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Mr. Thou
- AKA
- null
I really like that idea. A genuinely creative and surprising twist, with ReTrilogy continuing to expand on Cloud coping through dissociation, and retconning Claudia dying offscreen and never being mentioned again.
SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
- Start date
I really like that idea. A genuinely creative and surprising twist, with ReTrilogy continuing to expand on Cloud coping through dissociation, and retconning Claudia dying offscreen and never being mentioned again.
Ryeleigh
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Rye
Since I haven't ToTP yet I can't really contribute to that side of the conversation, but I'd like to add to the Tifa conversation that Tifa acting bratty with her (overprotective) dad is different from Tifa acting bratty in general.
Also, small bratty Tifa was so cute.
Also, small bratty Tifa was so cute.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
You can find Peko's translation here but I of course invite you to buy at least the EN version if it doesn't exist in your language (pretty sure you can find it in Amazon?).
Tbf, she gets a little huffy when she can’t go in the reactor but she is only 15 years old. 5 years of life experience and an (un)healthy scoop of trauma can change a person.
Worth noting that this is probably where he reckless streak comes from, but that’s a bit different.
Fair enough. "We got a word for that kind of odd in English. It's called: suh-spicious."I pretty much see the following happening.
For starters I think I'll be spending the rest of my on-line life explaining what is, and what is NOT a retcon. The bulk of people will scream retcon vs what it wold really be which is Square saying "This is what we really wanted to do" vs changing continuity. Ironically a retcon would be Square omitting the Highwind Scene or changing the Lifestream to include Aerith which lots of CA seem to want but again, just watch as they'll cry retcon foul if it goes the other way (and won't even be right about usage of the word).
Then there will be the crowd that blames any kind of lack of sales on the fact that they didn't do CA and if they (the devs) had listened to the CA shippers and gone full CA then sales would have been good. To be fair CT has that crowd too.
We'll also be treated to the "I'm done with this franchise!?!*#&$^^%&" posts but those people will be popping up in threads the next day.
Ryeleigh
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Rye
Thank you! I will give it a look.
You're 100% about Tifa helping out the community. I just wonder why Claudia didn't tell her son to talk to Tifa. Like, she knows her name. No need to be coy here. On second thought, maybe this is why there's static in the flashback? I don't remember what the static meant in the OG.
Yeah, I've seen people mention Jenova affecting memories, but do we know that for real? Claudia seems pretty nice in the flashback, all things considered. It doesn't seem like Jenova's influence is really doing much. It also makes me wonder when Cloud is suppressing memories and when Jenova is changing memories. I don't think it actually matters in the long run. Cloud tends to suppress harmful memories, Jenova is just a macguffin toward that end.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
Jenova in this case was altering Cloud's outfit (SOLDIER instead of grunt) and cut all the bits that could lead Cloud to understand what his mother was saying (that he hadn't made it to SOLDIER). The convo maybe included Tifa's name but as in the OG, Cloud asked himself "why didn't you spend time with Tifa", or something similar in Under Junon), it's because he failed to join SOLDIER.
We have seen Jenova altering even more memories in both Remake and Rebirth. Cloud is living in the delusion that he made it to SOLDIER and Zack didn't die protecting him and that he managed to protect Aerith (and most probably because he cannot handle that his own mother died protecting him, which is his first big failure).
We have seen Jenova altering even more memories in both Remake and Rebirth. Cloud is living in the delusion that he made it to SOLDIER and Zack didn't die protecting him and that he managed to protect Aerith (and most probably because he cannot handle that his own mother died protecting him, which is his first big failure).
The Kalm flashback version of the Nibelheim Incident exposes that Cloud’s recollection of that period of time is severely scrambled, especially around his mom to the point that things are clearly out of order.
Static showing up when he discusses his visit home is a red flag that memories are altered or blocked, so it’s best to be cautious with those scenes.
As for why Claudia doesn’t just name drop Tifa, I can think of a few reasons. There’s a difference between guiding someone to an answer vs spoonfeeding them and telling them what to do. Claudia wants Cloud to come to his own conclusions, and part of that is also softly pointing out his flaws.
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Mr. Thou
- AKA
- null
It is kinda hard to believe Tifa didn’t come up at all, when earlier she was clearly dying to see Cloud (to the point Claudia had to yell at her not to go up the mountain) and blurting out things Claudia didn’t know about her own son. Maybe all that load bearing static will have a payoff later.
