I just had an interesting thought. Now I know we shouldn't think about logistics too much. BUT it makes no sense that everyone during the HighWind scene was able to get to wherever they went and then back by the next day without the HW.
It just makes no damn sense.
So what would be the significance of SE ignoring all the rules of physics and logic? Did they really go through all the trouble of inventing an excuse to get Cloud and Tifa alone together under the HW in nearly impossible circumstances just so we can have a meaningless scene where they confirm friendship?
They had to be alone for that? With the HW floating in the background?
Well, that could be a good point, but more likely is yet another example of the geographical oddity that is Anywhere, Gaia. Look at how quickly the Reunion Files said Cloud traveled from Edge to the City of the Ancients, after all (he and Tifa were said to have woken up at 5:30 p.m. and he's supposed to have gotten there at 9:30 p.m. -- and the book still said "he sure took his time"!).
In any case,
your follow-up post is solid, and I completely agree.
>highwind sex
>loving two people makes one a jackass
>making definitive statements based on a hypothetical plot change
>implying aeris living wouldn't drastically change the plot and there would even be a lifestream scene
Loving two people doesn't necessarily make one a jackass, no, nor would what went on between he and Tifa under the Highwind even if he did, but the comments he made to her on the Highwind at the time Meteor was stopped in Case of Tifa would point to moving on in a callously quick fashion if there had been an equal interest in pursuing the deceased party.
I agree with you and FHS about the silliness of making definitive statements concerning hypothetical plot changes, though. There's few statements that can be made so assuredly.
In order for Aerith to have lived, Sephiroth would have needed to be put down right then at the City of the Ancients, and -- given that his main body was far away, and he still had other parts of JENOVA available -- that wasn't possible.
Once Seph decided that Aerith was going to die, she was going to die. She only lived as long as she did because he wanted to make Cloud kill her -- but he proved quite summarily that he was more than capable of killing her himself when that failed.
I know people have disagreed with me before when I suggested that Sephiroth could have killed anyone in the party at any time he wanted to, but as if Aerith's actual death didn't prove that enough, I think how he manhandled the party in the Whirlwhind Maze should. Even in a combat zone, with the team on alert,
he was able to trick one of them (Barret or Red XIII, player's choice) into believing he was Tifa, and did so while simultaneously knocking four other members of the team unconscious (notice that he left them unconscious, but didn't kill them -- even though he easily could have).
Anyway, point being, in order for Aerith to have lived, the threat would have needed to end no later than the time Seph was trying to kill her there in the City of the Ancients. And if that had happened somehow, there would have been no Lifestream sequence, no Highwind scene, and a lot of other things wouldn't have happened; mainly, Cloud wouldn't have been restored to his original self, and who knows what that would have entailed for his romantic inclinations, as well as Tifa's own ability to state her feelings (Tifa's shyness may have been further complicated by Aerith's ongoing presence).
I'm not sure I understood the point you were making with your first bullet point on the list, by the way.
Zee said:
>implying a cetra couldn't manipulate the lifestream anyway
Between her powers and ability to perceive that something was wrong with Cloud, maybe she would have been able to help him if she'd fallen into the Lifestream with him instead (certainly she could have if the plot demanded it), but I think OWD makes a reasonable point that it doesn't seem
as likely since she doesn't have any memories of the Nibelheim massacre to fact check against Cloud's distorted memories.
Of course, if she found Zack's memories in the Lifestream or woke his spirit up, that would probably do the trick.
The lifestream scene is where Cloud's motivation for joining Soldier, his insecurities and his Edward stalker behavior were revealed. It's where we, as the audience, and Cloud find and get to see ALL of Cloud. And this is all inextricably tied to Tifa because she was such an important person for him from very early on. For example, it is with her that his "failures" begin. She is the first person he cares for that he doesn't get to save (Tifa falls into a coma).
So the lifestream sequence is not just a big C/T moment. It cannot be taken away, and then have Aeris and Cloud be. To alter it would be to fundamentally alter the character.
