• Due to datamining of the demo files, substantial leaks are now everywhere. As a reminder, some of these are in-development screenshots and may point to events that aren't going to be in the final game. Some of them are clearly going to be in the game. The TLS stance is this: Any thread which will contain discussion on the leaked images/ details must clearly contain [SPOILERS] within the title. Anything within those threads does not need to be spoiler tagged. Any POST anywhere on the board containing spoilers must be spoiler tagged or it will be removed and warned. Please report this where you see it. Let's try to make sure everyone can still freely post until everyone has a chance to play this game please!

FFVII CHARACTER SMACKDOWN - The Neutrals Championship

Right: Chloe versus Gillian Hewley

In the blue corner: Gillian Hewley, a sad grey-haired old woman, crippled with regrets after a lifetime of bad choices, whose own son thinks she should die. This woman is suicidal. Is she really going to put up a fight? Has she ever put up a fight? Or will she welcome her longed-for release from the painful continuation of her burdensome existence?

In the gold corner: Chocobo Chloe, a cheerful young girl with her whole life before her. She's got strong muscles from all those years hefting bales of hay and wrangling chocobos. She's full of joie de vivre. Plus, she's grown up on a farm, and farm kids are never sentimental about death: she knows how to put a sad old animal out of its misery quickly and kindly.
 
AKA
Fancy

BRUH! Are you gonna just take that Team Moogle???

Let the record show that the battle phase of Round 1-4 was initiated by Team Chocobo on 16th May, 16:19 GMT.

All players have until...
18th May, 16:19 GMT
...to sway their spectators.

Here's a link to a time zone converter in case anyone needs it.

Best of luck!

 

Channy

Bad Habit
AKA
Ruby Rose, Lucy
I know you’re supposed to say age before beauty but I’m sorry, ChocoChloe will rip Gillian to shreds. I mean yes she was an experimental host but Chloe has the spunk, the pinache, to take her cane away from Gillian and trip the old woman down some stairs, finally ending her. It’s a mercy killing, really.
 

Ergo

Sugar Honey Ice & Tea
AKA
Ergo, V
Interesting points I'll admit but allow me to counter with the following.
Gillian may in fact be old but her cells contain that of jenova, if not for her suicide what's not to say that she would have remained in an immortal state such as lucrecia after her own body was injected with the same.jenova cells?
These cells as we have seen allow for far more than prolonged life they allow for a wide array of mutations. Gillian alone was a brilliant geneticist prior to being injected with the cells and her intellect was sought after well after she left the projects by both genesis and Hollander meaning she still retains her wits even as she resigns herself into solitude.

It was stated that she was depressed and her suicide was a good enough reason to prove that she would lose in a battle but let's look at this from another angle. Gillian felt shame from her work on the project, she was proud of Angeal, yet knew that bybtoyingbwith jenova cells he would never love the life she wanted for her son. She also knew how truly dangerous genesis was. In her final days she is approached by both genesis and Hollander to help find a cure for genesis degredation. Instead of giving in and continuing her research she bravely decides to end her own life as to not prolong the atrocities that may occur is genesis is left to live.

In contrast we have Chloe, who's life achievements have surmounted to shovelling chocohoe shit on a sun kissed farm never knowing what pain truly means. She may be younger but dealing with the psychological implications of war that would be detailed within godos house may cause her to lose her nerve whereas Gillian lived through countless atrocities and lived until she chose to end her own life on her own terms.

Could our chocohoe face the same decision and muster the strength to see things through? Or would she choke under the pressure and return back to the farm to count her lucky chocohoe?
 

Channy

Bad Habit
AKA
Ruby Rose, Lucy
If you’re instigating that shoveling shit the size of moogles isnt traumatizing then you haven’t truly lived sir.

Out young girl braces against the weather to rescue her meandering chocobos. She has to deal with thugs trying to steal them from the farm. She has to pull stillborn chocochicks from their mothers womb so the mother is also not a casualty. She may be young but she is fierce.

