Faith v. 3.0 (Cloti Club)

Master Bates

Do you enjoy your life?
AKA
Mr. Koiwai
Anybody know where I can watch an entire playthrough in Japanese (w/ English trans)? I've only seen bits and pieces and I'm curious to hear the entire thing in Japanese. I only played a single playthrough in English so I missed a lot of things (not exclusive to the LTD). It's an opportunity to pick up on the things I missed by watching another's play.
 

Graymouse

Pro Adventurer
As I previously said, i think the VA Ayumi Ito did an excellent job at protraying the emotions in Tifa this time around. She did it much better then her Tifa in AC.

Playing it Japanese is the way to go, to get the entire Tifa experience!
 

Graymouse

Pro Adventurer
Anybody know where I can watch an entire playthrough in Japanese (w/ English trans)? I've only seen bits and pieces and I'm curious to hear the entire thing in Japanese. I only played a single playthrough in English so I missed a lot of things (not exclusive to the LTD). It's an opportunity to pick up on the things I missed by watching another's play.

Do you want a playthrough or just a "movie" with all the cut scenes?


This is part 1 of the playthrough with Japanese subs. You can find the rest.

 

Master Bates

Do you enjoy your life?
AKA
Mr. Koiwai
Do you want a playthrough or just a "movie" with all the cut scenes?


This is part 1 of the playthrough with Japanese subs. You can find the rest.


Thanks. I'd be fine with either, though a playthrough is more preferable. I'll watch this later when I get home.
 

Graymouse

Pro Adventurer
Thanks. I'd be fine with either, though a playthrough is more preferable. I'll watch this later when I get home.

Your welcome, I hope that you get a better insight watching it in Japanese. There are some difference in some scenes with Tifa and Cloud in the Japanese dubs. It is just that the conversation is more directed towards the characters and not as ambiguous as it is in EN.
 

iamhorde

Pro Adventurer
I actually like Tifa's EN voice, I thought Brit Baron did a great job but a little disappointed with Cloud's tone and script. Ironic because it seems Cody Christian is a Tifa fan too. When asked who would he take on a date at the Golden Saucer, he responded "Definitely Tifa" (source)

Thanks. I'd be fine with either, though a playthrough is more preferable. I'll watch this later when I get home.

Just a note on watching the JP version with EN subs, the subs seem to reflect the EN script and there are areas where it does take liberties from the JP version. This Instagram account covers quite a few of the important difference for certain scenes. For your reference :) https://www.instagram.com/the.strifes/?hl=en
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Baron is probably the best Tifa voice I've heard this to point. Ito has always sounded too high and 'small' to me. Cook always sounded better to me in combat moments in particular.
 

DutchDread

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Dutch Dread
Stories have internal and external struggles, the internal struggles need to be resolved before the hero can resolve the external struggles, they are usually the more important part of a story, what gives it depth, weight, and meaning. The external struggles are usually more like the presentation to present the actual story, which is the internal, human element.

Aerith in FFVII is the heroine of the external struggle. Tifa is the heroine of the internal struggle.

While Aerith has the task of stopping Sephiroth and Meteor, a very tangible and obvious goal, Tifa's is tasked with helping Cloud resolve his internal struggles (which are resolves as a direct consequence of Tifa resolving her own). It's that resolving of the internal struggle that puts Cloud in the position where he is able to succeed where he failed before. He faces Sephiroth while his internal issues weren't solved yet and loses, then resolves them and find the power to succeed. This is classic writing.

This is the result of a choice that Aerith and Tifa both have to make in FFVII which cements their position within the story that's being told, while their relative roles are rather fluent in the early parts of the game, resulting in the LTD, those roles are firmly determined by the end.

Tifa and Aerith mirror each other throughout the story, Aerith is like Tifas reflection, the same, yet opposite.

The classic example of this is how Tifa looks sexy and outgoing when she's actually more shy and reserved, while Aerith is actually the flirty outgoing one despite her looking shy and reserved. But it goes deeper than that. The mirroring is present throughout their character arcs, starting 7 years before the beginning of the game.

About 2 years before Nibleheim, Cloud leaves Nibleheim and Tifa, an action that instigates Tifas romantic interest in him. Something that simmers in her for the next two years. Around the same time, Aerith meets Zack and starts being attracted to him. This lasts for 2 years.

When we get to Nibleheim, we see Cloud pining after Tifa, Zack after Aerith, both are having problems communicating, Cloud because he's literally to ashamed to talk to Tifa, Zack because his job keeps getting in the way. We also see Tifa and Aerith both making attempts to approach their respective love interests in some way. Aerith is attempting to call Zack, Tifa is asking about Cloud, and talking about dreaming of being saved by a blond soldier or something to that nature.

Both Cloud and Zack have a promise that needs to be fulfilled, but, spoiler, seemingly won't be until the resolution of FFVII.
Cloud has promised to come protect Tifa when she's in need. Zack has promised to make Aeriths 23 tiny wishes come true, which eventually turns out to be one wish "I want to spend more time with you".

