SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Ryushikaze]

After ToTP and the fact that Tifa was helping Claudia in it just before Cloud's arrival- and especially that Claudia learned that Cloud had told only Tifa about his plan to join SOLDIER in the same conversation - I also am sure it was Tifa she was referring to in specific, but trying to be subtle about.

 

[Hellenic]

Don't you mean Final Fanfics

We wouldn't have any of this if people actually stuck to their fanfics instead .

 

[pxl_pushr]

Gonna have to go with Claudia talking about Tifa in a subtle way. Cloud has a habit of shutting down in a conversation, though he does keep listening. The key takeaway from her words is “mature” which Tifa fits in spades even if she had a bratty streak at 15. As others have said, she showed plenty of mature qualities even at that age, qualities Cloud would’ve benefited from.

I also don’t recall any evidence that Claudia holds anything against Tifa for the bridge incident. Wouldn’t really make sense to with the rumor of it being Cloud’s fault ( I doubt she believed it ), and Tifa being the more seriously injured one. Would seem awfully petty of her to hold negative feelings towards a child under those circumstances.

Keep in mind that the first time we see that flashback, Cloud came off of a conversation with Elmyra. That and the atmosphere of Aerith’s home triggered that memory in him, and his first thought was to keep his word and get back home, Sector 7.

The subject of Claudia is of particular interest to me in ReTrilogy, because I suspect a very key reveal about her in the LSS. One that will add to Cloud’s “why”s and even help clarify the ending to Rebirth.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Gonna have to go with Claudia talking about Tifa in a subtle way. Cloud has a habit of shutting down in a conversation, though he does keep listening. The key takeaway from her words is “mature” which Tifa fits in spades even if she had a bratty streak at 15. As others have said, she showed plenty of mature qualities even at that age, qualities Cloud would’ve benefited from.

I also don’t recall any evidence that Claudia holds anything against Tifa for the bridge incident. Wouldn’t really make sense to with the rumor of it being Cloud’s fault ( I doubt she believed it ), and Tifa being the more seriously injured one. Would seem awfully petty of her to hold negative feelings towards a child under those circumstances.

Keep in mind that the first time we see that flashback, Cloud came off of a conversation with Elmyra. That and the atmosphere of Aerith’s home triggered that memory in him, and his first thought was to keep his word and get back home, Sector 7.

The subject of Claudia is of particular interest to me in ReTrilogy, because I suspect a very key reveal about her in the LSS. One that will add to Cloud’s “why”s and even help clarify the ending to Rebirth.

You suspect that Sephiroth killed her as she shielded Cloud?

 

[pxl_pushr]

You suspect that Sephiroth killed her as she shielded Cloud?

Yup. I suspect Cloud was going to be one of the first victims that night, and he froze up for obvious reasons. Claudia, however, didn’t hesitate and shielded him. That’s why Cloud won’t let himself think on her for too long.

Rebirth itself convinced me of the way she died, and Remake convinced me of Cloud’s role in it. Cloud stabbing Sephiroth in the Temple of the Ancients felt very deliberate to me, especially when Cloud usually goes for a swing vs a stab.

Fastforward to end of Rebirth, and what’s Cloud’s strong hope/dream? To be strong to deflect Sephiroth’s blade… because the scenario is a reenactment of Sephiroth killing Cloud’s mother. In reality, what happened? Cloud stopped himself from killing her, but was frozen/too lost in his own mind to even try to protect Aerith.

 

[Nancy]

We wouldn't have any of this if people actually stuck to their fanfics instead .

Couldn't have agree more but what can we do

 

[null]

Yup. I suspect Cloud was going to be one of the first victims that night, and he froze up for obvious reasons. Claudia, however, didn’t hesitate and shielded him. That’s why Cloud won’t let himself think on her for too long.

Rebirth itself convinced me of the way she died, and Remake convinced me of Cloud’s role in it. Cloud stabbing Sephiroth in the Temple of the Ancients felt very deliberate to me, especially when Cloud usually goes for a swing vs a stab.

Fastforward to end of Rebirth, and what’s Cloud’s strong hope/dream? To be strong to deflect Sephiroth’s blade… because the scenario is a reenactment of Sephiroth killing Cloud’s mother. In reality, what happened? Cloud stopped himself from killing her, but was frozen/too lost in his own mind to even try to protect Aerith.

