Character Battle QF4: Tifa vs Fang

[Max Payne]

well

if your primary occupation for the longest was fighting, and you haven't done that in a while, you'd be out of practise

it's a common phrase

but you continue the sarcasm bro it's flattering

 

[Roger]

well

if your primary occupation for the longest was fighting, and you haven't done that in a while, you'd be out of practise

It wasn't. Tifa was a barkeeper, she did not regularly go on AVALANCHE missions, Cloud called her out on this. She was also a practitioner of the martial arts, and I don't get why people think she's stopped in AC.

 

[Max Payne]

It wasn't. Tifa was a barkeeper, she did not regularly go on AVALANCHE missions, Cloud called her out on this. She was also a practitioner of the martial arts, and I don't get why people think she's stopped in AC.

She didn't go on many missions when Cloud showed up, but she clearly had done so before. Barret had her going on fucking undercover missions into enemy territory. He wouldn't have put her at risk doing shit unless she had experience in the field.

Hell he wouldn't have let her go on the bombing mission at all if she wasn't experienced, and Case of Tifa implies that she was an active agent of Avalanche for quite a while, enough for her to feel guilty.

Also, in FF7 her primary occupation WAS fighting, like all of Avalanche. She was in the field, under fire. Fighting alongside her friends and shit. That's what I'm talking about.

What's been said here has been elaborated on a great deal and I honestly don't see what is left to not understand.

 

[penandpaper]

Okay, again Denzel, Marlene and Cloud are not freaking infants, Cloud isn't even home most of the time and Denzel is very recent addition and healthy enough to make a point that he more then carries his weight around Seventh Heaven since he's been there. And by running the second business you mean answering the telephone and leave notes for the guy that actually runs the second business.

To be fair, the kids may not be infants, but they aren't old enough to really be caring for themselves either. They're portrayed as being surprisingly mature for their ages, presumably because of all they've been through, but they are still very young and taking care of two young children, especially when one is very ill, is ton of work. That, in itself, is a full time job.

On top of that, she's also owns her bar and isn't just running it. Just because the bar is closed doesn't mean her work is done for the day. There are a lot of duties to be done to keep things functional and make sure she's ready for the next day. That's not even counting the other duties that she's also juggling, like managing finances for both her business, Cloud's business, and for the household in general and all the other duties that come attached to maintaining a home.

And Cloud is home. He's only away for long stretches at particular times, when the guilt catches up with him. Otherwise I believe Case of Tifa says that Cloud was there every morning and back each night.

Now, I still think that she was still at least keeping in fighting shape during this time, but I don't really think it's fair to imply that she doesn't have a lot going on at the time. If she's training then it's in addition to what already is a lot to deal with.

Again though, I don't think that she'd allow herself to fall too far out of practice for her family's sake and safety, but I doubt that she's at the same level she was at in FFVII when, no matter what she'd done prior to the start of the game, she was fighting every day as they traveled. I think she states as much during Cloud's fight with Kadaj (Edit: That the strength they'd all had at that time was gone or something like that. I might need to go rewatch the movie. Please correct me if I'm wrong.).

 

[Joker]

LOI SA ID STROP IT GOPS DAMNIT

 

[Zee]

i didn't bother to read any of this because fang is the big gay homo flirt who should have more votes

oerba tribe out

 

[Sheva Alomar]

ilu Leora

 

[Max Payne]

faggots

 

[Zee]

breeder

 

[Max Payne]

ew babies gtfo

 

[Zee]

on that, we can agree

 

[Roger]

but I don't really think it's fair to imply that she doesn't have a lot going on at the time. If she's training then it's in addition to what already is a lot to deal with.

A lot going on, yes. INCREDIBLY busy and hectic is, I think, overstating it by a big margin. In AC, she finds time to just randomly take off, let Denzel mind the phone and the bar from his bed, travel to Midgar with Marlene and visit Aerith's church on a whim. That tells me she does find free time during the day.

(Edit: That the strength they'd all had at that time was gone or something like that. I might need to go rewatch the movie. Please correct me if I'm wrong.).

She said, we, and that prior to all this it applied to Cloud as well. But Cloud never stopped travelling around beating up monsters, Yuffie certainly didn't give up being a ninja like her father and her people, Cait Sith most definitely is no more or less a robot specifically designed for spying and combat then it was during FFVII. Barret ultimately decided to just get an even bigger, more powerful gun, Vincent, I don't see slacking off either. Cid, we don't know why or how he fond time to become a accomplished dragoon in addition to being trained every single form of aviation imaginable (that I feel, would constitute a busy life) to begin with, no reason to believe he changed, So you tell me how it applies to all of them in any literal sense.

 

[Max Payne]

That wasn't random at all.

She did that because she was worried about Cloud's well being. It was hardly "oh a whim".

People take time off of work to look after their families all the time, she's no different.

