E3 2019 Full Trailer with TIFA!

[Kain424]

Materia seems to have a huge variety of purposes. And it may or may not change its own size.

In Advent Children, it seems to absorb into the user. But that doesn't appear to be canon anymore, with very distinct "slots" for materia being seen in the Remake.

As for children playing with it, sure. Since Barret kind of has to be shown how to use it in the original game, I've always assumed materia basically does behave like a marble or stone until someone equips it and can mentally understand it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Materia only merged with the Remnants of Sephiroth in AC cause they're spirits. They're manifestations of Negative Lifestream, so they can pop that materia directly in their bodiesm with no issue.

The only time a person is shown directly merging with materia to equip it is Elfe and it nearly kills her.

Oh and the nutbag AVALANCHE scientist who takes the group over and merges with Zirconaide after fusing with the materia and its needed support materia.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

And Vincent? But I mean your point stands, trying to put materia in your body is very likely to kill you.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yes, I'm sure there exists a huge black market for Materia alone, but except for healing Materia, the rest are used for combat, sooo...

So are weapons like swords and guns, but those shops are everywhere too. And not hidden away either. Kalm's stores have signs advertising what they sell, and Junon's materia shop is right on the main street in Upper Junon.

We aren't talking about hidey holes in the slums or huts in middle-of-nowhere towns -- Kalm is closest to Midgar and populated by many people favorable to Shin-Ra; Junon is the seat of Shin-Ra's military.

Given the prevalence and accessibility of commercial materia -- as well as that Shin-Ra is known to mass produce it and commercializes everything they can -- in the absence of anyone ever suggesting that materia isn't meant to be a legal commercial product, the only conclusion to draw is that it is meant to be.

 

[Kain424]

Been thinking about that triangular slot design on Hardedge. If "All" materia is a thing, and you put it at the middle portion, could you then equip two different kinds of magic and use All attacks for both? Like, I am really cusious as to how materia equipping works now.

 

[OdaDaimyO]

So are weapons like swords and guns, but those shops are everywhere too. And not hidden away either. Kalm's stores have signs advertising what they sell, and Junon's materia shop is right on the main street in Upper Junon.

We aren't talking about hidey holes in the slums or huts in middle-of-nowhere towns -- Kalm is closest to Midgar and populated by many people favorable to Shin-Ra; Junon is the seat of Shin-Ra's military.

Given the prevalence and accessibility of commercial materia -- as well as that Shin-Ra is known to mass produce it and commercializes everything they can -- in the absence of anyone ever suggesting that materia isn't meant to be a legal commercial product, the only conclusion to draw is that it is meant to be.

I'm curious then, how much impact Materia has on the everyday life of people. Besides for combat, is it advertised as tool to make your life easier? Like applainces? Has Shinra monopoly on it? Are shopkeepers needing a lincense to sell it? Hope we get more inside on this.

But there is a much more urgent question: Summon Materia and how the Remake will handle it. Because in the OG, Midgar did not introduce them at all. Choco/Mog was the first Summon we could receive outside of Midgar, on Choco Billy's farm, through "communicating" with one of the Chocobos on the fence. What we know now is that scenario will be only playable at part 2.

We know since the advertised bonus contents that Summons are in the game, but the ones presented, weren't the kind of what people would like to see... what can we expect? A lot of new Summons? Unlikely, the original already graced itself to have one of the most diverse selection of Summons in the series. They are officially guardians, but in comparison with WEAPON, it's not safe to say what they are protecting or for what reason. Are they "ancient materia" like Holy and Meteo? Is there only one exemplar of every summon?

Then I thought about Bahamut and his different incarnations, that are unique to the game. Maybe we get the same treatment for other Summons too? I had a theory there's only one "real" Bahamut and the others are manmade, a part of Shinras own prototyp series you could say. Through the game, in every sector, we encounter one Shin-Ra executive from whom we need to successfully steal an new incarnation of a summon we knew from the OG. With that we could have the same number of summons you would expect from a main title. After the party get captured and inprisoned in the Shin-Ra tower, our Summons will not be obtainable again, otherwise for the upcoming games, the high numbers of Materia would be less manageable.

Been thinking about that triangular slot design on Hardedge. If "All" materia is a thing, and you put it at the middle portion, could you then equip two different kinds of magic and use All attacks for both? Like, I am really cusious as to how materia equipping works now.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I can only see one bridge the Hardedge's slot is showing. And wasn't a bridged triple slot a thing the OG already had? So I would expect/hope the Remake will too!

