There's also the one posted on page 232 of the 20th AU. THIS is the page that the FTOIL page links to so it's also speaking of romantic feelings.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/PhoenixStar/Page232-FF20thAU.jpg
The underlined version is talking about the High Affection scene. So this quote:
"And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match." ~FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario, pg. 232; FFVII's story summary
Wait a sec… [/FONT]
[FONT="]You say that scan must be about the HA version because that’s what the FTOIL page links to?!? O.O How can you say that when page 232 specifically says there are two versions of the HW scene and that which scene you get is determined by the degree of Tifa’s affection? The same page also says that strong feelings and deep subject matter are only communicated in the high affection version, and that version is specified as being the only version where such feelings take place. Since the page is talking about there being two versions dependent on the degree of Tifa’s affection, then it’s not about the HA version.
[/FONT]
[FONT="]I will discuss the rest of what you’ve said along with the phrase [/FONT]想いを通わせる after consulting with people who are unavailable until after the New Year.[FONT="]
Quex said:
Anastar said:
As Materia Thief explained above, the sentence is actually saying that Tifa’s complicated feelings are due to Cloud thinking that Aerith brought Denzel to him, and Cloud taking care of Denzel.
And, according to that quote, why did Cloud think Aerith brought Denzel to him?
We’re talking about why
Tifa has complicated feelings, not about Cloud’s feelings.
According to Materia Thief, Tifa has complicated feelings because Cloud thinks Aerith brought Denzel to him, is taking care of Denzel, and is visiting Aerith's church. Those are the reasons for Tifa's complicated feelings
regardless of why Cloud is doing it.
Quex said:
Anastar said:
Tifa's profile says that Tifa carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, and Aerith is said to be a love rival. As a love rival, Aerith was attempting to equal or surpass Tifa as a love interest to Cloud. Tifa's profile goes on to say in the second paragraph that this is due to the fact that Cloud thought that Aerith brought Denzel to him, and that Cloud is visiting Aerith's church. That sure sounds like jealousy to me.
Then why does it say complicated feelings and not just "complicated feeling" if it's only jealousy?
But it says that Tifa has
complex feelings as a woman, so all feelings are due to Tifa’s female nature. Jealousy is one obvious feeling due to someone being a love rival, but there are other feelings that go along with jealousy - such as envy, resentment, uneasiness, suspicion, concern, unhappiness, doubt, uncertainty, etc. All of those feelings would be due to jealousy of a love rival.
Quex said:
And what does jealousy prove? Rob, my BF of many years, said to me the other day he was jealous that I was spending so much time with my brother lately. This doesn't mean I romantically love my brother, does it?
But your brother isn't a love rival - the 10th AU said that Aerith was a love rival, not a rival in a platonic sense.
Quex said:
Anastar said:
You say that Aerith does not literally live on inside of Cloud, but Nomura says in Distance that Aerith does live inside of Cloud. In the world of FFVII, it may indeed be possible, since Cloud has more Mako energy (Lifestream) inside of him than the “normal” human due to being submerged in the Lifestream for a lengthy period of time and also because Cloud was infused with Mako energy during the experimentation by Hojo.
We know it's figurative because of the other evidence that tells us Aerith is not inside of Cloud. She's in the Lifestream in CoLW, and in Maiden.
Both CoLW and Maiden happen before AC/ACC.
Furthermore, the point you seem to be missing is that the Lifestream is
also inside of Cloud. According to Bugenhagen, Lifestream (Spirit Energy/Mako energy) is in all lifeforms on the Planet. But as I said before, there is even more Mako energy (Lifestream) inside of Cloud than in other people due to him being submerged in the Lifestream for a lengthy period of time and also because Mako was infused into Cloud during Hojo's experimentation. Since there is excess Lifestream in Cloud, it's even more likely that Aerith's spirit is able to actually reside there.
Bugenhagen also said there are exceptions to souls roaming the Planet in the Lifestream, so Aerith could easily be an exception. After all, there were a bunch of Cetra spirits protecting the Temple of Ancients, so they were residing "outside" of the Lifestream, as you call it.
However, I disagree with the idea of lifeforms (living or dead) existing "outside" of the Lifestream. That'd be like saying that lifeforms exist outside of molecules and atoms in our own universe.