I've always had the interpretation that Cloud's memory problems are the result of him deceiving himself, combined with mako poisoning. I know he was injected with Sephiroth cells, so Jenova/Sephiroth could influence him as we see in game, but if Jenova was deliberately messing with his mind, shouldn't his memories be more... negative?
I imagine Jenova would want Cloud to feel hopeless, rather than confused. This is why I doubt whether Jenova was involved when Cloud created his false personality upon meeting Tifa in Sector 7. Cloud imagines a idealized past for himself, which allows him to live and interact with others for a while. The only motivation needed here is Cloud's own insecurity, Jenova doesn't need to be invoked at all IMO. Jenova would want him to be as ineffectual as possible, to remain catatonic forever. She wouldn't want him to have ANY persona if she had that much control over his mind. (And I know Tifa is involved in reviving him)
If Jenova was really affecting Cloud's memories of his mom, wouldn't she want to change things so that Caudia seems dissapointed? I mean, it's a pretty wholesome interaction all things considered. If Jenova is interferring to take out all references of Tifa, it doesn't seem like that big of a deal.
Again, if Jenova had this much control over Cloud's mind, she'd want him to feel hopeless, not confused.
I imagine Jenova would want Cloud to feel hopeless, rather than confused. This is why I doubt whether Jenova was involved when Cloud created his false personality upon meeting Tifa in Sector 7. Cloud imagines a idealized past for himself, which allows him to live and interact with others for a while. The only motivation needed here is Cloud's own insecurity, Jenova doesn't need to be invoked at all IMO. Jenova would want him to be as ineffectual as possible, to remain catatonic forever. She wouldn't want him to have ANY persona if she had that much control over his mind. (And I know Tifa is involved in reviving him)
If Jenova was really affecting Cloud's memories of his mom, wouldn't she want to change things so that Caudia seems dissapointed? I mean, it's a pretty wholesome interaction all things considered. If Jenova is interferring to take out all references of Tifa, it doesn't seem like that big of a deal.
Again, if Jenova had this much control over Cloud's mind, she'd want him to feel hopeless, not confused.
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
Jenova doesn't want much of anything, given it's braindead and just reacts to the will of its hosts and follows the reunion instinct. This explains twofold why your worries aren't terribly founded.
In the case of Cloud's persona and untouched memories, Cloud himself wanted to create a persona that could be a cool SOLDIER for Tifa, and he recreated his mind and his memories using Jenova according to that template.
As for Sephiroth wanting to tear Cloud down, he does, but he wants to do it at the perfect time, to strike him down with a masterful blow after using him as a puppet. To that end he's perfectly willing to allow Cloud to believe a happy-ish lie especially as it allows him more inroads to destroy Cloud at the moment of triumph.
Given that Sephiroth wants to restore his "fragmented mother", I would say Jenova has some goal in mind. The holograms in the Temple of the Ancients seemed to paint Jenova itself as the big bad, the "calamity from the stars". It's also stated that Jenova can take the form of those closest to you. During Sephiroth's breakdown in the Nibelheim flashback, he's receiving signals from Jenova calling him to the reactor, where he says "Let us reclaim the planet together." So Sephiroth seems to think Jenova has a will of its own anyway. And Jenova itself fights you as a boss, which would be unusual for a braindead creature.
But it is interesting that you say Cloud himself can use the power of Jenova to a certain extent. I've heard that as well. Given that we read in Jenova boss descriptions that it can "create illusions that affect reality", I wouldn't be surprised if that's the explanation in the lore.
I just find it more satisfying if Cloud's delusion comes from himself, and not from an alien parasite.
But it is interesting that you say Cloud himself can use the power of Jenova to a certain extent. I've heard that as well. Given that we read in Jenova boss descriptions that it can "create illusions that affect reality", I wouldn't be surprised if that's the explanation in the lore.
I just find it more satisfying if Cloud's delusion comes from himself, and not from an alien parasite.
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
Sephiroth is the new mind of the Jenova cells. Whatever brain it might have still had in Nibelheim has decidedly been overridden by Sephiroth by the time of the events of the game. Sephiroth's desire for fragments of Jenova is decidedly more utilitarian than emotional. It's why he's willing to throw parts of the primary body at Cloud et all as a diversionary tactic.