 

[FFShinra]

The Shinra are implied to have a monopoly in the original game (and in the Compilation, one of the songs is literally Mako Monopoly), and indeed is likely why they are so powerful.

I am going to venture a guess that materia are used for mundane applications as well. A variety of fire materia for the engine, ice materia for coolant systems, I'd not be surprised if the electrical grid transformers all consist of lightning materia or some such. Things like that. In fact, considering they originated as a weapons maker, I'm gonna guess that sort of thing was how they made their money before they realized they could create electrical power on a mass basis.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

See, I think Shinra can manufacture a lot of materia from "mako stones", but there are some naturally occurring materia that they haven't yet figured out how to produce artificially. Such as Enemy Skill.

 

[FFShinra]

Even Summon materia may be beyond them. If only because people like Scarlet think of it as "junk" for some reason.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Titan was junky materia when compared to the Huge Materia that was created from the Fort Condor reactor, Mt. Corel reactor, Nibelheim Reactor and the Junon Reactor.

Mako reactors placed in mako rich locations have potential to create Huge Materia that are far stronger than the usual size and potency used by individuals. Scarlet was looking for materia of that strength so a standard Titan summon materia to be found in the Gongaga reactor would be naturally seen as trash. Probably a result of the Gongaga Reactor being faulty and then shortly exploding.

Summons aren't beyond the scope or capabilities of Shinra. SOLDIER and Turks have been known to be able to synthesize summon materia when necessary. Now some summons are more common than others.

 

[FFShinra]

In the Compilation, which the remake is not really considering beyond minor call backs thus far.....

Also, just because its not a huge materia does it mean it would be classified as junky....unless they didn't know its power or could not make use of it at the least. It is the only type of materia you can't purchase commercially (the Doylist reason being balance of course) and in the original game, there is no evidence that anyone in Shinra uses summons at all.

 

[Makoeyes987]

In the Compilation, which the remake is not really considering beyond minor call backs thus far.....

Nope, that's not true or what the writers said. And if you really think it's likely we won't be fighting summon monsters invoked by enemies in the Remake, thats pretty unlikely given the trend of the writers expanding Summon materia's role in the story.

Also, just because its not a huge materia does it mean it would be classified as junky....unless they didn't know its power or could not make use of it at the least. It is the only type of materia you can't purchase commercially (the Doylist reason being balance of course) and in the original game, there is no evidence that anyone in Shinra uses summons at all.

Scarlet literally says she's looking for "Huge Materia." Materia beyond the level of the type one uses personally. Given the fact materia in general is commonly available, and Shinra regularly produces materia from Mako Reactors, there's no reason to believe she'd somehow be ignorant of summon materia or the level of power contained therein.

The Huge Materia from Mt. Nibel that Shinra collects, is a massive summon materia. It's a summon materia for Bahamut Zero.

All Scarlet reveals is there's simply tiered levels regarding summon materia. Obviously a huge summon materia would be stronger and worth more than just a smaller Titan summon materia.

 

[FFShinra]

I never said we wouldn't fight enemies who use summons. I said the Shinra are not shown from the original game to use summons of any kind, and until it is clarified in a concrete fashion (which it hasn't) that the plot points of the Compilation are making it in, I'm not considering it until I see it for my own eyes. Third party enemies or Sephiroth or Jenova clones or whoever can use summons if they found a summon materia.

But the idea that it is definitively confirmed that Shinra can deliberately manufacture summons in the Remake I disagree with until the game itself proves otherwise.

She is looking for huge materia, so sure summons are not that, but regardless of her comment, it doesn't mean summons are actual junk materia or they'd be on the shelves like all the rest. Also, that Gongaga and Mt. Nibel can both create summon type materia (even if one of them is huge) seems more like chance rather than deliberate processing since, as you say, the importance to the Shinra is whether its huge or not, which has nothing to do with magic type.

 

[Makoeyes987]

So if the Huge Materia created by Shinra's own reactor is not Shinra creating or attempting to use a summon materia in FFVII, along with numerous other examples from Crisis Core and Before Crisis, which all depict SOLDIER and Turks utilizing/acquiring summon materia for use... Then you're simply willfully ignoring evidence in front of your face. Discounting answers to a question already answered.

Genesis uses two different Bahamut materia to attack Zack & Shinra, Sephiroth summons his own Huge Materia to aid him in combat against Zack, Zack himself had summons and was quite aware of their existence. Nothing indicates Summon Materia is new to Shinra. Expecting plot points to somehow be invalidated until confirmed otherwise isn't how this works.