Nibleheim happens, and Cloud, for the second time in his life, fails to protect Tifa, he fails his promise, and for the next 5 years, Zack and Cloud seemingly disappear from the face of the planet. During this time, both Aerith and Tifa in some way are trying to cope with what they've lost, and are left feeling alone. Tifa has lost nibleheim, her connection to Soldier, and therefore, Cloud. She doesn't know the truth of Cloud being there 5 years ago, and that that's really when they were torn apart. Likewise, Aerith is torn from Zack, a guy she was developing strong feelings for, and in a way, a representation of the good things in her Shinra dominated life.
She doesn't know what happened to Zack, but in some way feels that he's still alive, and still wears pink 5 years later in remembrance of her promise to him, to wear pink on their next date.

Zack and Cloud escape, Zack dies, being drenched in Mako, having Jenova read minds, Sephiroths influence, as well as his own insecurities cause Cloud to become a twisted amalgamation of himself and memories and ideas about Zack and who he should be. Instead of a weak failure, he's a stoic badass hero, who is able to protect the girl and do everything by himself, he's Zacks living legacy. Aerith feels Zack die, knows deep down something is wrong, and reluctantly tells herself that she needs to move on.

The stage of our play is set.


Act 1: Our heroines meet ZaCloud, and in him, both are in a way reunited with their past love, to both, he represents something they thought they had lost, now unexpectedly returned to them. To Tifa, here is a last connection to Nibleheim and her childhood, and the boy she had a crush on. To Aerith, here is history repeating itself, another Soldier falls through her roof, and in him she sees Zack.

Both girls waste no time treating him as the person they believe and want him to be. Tifa talks to him like he's a precious friend whose she's always shared feelings with, and the soldier she thought he'd become, her Hero.
Aerith conversely immediately starts trying to relive her time with Zack vicariously through Cloud. She immediately offers him a date in payment, something she learned from Zack, and starts interviewing him about this guy she's supposedly "over". Even though Cloud on the surface clearly doesn't enjoy being interacted in with in that way, Aerith still talks to him the way she did with Zack, assuming, hoping, and wanting him to actually be like that. While Zack was lost, she goes out of her way to stay with Cloud this time.

However, it doesn't take long for both girls to realize that there is something wrong with ZaCloud, he's clearly not who he's pretending to be.
Both the girls have a pre-existing relationship and ties with ZaCloud.
The difference is that Tifa's ties with ZaCloud come from his ties with the real Cloud, while in a perfect mirroring, Aeriths ties with ZaCloud come from her ties with Zack.
Intellectually, Tifa knows this has to be her Cloud in some way, but emotionally, she's afraid that he's not. Tifa wants the real Cloud back but is afraid that the "real Cloud" is not who she thinks he is.
Aerith knows intellectually that Cloud is not Zack, but emotionally she doesn't. Her feelings for Zack have latched onto this person, and she doesn't understand how or why. Aerith wants to meet the real Cloud, and she hopes that that would explain her emotions.

Both girls are looking for the "real Cloud", and want the real Cloud to be who they are looking for, but as it tragically turns out, for only one of the girls the "real Cloud" will be the person she was looking for.

Act 2:
Throughout FFVII Cloud interacts with both girls, and both girls enable his delusions in some ways, Tifa refuses to refute Clouds fake persona. Even so, she's symbolic of who he actually is, the person he's running away from, she is reality.
With Aerith he's literally living out his delusion of being Zack's living legacy, a cliché fantasy of being a powerful hero soldier out to save the magical girl, she is fantasy.

However, then reality hits like a freight train, Sephiroth kils Aerith, and Cloud, even now, even as a soldier, once again, fails to save anyone. He is no different, it's Nibleheim all over again. His delusions weren't real.
Cloud loses his grip on what is reality and what is fantasy, not knowing who he is he is taken over by Sephiroth, hands him the black Materia, and falls into the lifestream.
This is ZaClouds final act.

Now throughout act 2, we've seen Clouds psyche break down. And both Aerith and Tifa are put in a position where they have to make a choice in their heart concerning Cloud, what he means to them, and what they are to him. For Aerith, this happens near the end of act 2.

Cloud gives the Black materia to Sephiroth at the temple of the ancients, and proceeds to violently beat Aerith. Afterwards Cloud has a vision of Aerith running away from him, going where he can't follow, and telling him to take care. When Cloud wakes up, Aerith is gone. While Aerith doesn't blame Cloud for beating her, she realizes that she can't take on the burden of saving the planet and Cloud as well. She realizes that she'd been selfish, doing Cloud a disservice by bringing him along on a quest that clearly was having a toll on him mentally. She realizes that she shouldn't have been relying on him and burdening him with her past. She'd been trying to save him, thinking that was her role, the Zack connection made her think that Clouds broken identity was "their story", but now acknowledged that she didn't really know who he was and that perhaps, her desire to see Zack again made her insert herself into a story that perhaps, was about someone else.

Aerith is put in a position where she has to make a choice, between going off and saving the planet, leaving Clouds fate in the hands of others, or staying with Cloud, and letting other people go and save the planet. She chooses to go save the planet. This is her vital decision within the story, the decision that defines what her part in the play is. This decision directly results in her resolving the external conflict of the game by summoning holy and stopping meteor, additionally, by dying, and therefore having her "reunion" with Zackher character arc is brought full circle.
She discovers the truth about Cloud, her confusion lifts, and she finally understands how she, Cloud, Tifa, and Zack, fit into each others stories, and in a way, Zacks promise has been upheld, through ZaCloud, Aerith was able to spend a little more time with him.
Aeriths choice has cemented her role as the heroine of the external conflict of FFVII.