Gillian on the other hand, is a coward. This battle is already lost. Her first thought to escape this life and she took it. The cowards way. You will not find an honourable soldier who hasn’t thought of taking his own life but what would that mean? Everything was in vain then. Gillian wouldn’t even find the courage much less the strength to lift a sword and defend herself against our Chloe.
 
Gillian killed herself in a very specific situation where her entire village and everything she loved was destroyed by the experiments she created. Chloe (it was Chole in my game?) can't replicate that. So being suicidal isn't on the table here, leaving Chloe attempting to face someone Mako durable without the support of her family that she has always relied on for everything up to now. She's alone in a completely unfamiliar environment, with no Chocobos or family to help her.

She's not on a livestock farm, she's on a farm for high end racing birds owned by other people. She can't euthanise them even if she wanted to, and she likely has a strong bond with individual birds.

Much like Cloud's Mom, Gillian needs skills in combat just to deal with the local monsters, while Chole can run away from all battles on Chocobo back. Notably, the farm doesn't catch birds itself, (because that would require combat) but asks customers to catch their own.
 
I don't think we can say being suicidal isn't on the table. Gillian was suicidal back in Gongaga Banora [fixed], she wouldn't suddenly stop being suicidal if she was whisked off to Wutai for a wrestling match.

She's not on a livestock farm, she's on a farm for high end racing birds owned by other people. She can't euthanise them even if she wanted to, and she likely has a strong bond with individual birds.
People are constantly bringing them poor and weak chocobos. Of course Chloe has been involved in putting them down. And what about all those unwanted chicks that have to be 'reset'? On a farm, everybody mucks in. Moreover, you're assuming that chocobos are the only animals on their farm, which is very unlikely to be true. At the very least they'll have dogs, cats, and the usual vermin which need to be dealt with.

Gillian certainly would have needed combat skills in Gongaga - if she ever left her house, but unfortunately her suicidal depression stops her from doing that. The shock of being transported from her refuge full of memories to a strange bedroom on the other side of the world might alone be enough to render her catatonic.
 
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Channy

Bad Habit
AKA
Ruby Rose, Lucy
Quite frankly the only weapon Gillian would even bring herself to lift, would be for ending her own life. Chloe is the clear winner.
 

Ergo

Sugar Honey Ice & Tea
AKA
Ergo, V
Your entire defence over your character being better is the fact that Gillian commited suicide. Your argument has no validity other than this one fact and in the spirit of these battles the suicide would be a null point anyway.

Gillian is a genius geneticist with monster genes. Working on the hypothetical she has the ability to turn into a monster by triggering her jenova cells much like hojo does in Midgar. If a battle were to commence between the two Gillian has the superior mind and could easily analyse any situation that the chocobo handler could think up and then turn it against her.

The only accomplishments that the chocobo breeder has is that she gets paid a lot of Gil to play Barry White to giant birds then watch them go at it in the hope that their colours change.
 
AKA
Fancy



Oi, I wager that this is our most intense match so far. The arguments on both sides are so strong!

Friendly reminder to players that as of the 17th May, 16:20 GMT, you have less than 24 hours to sway Spectators.

Here's a link to a time zone converter in case anyone needs it.

Keep on keepin’ on!

 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
Chloe is the one with an eye for accurately judging a Chocobo running speed, sprinting speed, stamina and intelligence, she gained these talents training racing Chocobos all her life. Gillian has likely never seen Jenova outside of the petri dish the cells they were given to work with. She's an old woman who has no practical field experience in anything other then selfharm.

Chloe is part of a family that manages a big farm alone, surrounded by monsters. They grow and harvest the plants and trees that produce the many and varied greens and nuts that can be fed to a Chocobo, this is a sizable track of land that needs defending from monsters for their livelihood.

Banora as a whole was charged by Shinra to keep Gillian and her son around and obviously, alive for monitoring. She never truly left the care of Shinra's sheltering embrace until Genesis returned to the village. If forced into a brawl with one and other, the difference in their lives would come forward, and Chloe would tear a new one. She wants to live more and knows how to fight for it.
 