And if Huge Materia were created by sheer chance, why would Scarlet expect the Shinra Mako reactors, including a blown up reactor, to create one? Why would Fort Condor be under constant assault for a Huge Materia that may or may not exist? Why would Shinra create a cannon built specifically to use a Huge Materia as a power source?

Shinra may not be able to control the kind of Huge Materia that's created but why would that imply they're somehow ignorant of summons in the first place? They extract and manipulate mako as a business. Assuming they don't know what it can do is silly.

Seems to me Huge Materia creation is an expected consequence of Mako Reactors. Not a freak occurrence. And a simple Titan summon is junk compared to the power and scale of a Huge Materia. That's not an incorrect assessment at all.

 

[FFShinra]

I have already told you I do not consider the compilation until the remake adds it back in explicitly because comments made by SE on this, while ambivalent, point to them not relying on non-OG material. It is a remake of the original game and only of the original game as far as it is known, and thus I am considering only it in terms of evidence. That was my position from the beginning and it's the last time I'm repeating myself to you.

As for being created by chance, I said SUMMON huge materia is created by chance. It was a comment on the magical nature/type of the materia, not it's density.

As for lack of understanding of Summons, that was just one of two possibilities I mentioned, the other being they can't make use of it, meaning deliberate mass production. It could be either/or or even both. They extract and manipulate mako as a business as you say, and the only products sold from that business are non-Summon types. The types used by the company military itself in the original game are the same way. Someone like Scarlet who prides herself on her weaponry would therefore think summon materia is junk because she can't do anything with it (if its because they can't mass produce it) or because she is ignorant of it (if they are).

Huge Materia is not an expected consequence of all mako reactors. The Midgar Reactors are never mentioned in the gathering of huge materia, nor is any attempt made by Cloud et al to seize them like they do with the others. The creation of huge materia, therefore, seems to be related to the specific type of reactor. That is, the standalone reactors seem to have a compression ability to create huge materia's density, while the Midgar reactors lack this capacity for whatever reason. Maybe its a design thing, maybe its an age thing. But not all reactors create huge materia.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I have already told you I do not consider the compilation until the remake adds it back in explicitly because comments made by SE on this, while ambivalent, point to them not relying on non-OG material. It is a remake of the original game and only of the original game as far as it is known, and thus I am considering only it in terms of evidence. That was my position from the beginning and it's the last time I'm repeating myself to you.

That is not what Square or the writers have said regarding the Compilation of FFVII. So while you may not consider the Compilation or its existence, that's not how anyone else, including the writers, are thinking.

Nomura's latest Famitsu interview literally states "Settings established in the FFVII Compilation works are newly incorporated and the story has been delved more deeply into." That's the position and relevancy of the Compilation. Your view that the Compilation is somehow erased from relevancy in terms of setting and continuity for FFVII unless explicitly shown otherwise, makes no sense. You can think what you like but that doesn't make it comport with reality.

SOLDIER used summons. Turks used summons. Shinra synthesized basic summons materia. That's not unfathomable or some stark contradiction.

As for lack of understanding of Summons, that was just one of two possibilities I mentioned, the other being they can't make use of it, meaning deliberate mass production. It could be either/or or even both. They extract and manipulate mako as a business as you say, and the only products sold from that business are non-Summon types. The types used by the company military itself in the original game are the same way. Someone like Scarlet who prides herself on her weaponry would therefore think summon materia is junk because she can't do anything with it (if its because they can't mass produce it) or because she is ignorant of it (if they are).

Okay, and that's still completely irrelevant and inconsistent with what Shinra's capabilities are. What would make summon materia so incompatible or unusable for Shinra? Why would that type of materia be beyond Shinra, who is shown capable of creating Huge Materia with their technology, manufacturing equipment that boosts the growth of materia, and they are shown interested in excavating and collecting materia? That possibility makes no sense.

Huge Materia is not an expected consequence of all mako reactors. The Midgar Reactors are never mentioned in the gathering of huge materia, nor is any attempt made by Cloud et al to seize them like they do with the others. The creation of huge materia, therefore, seems to be related to the specific type of reactor. That is, the standalone reactors seem to have a compression ability to create huge materia's density, while the Midgar reactors lack this capacity for whatever reason. Maybe its a design thing, maybe its an age thing. But not all reactors create huge materia.

Compare the locations the Mako Reactors that produce Huge Materia, to the location of the Midgar Mako Reactors.

The obvious difference is the environment. Mako Reactors placed at locations rich in life and nature have produced Huge Materia. The Midgar Reactors are pulling mako from barren, dessicated wasteland. There's not much spirit energy left in Midgar, and most likely that doesn't leave much Lifestream to create Huge Materia.

