Addressing the core issues

[Geostigma]

Double post , because because.


@Aaron.

If One of us joined up on LoCP or fools gold, started posting.
Then like Edman, Jay or Abel hopped in and just .gif'd us, or said the post was stupid.

And we complained to you what would you say? You'd say "Thats just how it is here", and dont say that you wouldnt because thats already happened so many times lol.

We all know that thats just how it is and the posts are in jest. Theres nothing we can do about somebody taking it the wrong way aside from asking them to chill out.
If they choose to hide away instead of getting to know the person behind the .gif then hey thats not our problem, its theres.

edit:

Aww god damn, my double post got ninja'd.
Time to read.

 

[Zee]

I've finally worked out that Rishi is looneymoon and Tiff is, i think, Celes, but I have no idea who Road is. I toally understand why you use these names with each other, but I'm sure you can see it might easily get confusing, and become something of a barrier to new people.

I'm not saying the username system should change. It's a well-loved tradition of the forum. I'm just saying that not knowing who you're talking to can make it difficult.

everyone has their most common username in their aka field (and tiff has like, EVERY USERNAME IN HER AKA FIELD), rishi was looneymoon for years before she bothered doing themes (and even then she was mostly just kanaya for a while)

i still don't get why this is confusing

even just like, lurking someone's posts/profile to see what other people call them only takes about 5 minutes


sighs

honestly i'm just gonna say i think this is all way blown out of proportion by something dumb. the offending poster got warned and threatened with a ban, it's fuckin' done. the only high school bullshit going on is this ridiculous persecution complex worrying about whether or not the ~cool kids~ are talking behind your backs.

i mean this in the best way possible when i say that none on the skype group gives enough shits about anyone on irc to go around bullying them

if someone makes a sarcastic response to your comment maybe it's not about them not liking you and more that they just thought something you said warranted it

and since tls has always been really laid back about this stuff, you could either respond in kind or just take their behavior up with a mod and that would be that because hey! it's that thing where we're adults again, and we can deal with it

this is just some kind of crazy ass circus i want no part in anymore

 

[Alex Strife]

"Oh noes I got 2 thanks, bawwwwl"

It may just be a coincidence on the number used to make your example. But if you said this because of what I wrote, and this is all you got from it, I feel sorry for you.

 

[Ryushikaze]

You might not be intending to bully them, but you are making them distinctly uncomfortable by the way you act in general and in certain cases to them specifically. Many shits were given that I needed to be cognizant of how I came off to other people and to be careful about what I posted and how it affected people.
We are, in essence, asking you to do exactly the same thing so that these people who honestly really do love TLS and several of whom participate the whole board over can feel comfortable enough to return to posting. This is not a new poster thing. This is not an IRC thing. This is a forum atmosphere thing.
We are all responsible for this. I am trying to do my part. I ask that you all try and do your own.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Yes aaron .gif responses to there 10 page essay posts about nothing are totally personal attacks. Most of the insults there claiming happened arent insults at all they just dont get how we post and take everything the wrong way.

First of all, a .gif response to a post someone put an awful lot of time into comes across as pretty condescending and rude. I've made them myself, and, uh, I wasn't exactly intending to be polite to the recipient. Of course, the recipient was DLPB so I don't think anyone cared.

Secondly, I was hardly referring to just ".gif responses to ten page essay posts". There have been a lot of questionable comments that can easily be interpreted as inflammatory, and not all of them have been infracted or otherwise dealt with.

@Aaron.

If One of us joined up on LoCP or fools gold, started posting.
Then like Edman, Jay or Abel hopped in and just .gif'd us, or said the post was stupid.

And we complained to you what would you say? You'd say "Thats just how it is here", and dont say that you wouldnt because thats already happened so many times lol.

We all know that thats just how it is and the posts are in jest. Theres nothing we can do about somebody taking it the wrong way aside from asking them to chill out.
If they choose to hide away instead of getting to know the person behind the .gif then hey thats not our problem, its theres.

edit:

Aww god damn, my double post got ninja'd.
Time to read.

