Avatar: The Last Airbender & Korra (SPOILERS)

[Theozilla]

Second part of Civil Wars aired last night. Great episode, but a little more uneven in its pacing than the previous one. Despite Unalaq’s more apparent villainy now, there does still seem to be more to his motives. Unalaq’s power hungry sure, but he also seems convinced that he is protecting the world from some spiritual threat.

As for people who saying Korra was being stupid for trusting "Tarrlok 2.0", Korra never really "fell" for Tarrlok though, she was fully aware of his motivations and manipulations. She only went along with them because Tarrlok got the press to put her on spot and accused her of neglecting her Avatar duties, which Korra puts a lot of stock in.

She listened/trusted Unalaq initially because he was making good points and giving her some freedom in her decision making. Tenzin and Tonraq never really made any good arguments as to why Korra should not listen to Unalaq in the first episodes, they were mostly all, “Because I said so” . They never really answered the legit question of “Oh, hey, there’s this weird imminent spirit thing going on that only one guy has any idea how to solve. What’s the reason I can’t just take a month off airbending training to have him teach me Spirit Bending?” Their answers were essentially “Because we said so; and besides, look at him, he has a weasel face.” I’d probably be more inclined to hang out with someone who’s constantly saying he trusts me and giving freedom in my decision making. Also Korra did not put complete faith in Unalaq or was completely "clueless" about him, she became increasingly more distrustful him and questioned him more the more extreme/questionable his actions became.

 

[Lex]

Just watched episode 4. Here's the thing... I have a real thing for travel stories. I think this is one of the reasons I like ATLA so much, it just really hit something that made me enjoy the setting and the different cultures etc etc.

So when I watched the first season of Korra, I was really excited about the show continuing and stuff, but I was a bit bummed that it was all set in one place. I'm not that into steampunk, I don't really get it/ the fascination with it. I honestly vastly preferred the less technological setting of ATLA. I do like that they made it different enough to be fresh though, I definitely recognise that a change was needed. The setting doesn't bother me, but being stuck in one city kind of did. However, the first season was amazing anyway.

Based on the first two episodes of book 2, I was a little disappointed. Korra seems to have lost all of her previous character development and she's kinda whiny. I mean I know she has her reasons but come on. Episodes 3 and 4 kind of fixed all of this for me. Like the end of episode 4 has me really really excited for the rest of the season now, it's getting nomadic again which is what I seem to want from this show. I like how they're building it up and I'm looking forward to seeing what's going to happen next.

 

[Theozilla]

Just watched episode 4. Here's the thing... I have a real thing for travel stories. I think this is one of the reasons I like ATLA so much, it just really hit something that made me enjoy the setting and the different cultures etc etc.

So when I watched the first season of Korra, I was really excited about the show continuing and stuff, but I was a bit bummed that it was all set in one place. I'm not that into steampunk, I don't really get it/ the fascination with it. I honestly vastly preferred the less technological setting of ATLA. I do like that they made it different enough to be fresh though, I definitely recognise that a change was needed. The setting doesn't bother me, but being stuck in one city kind of did. However, the first season was amazing anyway.

I am not sure if you read many of the interviews with the creators, but one of the things the creators repeatedly stated about TLOK vs. ATLA, is that TLOK will not be a traveling show like ATLA and that it is mostly going to center around Republic City and a few other significant locations that vary depending on the Book. Book 2 is specifically mostly centered around Republic City, Water Tribes, and the Spirit World. So you might want to temper your expectations to that info.

Based on the first two episodes of book 2, I was a little disappointed. Korra seems to have lost all of her previous character development and she's kinda whiny. I mean I know she has her reasons but come on. Episodes 3 and 4 kind of fixed all of this for me. Like the end of episode 4 has me really really excited for the rest of the season now, it's getting nomadic again which is what I seem to want from this show. I like how they're building it up and I'm looking forward to seeing what's going to happen next.

I have to really disagree with this sentiment, while Korra was harsh to Tenzin and Tonraq, her anger with them was understandable and arguably justified. Calling her "whiney" IMO is an oversimplification of her anger and disregards her feelings and position.
I think this analysis/meta of the first couple episodes of Book 2 explains Korra's mindset well:
http://shineyavatar.tumblr.com/post/61320415858/saying-korra-learned-nothing-from-book-one-is

I’ve seen this all over the place, and it’s just as stupid every time it comes up. Korra might be as irritable and aggressive as she was at the beginning of Book One, but her experience with Amon is vital to understanding her issues as of the beginning of Book Two.

Here’s the thing. Constant training and limited companionship? That was normal for early Book One Korra. She rebelled against it initially because she didn’t feel like she learning anything, not because she thought she was being mistreated.

And then, Book One happens. The main thing she takes away from it? That “Korra” is more than “the Avatar,” even if she isn’t sure who she is. All of the freedom she had competing in pro-bending and fighting Amon was good for her, because it meant that when Amon took her bending, there was still a life there worth preserving.

So, what happens next? Why, Tenzin reverts back to treating her like she’d always been treated, of course. But this time, she knows exactly what she’s missing and how important it is. Why wouldn’t she be furious? She still barely knows who she is, and as long as that’s the case, she’s in a terrible position if her powers are threatened again.

I think the key point is the background for which she’s acting as ‘rebellious’ as she is. In Book 1, she turned away from Tenzin’s teaching because she felt she was failing and couldn’t live up to the expectations, in book 2 she’s turning away from him and her father because she feels they are trying to control her and pull her in a direction she doesn’t necessarily want to go.

She’s not just being ‘immaturely rebellious’ for no reason; she’s questioning because she’s realized that she is a person who has the right for an agency of her own. Her father keeps treating her like she can’t handle independence and trust, and that’s frustrating for her because she feels she deserves that, she feels she needs that.

