So you're saying that it's unlikely Cloud was purged of Jenova cells afterall?
No, I was responding to your belief that the cells were bonded to Cloud at a genetic level. I'm saying if that were the case, one would expect something different than what one sees in the other infected.
NB said:
Except not, because we're outright told how materia works.
Okay, then something along the same lines: AVALANCHE aren't really as acrobatic as they seem in AC/C. That's just a visual effect to show off that they're badass.
That would obviously not be a legitimate argument because they're actually shown doing those things, and that's what I'm saying about the disappearance of the shit on the geostigma victims. Physical material is shown being destroyed.
NB said:
It's a simple hypothetical syllogism. If the black vapor indicates Jenova cells being destroyed, then only things with Jenova cells will undergo it. Remnants don't have Jenova cells. Remnants do it, too. Argument invalid.
That's not the argument at work here. The claim being made is that organic/physical material is destroyed by Aerith's rain, and the argument for it is that we see physical material dissipate on Cloud, Moogle Girl, other kids and Rufus when the rain hits them.
From that simple observation, we have proof already that the rain does more than act on a telepathic level.
Syllogisms, by the way, can be used fallaciously. Deductive reasoning is not the only means to meaning, and its sole use is warned against by any academic institution worth its charter.
Deductive reasoning would tell you that if one man can dig a two-foot hole in 60 seconds, then 60 men could dig that hole in 1 second. That's not going to happen, though.
This is why we use inductive reasoning as well. Combining both approaches gives us conclusions like "Cloud's JENOVA cells were probably destroyed" on the basis that 1) his geostigma was gone at a time that Seph's will was at its peak, 2) the people who got rained on by the cure were taken indiscriminately unlike in other places, 3) the rain is shown unquestionably to destroy some physical material, and 4) as long as both Seph's will and the JENOVA cells were in play within someone before the end of AC/C, they should have geostigma.
Were it not for the presence of the second and third elements of the data, one could argue more easily that it's as likely the loss of Seph's will within the JENOVA cells as it is the loss of the cells themselves which freed Cloud. As it stands, the conclusion that the cells themselves are gone is more strongly indicated.
Obviously inductive reasoning is open to fallacies as well, but that's why one uses both deductive and inductive reasoning. With both, you're less likely to miss something.
The vapor, by the way, is green, and the argument was never that "this vapor only appears where there's JENOVA cells." The argument was always "physical material can be destroyed by the rain because we see physical material vaporized when the rain touches people."
NB said:
Yeah. So, clearly, you don't have to get rid of Jenova cells to get rid of Geostigma.
You
do have to get rid of either Seph's will or the cells, though. That's what I've been saying all along.
NB said:
On a tangent, "Your Geostigma is gone," means "Your Geostigma is gone." If I tell you, "Your flu is gone," I don't mean you'll never have a flu again in your life &, in fact, are immune to all microbial illnesses. I mean you don't have the flu anymore!
That's not a valid comparison at all. Seph was still projecting his will after Cloud was cured -- and more strongly than ever given how he called up the Negative Lifestream, which instantly put Denzel to grabbing his forehead and groaning in pain. Half of the cause of the illness was still there, and it was particularly fierce at that particular time.
What you're suggesting by the rain not removing Cloud's cells at a time that Seph's will is still around is not "You're cured of the flu," but "You took some medicine and won't feel the symptoms for a little while." Seph, however, says that the illness was gone.
EverybodysGrudge said:
As for the arguments that the spirit-energy based SHM wouldn't die from physical injury, but would be killed by Great Gospel, I ask you this. Why would the Remnants defend themselves from attacks if attacks can't hurt them? Why does Kadaj collapse after his body, morphed into Sephy, gets hit with a powerful attack? If they can't be harmed by physical attacks, why not just let Cloud land a good blow, and then ruin his shit while he thinks he won, rather than go through the trouble of having an actual battle?
Same argument applies to unsent. You can beat them up and temporarilty dissipate them without killing them.
EverybodysGrudge said:
Also, how would magic that has only ever been seen to heal kill anything? Especially if the other two Remnants still entirely lack Jenova Cells, why would the healing limit dissolve them?
Well, to begin with, that's assuming that it's identical to Aerith's original Great Gospel, and, second, that's overlooking that many things which heal one entity harm another.
For instance, if you take away an infection, you're killing either a virus or bacterium.
I was just looking at the script of the movie included with the North American Limited Edition release, by the way, and it seems to attribute the fizzling to the rain: "But Yazoo and Loz are badly injured, and in this rain, they seem ready to disappear at any instant."
EverybodsyGrudge said:
On another note, a thought occurred to me as I typed this: in DoC, Grimoire Valentine is shown dispersing in a very similar manner (that is, looking like pyre-flies and floating off) upon his death. How do we reconcile that with the very similar deaths of the Remnants? There was no rain, no Jenova cells, and Grimoire is presumably a real/normal person: nothing in the equation is the same. Is it just a side effect of being killed by Chaos/Stagnant Lifestream, or does it relate in some way I'm not seeing?
I'd assume it had something to do with being killed by stagnant Lifestream since people generally don't do that when they die in FFVII. Maybe the SL was eating away at his actual body.
EG said:
Has anyone aside from Grimoire and the Remnants been shown to die in that fashion though?
Hollander, Lazard and another Angeal copy (monster) in Crisis Core. As well, at least one Genesis copy had Lifestream pool off it, but it never was shown to entirely dissipate (though it probably did).
Obviously, two of these were Angeal copies and two were Genesis copies, so they had all been infused with mako -- and in the case of the first two, were degrading even while alive. The mako might explain the pyrefly dispersement at death, and the more unstable physical composition of the Genesis copies may explain why Hollander and the other Genesis copy began dispersing instantly, while the Angeal copies took several minutes.
It's not so hard. I read your post, I saw you say there would be no free-floating J-cells left in a person's body after infusion and so on. I do not, however, see what you are backing that up with. We are frequently reminded that there are in fact Jenova cells in the bodies of those who are infused with them. This is why Sephiroth/Jenova killed the "clones" when they show up in the Whirlwind Maze, to get the cells back for the Reunion. If those cells are inextricably intertwined with the cells of the host, then how does that work exactly? Do the cells separate and become free-floating again in order to rejoin Jenova? Or, more likely, were they still separate in the first place?