I really like that idea. A genuinely creative and surprising twist, with ReTrilogy continuing to expand on Cloud coping through dissociation, and retconning Claudia dying offscreen and never being mentioned again.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Since I haven't ToTP yet I can't really contribute to that side of the conversation, but I'd like to add to the Tifa conversation that Tifa acting bratty with her (overprotective) dad is different from Tifa acting bratty in general.

Also, small bratty Tifa was so cute.

 

[Eerie]

Since I haven't ToTP yet I can't really contribute to that side of the conversation, but I'd like to add to the Tifa conversation that Tifa acting bratty with her (overprotective) dad is different from Tifa acting bratty in general.

Also, small bratty Tifa was so cute.

You can find Peko's translation here but I of course invite you to buy at least the EN version if it doesn't exist in your language (pretty sure you can find it in Amazon?).

 

[pxl_pushr]

Since I haven't ToTP yet I can't really contribute to that side of the conversation, but I'd like to add to the Tifa conversation that Tifa acting bratty with her (overprotective) dad is different from Tifa acting bratty in general.

Also, small bratty Tifa was so cute.

Tbf, she gets a little huffy when she can’t go in the reactor but she is only 15 years old. 5 years of life experience and an (un)healthy scoop of trauma can change a person.

Worth noting that this is probably where he reckless streak comes from, but that’s a bit different.

 

[null]

I clean forgot about Claudia in OG worrying that Cloud can't cook. Then ToTP has Tifa cooking directly next to her. Fair enough. "We got a word for that kind of odd in English. It's called: suh-spicious."

 

[Xannis]

Question 1 - If Remake part 3 does the Lifestream and Highwind scenes justice, what kind of backlash will there be from people not into the CT pairing? We've already seen the backlash in response to the CT kiss. If SE does the bare minimum of following the OG story, it seems like a large part of the fandom will just give up or leave. I don't think there will be any more room to cope. I'm curious what the devs have thought about this, how they're preparing for it, or if it's even necessary. The writers have already received death threats for the most minor takes. I wonder how they're handling this, if there's going to be 3/4 more years of this until part 3 is released. I do not envy Nojima, Nomura, and co.

I pretty much see the following happening.

For starters I think I'll be spending the rest of my on-line life explaining what is, and what is NOT a retcon. The bulk of people will scream retcon vs what it wold really be which is Square saying "This is what we really wanted to do" vs changing continuity. Ironically a retcon would be Square omitting the Highwind Scene or changing the Lifestream to include Aerith which lots of CA seem to want but again, just watch as they'll cry retcon foul if it goes the other way (and won't even be right about usage of the word).

Then there will be the crowd that blames any kind of lack of sales on the fact that they didn't do CA and if they (the devs) had listened to the CA shippers and gone full CA then sales would have been good. To be fair CT has that crowd too.

We'll also be treated to the "I'm done with this franchise!?!*#&$^^%&" posts but those people will be popping up in threads the next day.

 

[Ryeleigh]

You can find Peko's translation here but I of course invite you to buy at least the EN version if it doesn't exist in your language (pretty sure you can find it in Amazon?).

Thank you! I will give it a look.

 

[Skilganon]

You're 100% about Tifa helping out the community. I just wonder why Claudia didn't tell her son to talk to Tifa. Like, she knows her name. No need to be coy here. On second thought, maybe this is why there's static in the flashback? I don't remember what the static meant in the OG.

 

[Eerie]

The flashback was altered by Jenova, even in the OG he couldn't remember it well.

 

[Skilganon]

Yeah, I've seen people mention Jenova affecting memories, but do we know that for real? Claudia seems pretty nice in the flashback, all things considered. It doesn't seem like Jenova's influence is really doing much. It also makes me wonder when Cloud is suppressing memories and when Jenova is changing memories. I don't think it actually matters in the long run. Cloud tends to suppress harmful memories, Jenova is just a macguffin toward that end.