Because this what she learned from Book 1, that she’s a person outside of being the Avatar, and people shouldn’t just boss her around with the excuse “this is what the Avatar should do”. No, Korra has a personal right to be respected and to decide for herself, and this obviously sticks deeper than the current situation. Korra has been controlled and locked up her entire life, and then she finds out that it’s for the wrong reasons, reasons that she’s literally been lied to about. She doesn’t feel respected, she doesn’t feel supported, and all she really wants is to figure out who she’s supposed to be, as a person and as the Avatar.

And as I said before:

She listened/trusted Unalaq initially because he was making good points and giving her some freedom in her decision making. Tenzin and Tonraq never really made any good arguments as to why Korra should not listen to Unalaq in the first episodes, they were mostly all, “Because I said so” . They never really answered the legit question of “Oh, hey, there’s this weird imminent spirit thing going on that only one guy has any idea how to solve. What’s the reason I can’t just take a month off airbending training to have him teach me Spirit Bending?” Their answers were essentially “Because we said so; and besides, look at him, he has a weasel face.” I’d probably be more inclined to hang out with someone who’s constantly saying he trusts me and giving freedom in my decision making. Also Korra did not put complete faith in Unalaq or was completely "clueless" about him, she became increasingly more distrustful him and questioned him more the more extreme/questionable his actions became.

But either way, I am glad that you enjoyed the "Civil Wars" episodes and that you're excited for what's going to happen next in Book 2...but just don't expect to nomadic in structure like ATLA was, because its not going to be.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Ah yess I finished ATLA and Book 1 of Legend of Korra and they are awesome! I honeslty want to watch ATLA from the beginning

Favorite character is Zuko :>

As much as discussing the newest episodes is nice I plan to watch Spirits after it's finished.

 

[Theozilla]

http://family-room.ew.com/2013/10/09/steve-yeun-legend-of-korra/

So people going to the TLOK panel at NYCC will get an advanced screening of the first part of the two part Avatar Wan episodes this Saturday.
A clip for the episode is also in the link.

 

[jazzflower92]

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christ...-consider-while-watching-the-legend-of-korra/

Here is something from the Evangelical channel on Patheos about the Legend Of Korra.

 

[Carlie]

I have no posted in this thread since the premiere a few weeks ago. I've been massively disappointed with Book 2 so far, not only has the series failed to improve on anything from last season it has in fact regressed from Book 1. Here's a post from Tumblr that nails some of the problems with Book 2:

Spoiler

Last year, although The Legend of Korra faltered at the end it was still one of my favorite series of the year. So the fact that Korra is so weak this year is almost painful.

The problem all season has been that our heroes are doing anti-heroic things without the show treating them like anti-heroes. “Peacekeepers” takes that problem and blows it up to lion turtle proportions. In the span of 22 minutes, Korra, Asami, and Bolin agree to engage in war profiteering and inciting a mutiny for the purpose of forwarding their personal goals of helping the Southern Water Tribe, saving Future Industries, and hanging around with the Avatar, respectively. Now, I wouldn’t have a problem with certain characters resorting to less-than-scrupulous means to achieve their ends, but the way Korra is going about it makes the characters come off as naïve, ignorant, and immature. I understand that their teenagers, but, to use an argument I have had to bring up pretty much every week, last year, although they made mistakes and were definitely teenagers, they were smart enough and competent enough to be heroic.

Korra’s judgment is impaired because she has a vested interest in the outcome of the Water Tribe civil war, but one of last year’s key lessons was that she is everyone’s Avatar. For her to be so focused on winning the war for the South, even if that means destroying the North and exploiting the United Republic of Nations to do it, means that she has forgotten her character development from last year. Asami’s story is just as troubling. We are told that Future Industries is hurting, but Asami has gotten so little screentime that we don’t know the extent of it or how it is affecting her. If we understood her desperation, getting involved in shady business dealings would at least be sympathetic. But even with proper set-up, the idea that Asami would cheerfully engage in war profiteering is outrageous. She was established as one of the kindest, most moral people in Republic City last year, someone with business savvy, intelligence, and an strong moral compass. This year, neither she nor Korra balk at the idea of war profiteering. In fact, they don’t even seem to understand that it is wrong. And Bolin continues to be a lovably dumb exaggeration of who he was last year. He doesn’t see through Varrick’s painfully obvious exploitation of him and he’s just happy to be of help, even if the help he is giving is to Varrick’s propaganda campaign. Throw in General Iroh, who was onboard to mutiny for Korra (and he even acknowledged that the plan was wrong and illegal), and the entire cast seems to have lost their mind. (Except Mako. The fact that he has become the only sane man is quite disturbing.)

I get what the series is going for. Team Avatar is making mistakes and choosing the wrong side and the wrong methods, and will have to learn from their mistakes. Varrick seems like a cool guy, and he is more than willing to help them. They will have to learn that he’s the villain, that he’s tempting them with promises of success and cool gadgets. They will have to learn that even though the president of the United Republic seems stern and cold, he has perfectly legitimate reasons for not getting his country involved in a foreign war that does not affect his people. (The United States could learn from his example.) But their journey through bad decision-making must make sense. It must be true to the characters and be derived from absolute desperation. All of the ingredients are there. Korra and Asami both have the desperation. But when the characters have been established as smart, moral, and heroic, the only way for them to make the choices they are making is for them to do so knowing they are wrong choices, but make them anyway. The characters’ naïveté is both untrue to the characters and boring. Team Avatar has shown it has learned the difference between right and wrong. For them to have choose wrong, knowing it to be wrong, because they feel they have no other option is dramatic and interesting.