Qeue, act 3:

However, the game goes on, Cloud breaks down, and we are treated with a strangely familiar scene mirroring the one we had with Aerith in the forest of the ancients.
Cloud once again hands the black materia to sephiroth, we then see a vision of Cloud running away from Tifa into darkness, going where she presumably can't follow. We see Tifas backstory, we see the doubt and fear in her heart, and the conflict she's feeling about the truth of who Cloud is. She finds Cloud, poisoned with Mako, completely catatonic, and is forced to make the same choice that Aerith was forced to make in the city of the ancients.

Should she stay with Cloud, and leave the fate of the world in the hands of the others, or should she leave Cloud, and go save the planet. And opposite of Aerith, Tifa decides her place is at Clouds side. Before even entering the life stream she decides in her heart that whatever happened to this man in front of her, that it happened to her as well, that it's "their story", that Cloud isn't going through hard times, THEY are going through hard times.
This is her vital decision in the story, the decision that defines what her part in the play is, as a direct result of this, she falls into the lifesteam, enters Clouds sub-concious, and resolves Clouds inner struggle by retracing who he is, and what makes Cloud Cloud. The plotpoint of the promise is resolved when it is discovered that Cloud came for her in Nibleheim, that they did go through that together, that it was always "their story". That from the beginning, the person who had set it all in motion for Cloud, and was the one person who could resolve it, was Tifa, through the feelings he had locked inside his heart, for "Tifa Lockheart".
Tifas choice cements her role as the Heroine of the internal conflict of FFVII.

Cloud is restored, he realizes and accepts that he's not Zack, that he can't do it alone, and together with and through his friends he finds the strength to defeat Sephiroth as a result of his internal struggle being overcome.

So both Tifa and Aerith are the heroine in their own way.
 

DutchDread

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Dutch Dread
ahhh, this site has no way to edit spelling mistakes, NOOOOO, "fluent"....what the hell? I meant fluid.
Oh god, the mistakes, they're everywhere.
 

odekopeko

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Peko
Wow, thanks @DutchDread for that in-depth analysis. You've hit on a lot of points that made so much sense, and I'm getting all choked up haha. I really enjoyed reading it.

On a lighter note, and this is like a month old, but has someone already posted the vid of Shokotan drawing Cloti fanart? I just thought it was really cute how she originally was not a fan of the couple, but the Remake swayed her into Cloti territory. SE did something right, I guess.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
@DutchDread this is such a great analysis, thank you for sharing this - and at a first post! I think you should post this in the corresponding LTD thread, it's been a long time since we haven't had a really good post over there (but not for the Remake one, for the OG one).

@odekopeko thanks for sharing! As someone who really doesn't know how to draw I'm always fascinated by people who can lol.
 

rkss

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Me
On a lighter note, and this is like a month old, but has someone already posted the vid of Shokotan drawing Cloti fanart? I just thought it was really cute how she originally was not a fan of the couple, but the Remake swayed her into Cloti territory. SE did something right, I guess.
Because SE's kinda changed her character into a sweet cute girl with the soft-tone. In the OG, she's also like that but has a bit tomboy-ish in there (maybe that's just me). In the Remake, her personality is similar to Yuna's, if that makes sense.

On a slightly related note, I want to talk about this scene. Last year, I read FF7r news on Japan media a bit and I was surprised that Japanese really didn't like Avalanche because they were terrorists. Tifa, Barret were disliked for that reason (well, not extremely disliked but you get the picture).
It seems that devs are aware of it and they've made Tifa a morally grey character this time.

In this particular scene, writer has drawn Barret and Tifa's character very clear. They're both in anger/denial state after the Turks dropped the plate. And while Barret cannot accept his failure and blames it all on Shinra, Tifa just gives him a nod without making eyes contact. Everyone, including Barret, a man blinded with hatred can tell Tifa's lying here.
I really like this scene, it adds so much depth to their characters. SE want Barret and Tifa to have exact opposite role and they've nailed it but poor Barrett, he took all the negative elements so no one can criticize our girl.

U.jpg
 
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Yumelinh

Pro Adventurer
WOW @DutchDread!!! This is one hell of a great post! Like really... that's just too good to be just here tbh ( but I have no idea where this post could go.. LTD thread maybe? but that is a discussion thread so idk you'd want to engage in that).

Anyways, thanks for the post! and as @ForceStealer said, the edit will be available after you post a few more posts :)
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Because this forum may be a little intimidating at first, @DutchDread if you want to post your analysis, I believe you can do it here (it should be the right thread :D). Most people are mellow here, but it's an excellent analysis a lot will love to read, probably.
 

Final_Heaven

Pro Adventurer
Stories have internal and external struggles, the internal struggles need to be resolved before the hero can resolve the external struggles, they are usually the more important part of a story, what gives it depth, weight, and meaning. The external struggles are usually more like the presentation to present the actual story, which is the internal, human element.

Aerith in FFVII is the heroine of the external struggle. Tifa is the heroine of the internal struggle.