 

[penandpaper]

A lot going on, yes. INCREDIBLY busy and hectic is, I think, overstating it by a big margin. In AC, she finds time to just randomly take off, let Denzel mind the phone and the bar from his bed, travel to Midgar with Marlene and visit Aerith's church on a whim. That tells me she does find free time during the day.

Closing the bar for a day to go remember an old friend, especially when she was worrying about all that was happening is hardly the same as indicating that she had a lot of free time. As it was, in Case of Tifa, she indicates a desire to close the bar for one day anyway to have family time, which didn't work out as she'd hoped since Cloud was becoming increasingly more distant, so the one day off thing was always a viable option. It's not really indicative of having a lot of free time, but of taking a day off. If she was indicated in any materials to be doing this frequently, then you'd have a point, but once on what is likely the "family time" day doesn't really indicate that she has a lot of free time. It indicates that she's doing well enough money wise to be able to afford to close the bar for a day for time with her children.

There's no indication that Denzel was minding the bar because, unless I'm recalling incorrectly, it's never indicated to be open that day. When is Denzel shown running the bar? I could be remembering incorrectly, but I don't remember any scene in which he's shown running an open bar.

She said, we, and that prior to all this it applied to Cloud as well. But Cloud never stopped travelling around beating up monsters, Yuffie certainly didn't give up being a ninja like her father and her people, Cait Sith most definitely is no more or less a robot specifically designed for spying and combat then it was during FFVII. Barret ultimately decided to just get an even bigger, more powerful gun, Vincent, I don't see slacking off either. Cid, we don't know why or how he fond time to become a accomplished dragoon in addition to being trained every single form of aviation imaginable (that I feel, would constitute a busy life) to begin with, no reason to believe he changed, So you tell me how it applies to all of them in any literal sense.

Yet none of them protest her claim, so perhaps they realized that she had a point. That they weren't as they'd been when they last all fought together. Barret actually backs down from wanting to join in after her comment, so perhaps, big gun or not, he realized that he wasn't as he'd been. I don't think any of them would have stopped keeping themselves in shape, but there's a difference between fighting seriously every day and practicing to make sure you can still fight.

I do think Tifa practices still (That she'd make the time if necessary to maintain her skills to protect her family.) and that she remains a talented fighter. I can't see any reason why she'd stop and I can see a lot of reasons why she wouldn't, but that doesn't mean that she's the same as she'd been two years prior when they were fighting constantly.

 

[Roger]

She did that because she was worried about Cloud's well being. It was hardly "oh a whim".

She didn't know Cloud was staying there. Hence her surprise and the line "Does Cloud live here?!" And she had just sent Cloud to run errants for Reno, she did not expect to find him there.

but there's a difference between fighting seriously every day and practicing to make sure you can still fight.

And there's a difference between that and "out of practice, basically just a civilian" too.

 

[Max Payne]

She didn't know Cloud was staying there. Hence her surprise and the line "Does Cloud live here?!" And she had just sent Cloud to run errants for Reno, she did not expect to find him there.

That is why she went looking for him. Jesus christ.

And there's a difference between that and "out of practice, basically just a civilian" too.

I don't even fucking know what you're arguing anymore.

The woman is a veteran fighter of a war against Shinra and Sephiroth, she hadn't been fighting anyone for two fucking years. That's being out of practise.

Keep arguing your semantics. Practising your fucking fighting skills is not the same as being in the goddamn thick of hard battles every day and it's not going to keep you tempered.

 

[penandpaper]

And there's a difference between that and "out of practice, basically just a civilian" too.

Depends on how you define civilian. Civilian doesn't default to meaning that you can't fight at all, but that you aren't part of a particular official organization usually.

Tifa is a civilian and she can still be out of practice without assuming that she stopped training altogether.

She can be both and not be completely unable to fight. She's still indicated to be an impressive fighter, just not as she was during FFVII.

 

[Zee]

gay gay lesbian gay boobies

 

[penandpaper]

That is why she went looking for him. Jesus christ.

I'm sorry for taking us any further off topic, but I just wanted to respond to this whole "Tifa's motivation for going to the church" thing. Analyzing Tifa's motivations is very relevant to my interests because I do find her to be a fascinating character (Hence why I voted for her. See, I managed to connect this post back to the initial topic. ). If I'm going too far, then I'm sorry. In that case, please just tell me to drop it and I will.

Anyway, I never really thought that Tifa's initial motivation in going to the church was to find Cloud. She seemed honestly surprised to find out that he'd been staying there and it isn't as though she'd spent the early part of the movie searching for him nor demanding that he come home (Instead she seemed to be trying to give him his space, but finding out about Cloud having Geostigma seemed to change her mind.), so why would she decide to spend her day off looking for him, especially when she had Marlene with her? Presumably if she intended to find Cloud, she intended some sort of confrontation, even if she'd only planned on a small one. Given that Case of Tifa shows us Tifa finding out just how that kind of thing affects Marlene ("No matter what feelings Cloud and I have between us, we can’t drag Marlene into it, Tifa thought to herself."), I just have my doubts that she'd take Marlene with her if her plan was to go find him.