Quex said:
10th AU Playback said:
And when he turns around--- "she" is starting to leave. Together with the friend who had given Cloud his life. Cloud no longer has to suffer in loneliness... And so they too go back to where they belong.
Back to the current of life flowing around the planet
This quote from the 10th AU specifies the Lifestream as the current of life flowing
around the planet (not inside of Cloud) and that this is where Aerith and Zack belong. This makes us conclude that Nomura was speaking figuratively because there is no evidence that Aerith lives directly inside of Cloud, but that she is in the Lifestream that's moving around the planet.
Then how come Bugenhagen says that Lifestream exists inside of Nature?
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Bugenhagen "The spirits that return to the Planet, merge with one another and roam the Planet."
"They roam, converge, and divide, becoming a swell, called the 'Lifestream'."
"Lifestream.... In other words, a path of energy of the souls roaming the Planet." [/FONT][FONT="]
Notice Bugenhagen specifically says that the souls are roaming the Planet. He does not say that the souls are roaming
outside of the Planet. They are, in fact,
part of the Planet because the Lifestream is
part of the Planet.
Bugenhagen "'Spirit Energy' is a word that you should never forget."
"A new life... children are blessed with Spirit energy and are brought into the world."
"Then, the time comes with they die and once again return to the Planet..."
"Of course there are exceptions, but this is the way of the world."
"I've digressed, but you'll understand better if you watch this."
(FMV sequence....)
Spirit energy makes all things possible, trees, birds, and humans.
(Bugenhagen lifts his arm.)
Not just living things. But Spirit energy makes it possible for Planets to be Planets.
So Spirit Energy (which Bugenhagen has already said is the Lifestream) makes all things possible - trees, birds, and humans. In fact, Spirit Energy makes it possible for Planets to be Planets. The Lifestream makes up everything that exists in the universe of FFVII. Then Bugenhagen goes on to specifically say that Spirit Energy exists within nature itself:
Bugenhagen "......These are the basics of the Study of Planet Life."
Cloud "If the Spirit energy is lost, our Planet is destroyed..."
Bugenhagen "Ho Ho Hoooo. Spirit energy is efficient BECAUSE it exists within nature."
"When Spirit energy is forcefully extracted, and manufactured, it can't accomplish its true purpose."
(Cloud looks up at Bugenhagen)
Cloud "You're talking about Mako energy, right?"
Bugenhagen "Everyday Mako reactors suck up Spirit energy, diminishing it."
"Spirit energy gets compressed in the reactors and processed into Mako energy.
All living things are being used up and thrown away."
"In other words, Mako energy will only destroy the Planet..."
So Mako energy = Spirit Energy = Lifestream
Excess Mako energy is inside of Cloud, Mako energy is Spirit Energy which is also the Lifestream.
Aerith's spirit is able to live inside of Cloud as part of the Lifestream.
Quex said:
Anastar said:
But let’s say that it does mean Aerith returned to the Lifestream in the manner you take it to mean. Aerith was in the Lifestream before AC/ACC, was she not? If she was in the Lifestream before AC/ACC, and she left the Lifestream during AC/ACC, that means Aerith is able to leave the Lifestream. So it doesn’t matter if she “returned” – AC/ACC shows that Aerith can leave the Lifestream any time she wants.
But it is where she belongs, right? Why tell us that if she doesn't really belong there?
But I'm not saying she's outside of the Lifestream (even though I think it's impossible for anything living or dead to exist outside of the Lifestream). Aerith is still part of the Lifestream while she is inside of Cloud. They are all one and the same thing, just like molecules and atoms make up all of our own universe.
Quex said:
Anastar said:
But Yuna continued loving Tidus despite the lack of an actual relationship, didn’t she? That just goes to show that an actual relationship isn’t necessary in order for someone to continue loving someone else after that person has died.
True.
Yay!
Quex said:
Anastar said:
]Nomura makes it clear that he's not just talking about Cloud's memories of Aerith. He says that Aerith's consciousness actually lives on inside of Cloud - and in the world of FFVII, that's totally possible.
I apologize if I missed it then, but can you please post evidence of this then? Are there cases in FFVII where someone else lives inside of someone? I would like examples of this specifically, BTW, not just examples of weird stuff happening. I know the FFVII universe isn't like ours, but I would like other examples of a person living inside another person.
