Effeminate Characters

[Cat Rage Room]

Japanese culture has a pretty firm set on youngness, so someone Cid's age is seen (and usually categorized in anime/games/etc) as old. Objectively though, 30 isn't old in the slightest.

Anywho, yeah, I definitely understand (and its true and I try not to forget it) that a degree of vulnerability and softness is desirable in a guy. Women appreciate that. However once again I can't wrap my head around women liking totally effeminate dudes. Is it an issue of them being less threatening or something?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Oops, forgot about Yuffie. And Aerith. But Zack isn't part of the main party of FFVII. So I have no idea why you'd bring him up.

Out of the living party, there are 3 characters in their 20s and 4 in their 30's and up to 50's. That's still not that much young people. It's pretty mature.

 

[Channy]

Yeah but Red XIII is like.. 16 in his race years, but 48 in human years.

So really it's Yuffie, Aerith, Tifa, Cloud > Cid, Vincent, Barret.

Reeve doesn't count because he was a toy in the party.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Yeah, Red XIII is up in the air. So is Cait Sith and Vincent, but I'll let Vincent slide since he does act older than he is.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Uh, Reeve does count because he's the real person, behind the toy. That's Reeve who's controlling and interacting with the party through Cait. And Aerith is dead. We're counting the actual party that's alive. That's 4 older people, and three younger people. And if you want to go by Red XIII's mental maturity instead of his actual age, then that's still just an equal number between young characters, and older characters.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Yeah but, doesn't Cait Sith have his own personality? Reeve himself only comes through every once in a while.

 

[Channy]

Red doesn't count because he has two technical ages. Vincent isn't supposed to age, is he? Because he was in his 20's (25?) when he was sleeping.

And Reeve wasn't ever a part of the actual party, just Cait Sith was. imo he's about as accountable as Aerith is.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Cait's personality comes from Reeve. He controls him and can experience and see what Cait sees. It's his "Inspire" ability. Cait has his mother's accent and it comes from Reeve. Reeve knows all that Cait knows and saying he wasn't there makes no sense since he's the one controlling him and causing him to act the way he does.

Red still is 50 years old. You're only speaking of his mental maturity and its equivalent in human years. But that doesn't change the fact he's 50 years old and carries that much experience and age. Vincent has ceased aging, but again, he's still 50 years old.

 

[Munatik]

I'd go on a Saucer date with Cid in a heartbeat <3 I'd even let him smoke.

But rly, I've heard the theory that we tend to find attractive what is scarce in our real lives. This is, for example, why tan and thin is considered the ideal for women (and men) depicted in the media, while studies come out all the time that people in first-world societies are becoming more and more overweight.

Could you apply that idea to the seemingly inexplicable attraction to effeminate (or metro) men? What do you guys and gals think--is the scarcity idea is bullshit anyway?

 

[Channy]

Well if he ceased aging, how can he age to 50?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I guess it's subjective. While how long you've been around and your experiences definitely account, your mental age is just as important to some people. Red XIII has more of a case for being truly 48 because he's been around that long. But Vincent has been sleeping, not doing anything, for about 30 years. You could make a serious case of Vincent just being 27 because he's only been around that long.

If I went into cryogenic storage for 60 years, would I be seriously considered 81 would I came out? Not by any real standards, that's for sure.

Cait's personality comes from Reeve. He controls him and can experience and see what Cait sees. It's his "Inspire" ability. Cait has his mother's accent and it comes from Reeve. Reeve knows all that Cait knows and saying he wasn't there makes no sense since he's the one controlling him and causing him to act the way he does.

So Reeve was in some trance like state during the entire FF7 controlling Cait? I know that Reeve can make him and Cait move simultaneously, but they also move, act, and think separately as well. Reeve sort of 'controls' Cait and gave him life, but they are two separate entities as well. Cait has his own will.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Vincent ceased aging but that doesn't change the fact he's a 50 year old man. Age is more than just a biological indicator of one's cellular structure degrading and breaking down over time. Vincent has matured and hardened due to age, and while he slept most of the time, he carries himself like an older person and he *did* wake up briefly during BC. He isn't 20 years old anymore in terms of his thinking or attitude at all.

Red XIII is 50 years old. Period. He's still young and learning but he has seen a lot more and experienced a lot more than any normal human. He's not young.

@Notorious M.O.G.

Vincent wasn't in Cryogenic Sleep. He was in a self imposed prison and exile. He was very much aware and could be woken up. He wasn't literally frozen, or requiring thaw. His mind was working and turning in his sleep.

I don't know what Reeve is like controlling Cait, but the fact is, is that he does. He can see what Cait sees, and Cait talks like Reeve's mother and carries his childhood accent. Cait's programmed to be as Reeve wants him but Reeve is still the puppetmaster. You can't deny the fact Reeve was there by proxy in FFVII. How does Cait have his own will? Reeve *controls* him, and the creators explicity say that numerous times. He has AI and personality but Reeve is still the one who can control him. That makes no sense. For all intents and purposes, Reeve is a puppet master.