While Aerith has the task of stopping Sephiroth and Meteor, a very tangible and obvious goal, Tifa's is tasked with helping Cloud resolve his internal struggles (which are resolves as a direct consequence of Tifa resolving her own). It's that resolving of the internal struggle that puts Cloud in the position where he is able to succeed where he failed before. He faces Sephiroth while his internal issues weren't solved yet and loses, then resolves them and find the power to succeed. This is classic writing.

This is the result of a choice that Aerith and Tifa both have to make in FFVII which cements their position within the story that's being told, while their relative roles are rather fluent in the early parts of the game, resulting in the LTD, those roles are firmly determined by the end.

Tifa and Aerith mirror each other throughout the story, Aerith is like Tifas reflection, the same, yet opposite.

The classic example of this is how Tifa looks sexy and outgoing when she's actually more shy and reserved, while Aerith is actually the flirty outgoing one despite her looking shy and reserved. But it goes deeper than that. The mirroring is present throughout their character arcs, starting 7 years before the beginning of the game.

About 2 years before Nibleheim, Cloud leaves Nibleheim and Tifa, an action that instigates Tifas romantic interest in him. Something that simmers in her for the next two years. Around the same time, Aerith meets Zack and starts being attracted to him. This lasts for 2 years.

When we get to Nibleheim, we see Cloud pining after Tifa, Zack after Aerith, both are having problems communicating, Cloud because he's literally to ashamed to talk to Tifa, Zack because his job keeps getting in the way. We also see Tifa and Aerith both making attempts to approach their respective love interests in some way. Aerith is attempting to call Zack, Tifa is asking about Cloud, and talking about dreaming of being saved by a blond soldier or something to that nature.

Both Cloud and Zack have a promise that needs to be fulfilled, but, spoiler, seemingly won't be until the resolution of FFVII.
Cloud has promised to come protect Tifa when she's in need. Zack has promised to make Aeriths 23 tiny wishes come true, which eventually turns out to be one wish "I want to spend more time with you".

Nibleheim happens, and Cloud, for the second time in his life, fails to protect Tifa, he fails his promise, and for the next 5 years, Zack and Cloud seemingly disappear from the face of the planet. During this time, both Aerith and Tifa in some way are trying to cope with what they've lost, and are left feeling alone. Tifa has lost nibleheim, her connection to Soldier, and therefore, Cloud. She doesn't know the truth of Cloud being there 5 years ago, and that that's really when they were torn apart. Likewise, Aerith is torn from Zack, a guy she was developing strong feelings for, and in a way, a representation of the good things in her Shinra dominated life.
She doesn't know what happened to Zack, but in some way feels that he's still alive, and still wears pink 5 years later in remembrance of her promise to him, to wear pink on their next date.

Zack and Cloud escape, Zack dies, being drenched in Mako, having Jenova read minds, Sephiroths influence, as well as his own insecurities cause Cloud to become a twisted amalgamation of himself and memories and ideas about Zack and who he should be. Instead of a weak failure, he's a stoic badass hero, who is able to protect the girl and do everything by himself, he's Zacks living legacy. Aerith feels Zack die, knows deep down something is wrong, and reluctantly tells herself that she needs to move on.

The stage of our play is set.


Act 1: Our heroines meet ZaCloud, and in him, both are in a way reunited with their past love, to both, he represents something they thought they had lost, now unexpectedly returned to them. To Tifa, here is a last connection to Nibleheim and her childhood, and the boy she had a crush on. To Aerith, here is history repeating itself, another Soldier falls through her roof, and in him she sees Zack.

Both girls waste no time treating him as the person they believe and want him to be. Tifa talks to him like he's a precious friend whose she's always shared feelings with, and the soldier she thought he'd become, her Hero.
Aerith conversely immediately starts trying to relive her time with Zack vicariously through Cloud. She immediately offers him a date in payment, something she learned from Zack, and starts interviewing him about this guy she's supposedly "over". Even though Cloud on the surface clearly doesn't enjoy being interacted in with in that way, Aerith still talks to him the way she did with Zack, assuming, hoping, and wanting him to actually be like that. While Zack was lost, she goes out of her way to stay with Cloud this time.

However, it doesn't take long for both girls to realize that there is something wrong with ZaCloud, he's clearly not who he's pretending to be.
Both the girls have a pre-existing relationship and ties with ZaCloud.
The difference is that Tifa's ties with ZaCloud come from his ties with the real Cloud, while in a perfect mirroring, Aeriths ties with ZaCloud come from her ties with Zack.
Intellectually, Tifa knows this has to be her Cloud in some way, but emotionally, she's afraid that he's not. Tifa wants the real Cloud back but is afraid that the "real Cloud" is not who she thinks he is.
Aerith knows intellectually that Cloud is not Zack, but emotionally she doesn't. Her feelings for Zack have latched onto this person, and she doesn't understand how or why. Aerith wants to meet the real Cloud, and she hopes that that would explain her emotions.

Both girls are looking for the "real Cloud", and want the real Cloud to be who they are looking for, but as it tragically turns out, for only one of the girls the "real Cloud" will be the person she was looking for.

Act 2:
Throughout FFVII Cloud interacts with both girls, and both girls enable his delusions in some ways, Tifa refuses to refute Clouds fake persona. Even so, she's symbolic of who he actually is, the person he's running away from, she is reality.
With Aerith he's literally living out his delusion of being Zack's living legacy, a cliché fantasy of being a powerful hero soldier out to save the magical girl, she is fantasy.