Ohhhhh.... it just dawned on me why you are questioning this. We're having a problem because of semantics. Look again at what Nomura said:
[/FONT]
The words “memetic legacy” are used a lot in the film…but in Advent Children, rather than focusing on memories we wanted to show that consciousness is what lives on. We took the ending of the game and expanded on that idea. Even if they’re dead, their consciousness is still with us. As for Cloud…he sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It’s not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness…lives on inside him. ~Nomura; Distance Interview[FONT="]
He's not saying that Aerith has been reborn and she's living as a person inside of Cloud. He's saying that Aerith's
consciousness is still with Cloud. Nomura even says that specifically when he says this:
[/FONT]
Even if they’re dead, their consciousness is still with us.[FONT="]
He's not saying that Aerith is alive again. He's saying that Aerith's consciousness (soul) is with Cloud.
I already explained above how the energy of the Lifestream is part of Cloud, like it is with all living things in the universe of FFVII. If souls are part of the Lifestream and the Lifestream makes up humans, plants, and the whole Planet, then Aerith's soul can roam the Planet and choose to remain in the Lifestream inside of Cloud.
The souls of certain Ancients chose to remain in the Temple of Ancients in order to protect it. That shows that souls can choose the location they reside in.
Maiden also spoke of how the soul of Eleanor chose to stay with her husband, Dyne. Again, that shows that spirits can choose the location they reside in.
Quex said:
And how do you know that Aerith wasn’t able to speak with Ifalna after Ifalna died? Aerith says that Ifalna spoke to her, but Aerith doesn’t specify whether or not she speaks back to Ifalna. The Ancients in the Temple of Ancients are able to speak with Aerith even though they are dead, and Aerith is able to speak back to them. Since Cloud is able to speak with Aerith during AC/ACC, then we know it’s possible for spirits to speak with the living in that universe.
So, if this is so common, why the grief when Aerith dies? if a dead person can speak to a live person at any time, why is there grief when someone dies?
Who says it's common? The examples I gave all involved spirits who are Cetra, and Aerith was the last living Cetra. Grief was shown by Cloud when Aerith died because she's the only Cetra he's ever known. How would he know he'd be able to speak with her after she was dead?
Besides, I didn't say she had been reborn. I said she was able to speak with him and communicate with him as a spirit. It was also shown in AC/ACC that Aerith's able to touch him, and that Cloud is able to see her spirit - but I'm not saying that she's alive.
There's definitely a difference - for example, spirits wouldn't be able to eat, so how could he take her out to dinner? Only Cloud and the children seem to be able to see Aerith, so Cloud would feel rather ridiculous walking around town with his arm around her or kissing her in front of other people. Is he going to take her out on a date and talk to her so it looks like he's talking to himself?
Of course there's a difference between Aerith being alive and existing as an incorporeal spirit who's invisible and inaudible to everyone but Cloud. Of course he'd rather have Aerith alive.
But that's not the real question, since she is in fact dead. The real question is whether Cloud can continue loving her, even though she's dead? And I say - why not? Vincent continues to love Lucrecia, even though she's as good as dead. Yuna continued to love Tidus before he returned in FFX-2 despite the fact that he had essentially died in FFX. Barret continues to love Myra even though she’s dead and he’s unable to communicate with her spirit. And I've been told that the hero and heroine in the new FFZero actually get married
after the heroine dies at the end, so there’s another example of love continuing beyond death.[/FONT]
Quex said:
Anastar said:
The warrior Seto cries when RedXIII visits him with Bugenhagen, even though he’s dead. So once again, we see the dead hearing and interacting with the living in the universe of FFVII.
Seto wasn't dead, he was frozen.
If he’s been frozen for that many years, then I would think that he’s dead. But even if he’s not actually dead - it’s basically the same difference, if you ask me.
Quex said:
Anastar said:
Vincent speaking with a “dead” Lucrecia in the Crystal Caverns during FFVII shows the dead interacting with the living in that universe.
Lucrecia wasn't dead.
Which is why I put the quotes around the word “dead”. Again, it’s the same difference, if you ask me.
Quex said:
Anastar said:
[Dead] Sephiroth speaking with Cloud and Avalanche during FFVII and AC/ACC again shows a dead person speaking with the living, so we know it’s possible in that universe.
Then again I ask, if a dead person can speak to a live person at any time, why is there grief when someone dies?
Not sure that anyone grieved over Sephiroth when he died.