 

[Ite]

Materia is common. People with enough MP to use it? Less common.

 

[OdaDaimyO]

I wish I could add more to this topic . I'm watching your debate in suspense, but every post takes so long, like I'm writing a book. The vocabulary is not there for me... in my head at least (Leo dictionary website ready on my next tab).

@Makoeyes987
What we know from the OG about Summons is that they are creatures from the past that, for whatever reason, crystalized themselves and were only found once in the game... the conclusion would be they are not something you can call as "knowledge" that can be extract from the Lifestream. Furthermore have we not enough information to say anything about, how Materia(lization) works in detail.

I'm contradicting myself here, but maybe to have only one source (Shin-Ra) to attain Summon Materia is, on the long run, a little monotone... but how much possibilities can you have? Summons are mystic, legendary beasts that you would find on locations like, caves, mountains and lonley Islands, where you need to make a detour to find them on hidden tracks, or from a friendly passerby who give you them as a gift...whatever... but you know what I mean, right? But our setting in the first part of the Remake is Midgar only, a modern megacity... that location is not where you expect ancient creatures, waiting to be found. Maybe they expanding the sewers, where we find hidden paths that's leading us to underground tunnels of unknown origin. @FFShinra mentioned Sephiroth or Jenova clones, but I can only see them relevant at the end of part one (if anything at all).

At the moment I can't see any other choice but Shin-Ra, from whom we get enough Summons, that justifies to see this game as main title.

 

[FFShinra]

Nomura's answer, as always, is vague. Until they reconfirm the bit about Shinra and summon materia specifically, it's not evidence of anything. I'm sticking to the OG, as thats what the remake is about. You can keep repeating yourself, and you will not convince me otherwise, so drop it. If you want to convince me based off of just the OG, by all means, do so.

Because they don't use summons in the original game. An obviously good weapon and it is undeployed. They also do not sell it. Either they can't manufacture it at will or they do not understand it. Or they can do both but not profit from it. It can be any number of reasons, and it doesn't necessarily have to be limited to the ones stated. But it is not a given at all that Shinra can mass produce any materia in existance.

Further, materia is about the knowledge of the Ancients. Something simple like fire or steal can possibly be easy enough to isolate and emulate per piece of condensed Mako. But an entire spirit of a near-godlike creature isn't the same thing. Neither is something on the level of Holy, which they would have had access to when they had Aerith and Ifalna in custody or even when they had her in custody later. That they overlooked it (and Hojo seems like the type who would have had Aerith thoroughly searched for "scientific" purposes) would imply they don't understand it. Even Aerith initially didn't (unless she was lying at the time, which is possible).

On the subject of the reactors, do recall that the Condor Reactor's environment is similarly barren. The Nibel mountains also seem relatively barren compared to the nearby Corel range. I don't think it's a case of the environment. The more I think about it, I do think it's a design difference. The Midgar reactors are the only design we know of that is mass produced. Every other reactor in the game is a special snowflake. It could perhaps be a cost cutting measure that whatever process in the reactor would normally create huge materia is not present in a Midgar-type core.

 

[Kain424]

Well, it could very well be that the Nibel mountains are barren because of the reactor. I seem to recall something about it being very old.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Regarding summon materia: My impression -- whether we're talking about the original game alone or the Compilation -- has been that summon materia are extremely rare and essentially form at random whether produced artificially or occurring in nature.

Maybe this isn't the case, and maybe I'm being influenced slightly by Crisis Core in thinking this, but I figure that while Shin-Ra does research into manufacturing different types of materia deliberately -- and probably have made crossroads into it -- they also just let extra mako flow and crystallize in chambers in the reactors (that's what those pods in the Nibel reactor are), then see what they have.

Since summon materia is probably rare, even if it were possible to control for its production, it may be cheaper to crank out mass production of simple Fire, Blizzard or Thunder materia, then sell it at profit.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Nomura's answer, as always, is vague. Until they reconfirm the bit about Shinra and summon materia specifically, it's not evidence of anything. I'm sticking to the OG, as thats what the remake is about. You can keep repeating yourself, and you will not convince me otherwise, so drop it. If you want to convince me based off of just the OG, by all means, do so.

... There is absolutely nothing "vague" about "Settings established in the FFVII Compilation works are newly incorporated and the story has been delved more deeply into."

Unless you have issues understanding plainspoken english, there's no way I can believe you can't understand a straightforward single sentence such as that. There is no ambiguity. "Settings" mean story, scenario, and lore. "Incorporated" means "made part of."