Random Thoughts

Another “telling, not showing” problem: In the Southern Air Temple story, Tenzin taught Meelo how to be a leader so that Meelo can train his new lemur. At the end, Meelo has become such a strict trainer that he has the temple’s entire lemur population trained. Tenzin is horrified to learn that he has “created a monster.” But in what way? Meelo isn’t being cruel to the lemurs. He doesn’t abuse his power. Instead, Meelo has lost his personality, which, while not the best result, is a far cry from becoming a monster.
The show’s total reversal of its respectful portrayal of women continues. This week, Eska has gone from being emotionless to out-of-control-emotional after losing Bolin, and Korra throws a temper tantrum in a police station because Mako admitted to the president, his commander-in-chief, that Korra was planning to incite mutiny.
Korra: if you’re not with her, then you’re against her.
In promotional materials for this season, the creators state that Varrick has connections to gangs, which makes him far and away the most likely suspect for person behind the Agni Kai bombing, which he has most likely done to stir up anti-Northern sentiments.
More on Varrick and his shenanigans: Really, how does Team Avatar realize he’s not on the up-and-up? He brazenly brags about buying off politicians on top of being the one to suggest using the United Forces without the consent of the president and selling mecha tanks to a losing army.
Mako sees the Agni Kai members exit the scene and detonate the bomb. Mako tells Korra what he saw. Korra doesn’t believe him, and remains convinced that the Northern Water Tribe was responsible, thus sticking to her preconceived narrative. Korra has become the FOX News of Avatars.

It has been absolutely frustrating to watch Book 2, the series has the potential to be better but has completely failed so far. There's the same pacing problems from last year, the civil war and what little we've seen the from the spirits plot has not been even remotely as interesting or good as the Equalist plot of last season, I hope that will chance when the characters voiced by Grey DeLisle are introduced, whenever the hell that will be. Korra showed some of her character development in the first 3 episodes while dealing with the Northern and Southern tribe and then that completely went out the window and now she's an even bigger brat and jerkass than she was when Book 1 started. The god awful romantic plot tumor of Mako/Korra/Asami/Bolin is now replaced by the almost equally as bad romantic plot tumor of the jerkass relationship that is Makorra. Bolin's entire existence of the series is still just a butt monkey, no sort of development that was promised on his character has been made. The idea that Asami would approve of war profiteering is rather preposterous and insulting to what has been one of the few well rounded and interesting characters of the series. There's a significant lack of interesting recurring characters and Lin has been in grand total of 4 scenes at best.

About the only thing interesting so far in Book 2 has been the side plot of Tenzin/Bumi/Kya and the rest of the family.

 

[Theozilla]

I have no posted in this thread since the premiere a few weeks ago. I've been massively disappointed with Book 2 so far, not only has the series failed to improve on anything from last season it has in fact regressed from Book 1. Here's a post from Tumblr that nails some of the problems with Book 2:


It has been absolutely frustrating to watch Book 2, the series has the potential to be better but has completely failed so far. There's the same pacing problems from last year, the civil war and what little we've seen the from the spirits plot has not been even remotely as interesting or good as the Equalist plot of last season, I hope that will chance when the characters voiced by Grey DeLisle are introduced, whenever the hell that will be. Korra showed some of her character development in the first 3 episodes while dealing with the Northern and Southern tribe and then that completely went out the window and now she's an even bigger brat and jerkass than she was when Book 1 started. The god awful romantic plot tumor of Mako/Korra/Asami/Bolin is now replaced by the almost equally as bad romantic plot tumor of the jerkass relationship that is Makorra. Bolin's entire existence of the series is still just a butt monkey, no sort of development that was promised on his character has been made. The idea that Asami would approve of war profiteering is rather preposterous and insulting to what has been one of the few well rounded and interesting characters of the series. There's a significant lack of interesting recurring characters and Lin has been in grand total of 4 scenes at best.

About the only thing interesting so far in Book 2 has been the side plot of Tenzin/Bumi/Kya and the rest of the family.

I can agree that the series still has some pacing issues, but everything else I have to absolutely disagree with.

Korra doesn't want to destroy the North, she wants to prevent the South from being massacred (and Varrick and Korra's plan wasn't mutiny, it was going behind the presidents back, but they weren't trying to remove the president from office). That is why she and Asami don't have any problems wanting to do potentially morally grey actions if it helps helps out what they feel is the just side (which after Civil Wars Part 2 the South is framed as).

Bolin is too having character development; as shown on screen (and stated by P.J. Bryne) Bolin's feeling a little lost in life, and he is trying to figure out what he want to do with his life. Bolin's always been performer type of character, he loves making other people happy, Bolin's acting career is all part of his search for his place in life (and he'll also have to deal with Varrick's betrayal as well as part of his arc).

Mako and Korra's relationship is hardly a jerkass one. They are a couple dealing with stressful situations. Both sides reactions to each when they come into conflict are completely understandable. Calling Korra a brat or "throwing a temper tantrum" is completely inaccurate and unfairly dismisses her feelings and position she is experiencing.
And Korra isn't really being uniquely "stupid" for not believing Mako about the North WT not being responsible for the SWT Cultural center bombing. No one else believes him either (including Beifong, Raiko and the police); the context of the march made it seem entirely reasonable to suspect the NWT. Mako was literally the only person who saw otherwise, and a rookie cop's word doesn't hold much weight.

Tenzin's remark was partially for comedy and partially reflects how he is unnerved how Meelo overthrew himself into training/instructing to an unhealthy degree, which is exactly how Tenzin approaches training often. It's pointing how their are flaws in Tenzin's own instructing method's.

As for Lin Beifong not having much screen time, Bryke have already stated beforehand Lin's role in Book 2 in not as large as it was in Book 1, but she'll have a larger one in Book 3.