Channy

Bad Habit
AKA
Ruby Rose, Lucy
Your entire defence over your character being better is the fact that Gillian commited suicide. Your argument has no validity other than this one fact and in the spirit of these battles the suicide would be a null point anyway.
It’s funny you talk of spirit when, having thought and committed suicide, it clearly shows that Gillian has none. She has no will to fight, to live, to persevere. There is no battle because Gillian can’t even summon the courage and strength to fight on.
 
Your entire defence over your character being better is the fact that Gillian commited suicide. Your argument has no validity other than this one fact and in the spirit of these battles the suicide would be a null point anyway.
I will grant you the suicide is a null point, but not the state of mind which led to it.

Gillian is a genius geneticist with monster genes. Working on the hypothetical she has the ability to turn into a monster by triggering her jenova cells much like hojo does in Midgar. If a battle were to commence between the two Gillian has the superior mind and could easily analyse any situation that the chocobo handler could think up and then turn it against her.
Gillian profoundly regrets having involved herself and, still worse, her child in the Jenova experiments. This bad decision tainted every aspect of her life. Her regrets are so deep that both she and her son agreed only suicide could atone for her errors. This being the case, do you really intend to put Gillian, with her absolute commitment to being human, to humane-ness, on a par with Hojo, who'll inject anybody with anything if he think it'll give him an interesting result? No - I say Gillian's nature would prevent her from ever making use of whatever Jenova powers she possesses. She would rather die than be a monster. She would certainly choose death over becoming the kind of monster than would use unearthly powers to destroy a young girl just starting out in life. You know what they say: the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

The only accomplishments that the chocobo breeder has is that she gets paid a lot of Gil to play Barry White to giant birds then watch them go at it in the hope that their colours change.
So not all that different from Gillian's role in the Jenova experiments, then.
 

Ergo

Sugar Honey Ice & Tea
AKA
Ergo, V
Your entire defence over your character being better is the fact that Gillian commited suicide. Your argument has no validity other than this one fact and in the spirit of these battles the suicide would be a null point anyway.
It’s funny you talk of spirit when, having thought and committed suicide, it clearly shows that Gillian has none. She has no will to fight, to live, to persevere. There is no battle because Gillian can’t even summon the courage and strength to fight on.

I talked about the spirit of the battle, something which you have totally ignored in your reply :P

Once again both replies hone in on her suicide yet provide no other motion as to why she would lose in a battle. Mins to briefly talked on my previous pints relating to the jenova cells.
Gillian was working alongside Dr Holland to try and overtake Gast/hojo in their own research, her knowledge at this time is extremely close to that of hojos as we can see by the fact that she not only injected jenova cells into her own unborn son but also then provided her own infected cells into the womb for genesis to be created.

This also proves why she is the better choice, with her own cells she created two entities that match that of the greatest SOLDIER in recorded history. In fact there is the age old argument that is genesis hadn't been degrading he may have in fact been more powerful than sephiroth but that's for another discussion.

This entire period of life she was focused and we can see from her extensive documented past that she is extremely skilled. What do we actually know about this chocobo handler? She works on a farm. She may or may not do manual labour? She may or may not deal with death of animals? The mere fact there is no definitives prove to the fact that she isn't the best choice between the two. At best the opposition are grasping at the same weak argument about Gillian's suicide to hide behind the fact their own candidate has no redeemable qualities that would set her above Gillian.
 
Your entire defence over your character being better is the fact that Gillian commited suicide. Your argument has no validity other than this one fact and in the spirit of these battles the suicide would be a null point anyway.
It’s funny you talk of spirit when, having thought and committed suicide, it clearly shows that Gillian has none. She has no will to fight, to live, to persevere. There is no battle because Gillian can’t even summon the courage and strength to fight on.

I talked about the spirit of the battle, something which you have totally ignored in your reply :P
It's hard to see how someone could have the spirit to battle when they haven't got the will to live, but if you can explain it, I'll be interested to hear it.


Once again both replies hone in on her suicide yet provide no other motion as to why she would lose in a battle. Mins to briefly talked on my previous pints relating to the jenova cells.
Gillian was working alongside Dr Holland to try and overtake Gast/hojo in their own research, her knowledge at this time is extremely close to that of hojos as we can see by the fact that she not only injected jenova cells into her own unborn son but also then provided her own infected cells into the womb for genesis to be created.