As established in every Compilation title that depicts past Shinra, the setting shows their warriors capable of using summon materia. Only you have an issue accepting what's literally already established fact. If you choose to go flat-Earther in the face of this fact, that's your choice but in the end, that's all it is. There's no real ambiguity or question about what that line means or what's been depicted in past titles regarding Shinra's capabilities of handling summon materia.

Because they don't use summons in the original game. An obviously good weapon and it is undeployed. They also do not sell it. Either they can't manufacture it at will or they do not understand it. Or they can do both but not profit from it. It can be any number of reasons, and it doesn't necessarily have to be limited to the ones stated. But it is not a given at all that Shinra can mass produce any materia in existance.

Guard Scorpions didn't fire missiles or release an EM field in OG FFVII either.

That never happened... Until Crisis Core when it fought Zack. So was the Guard Scorpion broken in the Midgar Reactor in VII when it chose not to use all it's weapons?

No. And here it is now, doing those new skills again.

There are dozens of examples of changes that expand beyond what's shown in the battles of VII. Stop thinking that they're somehow going to limit its scope and capability because of what's shown in the OG, especially when every time since shows otherwise.

Even the Sunken Glenika that was carrying weaponry to fight Sephiroth carried Hades summon materia. Again, you really think Shinra just got lucky in acquiring that materia? Summon Materia may be rarely found or used, but it is used and used by the elite in Shinra.

Further, materia is about the knowledge of the Ancients. Something simple like fire or steal can possibly be easy enough to isolate and emulate per piece of condensed Mako. But an entire spirit of a near-godlike creature isn't the same thing. Neither is something on the level of Holy, which they would have had access to when they had Aerith and Ifalna in custody or even when they had her in custody later. That they overlooked it (and Hojo seems like the type who would have had Aerith thoroughly searched for "scientific" purposes) would imply they don't understand it. Even Aerith initially didn't (unless she was lying at the time, which is possible).

...Where does it say summon materia or summon beasts are all God-like creatures in VII? Summons of the level of Bahamut can be beaten by a SOLDIER 1st Class.

And considering Holy is so small it can hide in Aerith's hair and it is presumed useless by all until she discovers it's purpose in the Forgotten Capital.. Why would anyone think to steal or study it? It's seen as useless junk materia.

On the subject of the reactors, do recall that the Condor Reactor's environment is similarly barren. The Nibel mountains also seem relatively barren compared to the nearby Corel range. I don't think it's a case of the environment. The more I think about it, I do think it's a design difference. The Midgar reactors are the only design we know of that is mass produced. Every other reactor in the game is a special snowflake. It could perhaps be a cost cutting measure that whatever process in the reactor would normally create huge materia is not present in a Midgar-type core.

The land around Condor however isn't nearly as depleted as "the Midgar wastelands." And Mt. Nibel is home to mako fountains where spirit energy naturally wells up from the ground and condenses into materia. Just because the topography is rocky and dark doesn't mean the land is dead. Midgar's land is in a unique state of degradation.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

... There is absolutely nothing "vague" about "Settings established in the FFVII Compilation works are newly incorporated and the story has been delved more deeply into."

What remains vague is which elements are being incorporated.

Unless you have issues understanding plainspoken english, there's no way I can believe you can't understand a straightforward single sentence such as that.

Well, you seem to be having some problems with the wording in the forum rules about insulting other members, so ...

 

[Makoeyes987]

What remains vague is which elements are being incorporated.

Okay, but assuming all elements are out unless..., when nothing implies such sweeping excising of lore, doesn't mean the statement is vague. That's simply obstinance.

Well, you seem to be having some problems with the wording in the forum rules about insulting other members, so ...

What?? What insult?

All I said, was if one chooses to ignore the facts (i.e. flat-Earther), that is their choice. But it doesn't mean there's ambiguity or confusion in that statement on the Compilation's lore. I'm not trying to insult! Im just saying, don't pretend there's a big question when it's not some quote implying the lore and setting from the Compilation is suddenly out the window.

Man, and I didn't even curse...!

 

[FFShinra]

This is a remake of FF7. It is not a remake of the Compilation. And until Nomura clarifies what he means about elements being let in, I'm not going to assume all of it is in because that isn't what he said. As such, because this is a remake of FF7, I am only considering FF7. If information is further clarified, I will take it into consideration, but until then it stays out for me and if you can't respect that and still make your point with the OG alone, then drop the debate. I've asked you multiple times before to do so. You've chosen to make it personal by insulting me (flat earther? really?) instead.

And since you likely still won't drop it, I'm just gonna drop this debate with you instead.