And here is my tumblr meta as well:

http://pulpofiction.tumblr.com/post/63356054688/korras-side-of-the-break-up

Korra’s dealing with an identity crisis on several levels - first, she is only still learning to accept that she, as a person who does not need to be defined and limited by the Avatar identity, has her own needs and personal desires. The first few episodes of B2 were all about that: Korra learning to voice what she wants to her mentors and guardians, despite what they think the Avatar should do.

At the same time, Mako was trying to support her: make your own decisions, Korra, trust yourself, I’ll support what you want to do. Let’s also remember that at the end of B1, he told her that he doesn’t care if she’s the Avatar or not, he loves her. He loves Korra, a girl who is also the Avatar.

Then the Southern Water Tribe is invaded, and Korra is faced with a dilemma that hits her in two places: first, her own personal attachment to the SWT, as a girl born and raised in the South Pole. Her family’s there, her home is there, she’s culturally and emotionally attached. For obvious reasons, Korra wants to defend the SWT and protect it from invasion in any way possible. She’d want to do this even if she weren’t the Avatar. The second part of the dilemma is that she’s still a bit stuck on what she’s supposed to do as the Avatar. What role is the Avatar supposed to play in a civil war? What role should the Avatar play? Should she be a diplomat or a warrior?

But, As You Know, Korra is ruled more by her heart than by her head, and in ep. 5 she was acting in her political role as the Avatar for very personal reasons. The Avatar, trying to convince President Raiko to send troops to save the SWT: actually just Korra, desperate to help her homeland and her family, and using the full weight and influence of her title to do it.

So of course she gets pissed off when Mako starts suggesting neutrality. It’s almost like a personal attack - she’s decided that it’s her job as the Avatar to protect her homeland and family and he wants her to be more diplomatic? Nooope. Mako is thinking about what the Avatar should do; she interprets that as him thinking about what she, Korra, should do and feel - Mako reacted against that, against the way she took any discussion of what role the Avatar should play as an affront or insult to her personal attachment to the SWT. She accuses him of always getting in the way of her doing her job, but she’s actually probably more upset that Mako isn’t understanding or recognizing why she needs to do her job.

And then he breaks up with her, because he doesn’t know how to deal with that, and Korra probably took it as a rejection of who she is entirely, both Avatar and girl, the whole sum of her being.

http://crystalzelda.tumblr.com/post/63129898072/okay-wow-can-we-talk-about-the-breakup-because-it

They’re both super busy with their jobs, and that’s great, but they have no respect for each other’s position, at least none that will make them take a step back and be more sympathetic. Mako has a job, he is a cop, and he’s trying to think logically and use his skills and his work to set things right. Korra really doesn’t take that into account and just is too reactionary and thinks he’s always against her. But Mako doesn’t take into account Korra’s position, the very real threat and harm her family is facing, that her parents and all her community could get fucking KILLED and nobody’s doing a damn thing to help them out.

Mako didn’t have to tell the president about her plan, he really didn’t, but she could have had more respect for his position as an officer of the law. She was wrong to come in and fuck up his office (though lol I’m sorry, she showed restraint lbr), and he returned in kind when he dumped her in public and was more concerned about his job than the impending war her family is facing.

So basically they’re both so in the right and so in the wrong

http://ikkinthekitsune.tumblr.com/post/62968793760/emotional-intelligence-and-korras-spirituality

No one in this fandom, I suspect, would ever claim that Korra is not an emotional character. She’s clearly driven by her emotions, and is much more likely to act based on feeling and intuition than based on logic and evidence.

Here’s the thing, though — unlike the traditional female “emotional core” of a team, Korra’s never really had much of an ability to understand or manage her emotions. She isn’t like Katara, who might lose control of her emotions sometimes, but is generally capable of articulating what she feels — Korra reacts to the experience of her emotions more than the underlying cause, and much of the time she doesn’t even recognize what the cause is.

What Korra lacks is emotional intelligence — the ability to recognize, utilize, and manage emotions in herself and others. And this, I think, is at the heart of her issues with spirituality, given that the Avatarverse’s version of spirituality seems largely focused on self-knowledge and enlightenment.

From the first time we see her as a teenager, Korra demonstrates a rather thorough inability to consider why other people might not be happy with the way she behaves or how they might react to it. When the OWL panel seems unimpressed during her firebending test, she’s both confused at their reaction and seemingly unable to recognize the implication that they might choose not to let her pass. We see similar issues later in the episode, with the meat vendor, with the Equalist protestor, and especially with the metalbender cops, who she thinks ought to be grateful in spite of the fact that she did thousands of dollars of damage to catch a few criminals.

This is, of course, something at which she improves over the course of the season. Korra’s a very empathetic person, as long as the effects of her behavior are apparent, and she wants others to be happy, so she modifies her behavior to be more socially acceptable as quickly as she can. She might accuse Mako of being a criminal without thinking, but she apologizes immediately, and she doesn’t make that sort of mistake again.

In fact, it’s Korra’s ability to recognize her own emotions that seems to trip her up the most. The best example of this, of course, is A Voice in the Night, where Korra’s inability to deal with her fear causes all manner of issues. It’s only at the end of the episode, after she’s been rendered more helpless and terrified than she’s ever been in her life, that she’s even able to understand what she’s feeling and confront that.

The root of this problem, of course, is Korra’s heavy reliance on defense mechanisms, and her tendency to place those defense mechanisms between herself and her emotions. She can’t recognize her fear until the protective layer of anger and violence have been removed; likewise, she can’t access her grief at the loss of her bending until she abandons her last desperate attempts to regain agency by pursuing nothingness (in one way or another).

This particular issue is, in a lot of ways, the major internal conflict Korra deals with over the course of Book 1. And, to Korra’s credit, by the time Aang appears to her on the cliff, she’s at least managed to disable the automatic defense mechanisms enough to access the feelings underneath.