Why do you think in DC, Vincent asks Reeve what costume he's intending to wear today?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Vincent wasn't in Cryogenic Sleep. He was in a self imposed prison and exile. He was very much aware and could be woken up. He wasn't literally frozen, or requiring thaw. His mind was working and turning in his sleep.

Alright, so he was sleeping for 60 years. He occasionally woke up. No real difference, man!

I don't know what Reeve is like controlling Cait, but the fact is, is that he does. He can see what Cait sees, and Cait talks like Reeve's mother and carries his childhood accent. Cait's programmed to be as Reeve wants him but Reeve is still the puppetmaster. You can't deny the fact Reeve was there by proxy in FFVII. How does Cait have his own will? Reeve *controls* him, and the creators explicity say that numerous times. He has AI and personality but Reeve is still the one who can control him. That makes no sense. For all intents and purposes, Reeve is a puppet master.

I am 100% sure I've seen Reeve and Cait at the same time (and no, not that scene in DoC where they're doing the same movements) and Cait saying/doing one thing and Reeve doing another. Cait is a robot like thing that Reeve gave life that he can and does control. But he controls him like one would a Tamagotchi or something. He's not a complete extension of Reeve in every way. Reeve controls Cait, but Cait isn't Reeve.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well in cryogenic sleep your mind is frozen as well.

And I'm telling you, Reeve's 10th Anniversary Ultimania, clearly calls Reeve the puppetmaster and controller of Cait Sith. Cait's got a personality but Reeve is the one behind him. All of those traits Cait Sith has, are Reeve's, right down to the speech. If Reeve is able to control and manipulate a dummy of himself containing a Cait Sith inside, and then also control Cait Sith by proxy over great distances, then Reeve is the one behind him, period. You're attributing too much personality and control to a puppet. It's just an extension of Reeve. His "Inspire" ability is what gives Cait his life-like qualities but he's still in essence, a puppet.

Again, why would Vincent equate Cait Sith's presence as just another suit, Reeve wears?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Well in cryogenic sleep your mind is frozen as well.

Well yeah, but I'm talking about it's similar because you're still in one spot unconscious, not gaining any life experience and not physically aging. You know your brain physically changes with physical age, right? Vince has been around for 57 plus years and he does act older than he is (like many real life people) but physically and pretty much mentally he's still 27 years of age.

And I'm telling you, Reeve's 10th Anniversary Ultimania, clearly calls Reeve the puppetmaster and controller of Cait Sith. Cait's got a personality but Reeve is the one behind him. All of those traits Cait Sith has, are Reeve's, right down to the speech. If Reeve is able to control and manipulate a dummy of himself containing a Cait Sith inside, and then also control Cait Sith by proxy over great distances, then Reeve is the one behind him, period. You're attributing too much personality and control to a puppet. It's just an extension of Reeve. His "Inspire" ability is what gives Cait his life-like qualities but he's still in essence, a puppet.

Again, why would Vincent equate Cait Sith's presence as just another suit, Reeve wears?

Well that's really weird dude because now I have this mental image of Reeve spending the entirety of FF7 in an office dancing and throwing punches in place and talking to himself.

 

[Channy]

I dunno. Yuffie, Aerith, Tifa, Cloud > Cid, Barret still

Red, Vincent and Cait Sith are obviously wild cards.

 

[Makoeyes987]

@Notorious M.O.G.

I think while he may not have been moving about and "living"...his experiences and self imposed exile has aged him beyond his years. He's not young at all. He's grumpy, morose, solitary, and wise despite his physical age. He's not very "young" at all. I don't see how you can equate him to a young person.

And Reeve...very well could've have done it that way.

But you can't put the puppet above the puppet master. Reeve is the real man behind the toy and saying he doesn't count is ridiculous. He's *real.* Cait's a toy being controlled by a man.

And there's nothing "wild" about Red, Vincent or Reeve. They're old. Period. In terms of their existence and experience, they are not young people. You can't legitimately say they're young.

 

[Channy]

Yes I can, because it says that Vincent isn't supposedly to age. Chaos essentially made him immortal. Ergo, 20-whatever.

Bugen says that Red is just a kid, even though his HUMAN years say 48, in HIS race he's only 16. His race years should > human years because.. he's not human.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I think while he may not have been moving about and "living"...his experiences and self imposed exile has aged him beyond his years. He's not young at all. He's grumpy, morose, solitary, and wise despite his physical age. He's not very "young" at all. I don't see how you can equate him to a young person.

His experience definitely changed him for sure. And I'm not equating Vincent to a young person, but comparing him straight to an actual 57 year old is just laughable to me and insulting to someone actually that age.

And to be fair, there are plenty of grumpy, morose, solitary, and wise people beyond their physical ages. We're not in a fantasy land so it's not the exact same thing, but still.

But you can't put the puppet above the puppet master. Reeve is the real man behind the toy and saying he doesn't count is ridiculous. He's *real.* Cait's a toy being controlled by a man.