But on topic, I answered that part of your question above.[FONT="]
[/FONT]
Quex said:
Okay sorry I'm not sure what point Zealkin was making here... was it that Aerith can't interact with Cloud or something? I'll let her deal with this.
Okay.
Quex said:
Anastar said:
What makes you think it doesn’t continue? Aerith dying isn’t proof enough alone, since I’ve shown that spirits are able to interact with living people in the universe of FFVII. There are also several examples of living people who continue to love people who have died, in the universe of FFVII, such as Dyne and Eleanor; Barret and Myrna; and Vincent and Lucrecia.
Do you have any evidence is does? It's up to YOU to prove your points, not for us to disprove them.
For one, Nomura saying in
Distance that Aerith’s consciousness remains with Cloud. That in itself would mean that it continues to be possible for Aerith to communicate with him.
Furthermore, the communication continued in AC/ACC, so there’s no reason it
can’t continue after AC/ACC. Before we had much info on AC, I remember some Cloti’s saying that Aerith wouldn’t appear because she’s dead. Well, she did appear. The same circumstances exist now – there’s nothing to indicate that she can’t continue to communicate with Cloud after AC/ACC, especially since the Lifestream also exists within Cloud.
Quex said:
Why all the grief then... blah blah blah?
Answered above.
Quex said:
Anastar said:
As for where you said “the Tifa quote doesn’t”… which “Tifa quote” are you talking about? Because it seems clear to me that the love triangle HAS continued with the quote from Tifa’s profile:
Idk maybe because Cloud was showing he still felt guilty about Aerith's death and all?
First of all, that doesn’t tell me which “Tifa quote” Zealkin was talking about.
But as for Cloud’s guilt, there is apparently evidence in the new novella which indicates that Cloud actually misses Aerith after FFVII and during AC/ACC, not just that he feels guilty. I’m told that’s stated in the following review at amazon.com:
http://www.amazon.co.jp/review/R1S6GYV9SEFPV9
I’m told the same thing was stated in someone’s blog review, although I don’t have the link to it.
Quex said:
Anastar said:
Where does the quote say that Cloud is wavering only at the beginning of the game?
Because that's the only time you can control Cloud to waver.
In the first place, that doesn’t answer where the quote says that Cloud is wavering only at the beginning of the game.
However, Cloud obviously continues to waver in Disk Two since there are two versions of the HW scene. If there was only one way for Cloud to feel about Tifa in Disk Two, then there would only be one version of the Highwind scene.
Quex said:
Because we've been told 7 times out of 8 that there was romance.
I responded to this above. However, I’m still waiting to hear from people about the phrase
想いを通わせる before I finish answering that part.
Quex said:
The phrase "engraved in one's heart/mind" does not always have romantic implications.
Then why would “etched in one’s memory”? You go on to show in the next question that the two are the same phrase in Japanese.
Quex said:
We also know because we look at the greater context of the Compilation. Cloud started a family with her, Cloud having her in a different way and blushing around her, Nojima saying they belong together (same location or not), Nojima speaking about them in the context of love, marriage and family, them having a future together ... and others. When you take all of these into consideration and not just pick them apart one at a time, it paints a picture.
Again, this is all according to your own interpretation. I saw the same evidence while playing the game(s), watching the movie, and reading the novella’s, but I saw nothing romantic in Cloud and Tifa’s situation or relationship. Nor did I see Nojima referring to Cloud and Tifa in the context of love and marriage in his comment about
Case of Tifa – he was obviously just talking about his thoughts on love and marriage in general, if you ask me. I’ve already talked about the other things you listed and why I don’t see them as pointing to a love relationship. It’s all according to your own interpretation of the story. That’s the way you see it – it’s nothing that’s been definitely stated by SE.
The greater context of the Compilation all says to me that Cloud continues to love Aerith, and that he’s living with Tifa as nothing more than a good friend. That’s my interpretation, and no – it hasn’t been definitely stated by SE. But that’s been my whole argument here – SE hasn’t made either side official. You’re merely giving me evidence about your own interpretation. I can give you evidence about my own interpretation, and we can go back and forth on it forever without reaching a definite answer UNTIL we’re finally given a decisive answer by SE. And by the way - they may never do that, for all we know.
Quex said:
Anastar said:
Furthermore, being “engraved in his heart” is nothing like the Promise being “etched in his memory.” Something in your memory is something that you remember, like a definition or someone’s name or an email address. Something in your heart is something that you have an emotional attachment to and that’s very meaningful to you.