Unfortunately, after doing that, Korra’s other habit of subordinating her own emotions to her duty and what’s expected of her, most likely learned from years of justifying her own isolation and constant training, served only to compound the problem. As of Book 2, she seems desperate to have her own feelings validated, hence her relationship with Mako having the issues it did in Rebel Spirit, and she has a tendency to ignore feelings when they aren’t validated, especially when it comes to Unalaq’s behavior.

…and, of course, when her feelings cause too much confusion, she seems inclined to willingly fall back on those old defense mechanisms, not as an automatic reaction, but as the only choice she knows how to make. Her attack on Judge Hotah, for instance, wasn’t her first instinct, but a choice she made only after her mother’s grief allowed her to process her own feelings of helplessness… even if the end result was very similar to what she might have done earlier.

Overall, I suspect these are the sorts of issues that will be dealt with throughout this season, since Korra’s spirituality is supposedly intended to come to the fore. It’ll be interesting to see how that happens… and, perhaps, instructive (particularly to those who, like myself, tend to be somewhat like Korra as far as emotions are concerned!).

 

[Shademp]

The primary thing I dislike about Book 2, is hearing the reception it gets. I want to listen to Nostalgia Critic's vlogs, but every time it's 90% nag nag nag nag. Justified or not, it's just not fun. I liked episode six, but I am convinced that most other people hate it for one reason or another. I better stay away from responses to the remaining episodes if I can.

When it was The Last Airbender, you knew you were part of something that everyone enjoyed. There was a sense of community from that and I thought we'd be getting it with Book 2 of Korra as well. But nope, I just have to watch each episode and try my best to ignore what much of the internet thinks. Just goes to show how much the opinions of others matter and affect you.

 

[Theozilla]

The newest episodes Beginnings was an amazing episode all around. It was fascinating to learn about the first Avatar and the time period of that era. The spirit designs were amazing (loved all of the Spirited Away and Princess Mononoke shout outs and thematic similarities). The ending almost surprised me, I was either expecting Vaatu to be sealed (what actually happened) or reconnected/fused with Raava and then both of them would integrate/fuse with Wan to become the Avatar (which is fine that it didn’t happen that way).

One thing I am a little unclear is this: Did the final battle actually take place in the Spirit world or not? Because if did take place in the spirit world shouldn’t bending not have been able to work? Or was the location of the battle an in-between type of location, like was Raava’s statement ”at the place where the two worlds meet” meant to be interpreted as a location that is distinct from both the human world and spirit world? If it isn’t, and the battle did take place in the Spirit World did the “not being able to bend” nature of it come into place only after (and perhaps because of) Raava+Wan’s battle with Vaatu? Or perhaps its more of one can't bend in the Spirit World if they are only there spirit form like when Aang went there, but his body stayed in the physical world. Whereas in this case, Wan actually physically body and spirit walked into the spirit world. Perhaps both body and spirit need to be present for Bending to work. Some food for thought, I guess.

Also I guess the nature of the Avatar reincarnation cycle was clarified to mean this?: that the different Avatars in history are not actually distinct new souls being added to the Avatar Spirit but are rather Wan’s soul (with Raava of course) reincarnating just into a new identity but it is still Wan’s original soul. I think this is the correct interpretation of Raava’s “we will be together for all of your lifetimes” statement to Wan.

On to speculation now…

So the alternative potential ending I had speculated on while watching the episode is also one of my speculations of what Unalaq’s potential motives might be. That Unalaq might want to free Vaatu in order to reconnect/recombine him with Raava+Korra in order to create a truly balanced Avatar, perhaps changing the nature of the Avatar from a benign being to actual completely neutral being? (equal parts light and dark?). I actually kinda hope this might end up being the case whether or not it is Unalaq’s motive as I think it could be an interesting dynamic to explore.

While I do think the idea of Unalaq wanting to free Vaatu to become (or have Desna and/or Eska become) an dark/anti-Avatar is also a viable theory, I’m not so sure it fits with his character as well; as Unalaq has been pretty adamant in saying that dark spirits are bad (which is something Vaatu likes) so I don’t think Vaatu holding the balance of power (controlled or not) is in Unalaq’s interests.

 

[Shademp]

Feels great to finally have seen Beginnings. I was unaware that both episodes would be available at the same time. A pleasant surprise, indeed. This is what I have been looking forward to since the trailers.

SPOILERS!

@Theozilla

I like your theory that Unalaq's intention is to combine Vaatu's spirit with the Avatar. It would certainly make sense of Unalaq's claim that he thinks Korra will become the greatest Avatar ever. In Unalaq's mind, neutrality means optimal diplomacy, which would form perfect balance.


I think it was ballsy and wonderfully bitter that Wan actually "failed" in the end. The world torn apart by war (and fire, of course) and Wan's legacy not being to have created a peaceful human world. Sealing away Vaatu and returning the spirits to their world was his crowning achievement.

These two episodes have forever changed how we will now view the Avatar state. Certainly, I speculated that the essence of the Avatar was a spirit. But now we actually have a name for it: Raava. Whenever I see the Avatar state, I now think "that's Raava". I don't mind this at all but it's still worth noting that by now having this origin story, the way we see this world has changed.


- The fire priestess said that she's been raising the air bisons since the hundred-year war. I wonder if she means that she raised them in secret while the war was still going on. Seems a bit farfetched that such a big secret would be kept. But if the survival of the bisons is bogged down to a secret air bison farm in the fire nation, I guess I have to roll with that.

- I really like how the Wan-Vaatu fight feels like a parallell with the Aang-Ozai fight. Both are huge and epic. As far as stakes go, the Wan-Vaatu fight is greater, but the emotional investment in The Last Airbender evens everything out so that the impact of the Aang-Ozai fight is not diminished or ridiculed in comparison to Wan-Vaatu. They are epic in their own ways. Love it.

