't have a weak bond.

Something I was also thinking about was how both Aerith and Tifa work together throughout Rebirth even through chapter 11 and beyond, they support, shield and encourage Cloud in moments of vulnerability. That's how I couldn't understand those who said they didn't do well with Aerith and Tifa in Rebirth.

 

[Fakewings_]

CA's follow up scene at the well is also not about Tifa it's about Cloud reassuring Aerith that she can get mad and vent to him if she wants to that he's there for her for that.
The beach scene is also detailed, well done, and shows their bonding.

as i said before C is willing to listen, share, and encourage A. However, C isn’t yet ready to reciprocate by sharing his own feelings and thoughts with A. I’m not talking about the romantic aspect here, just wanting to analyze the depth of the relationship between the two. Of course, this is just my point of view, so take it easy.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Well Cloud is often vulnerable around Aerith (and Tifa) often while having an episode, this might be out of his control, but doesn't change the fact that they are there for him, often holding his hand, with gentle words, or watching over him while he rests.

In terms of heart to hearts I think Cloud wanted to over Zack but couldn't have a serious discussion there for obvious reasons. Some things they just couldn't push too far on at that stage of the game.

You see Cloud's closeness with Aerith or vulnerability in the little things like hand open to take in the dream date, wanting photos together or of Aerith, his enthusiasm when he picks a gift then gets annoyed when it wasn't what he wanted, like a kid, how easily he hugs her back in the church, and the embraces/caresses in the Forgotten Capital. He remembers important things like the White Materia being her mom's and what it meant to her.

I saw a collage thing once that shows they hold hands over a dozen times across Remake/Rebirth, amongst other things, I feel like Aerith and Cloud have a good "skinship" across the games (not saying CT doesn't)

 

[GamerSkull]

I would say Cloud and Aerith do have a strong bond, and he definitely does feel an attachment to her especially after her death. I just don’t necessarily ascribe romantic feelings to it.

Maybe there might have been something there before she dies but I would say it’s overridden by CT following the return of his memory.

And in Rebirth specifically, he feels more romantically interested in Tifa even before that.

 

[Empyrea]

I don’t understand why people see C&A as having a deeply spiritual bond.

You and me both. Sorta. I understand it in the sense that it seems like that's what the story wants to convey. Whether or not it came across seems to differ from one person to another. To you and me, it didn't.

For me, personally, while I see there were times Cloud does comfort Aerith, Aerith never quite had the chance to reciprocate. Hell, in OG, she tells him to leave everything to her and take care of himself...without ever knowing exactly what was wrong with him, just that something is. Honestly, even the dream date seems like it's more for Aerith than for both of them.

Also, while you can read that Cloud is being vulnerable around Aerith, I read it as more him just being socially awkward in general. He's 16 mentally and trying to be cool but failing. That's it. Vulnerability and awkwardness are two different things, after all. But that might just be me.

 

[Fakewings_]

You see Cloud's closeness with Aerith or vulnerability in the little things like hand open to take in the dream date, wanting photos together or of Aerith, his enthusiasm when he picks a gift then gets annoyed when it wasn't what he wanted, like a kid, how easily he hugs her back in the church, and the embraces/caresses in the Forgotten Capital. He remembers important things like the White Materia being her mom's and what it meant to her.

I saw a collage thing once that shows they hold hands over a dozen times across Remake/Rebirth, amongst other things, I feel like Aerith and Cloud have a good "skinship" across the games (not saying CT doesn't)

Most of the details you listed, 3/4 of them are lack of proactiveness from C. And in a relationship when the woman always takes the lead and is the one being proactive, it truly is a disadvantage.
About skinship, I believe that just within the Remake alone, C & T have had unnecessary physical contact many times, and it carries a much greater sense of intimacy. To compare: the scene where C hugs T while jumping off the train is shown in a close-up and detailed shot, while the scene where C hugs A after falling at the ToA is only briefly shown from C’s blurred perspective.
The bone between C & A is truly admirable. Isn’t it true that our lives become more vibrant when we have someone with positive energy by our side? But for me, it hasn’t reached the level of depth that many people praise it has

 

[Shadowstorm]

Well Cloud is often vulnerable around Aerith (and Tifa) often while having an episode, this might be out of his control, but doesn't change the fact that they are there for him, often holding his hand, with gentle words, or watching over him while he rests.

In terms of heart to hearts I think Cloud wanted to over Zack but couldn't have a serious discussion there for obvious reasons. Some things they just couldn't push too far on at that stage of the game.

You see Cloud's closeness with Aerith or vulnerability in the little things like hand open to take in the dream date, wanting photos together or of Aerith, his enthusiasm when he picks a gift then gets annoyed when it wasn't what he wanted, like a kid, how easily he hugs her back in the church, and the embraces/caresses in the Forgotten Capital. He remembers important things like the White Materia being her mom's and what it meant to her.

I saw a collage thing once that shows they hold hands over a dozen times across Remake/Rebirth, amongst other things, I feel like Aerith and Cloud have a good "skinship" across the games (not saying CT doesn't)

While I do like Clerith's bond a lot (hell, after you I'm probably the person here most invested in them) I do have to argue the other side a bit here too. Cloud's episodes are completely involuntary and happen regardless of who is around him, we just see it with the girls more because they're the other two leads, it's not a show of trust from Cloud in either case, and there's never a scene where he actually talks to Aerith about them(again because she doesn't push, which I really do think is something he appreciates about her)

The beach scene and the water tower scenes are lovely, but they do drive home the point that it's mostly Aerith confiding in Cloud rather than the other way around. It's especially obvious in Nibelheim, like they're at the source of Cloud's greatest trauma, but the conversation is about how jealous and lonely Aerith is? I'm not knocking her I find this aspect of her character fascinating and consider it one of the main things keeping her from being a cliche, but I do think it's very telling about her as a character and about their relationship. Cloud clearly doesn't mind though and was happy to listen to her because he does care about her.