That's, uh, not how Fool's Gold is. The board culture has changed a lot in the past several years. Large numbers of people were driven off by the constant climate of hostility, and a fair number of other people began making public complaints about it, and as a result staff decided to take action about it. We now punish flaming pretty severely. Three people have been permabanned, including (surprise, surprise) Abel. There hasn't been any drama for probably nine months, and only a couple of people have a problem with the way things have changed, but they have stuck around regardless.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

You might not be intending to bully them, but you are making them distinctly uncomfortable by the way you act in general and in certain cases to them specifically. Many shits were given that I needed to be cognizant of how I came off to other people and to be careful about what I posted and how it affected people.
We are, in essence, asking you to do exactly the same thing so that these people who honestly really do love TLS and several of whom participate the whole board over can feel comfortable enough to return to posting. This is not a new poster thing. This is not an IRC thing. This is a forum atmosphere thing.
We are all responsible for this. I am trying to do my part. I ask that you all try and do your own.

it's sort of hard to tell everyone 'hey change your behavior guys' when many of us aren't even sure of what about our behavior is suddenly so wrong

 

[Zee]

yeah this vague wording is not helping matters like, at all

stop walking on eggshells because baww you might hurt someone's feelings (as though accusing people of acting horrible and bullying others wouldn't already maybe hurt someone's feelings just a thought??)

 

[Geostigma]

You might not be intending to bully them, but you are making them distinctly uncomfortable by the way you act in general and in certain cases to them specifically. Many shits were given that I needed to be cognizant of how I came off to other people and to be careful about what I posted and how it affected people.
We are, in essence, asking you to do exactly the same thing so that these people who honestly really do love TLS and several of whom participate the whole board over can feel comfortable enough to return to posting. This is not a new poster thing. This is not an IRC thing. This is a forum atmosphere thing.
We are all responsible for this. I am trying to do my part. I ask that you all try and do your own.

1. Except you were being a creep or a straight up ass hole most of the time

2. You were a mod when you did it.

3. Sorry but its not going to change. The forum atmosphere is one that was created by the many and not the few. If the few dont like it, oh well.

Prince Lex sees a .gif reply to a long post and gets upset.
I see a .gif reply that is a appropriately timed response to a dumb/long post, I laugh.

This is something that cant be fixed. One persons rude is another persons hilarity.
This forum was founded on the idea that we were not going to censor the members, so to come here and ask people not to be "rude" is insulting to the actual members of this community.
Notice how I say community and not forum

Some people just need to grow a backbone and scoot along because nothing is going to change.

 

[Hisako]

I may or may not have brought it up somewhere else but I think Yop's suggestion of "DON'T BE A DICK" should be amended to the rules right at the top as #1. (Also what are eggshells and why do people keep mentioning them lol)

I mean, seriously, don't be a dick, right? If you personally take pride in instances where you've been a dick to people, I think there's part of the problem right there. You might like it, some of your friends might like it, but I'm sure as hell going to suggest that a whole lot of other people won't.

Yes aaron .gif responses to there 10 page essay posts about nothing are totally personal attacks. Most of the insults there claiming happened arent insults at all they just dont get how we post and take everything the wrong way.

And yet, might there actually be a problem with that, if a member of the society outside peers in and finds something wrong with it? That "they just don't get how we post" might be a secluding factor in all this?

Posting a macro in reply to a heartfelt and serious post, in a serious discussion, is extremely rude. I would elaborate on it, but Aaron nailed it. Many of us are probably guilty of it at some point (perhaps me included), but I think it's another symptom of the problem we should be addressing.

Every problem in this forum has been a two-way street. I think the attitude that people have towards posting has been extremely toxic at times. We're an incredibly sarcastic bunch, but we're also incredibly passionate, or we wouldn't have signed up for a bloody Final Fantasy VII fansite/forum.

I think, though, for at least the time being, we need to have a period were we clamp down on the way we talk, the way we act. It doesn't need to be forever, I've always loved the freedom of speech we get here. It's the freedom we deserve, but not the one we need right now.

Some people just need to grow a backbone and scoot along because nothing is going to change.

I vehemently disagree with this. Something needs to change, otherwise all that's left will be a small group of friends posting by themselves in a forum no-one will care to join.

 

[Geostigma]

First of all, a .gif response to a post someone put an awful lot of time into comes across as pretty condescending and rude. I've made them myself, and, uh, I wasn't exactly intending to be polite to the recipient. Of course, the recipient was DLPB so I don't think anyone cared.

Secondly, I was hardly referring to just ".gif responses to ten page essay posts". There have been a lot of questionable comments that can easily be interpreted as inflammatory, and not all of them have been infracted or otherwise dealt with.