- "I lived ten thousand lifetimes before the first of your kind crawled out of the mud." -Vaatu
I guess they are going for the "made from dirt" creation story for humans. But there is nothing ambiguity that humans could have risen from natural evolution even in this fantasy universe.

- Having some trouble making out what Vaatu is saying after this.
'It was I who broke through, and I, then separated the plane of spirits from the material world!'
The middle part of the sentence sounds awkward in my head or maybe I'm just hearing it wrong. I can't make out what he says. Plus it sounds like he says "playing" and not "plane". There is too much other noise going on. Gah, this sentence frustrates me.


- The way the final frame stays on the forest island turn my thoughts to the lion turtles, which I think was intended. Are we just meant to remember the lion turtles or is this a hint that they will make another appearance before this season is over? Time will tell.

 

[Theozilla]

- The fire priestess said that she's been raising the air bisons since the hundred-year war. I wonder if she means that she raised them in secret while the war was still going on. Seems a bit farfetched that such a big secret would be kept. But if the survival of the bisons is bogged down to a secret air bison farm in the fire nation, I guess I have to roll with that.

Yeah the fire sage's lines was a little unclear in the time frame, like did she mean since the beginning/middle of the war or that they've kept them since the war ended.

- "I lived ten thousand lifetimes before the first of your kind crawled out of the mud." -Vaatu
I guess they are going for the "made from dirt" creation story for humans. But there is nothing ambiguity that humans could have risen from natural evolution even in this fantasy universe.

Wait, are you saying you think that line implies that humans didn't evolve in the Avatar-verse or it does? Because I feel like it does implies evolution occurring (crawling out of the mud equivalent to fish crawling out the water). Either way I don't think it means much.

 

[Shademp]

- I also like how Wan's bending journey is similar to Aang's. Wan had one year to master the remaining three elements, while Aang had about 6-8 months from what I gather. Wan had slightly more time, but still, it's a nice parallell.



- When the original series said that animals and the moon "taught" humans how to bend the elements, I always thought that they both granted the elemental abilities and taught the humans how to refine their skills. There was the unknown of just "how" the ability was granted, but I always accepted that hole.

Now with the knowledge that lion turtles granted bending, albeit with the intention of this gift being temporary, I'm slightly confused. Do all benders originate from those who received the gift from the lion turtles, but then did not give it back by the time lion turtles left? Or did benders originate separately, in for example the Sun Warrior civilization?

Then again, rewatching bits from The Last Airbender, Toph refers to the "source of bending" and "the original benders" (Ep.53, The Firebending Masters). The "source" makes it sound like bending abilities came from the badger moles, not that they were merely teachers.

"The first people to learn from the dragons were the ancient sun warriors." - Zuko (aforementioned episode)

Wan does not seem to be a sun warrior, so he was not the first to become better at firebending while hanging out with dragons.


Rewatching "The Cave of Two Lovers" we have an explicit statement.

"The two lovers learned earth bending from the badger moles. They became the first earth benders." So the lion turtles are not the original source of elemental bending in humans.

Wait, are you saying you think that line implies that humans didn't evolve in the Avatar-verse or it does? Because I feel like it does implies evolution occurring (crawling out of the mud equivalent to fish crawling out the water). Either way I don't think it means much.

My instant reaction was that he meant humans came from mud, made from mud, out of the mud. But you're probably right, the line doesn't mean much.

 

[Theozilla]

- I also like how Wan's bending journey is similar to Aang's. Wan had one year to master the remaining three elements, while Aang had about 6-8 months from what I gather. Wan had slightly more time, but still, it's a nice parallell.

When the original series said that animals and the moon "taught" humans how to bend the elements, I always thought that they both granted the elemental abilities and taught the humans how to refine their skills. There was the unknown of just "how" the ability was granted, but I always accepted that hole.

Now with the knowledge that lion turtles granted bending, albeit with the intention of this gift being temporary, I'm slightly confused. Do all benders originate from those who received the gift from the lion turtles, but then did not give it back by the time lion turtles left? Or did benders originate separately, in for example the Sun Warrior civilization?

Then again, rewatching bits from The Last Airbender, Toph refers to the "source of bending" and "the original benders" (Ep.53, The Firebending Masters). The "source" makes it sound like bending abilities came from the badger moles, not that they were merely teachers.

"The first people to learn from the dragons were the ancient sun warriors." - Zuko (aforementioned episode)

Wan does not seem to be a sun warrior, so he was not the first to become better at firebending while hanging out with dragons.


Rewatching "The Cave of Two Lovers" we have an explicit statement.

"The two lovers learned earth bending from the badger moles. They became the first earth benders." So the lion turtles are not the original source of elemental bending in humans.

Aang had about 9 months to master the elements (3 months for each Book/season)

As for the bending origin confusion, this is the explanation:
http://theozilla.tumblr.com/post/64450678787/clearing-up-bending-origin-confusion#tumblr_notes

Okay, so the lion turtles gave people bending. When it was no longer required for people to give the bending back, bending became a genetic trait. How people learned to master bending was from the sky bison, dragons, badger moles, and the moon. Remember how Wan’s firebending was more fluid and powerful than the townspeople’s? That’s because he trained with a dragon. Another example: somewhere in the Beifong family lies the earthbending trait, which Toph had. She learned how to become a master earth bender from the badger moles, but somewhere in her ancestry was a person who was given earthbending by a lion turtle.

http://theozilla.tumblr.com/post/64451959548/im-still-confused
Even Bill Rinaldi (Martial Arts Coordinator/Videographer/Production Coordinator/Doorman for the show) confirms this explanation

Was it the lion turtles that gave people bending then the ocean/moon, dragon, sky bison, and badger moles that taught them how to master it because I thought oma and shu were the first earth benders and whatever… I DONT UNDERSTAMD I WANT A HISTORY LESSON!!!