And Cloud's delusions largely do come from himself. Just aided with the mimicry powers of Jenova to make it convincing. Like Cloud doesn't have motion sickness during the events of the game because Jenova is changing his body to better support his bluff.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
And I mean, all of this is reiterated in various Ultimanias.
Eventually why in the OG he was able to prove that he was himself and not a clone is because he was the only one who had this memory of what happened at Mt Nibel when he was 8-9. Tifa had no recollection so Jenova couldn’t read her mind to make up a memory like she did at the train station when Tifa found Cloud.
This is also why there are various theories about the trilogy’s LS scene since Tifa has already seen that memory, which is key to restore Cloud’s mind in the OG.
Eventually why in the OG he was able to prove that he was himself and not a clone is because he was the only one who had this memory of what happened at Mt Nibel when he was 8-9. Tifa had no recollection so Jenova couldn’t read her mind to make up a memory like she did at the train station when Tifa found Cloud.
This is also why there are various theories about the trilogy’s LS scene since Tifa has already seen that memory, which is key to restore Cloud’s mind in the OG.
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
The Mt. Nibel recollection was just one part of things. The water tower is the core moment that finally cracks things wide open, and they specifically made changes to retrilogy so Cloud remembers that, remembers his promise long before Tifa brings it up.
There might be some changes to the LS sequence, new things added like Stargazer Heights, but the heart of the matter is definitely staying the same.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
The Mt Nibel fall wasn't just one part of the things, it was THE memory that proved Cloud was real and not a clone:
(Ultimania Omega). There's only one memory Tifa doesn't remember, and it's been a point in ToTP and it's the Mt Nibel fall. It is because Jenova is unable to know about this event through Tifa that it proves that Cloud is Cloud, that only his one true self can know about.
The Promise scene is very different, because it doesn't prove that Cloud is Cloud; however it is key to his true core, it's become his goal. I firmly believe that all the feelings that are attached to it (why did you want to join SOLDIER? > for Tifa to notice him) are going to be covered in the next LS scene (LSS) too.
However, I also agree with this fully. I have posted just yesterday a thread about my observations about the LSS as well as my hopes, so I shall repost it here too, so people can see what I think when I talk about it.
When I think about the LSS, there are several things that I contemplate:
- a la Doctor Who, this is a fixed scene in time and space (or rather in the Lifestream itself as Tifa could see). It has this kind of importance;
- the first part is all about proving that Cloud is the real one, so his memories about the Nibelheim incident can be validated;
- however, the black whispers were attacking it at the end of the game, what does that mean? Now it is an ending scene and I can't help but remember people going on for 3 years about Zack in the church by the end of REMAKE's DLC, but in the end it didn't mean much. So it could very well be a metaphor for what's happening in game with Cloud forgetting about his precious memories;
- Tifa has already seen the key scene that's supposed to prove Cloud is Cloud.
Now, aside the second point that comes from the OG, all the others are told in REBIRTH, these are facts.
Now the Lifestream scene in REBIRTH and the one in p3 will be different; with the way it was presented, the OG scene reminds me more of Aerith's dream world than the scene from REBIRTH, even more so I would say that it is very similar to Tifa's trial (and since I suspect the trials to take place in such worlds as Aerith's dream world... it does connect).
Basically, and this is also true to the OG scene, the LSS represents Cloud's true hopes and feelings, this is his little dream world. But we saw in the Lifestream's scene from REBIRTH that Stargazer and 7th Heaven are also there; which leads me to believe that, given how we saw Cloud THIRST for Tifa in REMAKE, that Cloud might have to spell out those hopes (I want to impress Tifa, I must become an incredible man for her, which both came out from OG and his little novella from pre-REBIRTH) as well as his feelings. To include possibly 7th Heaven and Stargazer means to me that they intent to say "yes this is about the past, but also the present". I can't help but remember Nojima's coy smile when he said "there's this cute little scene where Tifa shows him his place, it looks like a japanese building, look out for it!" - if this comes back in the LSS, then DAMN he is playing such a long game! To expplain more, from feelings and hopes we might get back erased memories if they truly are erased, it is a possibility.
Only after they validate that he is the true Cloud do they come back to the retelling of the Nibelheim incident. Will the devs keep it as it is in the OG, with the final surprise? I think yeah, but what they could do is also add flashbacks once we discover Cloud taking off his helmet: he and his mum, the dinner with Zack, Tifa realising it was always him trying to protect her under his grunt helmet which would lead to Cloud finding himself back.