 

[Eerie]

Jenova in this case was altering Cloud's outfit (SOLDIER instead of grunt) and cut all the bits that could lead Cloud to understand what his mother was saying (that he hadn't made it to SOLDIER). The convo maybe included Tifa's name but as in the OG, Cloud asked himself "why didn't you spend time with Tifa", or something similar in Under Junon), it's because he failed to join SOLDIER.

We have seen Jenova altering even more memories in both Remake and Rebirth. Cloud is living in the delusion that he made it to SOLDIER and Zack didn't die protecting him and that he managed to protect Aerith (and most probably because he cannot handle that his own mother died protecting him, which is his first big failure).

 

[pxl_pushr]

Yeah, I've seen people mention Jenova affecting memories, but do we know that for real? Claudia seems pretty nice in the flashback, all things considered. It doesn't seem like Jenova's influence is really doing much. It also makes me wonder when Cloud is suppressing memories and when Jenova is changing memories. I don't think it actually matters in the long run. Cloud tends to suppress harmful memories, Jenova is just a macguffin toward that end.

The Kalm flashback version of the Nibelheim Incident exposes that Cloud’s recollection of that period of time is severely scrambled, especially around his mom to the point that things are clearly out of order.

Static showing up when he discusses his visit home is a red flag that memories are altered or blocked, so it’s best to be cautious with those scenes.

As for why Claudia doesn’t just name drop Tifa, I can think of a few reasons. There’s a difference between guiding someone to an answer vs spoonfeeding them and telling them what to do. Claudia wants Cloud to come to his own conclusions, and part of that is also softly pointing out his flaws.

 

[null]

It is kinda hard to believe Tifa didn’t come up at all, when earlier she was clearly dying to see Cloud (to the point Claudia had to yell at her not to go up the mountain) and blurting out things Claudia didn’t know about her own son. Maybe all that load bearing static will have a payoff later.

 

[Skilganon]

I've always had the interpretation that Cloud's memory problems are the result of him deceiving himself, combined with mako poisoning. I know he was injected with Sephiroth cells, so Jenova/Sephiroth could influence him as we see in game, but if Jenova was deliberately messing with his mind, shouldn't his memories be more... negative?

I imagine Jenova would want Cloud to feel hopeless, rather than confused. This is why I doubt whether Jenova was involved when Cloud created his false personality upon meeting Tifa in Sector 7. Cloud imagines a idealized past for himself, which allows him to live and interact with others for a while. The only motivation needed here is Cloud's own insecurity, Jenova doesn't need to be invoked at all IMO. Jenova would want him to be as ineffectual as possible, to remain catatonic forever. She wouldn't want him to have ANY persona if she had that much control over his mind. (And I know Tifa is involved in reviving him)

If Jenova was really affecting Cloud's memories of his mom, wouldn't she want to change things so that Caudia seems dissapointed? I mean, it's a pretty wholesome interaction all things considered. If Jenova is interferring to take out all references of Tifa, it doesn't seem like that big of a deal.

Again, if Jenova had this much control over Cloud's mind, she'd want him to feel hopeless, not confused.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I've always had the interpretation that Cloud's memory problems are the result of him deceiving himself, combined with mako poisoning. I know he was injected with Sephiroth cells, so Jenova/Sephiroth could influence him as we see in game, but if Jenova was deliberately messing with his mind, shouldn't his memories be more... negative?

I imagine Jenova would want Cloud to feel hopeless, rather than confused. This is why I doubt whether Jenova was involved when Cloud created his false personality upon meeting Tifa in Sector 7. Cloud imagines a idealized past for himself, which allows him to live and interact with others for a while. The only motivation needed here is Cloud's own insecurity, Jenova doesn't need to be invoked at all IMO. Jenova would want him to be as ineffectual as possible, to remain catatonic forever. She wouldn't want him to have ANY persona if she had that much control over his mind. (And I know Tifa is involved in reviving him)

If Jenova was really affecting Cloud's memories of his mom, wouldn't she want to change things so that Caudia seems dissapointed? I mean, it's a pretty wholesome interaction all things considered. If Jenova is interferring to take out all references of Tifa, it doesn't seem like that big of a deal.

Again, if Jenova had this much control over Cloud's mind, she'd want him to feel hopeless, not confused.