With things like keeping a tally of how many times they hold hands I think you have to look closer at the context for each of them. Like how many of those handholds were actually the two of them reaching out and how many times was it just Aerith tugging Cloud along? The latter kind is great if you're already invested but does very little to convince people that don't have an existing interest in the ship.

Things like taking pictures during that side quest are really cute though, and do make clear he enjoys being around her. I just think people do have a point when they say there is a level of closeness lacking from what is shown in their relationship, even if I do buy them having some kind of a special bond personally

Airship. I mention this one because the rewards are more powerful the sooner you get them and if you do the sidequest when it first becomes available, you get an extra reward (The cave, irritatingly, requires three total trips to complete. One for the sidequest, one to go on a different path that's mutually exclusive with getting the sidequest, and one to come back and progress the sidequest and get the partial quest rewards)

Backtrack thy name is Final Fantasy! But thanks, I'll be sure to do that as soon as I get my ride back.

 

[Xannis]

If you don't understand then you're not going to, even JP streamers who ship CT say lover tie when CA are standing back to back with fingers intertwined at the end of the game.

I completely understand viewing a lot of CA interactions/scenes as potentially romantic including that one. I can also see the "they're just close friends" argument. What I can't wrap my head around is that feeling persisting past the point in the story where:

• You learn 1/2 of the potential couple was mind fucked for 100% of his time with the other half.
• 1/2 of the potential couple died.
• After the death of the aforementioned 1/2 the other half doesn't seem as distraught over it as a "soul mate" would.
• After the mind fuckery in bullet 1 was fixed the now un-fucked half tells a different woman that he really always just loved her.

When the conversation starts to go down this path I just feel like I'm talking about Harry Potter or Hunger Games. Are there points where you can say that Harry/Hermoine and Katniss/Gale have romantic themed scenes together? Of course. Does it ultimately impact who they end up with? Nope.

 

[Ryeleigh]

You and me both. Sorta. I understand it in the sense that it seems like that's what the story wants to convey. Whether or not it came across seems to differ from one person to another. To you and me, it didn't.

For me, personally, while I see there were times Cloud does comfort Aerith, Aerith never quite had the chance to reciprocate. Hell, in OG, she tells him to leave everything to her and take care of himself...without ever knowing exactly what was wrong with him, just that something is. Honestly, even the dream date seems like it's more for Aerith than for both of them.

Also, while you can read that Cloud is being vulnerable around Aerith, I read it as more him just being socially awkward in general. He's 16 mentally and trying to be cool but failing. That's it. Vulnerability and awkwardness are two different things, after all. But that might just be me.

I think I'm also kinda reluctant to say that Cloud is vulnerable around Aerith? I mean, isn't Tifa's raison d'être that she's the only one Cloud opens his heart to and wasn't it even a dev quote?

Or maybe it's more like, yes, Cloud is often vulnerable around all the party members because he's a vulnerable character in a difficult, precarious situation, but the only one he's opened up to is Tifa? I actually had a thought about this while watching Rebirth but I totally forgot what it was, lmao.

 

[GamerSkull]

I think I'm also kinda reluctant to say that Cloud is vulnerable around Aerith? I mean, isn't Tifa's raison d'être that she's the only one Cloud opens his heart to and wasn't it even a dev quote?

Or maybe it's more like, yes, Cloud is often vulnerable around all the party members because he's a vulnerable character in a difficult, precarious situation, but the only one he's opened up to is Tifa? I actually had a thought about this while watching Rebirth but I totally forgot what it was, lmao.

Yeah, he’s also only opened up about the “degradation” to Tifa. Aerith has essentially deduced that issue on her own but Cloud has never confided about it to her.

 

[Reaper3Delta]

Yeah, he’s also only opened up about the “degradation” to Tifa. Aerith has essentially deduced that issue on her own but Cloud has never confided about it to her.

Unless Aerith heard it from Tifa from their "behind the scenes" talks .

 

[Eerie]

All Cloud's intimates conversation, about his identity trouble, but also about how he felt, were with Tifa. Most happened in bedrooms for that very reason, it's to push the feeling of "intimate conversation".

Tifa gets to know a side of Cloud others don't, because he only opens up in front of her, in situations where they're only the two of them. And he always say "we'll talk more about it later" because he wants to continue those intimate conversations with her. Only her opinion counts.

 

[GamerSkull]

Unless Aerith heard it from Tifa from their "behind the scenes" talks .

Maybe. But Tifa seems to want to protect as much of Cloud’s image to the rest of the party as possible. This is why she tells him not to speak about Zack’s “death” to Aerith so she can do it instead. And to keep it between the two of them.

She probably sugarcoats what is happening to him because she doesn’t want the others to see him badly.

 

[Shadowstorm]

So, I just started up FF9 since EC enlightened me to the fact that it has pirate vibes, and I feel like I'm looking at Tifa Lockhart's younger sister? Just how many times did they re-use that design? I know they kind of peaked with her but damn.

 

[GamerSkull]

So, I just started up FF9 since EC enlightened me to the fact that it has pirate vibes, and I feel like I'm looking at Tifa Lockhart's younger sister? Just how many times did they re-use that design? I know they kind of peaked with her but damn.

Yeah… Tifa, Rinoa, and Garnet have a lot of physical similarities. I hope you enjoy FFIX, it’s my second favorite after FFVII and FFX (tied for first).