I... honestly thought that she'd gone there to remember/pay her respects to Aerith, something that she might include Marlene in given that Marlene had her own bond with Aerith and might well want to be included in this visit. I think that it's very possible that Tifa's concern and confusion over what was going on with Cloud (There's no doubt that she was clearly very worried about him, even before finding out about the Geostigma.) spurred Tifa to want to visit for some semblance of comfort and perhaps a peaceful place to think, but I just never thought that she went there looking for him. She happened to find him there and then when she realized just how bad things had gotten, she decides in the end that she needs to do something to deal with this (I suppose that it would have to be done at this point even with Marlene there since there was nowhere else for her to go and Marlene herself refuses to leave because she wanted to wait for Cloud, unless I'm recalling that incorrectly.), hence her comment to Marlene on giving him a "lecture".

But... I'm probably wrong, so there we go. Just a thought. My apologies if I'm too far off with my interpretation.

 

[AvecAloes]

She knew he found Denzel at the church.

 

[penandpaper]

She knew he found Denzel at the church.

Indeed. And they have a full conversation about him visiting the church in which she tells him that she'd like to go with him next time (“I’m not saying you couldn’t go. But next time, I’ll go with you.&#8221. That doesn't mean that she realized that he might be living there or that he might be there at any hour that she might show up, but it does seem to indicate that she too wanted to visit (I'd assume that she wants to go with Cloud to support him during such a tough time, but I'd also point out that Aerith was her friend too. Why wouldn't she want to pay her respects as well?). It also doesn't explain why she'd involve Marlene in their issues after she decided that they shouldn't do that.

Like I said, it's just a thought.

 

[Unlucky]

Agreeing with Dacon and pen about this Tifa argument.

Personally, with what was presented in CoT, I don't even think she had time to practice at all. I don't see it as a routine she'd include in her daily schedule, given that she had to take care of two businesses, look after her kids and worry about her man. But even so I don't think protecting herself would suddenly become impossible. She'd been a fighter for a long time and that just doesn't evaporate to nothingness even without rigid practice. Although that equally means she may not be as good or sharp as before.

And yes I voted for Tifa because she's an amazing character and I still haven't played XIII Though I have to admit, I have a lady boner for Fang

 

[null]

I can't believe someone thought Tifa being an out-of-practice civilian was worth challenging in the first place.

Barret is black. "No, he's dark skinned. Clearly not the same as being black."

Yeah that's what I mea- "NO, you SAID black."

 

[penandpaper]

I can't believe someone thought Tifa being an out-of-practice civilian was worth challenging in the first place.

Barret is black. "No, he's dark skinned. Clearly not the same as being black."

Yeah that's what I mea- "NO, you SAID black."

To be fair, that seems a bit harsh. Some of the initial posts that sparked the debate made it sound as though it was thought that Tifa might have abandoned the martial arts altogether after FFVII (At least that was the impression that I got from them. Perhaps I misread them.), which is something that I disagreed with too and I don't think that believing that she might have maintained her fighting skills to some extent (How much is obviously debatable, but it's clear that even after two years, she's still a capable fighter and it's worth keeping in mind that muscles do weaken if nothing is done to maintain them.) is that out there.

Differing opinions are good though. Makes the world more interesting.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

lmao, why is this even a competition???
Teef, DUH

@ fight with Loz: Oh wow, Tifa was defeated by a fucking Sephiroth remnant. She's such a fucking weakling. I must have missed the part where the rest of AVALANCHE totally managed to swat them like flies. Oh wait.

Fang is better. Especially if you aren't wearing nostalgia goggles.

Nostalgia goggles have nothing to do with characterization bb. Fang is cool, but objectively she's not much of a character. I don't even think you can really pit them against each other simply because of how integral Tifa is to the story and how well integrated she is into it. Also the fact that she's not a cardboard cut out helps.

Let's just say FFVII employed something called show not tell, which 13 just completely fucking reversed to ridiculous extremes. Especially when it came to characters like Fang/Tifa.

To be fair, that seems a bit harsh. Some of the initial posts that sparked the debate made it sound as though it was thought that Tifa might have abandoned the martial arts altogether after FFVII (At least that was the impression that I got from them. Perhaps I misread them.), which is something that I disagreed with too and I don't think that believing that she might have maintained her fighting skills to some extent

She was shown on screen fighting with her fists, like she's been trained, which itells us she can still use 'em, even if she hasn't been fighting monsters all day, every day. I don't even what's debate....I kinda skimmed, gaiz