That episode was too beautiful tho…

I believe that it was like how Wan learned advanced firebending with the dragon. Before that it wasn’t really martial arts influenced as much, as you saw the hunters just tossing the fire like a baseball basically.

 

[Lex]

^Well yes that's what I took from it too, and I think they were careful to show Wan "learning" how to properly bend fire with the dragon.

My interpretation of it would have been - (not taking into account the quotes I've now read) that the lion turtles granted this power to humans, but them having the power didn't actually make them benders. The people who had the power became "true" benders by learning how to move each element properly from it's natural source - dragons, badger moles, sky bison, moon.

This raises a question for me that has maybe already been answered, but at the end of ATLA, what is the interaction between Aang and the Lion Turtle? Does it physically give him the (new) power to remove Ozai's bending, or does it simply answer his question about what must be done and then allow him to kind of work out how to do it?

How many lion turtles are there? They mentioned 12, so do each of these have their own unique abilities? Or are there maybe 3 in existence for each element when this is mentioned? If the lion turtle that Aang spoke to is one of these, does it logically follow that all the lion turtles would be able to impart the ability to remove bending? Or did Aang speak to a special one? Or is "bending removal" an ability unique to this one lion turtle just as others would have their own unique abilities?

Are all the lion turtles still around? Armed with this knowledge, if I was a non-bender living in that world I'd be off the find the nearest one and beg him to give me an element. One does say near the end "We will no longer give the power of the elements to humans" but what's to stop a person from popping over and pleading their case?

Anyway, these episodes restored my faith in the series if I'm honest. I loved them so much and I'm going to watch them again today <3, I'm so excited and happy that we have a full and awesome origin story for the avatar, and I liked everything about it.

 

[Theozilla]

The Lion Turtle Aang met gave him the ability of Energybending in the same way the Lion Turtles gave people the power of bending (which is what energybending is in of itself). Though Avatar energybending is probably more limited than Lion turtle energybending (like they can only take and restore bending to those who originally possessed it, not actually grant it) because I think if Aang knew that he could give bending to nonbenders he would made some more airbenders with it. Nothing else is really known about Lion Turtles, they are ancient beasts.

 

[Lex]

Then I'm super excited about the rest of the series possibly exploring this

 

[ForceStealer]

Yeah that episode was phenomenal. And some really unbelievable action animation for just being in mid-season. I loved how the whole thing taking place in Wan's time was a completely different (and gorgeous) art/animation style. Some serious Aladdin vibes at first, but they managed to move away from that pretty quickly - and delve right into Princess Mononoke, actually.

Also I'm a giant sucker for recurring themes, motifs, etc. So hearing the Avatar theme during the conclusion of the battle made me very happy. This is, without contest, the best piece of Avatar media since Sozin's Comet, and the first time I have found the Legend of Korra to be on par with the original.

Or perhaps its more of one can't bend in the Spirit World if they are only there spirit form like when Aang went there, but his body stayed in the physical world. Whereas in this case, Wan actually physically body and spirit walked into the spirit world. Perhaps both body and spirit need to be present for Bending to work.

That one makes the most sense to me.

Also I guess the nature of the Avatar reincarnation cycle was clarified to mean this?: that the different Avatars in history are not actually distinct new souls being added to the Avatar Spirit but are rather Wan&#8217;s soul (with Raava of course) reincarnating just into a new identity but it is still Wan&#8217;s original soul. I think this is the correct interpretation of Raava&#8217;s &#8220;we will be together for all of your lifetimes&#8221; statement to Wan.

That's what reincarnation is. You don't add new souls, it's just yours over and over again, but who and what you are will mean you don't act and think the same.

Yeah the fire sage's lines was a little unclear in the time frame, like did she mean since the beginning/middle of the war or that they've kept them since the war ended.

...I figured since the war ended.

I think it was ballsy and wonderfully bitter that Wan actually "failed" in the end. The world torn apart by war (and fire, of course) and Wan's legacy not being to have created a peaceful human world. Sealing away Vaatu and returning the spirits to their world was his crowning achievement.

Well, not to diminish the episode or anything...but of course he failed. We still have wars and the Avatar, don't we?

These two episodes have forever changed how we will now view the Avatar state. Certainly, I speculated that the essence of the Avatar was a spirit. But now we actually have a name for it: Raava. Whenever I see the Avatar state, I now think "that's Raava". I don't mind this at all but it's still worth noting that by now having this origin story, the way we see this world has changed.

It was always a spirit, wasn't it? I thought the Avatar spirit was the spirit of the planet or some such. But either way, the Avatar State isn't Raava. It's what it has always been described as - the power of all the Avatar's past lives - which were that of a human fused with Raava.

^Well yes that's what I took from it too, and I think they were careful to show Wan "learning" how to properly bend fire with the dragon.

My interpretation of it would have been - (not taking into account the quotes I've now read) that the lion turtles granted this power to humans, but them having the power didn't actually make them benders. The people who had the power became "true" benders by learning how to move each element properly from it's natural source - dragons, badger moles, sky bison, moon.

I agree, that's what I took from the episode too while watching it. Although one difference was that it didn't seem to me that ANYONE but Wan had any elemental powers with the lion turtles left. They said they weren't giving anyone powers. I figured that the only way people learned bending from then on were from the animals as we were told previously.