That's, uh, not how Fool's Gold is. The board culture has changed a lot in the past several years. Large numbers of people were driven off by the constant climate of hostility, and a fair number of other people began making public complaints about it, and as a result staff decided to take action about it. We now punish flaming pretty severely. Three people have been permabanned, including (surprise, surprise) Abel. There hasn't been any drama for probably nine months, and only a couple of people have a problem with the way things have changed, but they have stuck around regardless.

Im sorry aaron I respect you and thats why you were the first person me and Road went to when we were making SO.. but I cant honestly believe you are actually serious about all of this.

Especially since you are the person who helped create the spam rules and was all for a forum (SO) based all around them
edit:
For reference for those of you who didnt know about the Spam rules from SO and ACF, basically it was a big list of rules telling people like prince lex to deal with it.

And to send nudes to our inbox

 

[Ⓐaron]

The thing is, bro, the culture of the board changed. People grew up and their preferences for what they found appealing to see changed.

And at the same time, the atmosphere at the board got much worse. Abel had gotten to the point where he was starting fights with members in almost every thread, and people were sick of it.

If I had let nothing happen, the board would have died completely. It already was dying, and people were threatening to leave. People begged me to step in. Are you seriously saying that I would have been a more effective leader doing nothing? This appears to be what you are saying.

ACF's spam rules were great for ACF's spam forum. But they were not applied across the board, and I never wanted them applied across the board. If they had been applied across the board, the forum would have died.

TLS has a similar problem now. I have been here since the beginning (with the exception of a couple of sabbaticals), and it was certainly not as hostile then as it is now.

Some people just need to grow a backbone and scoot along because nothing is going to change.

uh

1. Rule #1 of TLS is basically "Don't be a dick"; I want everyone to be more considerate of this rule and general attitude; don't be a dick, report people being a dick, and warn people being dicks.

2. I saw CK's post yesterday, and I was thinking (and making a note somewhere) "Hmm, maybe I should edit this post before people jump on it". I was right; if I did all of this probably wouldn't have happened, CK would've gotten a warning, apologise and we could move on. I propose editing offensive posts; either to remove the offensive content, or at the very least to indicate that it has been dealt with. Previously we (the staff) decided to improve communication and we try to PM people after making reports, but I can imagine it's not very obvious if you're not the one getting warned or the one making the report what happens with unwanted posts / remarks. I propose just editing them out. Staff can restore posts if they're edited / deleted unwarranted, but please, be mature about it. It's still only a patch though; just don't be a dick and it doesn't need to happen.

3. Segregation is a fact of life; if you don't feel at home in the IRC channel, we're sorry, but not everyone can get along with everyone, it's just life etc. If you still want someplace to chat outside of the forums and don't want to go to skype or w/e, feel free to create a new channel in the IRC. like #dagon.

4. It sucks that people are leaving over people being dicks. Stop being dicks, and stop leaving.

5. There is no point 5, I don't think I have anything else to add. Get along, or gtfo,

 

[Alex Strife]

I was going to post a long tl;dr about a particular problem I thought this community has.

But then I remembered that even though I'm generally ignored, I suddenly become really easy to spot when I say the tiniest thing that is the tiniest bit offensive to someone. No matter how much of a mistake it was and how unintentional the offense was. Even if I always try to be as kind and polite to everyone as possible. So then I decided not to post what I had written, because someone would have been offended by it, for sure, and I would have gotten in trouble.

Really, sometimes I don't know why I keep posting I'm lucky that there's still some people here who I can actually interact with.

 

[Geostigma]

Some of the people who left, left because of you (aaron) and ryu

Im sorry but this whole dont be a "dick" is stupidly vague. So what were not supposed to be ourselves anymore and .gif stupid posts? Its stupid and if TLS is becoming a forum that caters to the emotions of drive by posters who dont post that much to begin with then, thats pretty sad.

 

[Hisako]

Im sorry but this whole dont be a "dick" is stupidly vague. So what were not supposed to be ourselves anymore and .gif stupid posts? Its stupid and if TLS is becoming a forum that caters to the emotions of drive by posters who dont post that much to begin with then, thats pretty sad.

So posting stupid posts is somehow being yourself?

 

[Geostigma]

So posting stupid posts is somehow being yourself?

Obviously yeah.

The point still stands though. So what we have to worry someone might take offense to the fact were disagreeing with them? Most of the posts prince lex is alluding to arent insults at all its just a case of nobody agreeing with him and he got upset about it.

So were not supposed to disagree with one of four members now because they'll complain to staff about cliques and stuff? Its sad and really silly.

People are going to feel bad here and there, theres nothing we can do about someone taking something silly the wrong way.