In both cases the same word is used actually.
The verb for "etched"/"engraved" used in both cases was 刻, with Aerith said to be engraved in his heart/mind (心) and the promise with Tifa engraved in his chest/heart (胸). It's an idiom for something one will never forget. For example:
http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E5%BF%83%E3%81%AB...m/1C262B3YS5OF0
"Game Sound engraved in [my] heart"
A list of game soundtracks.
http://www.ntv.co.jp/kokoro/
"Scenary engraved in [our] hearts"
A program showcasing different places.
http://cyblog.jp/modules/weblogs/824
心に刻まれた10冊
"10 [books] engraved in my heart"
http://b.hatena.ne.jp/entry/www.itme...3/news051.html
心に刻まれた不快な言葉を上書きする
"Overwriting the unpleasant words engraved in your heart"
http://www.city.agano.niigata.jp/shi...nihonbunri.htm
心に刻まれた日本の思い出
"Memories of Japan engraved in my heart"
That's 5 non-romantic examples. Do you have examples of it being romantic?
For reference purposes:
"彼の心に生涯刻まれることとなる古代種の血を引く少女" (Aerith quote)
"胸にきざまれたティファとの約束" (Tifa quote)
So both could be engraved in his heart depending on who translates it.
Examples of it used romantically:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Ur-Name-Is-Engraved-In-My-Heart/142857832411160
A facebook page all about loving someone
http://foreststone.deviantart.com/art/Engraved-In-My-Heart-177533489
Poem about loving someone
http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/engraved-in-my-heart/
Another poem about loving someone
http://www.voicesnet.org/displayonepoem.aspx?poemid=158856
Another poem about loving someone
http://www.poemslovers.com/love_poems/i_love_you/poems/3133.html
Baby your name is engraved on my heart
My heart longs for you each time you depart
[FONT="]Find more here:
http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=engraved+in+my+heart+poem%22+love&pbx=1&oq=engraved+in+my+heart+poem%22+love&aq=f&aqi=q-w2&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=20824l25919l0l26459l8l7l0l0l0l0l1289l3816l6-3.1l5l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=d6b7c50fe1987ca1&biw=998&bih=630[/FONT]
Quex said:
Anastar said:
If Aerith is Tifa’s love rival, then they are in a love triangle with Cloud. If Cloud is in a love triangle with Tifa and Aerith, then his feelings are wavering between both girls. Nowhere does it say that the Love Triangle ends when Aerith dies. In fact, the date mechanism influences which version of the HW scene you get, so the date mechanism continues influencing the events in Disk Two, which shows that the Love Triangle is still at work at that time.
I actually don't disagree with this. Cloud's actions influence the HW scene. I also agree that it's about who Cloud loves and not who he can be with so saying that Aerith is dead therefore not in the Love Triagle is also wrong IMO.
Quex said:
However, I do disagree with some of what you say to some extent because Square has told us what version of events happened 7 times. They've told us of many optional events and so on, but that doesn't stop them from having a canon version.
And I’ve started to tell you why I disagree with SE telling us 7 times that the HA version happened – I’ll have more to say on the subject after I hear from some other sources who are unavailable until after the new year.
Besides what I’ve said above about context and how SE has disagreed with other TLS translations - for another thing, I have to say that you’re relying
completely on the Ultimania’s for your “proof” that Cloud loves Tifa. Two Ultimania’s also say that which version of the HW scene you get is dependent on the degree of Tifa’s affection for Cloud, which means that no version is canon. More importantly, there has been nothing conclusive in the game(s), movie(s), or novella’s to indicate that Cloud loves Tifa on a non-optional basis. If SE were going to say which pairing is canon, I think they would have shown us conclusively in game or in movie on a non-optional basis instead of expecting readers to fish through multiple pages of the Ultimania in order to figure it out.
[FONT="]And that’s all for now. I will finish the rest later, and get back to you about the phrase [/FONT]
想いを通わせる when I’ve heard from some other sources.
In the meantime – Happy Holidays to everyone!
It is pretty old.
... so I'll just update this with a written response as I get time. But all that I'm going to type I say in the video. So for now enjoy the video. 
) is used as evidence for CxA in COLW, yet somehow the rest of the explanation about how koibito CAN be one-sided conveniently gets ignored.