In terms of flashbacks, I really do hope they'll add Claudia's death there and that we'll discover how it was her death that traumatised him and made him deny his most cherished friends' deaths (aka Zack and Aerith). Reading that post here earlier really made me think about it and yeah, I believe we need to see it.
So about the LS sequence in part 3, do you think Cloud and Tifa will each have their own whale to ride around in? Or will they be in the same whale, locked together in an embrace?
Personally, I want them to follow the OG and not have the weapon whales, but the devs have kinda set a precedent, so...
It also makes you wonder where the Weapon weapons in part 3 are going to come from, Ruby, Sapphire, Diamond, etc.
Personally, I want them to follow the OG and not have the weapon whales, but the devs have kinda set a precedent, so...
It also makes you wonder where the Weapon weapons in part 3 are going to come from, Ruby, Sapphire, Diamond, etc.
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
I say it's just a part because it on its own isn't enough to fully restore Cloud. It proves he's real, absolutely, but it isn't the part that helps him coalesce, even in OG. I think we're going to see the water tower promise be even more crucial to events this time around, given the narrative was changed so Cloud remembered it, entirely unprompted in Remake.
I am not sure how important validating Cloud's memories of the incident is, aside from confirming he was there and did fulfill his promise to Tifa, in an in universe sense, at least.
I definitely do want more of the full events of Nibelheim told after we get Cloud restored. His time with Claudia, his protecting Tifa as the grunt, etc. not just the final showdown in the reactor basement.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
It is very possible that the Weapons will allow them to survive in the Lifestream, however as I said, the place where they will meet will probably one of those mini-worlds inside the LS, this one created by Cloud's true self (just like Aerith's dream world was hers, as well as other places though but she is a Cetra after all). Those are talked about in Cosmo Canyon by NPC talking there.
That is very true, which is also why you'll notice that I only said that after Tifa realises he's been there all this time it will allow him to become one again xD
I do wonder if him remembering the Promise by himself will haver any impact: after all in his version there was no shooting star, but we know it must've been there. It's also very telling that SE chose to show it once again in Rebirth in another form, as well as in SE with the wallpaper. We know SE loves this scene but it's been pushed oddly in the forefront me think. So I wonder if the lack of shooting star will start something.
It is important to prove that the memories of the Nibelheim incident are true and not made up by Jenova, and this one explains why and how Cloud knows so damn much. It's important for Tifa, who needs to understand, and it's important because it is their love story too. I have said it enough, but I do expect a confession (from both!) and a kiss there, and it can only happen once Cloud is himself.
When I saw the whole Kalm flashback, I immediately knew that I wanted to see the whole thing with the real story going on, because they put so many clues and details there!
It's pretty unclear in the Remake series how much Cloud remembers. He seems to remember more than the OG, but we don't know exactly. We know he's blocking out memories of the Nibelheim incident, so my guess is the LSS will hinge on him remembering how he was in Nibelheim and what went down between him and Sephiroth. That's also how Tifa will learn the full picture.
I'd like a scene in the Lifestream to show Cloud enlisting in the army and being rejected from the SOLDIER program. I want them to mention something like, "You have high mako-sensitivity son, if someone like you gets that treatment, you'd lose your sense of self". And then show him meeting Zack and them hanging out. I think it would lead well into the true events of the Nibelheim incident.
I'd like a scene in the Lifestream to show Cloud enlisting in the army and being rejected from the SOLDIER program. I want them to mention something like, "You have high mako-sensitivity son, if someone like you gets that treatment, you'd lose your sense of self". And then show him meeting Zack and them hanging out. I think it would lead well into the true events of the Nibelheim incident.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
??? I mean the LS scene is true Cloud with all his memories anyway, this is beyond the point?
I don't know if we're going to see this there, because the LS scene is about Cloud and Tifa. It is a love confession, where memories are also validated, explaining the whole plot. Maybe they can do something like this in the lab under the Shinra mansion though?
I know everyone wants to add tons of things in the Lifestream scene, but even Zack's death wasn't there. The Lifestream scene exists, narratively, for two things:
- it's a love confession between the characters
- it's here to explain the Nibelheim incident and what really happpened, which seals true!Cloud's come back
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