Jenova doesn't want much of anything, given it's braindead and just reacts to the will of its hosts and follows the reunion instinct. This explains twofold why your worries aren't terribly founded.

In the case of Cloud's persona and untouched memories, Cloud himself wanted to create a persona that could be a cool SOLDIER for Tifa, and he recreated his mind and his memories using Jenova according to that template.

As for Sephiroth wanting to tear Cloud down, he does, but he wants to do it at the perfect time, to strike him down with a masterful blow after using him as a puppet. To that end he's perfectly willing to allow Cloud to believe a happy-ish lie especially as it allows him more inroads to destroy Cloud at the moment of triumph.

 

[Skilganon]

Given that Sephiroth wants to restore his "fragmented mother", I would say Jenova has some goal in mind. The holograms in the Temple of the Ancients seemed to paint Jenova itself as the big bad, the "calamity from the stars". It's also stated that Jenova can take the form of those closest to you. During Sephiroth's breakdown in the Nibelheim flashback, he's receiving signals from Jenova calling him to the reactor, where he says "Let us reclaim the planet together." So Sephiroth seems to think Jenova has a will of its own anyway. And Jenova itself fights you as a boss, which would be unusual for a braindead creature.

But it is interesting that you say Cloud himself can use the power of Jenova to a certain extent. I've heard that as well. Given that we read in Jenova boss descriptions that it can "create illusions that affect reality", I wouldn't be surprised if that's the explanation in the lore.

I just find it more satisfying if Cloud's delusion comes from himself, and not from an alien parasite.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Given that Sephiroth wants to restore his "fragmented mother", I would say Jenova has some goal in mind. The holograms in the Temple of the Ancients seemed to paint Jenova itself as the big bad, the "calamity from the stars". It's also stated that Jenova can take the form of those closest to you. During Sephiroth's breakdown in the Nibelheim flashback, he's receiving signals from Jenova calling him to the reactor, where he says "Let us reclaim the planet together." So Sephiroth seems to think Jenova has a will of its own anyway. And Jenova itself fights you as a boss, which would be unusual for a braindead creature.

But it is interesting that you say Cloud himself can use the power of Jenova to a certain extent. I've heard that as well. Given that we read in Jenova boss descriptions that it can "create illusions that affect reality", I wouldn't be surprised if that's the explanation in the lore.

I just find it more satisfying if Cloud's delusion comes from himself, and not from an alien parasite.

Sephiroth is the new mind of the Jenova cells. Whatever brain it might have still had in Nibelheim has decidedly been overridden by Sephiroth by the time of the events of the game. Sephiroth's desire for fragments of Jenova is decidedly more utilitarian than emotional. It's why he's willing to throw parts of the primary body at Cloud et all as a diversionary tactic.

And Cloud's delusions largely do come from himself. Just aided with the mimicry powers of Jenova to make it convincing. Like Cloud doesn't have motion sickness during the events of the game because Jenova is changing his body to better support his bluff.

 

[Eerie]

And I mean, all of this is reiterated in various Ultimanias.

Eventually why in the OG he was able to prove that he was himself and not a clone is because he was the only one who had this memory of what happened at Mt Nibel when he was 8-9. Tifa had no recollection so Jenova couldn’t read her mind to make up a memory like she did at the train station when Tifa found Cloud.

This is also why there are various theories about the trilogy’s LS scene since Tifa has already seen that memory, which is key to restore Cloud’s mind in the OG.

 

[Ryushikaze]

And I mean, all of this is reiterated in various Ultimanias.

Eventually why in the OG he was able to prove that he was himself and not a clone is because he was the only one who had this memory of what happened at Mt Nibel when he was 8-9. Tifa had no recollection so Jenova couldn’t read her mind to make up a memory like she did at the train station when Tifa found Cloud.

This is also why there are various theories about the trilogy’s LS scene since Tifa has already seen that memory, which is key to restore Cloud’s mind in the OG.

The Mt. Nibel recollection was just one part of things. The water tower is the core moment that finally cracks things wide open, and they specifically made changes to retrilogy so Cloud remembers that, remembers his promise long before Tifa brings it up.
There might be some changes to the LS sequence, new things added like Stargazer Heights, but the heart of the matter is definitely staying the same.