However, then reality hits like a freight train, Sephiroth kils Aerith, and Cloud, even now, even as a soldier, once again, fails to save anyone. He is no different, it's Nibleheim all over again. His delusions weren't real.
Cloud loses his grip on what is reality and what is fantasy, not knowing who he is he is taken over by Sephiroth, hands him the black Materia, and falls into the lifestream.
This is ZaClouds final act.

Now throughout act 2, we've seen Clouds psyche break down. And both Aerith and Tifa are put in a position where they have to make a choice in their heart concerning Cloud, what he means to them, and what they are to him. For Aerith, this happens near the end of act 2.

Cloud gives the Black materia to Sephiroth at the temple of the ancients, and proceeds to violently beat Aerith. Afterwards Cloud has a vision of Aerith running away from him, going where he can't follow, and telling him to take care. When Cloud wakes up, Aerith is gone. While Aerith doesn't blame Cloud for beating her, she realizes that she can't take on the burden of saving the planet and Cloud as well. She realizes that she'd been selfish, doing Cloud a disservice by bringing him along on a quest that clearly was having a toll on him mentally. She realizes that she shouldn't have been relying on him and burdening him with her past. She'd been trying to save him, thinking that was her role, the Zack connection made her think that Clouds broken identity was "their story", but now acknowledged that she didn't really know who he was and that perhaps, her desire to see Zack again made her insert herself into a story that perhaps, was about someone else.

Aerith is put in a position where she has to make a choice, between going off and saving the planet, leaving Clouds fate in the hands of others, or staying with Cloud, and letting other people go and save the planet. She chooses to go save the planet. This is her vital decision within the story, the decision that defines what her part in the play is. This decision directly results in her resolving the external conflict of the game by summoning holy and stopping meteor, additionally, by dying, and therefore having her "reunion" with Zackher character arc is brought full circle.
She discovers the truth about Cloud, her confusion lifts, and she finally understands how she, Cloud, Tifa, and Zack, fit into each others stories, and in a way, Zacks promise has been upheld, through ZaCloud, Aerith was able to spend a little more time with him.
Aeriths choice has cemented her role as the heroine of the external conflict of FFVII.

Qeue, act 3:

However, the game goes on, Cloud breaks down, and we are treated with a strangely familiar scene mirroring the one we had with Aerith in the forest of the ancients.
Cloud once again hands the black materia to sephiroth, we then see a vision of Cloud running away from Tifa into darkness, going where she presumably can't follow. We see Tifas backstory, we see the doubt and fear in her heart, and the conflict she's feeling about the truth of who Cloud is. She finds Cloud, poisoned with Mako, completely catatonic, and is forced to make the same choice that Aerith was forced to make in the city of the ancients.

Should she stay with Cloud, and leave the fate of the world in the hands of the others, or should she leave Cloud, and go save the planet. And opposite of Aerith, Tifa decides her place is at Clouds side. Before even entering the life stream she decides in her heart that whatever happened to this man in front of her, that it happened to her as well, that it's "their story", that Cloud isn't going through hard times, THEY are going through hard times.
This is her vital decision in the story, the decision that defines what her part in the play is, as a direct result of this, she falls into the lifesteam, enters Clouds sub-concious, and resolves Clouds inner struggle by retracing who he is, and what makes Cloud Cloud. The plotpoint of the promise is resolved when it is discovered that Cloud came for her in Nibleheim, that they did go through that together, that it was always "their story". That from the beginning, the person who had set it all in motion for Cloud, and was the one person who could resolve it, was Tifa, through the feelings he had locked inside his heart, for "Tifa Lockheart".
Tifas choice cements her role as the Heroine of the internal conflict of FFVII.

Cloud is restored, he realizes and accepts that he's not Zack, that he can't do it alone, and together with and through his friends he finds the strength to defeat Sephiroth as a result of his internal struggle being overcome.

So both Tifa and Aerith are the heroine in their own way.

This is such crazy good post that I really want to see you post it on the Remake Reddit thread just to see what the fans say and see them debate it amongst themselves.

Not one bad leap in bad faith was made here and it gives everyone their proper due.
 

odekopeko

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Peko
Omg @minami758, I only saw a clip of her reacting to the Aerith Resolution from a Japanese CA friend of mine. Did not even know she saw the other one. Thanks, I'll check it out!

By the way, someone asked earlier how the LTD bodes on the Japanese side, and, at least from my observations on twitter, it gets just as heated. They argue about the exact same things we do. Yesterday it was about Midgar Blues. Never-ending cycle, I guess. But I enjoy reading Japanese comments more, only because I'll occasionally find tweets from people on both sides trying to analyze the other side's scenes with their CT/CA filters off. It's refreshing.

Saw a tweet from a CA musing about the Alone At Last discovery scene, and how the camera is from Cloud's POV, and we see how his gaze lingers on Tifa's eyes when she approaches him. He admitted that the surprised, "EH?!" Cloud let out seemed expectant. He felt this scene being from Cloud's POV definitely seems like a guy attracted to a girl he likes, but he still prefers CA.