I'm not putting the puppet above the puppeteer, but I always got the impression that Reeve gave life to Cait Sith, and told him 'here, do this, and when I need to actually see through and say through you, I'll do so'. I'd bet money that Reeve wasn't PERSONALLY doing EVERYTHING that Cait Sith did throughout the entire game, because the original game itself shows them doing and saying two different things. Cait has his own self sense to a degree.

 

[Makoeyes987]

We're still talking of age, Channy. Just because Vincent doesn't age biologically doesn't mean he has no age at all. That's ridiculous. He still follows the rules of time and has number of years attached to his existence. Stop trying to put him in the same age bracket as Yuffie, cause they are not the same. Their experiences and time on this earth are not even. Vincent is from an entirely different generation.

And yeah, in perspective of his race he's young, but that doesn't change the fact he's FIFTY YEARS OLD, and is not young compared to a human. He's still old in terms of his years compared to Cloud, Tifa, and Yuffie. Again, they are not peers. He still has outlived them and seen more than them. I don't understand why you can't get that. Red XIII has been around, seen more, and experienced more than them. While he's still immature in reference to his race...if we're comparing him to the characters in FFVII, he's still *older* than them.

@Notorious M.O.G.

Well I don't see how you could say he's like a 27 year old, cause he isn't. He's definitely older than he looks. And acts like it. Regardless of the reasoning.

Reeve gave life-like qualities to Cait. Cait's still not alive. Again, why do they call Reeve the puppet master and controller? Why would Vincent and the others call Cait's existence another suit of Reeve's? You're kinda ignoring the facts here. You're getting loss in the puppet master's illusion.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Well I don't see how you could say he's like a 27 year old, cause he isn't. He's definitely older than he looks. And acts like it. Regardless of the reasoning.

He's older than he looks, no one was arguing that. And I take back what I said, he acts older than he is as well. But I wouldn't say he acts like a 57 year old person. He's a fictional character so there isn't an exact science, but still.

Reeve gave life-like qualities to Cait. Cait's still not alive. Again, why do they call Reeve the puppet master and controller? Why would Vincent and the others call Cait's existence another suit of Reeve's? You're kinda ignoring the facts here. You're getting loss in the puppet master's illusion.

I'm not saying Cait is alive, but if I made a robot with an advanced A.I. that I control but it's intelligent enough to act on its own once in a while (as Cait did) that robot certainly isn't me, even if I programmed it with some of my own traits and accent. He's just a robot I control and that I made.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Okay, not as old a 57 year old, but still old. Fair enough

But Cait isn't just programmed. He's been given these traits and is controlled through Reeve's Inspire ability which allows him personally to control Cait, as a puppet.

It's not just A.I. programming. It's Reeve's abilitiy.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

But Cait isn't just programmed. He's been given these traits and is controlled through Reeve's Inspire ability which allows him personally to control Cait, as a puppet.

It's not just A.I. programming. It's Reeve's abilitiy.

True, but the question is does he personally control him all the time? The Compilation shows us that he doesn't.

 

[Channy]

We're still talking of age, Channy. Just because Vincent doesn't age biologically doesn't mean he has no age at all. That's ridiculous. He still follows the rules of time and has number of years attached to his existence. Stop trying to put him in the same age bracket as Yuffie, cause they are not the same. Their experiences and time on this earth are not even. Vincent is from an entirely different generation.

And yeah, in perspective of his race he's young, but that doesn't change the fact he's FIFTY YEARS OLD, and is not young compared to a human. He's still old in terms of his years compared to Cloud, Tifa, and Yuffie. Again, they are not peers. He still has outlived them and seen more than them. I don't understand why you can't get that. Red XIII has been around, seen more, and experienced more than them. While he's still immature in reference to his race...if we're comparing him to the characters in FFVII, he's still *older* than them.

If we're going by life experiences which you brought up, Vincent's been asleep for 20 something years. So what life experiences could he has had, other than the view of the back of his eyelids for so many years?

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'd disagree and say he does. He knows things, only Cait knows, and is clearly able and shown to be able to listen in and see what it sees.

How did Reeve get all the information on DG and Omega, when he sent Cait Sith to Mako Reactor 0? Cait Sith never made it back. Furthermore, it got sucked into Nero's darkness. Unless Reeve was controlling Cait right then and there, and was looking through his eyes, there's no way he'd have gotten all that intel on DG's plans.

Furthermore, how did Reeve know Cait Sith in the Reeve puppet asked for Vincent's help and that Vincent declined? He carried on the plea for help as if he knew what Vincent's answer was before, when he spoke to Cait.

The creators explicitly say Reeve is controlling Cait and has likened him to a puppet master, so I don't see how you can really attribute Cait Sith as more than just an extension of Reeve, the real man.

@Channy

Vincent's still older because he comes from a different age, and while he's slept for most of his time, he did wake up during BC and was awake long enough to change his outfit, and notice his body. We don't know HOW long Vincent was up before he slept. And again, his experiences have aged him. He is not the young person he was anymore, and he is a lot wiser and older than anyone his physical age.