But, really, LoK has kind of confused me about the whole benders/nonbenders thing. Before Korra I didn't take it as some kind of genetic thing. I thought it was just a skill, aided or hampered by innate talent, certainly, but still something anyone could do with extraordinary devotion and will. The idea that you're just born with it was always kind of a weird idea to me. (I never liked that Korra could apparently just bend three elements out of the womb, either.)

 

[Theozilla]

I agree, that's what I took from the episode too while watching it. Although one difference was that it didn't seem to me that ANYONE but Wan had any elemental powers with the lion turtles left. They said they weren't giving anyone powers. I figured that the only way people learned bending from then on were from the animals as we were told previously.

But, really, LoK has kind of confused me about the whole benders/nonbenders thing. Before Korra I didn't take it as some kind of genetic thing. I thought it was just a skill, aided or hampered by innate talent, certainly, but still something anyone could do with extraordinary devotion and will. The idea that you're just born with it was always kind of a weird idea to me. (I never liked that Korra could apparently just bend three elements out of the womb, either.)

But bending even in ATLA was genetic, it's why Aang being the last airbender was so significant, and why if the Air Nomads had been wiped out the cycle could have been broken. And all future airbenders will be coming from his bloodline.
And people besides Wan still had bending at the end of Beginings, the show implied that people (besides Wan's friends) were receiving bending permanently from the Lion turtles in order live in the wilds. The power of the elements could only come from the Lion turtles, the bending animals+moon & ocean are what taught people turn the power into the bending forms.

http://theozilla.tumblr.com/post/64451959548/im-still-confused
Even Bill Rinaldi (Martial Arts Coordinator/Videographer/Production Coordinator/Doorman for the show) confirms this explanation

Was it the lion turtles that gave people bending then the ocean/moon, dragon, sky bison, and badger moles that taught them how to master it because I thought oma and shu were the first earth benders and whatever&#8230; I DONT UNDERSTAMD I WANT A HISTORY LESSON!!!


That episode was too beautiful tho&#8230;

I believe that it was like how Wan learned advanced firebending with the dragon. Before that it wasn&#8217;t really martial arts influenced as much, as you saw the hunters just tossing the fire like a baseball basically.

 

[ForceStealer]

But bending even in ATLA was genetic, it's why Aang being the last airbender was so significant, and why if the Air Nomads had been wiped out the cycle could have been broken. And all future airbenders are will be coming from his bloodline.

Well that's a good point. Maybe I took it as anyone in a given nation could learn to bend their element if they had the time/desire too. Obviously that's the not the case, but the idea of them being a distinct class of people surprised me.

 

[Theozilla]

That's what reincarnation is. You don't add new souls, it's just yours over and over again, but who and what you are will mean you don't act and think the same.

Well I wasn't sure before because I thought that maybe new souls were getting added because they said the Avatar State gets stronger with each reincarnation. But I suppose it's just added power/experience going onto one soul rather than a multitude of souls.
Basically I was dealing with a clash of Eastern and Western notions of the self. From the Western perspective, the individual is fundamental, and the differing personalities of the Avatar would make them different people. From the Eastern perspective, the self in an illusion that blinds us to the interconnection of all things. Reincarnation does not assume a continuity of personality - especially as each lifetime demands different lessons be learned.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Seeing your comments I''m so much interested and optimistic on LoK!

I hate that the internet tends to attack every episode and I don't like seeing the series like that. I think LoK isn't made to be episodic like ATLA so I'll wait for the end of Season 2 to properly give opinions.

 

[AvecAloes]

Yes, yes these two episodes were epic.

(I never liked that Korra could apparently just bend three elements out of the womb, either.)

I know that they showed her bending three elements at a young age, was it stated that she knew them all right off the bat, or had people teaching her? I honestly don't remember...But if bending is genetic, wouldn't that mean that she'd only know water bending straight away?

Anyway. I also really liked seeing the martial arts inspired bending in the origin story, as opposed to the kick boxing style of bending that it has largely become since the start of Korra. I think I prefer that style of bending. It's so much more fluid and seems to speak more of the elements themselves than the clunkier kick boxing stuff. (It's late, don't mind my stupid sounding post right now)

I am so glad that these two episodes exist, and that they came out now, because I was really feeling rather "eh" about this season. I've quickly grown weary of Korra's apparent back pedaling as a character, and all of her whiny entitled rash crap was really getting on my nerves. In fact, in the episode before these two, I didn't even realize until the episode was over that she had largely been absent from it. The plot with Mako and Asami was intriguing, and the two of them are much more tolerable to watch. But now they've set the bar really high for the remainder of the season. If Korra doesn't have a serious adjustment of attitude, I will be sorely disappointed. And go back and just rewatch Avatar: TLA.

 

[ForceStealer]

Anyway. I also really liked seeing the martial arts inspired bending in the origin story, as opposed to the kick boxing style of bending that it has largely become since the start of Korra. I think I prefer that style of bending. It's so much more fluid and seems to speak more of the elements themselves than the clunkier kick boxing stuff. (It's late, don't mind my stupid sounding post right now)

Definitely. It was also nice to see the people that received air powers were using them for a peaceful purpose. As air has been kind used exclusively force lately (except Tenzin) when before it was mostly exemplified for it's dodging ability. Of course the air can become a very powerful force, it always seemed to take Aang much more effort and when he was particularly pissed off. ...Which I suppose Korra frequently is

 

[Theozilla]

Yes, yes these two episodes were epic.



I know that they showed her bending three elements at a young age, was it stated that she knew them all right off the bat, or had people teaching her? I honestly don't remember...But if bending is genetic, wouldn't that mean that she'd only know water bending straight away?.

Korra bending three elements as a toddler/kid is how the White Lotus found out she was the Avatar, she had no teachers prior to that. And genetics don't really apply to you when your the Avatar, it only determines if the Avatar will be born into your tribe/nation/kingdom/etc. or not.