Another J-fan admits he's not into shipping, and thinks endgame from the OG and CC is obviously CT/ZA. But because the CA relationship has this unknown element to it, he'd like to explore a route where he can save her and see how their relationship might work out. There are lot of musings like that that I personally enjoy reading more than debates on who is the canon couple.

@rkss Great observation. I think you're right about that. Sakurai also mentioned this in the comment he left that I posted. He was like, I can't believe [I'd become] a terrorist! And just this morning, J-fans were talking about how they appreciate Avalanche members being fleshed out, and how they want a friend like Biggs. How he's such a nice guy and everything, and how they'd consider dating him since he seems single. But the next part that always comes after that is, "...テロリストだけど笑/ ...Even though he's a terrorist (laughs)." I guess it's a really big deal.

But I feel like that the moral gray character in Tifa was present in the OG too, just not fleshed out. When Tifa heard those voices in the Lifestream, wasn't she covering her ears to block them out? I thought she was guilty over the casualties she felt they caused. Not 100% sure on this though.

@ForceStealer I finally got to hear the English voices, and Brit Baron does an amazing job. A lot of Japanese fans also commented the same from what I saw.
 
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minami758

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Miiwoo
@odekopeko Hope you enjoy! Maybe it's just my bias but it definitely seems like Shokotan prefers CT this time around, haha.

From what I hear re: LTD in Japan, it's as odeko said. I know there are quite a few international CA fans who cling onto the idea that CA is more popular in Japan than internationally, but a simple search across different platforms will tell you CT is still more popular, it's simply a bit more equal in Japan than compared to the landslide elsewhere.

On a slightly tangential note, I don't really understand this obsession with putting Japanese fans on a pedestal, as if there aren't bad faith arguments everywhere. FF7 is a global property, it doesn't really make sense to only cater to a singular country. Several CA fans really latch onto the NHK favorite character poll conducted a few months ago, where Aerith was #3 and Tifa was #9, saying that Tifa was "only popular in the west." But you could also vote multiple times for the NHK poll, so...:whistle:
 

Final_Heaven

Pro Adventurer
Omg @minami758, I only saw a clip of her reacting to the Aerith Resolution from a Japanese CA friend of mine. Did not even know she saw the other one. Thanks, I'll check it out!

By the way, someone asked earlier how the LTD bodes on the Japanese side, and, at least from my observations on twitter, it gets just as heated. They argue about the exact same things we do. Yesterday it was about Midgar Blues. Never-ending cycle, I guess. But I enjoy reading Japanese comments more, only because I'll occasionally find tweets from people on both sides trying to analyze the other side's scenes with their CT/CA filters off. It's refreshing.

Saw a tweet from a CA musing about the Alone At Last discovery scene, and how the camera is from Cloud's POV, and we see how his gaze lingers on Tifa's eyes when she approaches him. He admitted that the surprised, "EH?!" Cloud let out seemed expectant. He felt this scene being from Cloud's POV definitely seems like a guy attracted to a girl he likes, but he still prefers CA.

Another J-fan admits he's not into shipping, and thinks endgame from the OG and CC is obviously CT/ZA. But because the CA relationship has this unknown element to it, he'd like to explore a route where he can save her and see how their relationship might work out. There are lot of musings like that that I personally enjoy reading more than debates on who is the canon couple.

Those are my personal favorites. When someone who doesn't have a stake in the shipping wars shares an opinion uncolored by emotions.

And where someone from the opposite side tries to remain as impartial as impossible.

I mean like I was saying this on twitter. There is most definitely a preferred canon that the story wants you to view the story through and now that the Remake is here, we're going to get less ambiguity like we are now.

@odekopeko Hope you enjoy! Maybe it's just my bias but it definitely seems like Shokotan prefers CT this time around, haha.

From what I hear re: LTD in Japan, it's as odeko said. I know there are quite a few international CA fans who cling onto the idea that CA is more popular in Japan than internationally, but a simple search across different platforms will tell you CT is still more popular, it's simply a bit more equal in Japan than compared to the landslide elsewhere.

On a slightly tangential note, I don't really understand this obsession with putting Japanese fans on a pedestal, as if there aren't bad faith arguments everywhere. FF7 is a global property, it doesn't really make sense to only cater to a singular country. Several CA fans really latch onto the NHK favorite character poll conducted a few months ago, where Aerith was #3 and Tifa was #9, saying that Tifa was "only popular in the west." But you could also vote multiple times for the NHK poll, so...:whistle:


I'd be interested to know who the Japanese ship more now.

There was a poll done 4 years ago on it. One for Japan and one internationally.

Cloud x Tifa beat Cloud x Aerith in Japan.

In the West though, Aerith x Cloud didn't break top ten whereas Cloud x Tifa got 4th place.

https://strife-fixation.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F146163558418
So Yuna x Tidus won 1st in Japan.

Rinoa x Squall won first internationally.
 

Final_Heaven

Pro Adventurer
Stories have internal and external struggles, the internal struggles need to be resolved before the hero can resolve the external struggles, they are usually the more important part of a story, what gives it depth, weight, and meaning. The external struggles are usually more like the presentation to present the actual story, which is the internal, human element.

Aerith in FFVII is the heroine of the external struggle. Tifa is the heroine of the internal struggle.