Sure, if Cloud were not Cloud Aeris would have a chance.
Anyway, I'm not trying to discourage 'what if' conversations. I'm just saying that in order for Aeris and Cloud to be plausible, Cloud's entire background and his relationship with Tifa would have to be rewritten. Not just take-this-scene-away and then everything points to C/A.
Without the Lifestream sequence, Cloud
wouldn't be Cloud, though.
Chun-Li said:
but let's be honest, a main reason WHY tifa even shone was because aerith died.
BZZZZT. No. Try again.
Actually, Aki's right. Read her very next line after the one you quoted: "She tended to stand back when it came to aerith being upfront with her feelings while tifa had a hard time saying how exactly she felt."
It's not unreasonable to think that part of the reason Tifa could never get her feelings out while Aerith was alive is that she couldn't work up her courage between moments of Aerith's straightforward flirting. In addition to the quote Que posted from the Kaitai Shinsho book, even
the 10th Anniversary Ultimania mentions how seeing Aerith and Cloud interact had an effect on Tifa: "Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings."
That "EXCUSE me" line was the only time she openly reacted to it, so it's like she got less courageous as time went on, until after Aerith died.
Haha what, the romantic subplot is the "turning point" of FFVII? Are you shitting me?
I think Eerie's point is that its the scene where everything becomes clear to the player of the game. The largest mystery of the game is answered, and Cloud's true personality is restored. A lot of people see that part of the game as the turning point for those reasons.
Azula said:
I would say the turning point is the death of Aerith, and it's not even because of her relationship with Cloud, it has more to do with the fact that Sephiroth had offed his final roadblock. but w/e I guess shippers gonna ship
You wouldn't know that Seph had apparently removed his final roadblock until you learn about Holy, though, so it's really only on a second look that you would consider that added relevance. It's still a major turning point in the game, though, I agree, and as significant to the overall plot.
Zee said:
>realizing this post is dead serious
Oh, I missed another drama moment? The same people going on about how bad this thread is and pointless and hat we should really just quit picking on CxA now?
TLS has lots of other threads. You're welcome to explore them instead of this one
I see I've missed absolutely nothing since I've been gone. Good to know.
Also, I'm heading back offline again, so the tandem teamwork headed my way won't be read. At least not immediately. But, if it makes ya feel better, you can imagine me frothing in fury and totally flummoxed at the witty and nonsensical rebuttals that are sure to come this way. The limited amount of fuck I still give on this debate is mostly for my own amusement, so amuse me.
You know, peeps, we did lift that rule that you have to mock people you disagree with.
For accuracy's sake, though, OWD,
as Que mentioned, no one said anything about not picking on CxA.
Zee, Winter, Tres just made a post about not doing exactly what you're doing right now.
In fairness, they're not the only ones doing it (see above in my post,
as well as looney's; see also the last part of
this post). Also, they're not spamming as long as their posts contain points relevant to the topic at hand/the comments of whoever they're responding to, which they do.
And the opposite behavior does?
Not at all what she was saying. She's just making the point that it's not a very valuable understanding of the characters and their situations to stop analyzing them at a laundry list of what went down.
People are who they are largely because of what they've experienced. Experiences change, the resultant individual may be different as a result -- and given how thoroughly explored and devleoped FFVII's characters are by virtue of their experiences, the notion of "what if" is very rich indeed.
Yula said:
Anyway just having this thread, whether it's called debate or discussion, doesn't seem the greatest idea. It just puts people in the wrong mindset from the get-go.
It does, and it will be my crowning achievement
in life in this fandom if I can get everybody here to approach the discussion with swords sheathed.
So, um, is Tres gonna spank me if I come in here and don't talk LTD stuff
which I really don't give a poop about anymore? 'Cause sometimes I miss you silly fools and want to come in and say hi and stuff.
Like Que said, a little silliness is expected, normal and fine. Being civil was the primary issue.
And to whether I'm going to spank you, the answer is, with no caveat, "as soon as I get the chance."