 

[Ⓐaron]

No one is saying you can't disagree with other people. All they are asking is that the disagreement be more respectful.

 

[CK]

I'm the root cause of all of this yet no one has bothered to even acknowledge my post? I'm done. You are the cancer killing TLS and you should all feel bad.


Also:

 

[Tennyo]

Sooooo recent events never happened?
Also
On the matter of cliques I think the most recent post by ryu in the stats thread kinda hits the nail on the head "don't post in this thread unless your quoting stuff from irc" ....... Seems kinda cliquey to me.

You know how you could change that?

Go chat in the IRC channel if it really means THAT much to you.

Then you could be part of the clique, too.

If you don't, that's your choice, and your fault, not anyone else's.

I mean fuck, if you think IRC is boring and you don't enjoy it, that's one thing, but it's still your choice not to go in. If not being able to join in when people talk about IRC bothers you, then stop whining and do something about it.

I don't know, it seems like there have been clique problems on TLS for a long time. They aren't any more or less imaginary now than they were when that Anon poster was sending in secrets about it.

People got defensive then, and people are getting defensive now. Funny how it isn't the same group, though.

But wtf do I know? I barely post anymore.

 

[stiles]

only read the first page or two, i don't know which direction this threads taken, but if i could offer any advice to any of you.. it would be to not give a shit. thats all, not gonna say that youre all being dramatic while getting involved myself or any other ironic slash hypocritical stuff. just stop giving a shit about internetizens one off comments on A FINAL FANTASY FORUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[stiles]

no joke this is one of the most easily offended communities IN THE WORLD REAL LIFE AND THE INTERNET. YOURE WORSE THAN BIBLE BELT CHRISTIANS SOMETIMES. IM SURE A BIBLE BELT CHRISTIAN IS GOING TO POST ABOUT HOW OFFENDED THEY ARE NOW.

 

[Tennyo]

Fuck this shit, let's go picket some funerals.

I'm sure God hates TLS, too.

 

[Alex]

no joke this is one of the most easily offended communities IN THE WORLD REAL LIFE AND THE INTERNET. YOURE WORSE THAN BIBLE BELT CHRISTIANS SOMETIMES. IM SURE A BIBLE BELT CHRISTIAN IS GOING TO POST ABOUT HOW OFFENDED THEY ARE NOW.

 

[CK]

The problem here is people are getting way to upset over literally nothing.

Make a post saying 'what'
THAT'S OFFENSIVE

Make a post containing 10,000 LOL's
OH NO YOU DIDN'T

Make a post containing a GIF
HOW DARE YOU

Post an opinion I don't agree with?
BAN THIS MOTHER FUCKER RIGHT THE FUCK NOW

Jesus fucking christ you really need to get the fuck over yourselves.

 

[Cookie Monster]

First of all, the IRC has nothing to do with the divide in the community. The IRC is relatively new, and this divide began years before it was set up. Closing the IRC isn't going to solve anything. Those people are going to move to Skype, MSN, or simply leave the site since they don't enjoy posting on the forum. And, if closing the IRC were an option, we'd have to replace it with something else. The only thing I can think of is the goddamn chatbox. The chatbox was on the forum index page, no one was being forced to post on the forum, and it wasn't as secluded as the IRC is. So, we may want to think about bringing that feature back.

Second of all, posting gifs in response to serious posts is inappropriate, especially when done without giving constructive feedback. It's even made worse when you do it with someone you don't even know, like the newer members. Doing that shit doesn't help the situation at all, and you're probably just coming across as a cunt.

And third, comparing the communities of TLS to ACF, FG, and FCF is pretty pointless. Just because something was once allowed or is allowed on ACF or FG, doesn't mean it's alright to do the same here. Most of the forums that are being used as examples have either shut down or have been severely crippled in terms of activity. Fools Gold and ACF should not be used as paragons for this site. End of story.

EDIT:

Make a post saying 'what'
THAT'S OFFENSIVE

 

[Makoeyes987]

I want the chat box back, tbh. Fuck it.

And yes, we need to be respectful to each other. PLEASE. Is that so fucking hard to ask?

Likewise, also try to assume some good faith here. People have different senses of humor and some are a bit darker than others. Not everything is an insult. So do try to keep that in mind as well.

Sensitivity and understanding needs to come from both ends here. We need to stop thinking of each member as an attacker, and we also need to stop forgetting that the person behind the user-name is a human being.

Just...as Yop said. Don't be dicks. That's all.