While Aerith has the task of stopping Sephiroth and Meteor, a very tangible and obvious goal, Tifa's is tasked with helping Cloud resolve his internal struggles (which are resolves as a direct consequence of Tifa resolving her own). It's that resolving of the internal struggle that puts Cloud in the position where he is able to succeed where he failed before. He faces Sephiroth while his internal issues weren't solved yet and loses, then resolves them and find the power to succeed. This is classic writing.

This is the result of a choice that Aerith and Tifa both have to make in FFVII which cements their position within the story that's being told, while their relative roles are rather fluent in the early parts of the game, resulting in the LTD, those roles are firmly determined by the end.

Tifa and Aerith mirror each other throughout the story, Aerith is like Tifas reflection, the same, yet opposite.

The classic example of this is how Tifa looks sexy and outgoing when she's actually more shy and reserved, while Aerith is actually the flirty outgoing one despite her looking shy and reserved. But it goes deeper than that. The mirroring is present throughout their character arcs, starting 7 years before the beginning of the game.

About 2 years before Nibleheim, Cloud leaves Nibleheim and Tifa, an action that instigates Tifas romantic interest in him. Something that simmers in her for the next two years. Around the same time, Aerith meets Zack and starts being attracted to him. This lasts for 2 years.

When we get to Nibleheim, we see Cloud pining after Tifa, Zack after Aerith, both are having problems communicating, Cloud because he's literally to ashamed to talk to Tifa, Zack because his job keeps getting in the way. We also see Tifa and Aerith both making attempts to approach their respective love interests in some way. Aerith is attempting to call Zack, Tifa is asking about Cloud, and talking about dreaming of being saved by a blond soldier or something to that nature.

Both Cloud and Zack have a promise that needs to be fulfilled, but, spoiler, seemingly won't be until the resolution of FFVII.
Cloud has promised to come protect Tifa when she's in need. Zack has promised to make Aeriths 23 tiny wishes come true, which eventually turns out to be one wish "I want to spend more time with you".

Nibleheim happens, and Cloud, for the second time in his life, fails to protect Tifa, he fails his promise, and for the next 5 years, Zack and Cloud seemingly disappear from the face of the planet. During this time, both Aerith and Tifa in some way are trying to cope with what they've lost, and are left feeling alone. Tifa has lost nibleheim, her connection to Soldier, and therefore, Cloud. She doesn't know the truth of Cloud being there 5 years ago, and that that's really when they were torn apart. Likewise, Aerith is torn from Zack, a guy she was developing strong feelings for, and in a way, a representation of the good things in her Shinra dominated life.
She doesn't know what happened to Zack, but in some way feels that he's still alive, and still wears pink 5 years later in remembrance of her promise to him, to wear pink on their next date.

Zack and Cloud escape, Zack dies, being drenched in Mako, having Jenova read minds, Sephiroths influence, as well as his own insecurities cause Cloud to become a twisted amalgamation of himself and memories and ideas about Zack and who he should be. Instead of a weak failure, he's a stoic badass hero, who is able to protect the girl and do everything by himself, he's Zacks living legacy. Aerith feels Zack die, knows deep down something is wrong, and reluctantly tells herself that she needs to move on.

The stage of our play is set.


Act 1: Our heroines meet ZaCloud, and in him, both are in a way reunited with their past love, to both, he represents something they thought they had lost, now unexpectedly returned to them. To Tifa, here is a last connection to Nibleheim and her childhood, and the boy she had a crush on. To Aerith, here is history repeating itself, another Soldier falls through her roof, and in him she sees Zack.

Both girls waste no time treating him as the person they believe and want him to be. Tifa talks to him like he's a precious friend whose she's always shared feelings with, and the soldier she thought he'd become, her Hero.
Aerith conversely immediately starts trying to relive her time with Zack vicariously through Cloud. She immediately offers him a date in payment, something she learned from Zack, and starts interviewing him about this guy she's supposedly "over". Even though Cloud on the surface clearly doesn't enjoy being interacted in with in that way, Aerith still talks to him the way she did with Zack, assuming, hoping, and wanting him to actually be like that. While Zack was lost, she goes out of her way to stay with Cloud this time.

However, it doesn't take long for both girls to realize that there is something wrong with ZaCloud, he's clearly not who he's pretending to be.
Both the girls have a pre-existing relationship and ties with ZaCloud.
The difference is that Tifa's ties with ZaCloud come from his ties with the real Cloud, while in a perfect mirroring, Aeriths ties with ZaCloud come from her ties with Zack.
Intellectually, Tifa knows this has to be her Cloud in some way, but emotionally, she's afraid that he's not. Tifa wants the real Cloud back but is afraid that the "real Cloud" is not who she thinks he is.
Aerith knows intellectually that Cloud is not Zack, but emotionally she doesn't. Her feelings for Zack have latched onto this person, and she doesn't understand how or why. Aerith wants to meet the real Cloud, and she hopes that that would explain her emotions.

Both girls are looking for the "real Cloud", and want the real Cloud to be who they are looking for, but as it tragically turns out, for only one of the girls the "real Cloud" will be the person she was looking for.

Act 2:
Throughout FFVII Cloud interacts with both girls, and both girls enable his delusions in some ways, Tifa refuses to refute Clouds fake persona. Even so, she's symbolic of who he actually is, the person he's running away from, she is reality.
With Aerith he's literally living out his delusion of being Zack's living legacy, a cliché fantasy of being a powerful hero soldier out to save the magical girl, she is fantasy.

However, then reality hits like a freight train, Sephiroth kils Aerith, and Cloud, even now, even as a soldier, once again, fails to save anyone. He is no different, it's Nibleheim all over again. His delusions weren't real.
Cloud loses his grip on what is reality and what is fantasy, not knowing who he is he is taken over by Sephiroth, hands him the black Materia, and falls into the lifestream.
This is ZaClouds final act.

Now throughout act 2, we've seen Clouds psyche break down. And both Aerith and Tifa are put in a position where they have to make a choice in their heart concerning Cloud, what he means to them, and what they are to him. For Aerith, this happens near the end of act 2.

Cloud gives the Black materia to Sephiroth at the temple of the ancients, and proceeds to violently beat Aerith. Afterwards Cloud has a vision of Aerith running away from him, going where he can't follow, and telling him to take care. When Cloud wakes up, Aerith is gone. While Aerith doesn't blame Cloud for beating her, she realizes that she can't take on the burden of saving the planet and Cloud as well. She realizes that she'd been selfish, doing Cloud a disservice by bringing him along on a quest that clearly was having a toll on him mentally. She realizes that she shouldn't have been relying on him and burdening him with her past. She'd been trying to save him, thinking that was her role, the Zack connection made her think that Clouds broken identity was "their story", but now acknowledged that she didn't really know who he was and that perhaps, her desire to see Zack again made her insert herself into a story that perhaps, was about someone else.

Aerith is put in a position where she has to make a choice, between going off and saving the planet, leaving Clouds fate in the hands of others, or staying with Cloud, and letting other people go and save the planet. She chooses to go save the planet. This is her vital decision within the story, the decision that defines what her part in the play is. This decision directly results in her resolving the external conflict of the game by summoning holy and stopping meteor, additionally, by dying, and therefore having her "reunion" with Zackher character arc is brought full circle.
She discovers the truth about Cloud, her confusion lifts, and she finally understands how she, Cloud, Tifa, and Zack, fit into each others stories, and in a way, Zacks promise has been upheld, through ZaCloud, Aerith was able to spend a little more time with him.
Aeriths choice has cemented her role as the heroine of the external conflict of FFVII.

Qeue, act 3:

However, the game goes on, Cloud breaks down, and we are treated with a strangely familiar scene mirroring the one we had with Aerith in the forest of the ancients.
Cloud once again hands the black materia to sephiroth, we then see a vision of Cloud running away from Tifa into darkness, going where she presumably can't follow. We see Tifas backstory, we see the doubt and fear in her heart, and the conflict she's feeling about the truth of who Cloud is. She finds Cloud, poisoned with Mako, completely catatonic, and is forced to make the same choice that Aerith was forced to make in the city of the ancients.

Should she stay with Cloud, and leave the fate of the world in the hands of the others, or should she leave Cloud, and go save the planet. And opposite of Aerith, Tifa decides her place is at Clouds side. Before even entering the life stream she decides in her heart that whatever happened to this man in front of her, that it happened to her as well, that it's "their story", that Cloud isn't going through hard times, THEY are going through hard times.
This is her vital decision in the story, the decision that defines what her part in the play is, as a direct result of this, she falls into the lifesteam, enters Clouds sub-concious, and resolves Clouds inner struggle by retracing who he is, and what makes Cloud Cloud. The plotpoint of the promise is resolved when it is discovered that Cloud came for her in Nibleheim, that they did go through that together, that it was always "their story". That from the beginning, the person who had set it all in motion for Cloud, and was the one person who could resolve it, was Tifa, through the feelings he had locked inside his heart, for "Tifa Lockheart".
Tifas choice cements her role as the Heroine of the internal conflict of FFVII.

Cloud is restored, he realizes and accepts that he's not Zack, that he can't do it alone, and together with and through his friends he finds the strength to defeat Sephiroth as a result of his internal struggle being overcome.

So both Tifa and Aerith are the heroine in their own way.

You should re-post it here:

https://thelifestream.net/forums/th...pt-no-its-exactly-like-new-coke.22509/page-89

You'll eventually get an edit button.
 

odekopeko

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Peko
I think Shokotan is genuinely CA, but loves Tifa so much and basically turns into "Aerith" whenever she sees Cloti scenes, haha. When the wifi cut off, she was joking about the Feelers/Whispers messing with her connection, trying not to let her watch Tifa's route because they don't want Cloud to "cheat".

But after seeing the scene, in all that excitement, she said she never imagined Cloud, who has a hard time communicating with women, hugging someone so passionately like that. She's like, "this is a historic moment for Cloud," haha. Oh, god, this was exactly how I reacted in this scene. I'm so embarrassed for myself.
 

minami758

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Miiwoo
But after seeing the scene, in all that excitement, she said she never imagined Cloud, who has a hard time communicating with women, hugging someone so passionately like that. She's like, "this is a historic moment for Cloud," haha. Oh, god, this was exactly how I reacted in this scene. I'm so embarrassed for myself.

Haha it's nice to see people who're fans of the other ship see the merits of CT in the Remake, generally it's a fight to the bottom. SE has really developed Cloud and Tifa's relationship so well in this first part.
 
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