This also proves why she is the better choice, with her own cells she created two entities that match that of the greatest SOLDIER in recorded history. In fact there is the age old argument that is genesis hadn't been degrading he may have in fact been more powerful than sephiroth but that's for another discussion.
I thought I made it clear that she would lose because she would not care to win. The reasons why she would not care to win have, I think, now been well-established, but I can repeat them if need be.

So let's get this straight: Gillian got herself involve in the Jenova project, she willingly worked with those two grade-A wankers Hollanders and Gast, she agreed to inject non-human genetic material into herself despite the consequences of said injection being untested or at least unknown, and she used her own unborn child as an experimental sample - and all this is proof of her skill and intelligence?

Isn't it rather the case that, like Lucretia, she was recruited as a rent-a-womb because she was expendable? Hojo didn't exactly rate Lucretia's scientific credentials very highly, did he? The reason she made a good mother for his project was because she was so desperately ambitious, she would cross any line in order to make a name for herself in science. Was Gillian so different? I really don't think we can claim that involvement in the Jenova project is a sign of intelligence - or at least, it's not a sign of wisdom.

The fact that she is the mother/genetic donor for Angeal and Genesis is neither here nor there, since they haven't come with her to this smackdown and can't give her any help.

This entire period of life she was focused and we can see from her extensive documented past that she is extremely skilled.
Do we know this for sure? Do we really? See my point above about Gillian being expendable.

What do we actually know about this chocobo handler? She works on a farm. She may or may not do manual labour? She may or may not deal with death of animals? The mere fact there is no definitives prove to the fact that she isn't the best choice between the two. At best the opposition are grasping at the same weak argument about Gillian's suicide to hide behind the fact their own candidate has no redeemable qualities that would set her above Gillian.
If she works on a farm, she does manual labour. If she works on a farm, she deals with the death of animals. That what working on a livestock farm means.
 
If we're assuming Gillian is taken directly from the massacre of Banora, that puts Chloe at like seven years old.

Poor and weak Chocobos are only relevant to racing, they can survive fine. Randomly euthanising other people's property isn't the mark of a well run farm. The dogs and cats take care of the vermin.

Gillian certainly would have needed combat skills in Gongaga - if she ever left her house, but unfortunately her suicidal depression stops her from doing that.
She was not generally suicidal, that was an effect of the immediate aftermath of the village massacre. I'd be pretty surprised if she couldn't handle a sword, given the whole 'symbol of family honour' thing. Suicidal at one very specific point =/= suicidal in general.

They grow and harvest the plants and trees that produce the many and varied greens and nuts that can be fed to a Chocobo, this is a sizable track of land that needs defending from monsters for their livelihood.
We see no vegetable patch, they could just as easily buy them in.

This being the case, do you really intend to put Gillian, with her absolute commitment to being human, to humane-ness, on a par with Hojo, who'll inject anybody with anything if he think it'll give him an interesting result?
She has the skills of Hojo, not his ethics. She wasn't an innocent bystander in the project, she was heavily involved, and has the same Mako durability that Lucrecia had, rendering her difficult to overpower or kill. Against Chloe's farm work with no known skills except a good eye for Chocobos?

Banora as a whole was charged by Shinra to keep Gillian and her son around and obviously, alive for monitoring. She never truly left the care of Shinra's sheltering embrace until Genesis returned to the village.
Shinra completely forgot about the place. They weren't protecting it, they had no way of verifying whether Genesis' parents were lying except sending Tseng in a chopper.

As my Learned Colleague has outlined, the entire argument hangs on Gillian's suicide and that this entails generally low spirits. If anything, being removed from the site of the massacre is likely to lift Gillian's spirits, while Chole is likely to be overcome and rendered vulnerable by thoughts of 'what the hell am I doing here? How do I get home?'

Rented wombs do not need to be high level scientists. If that was all they were, the Turks or the Corneos could have just kidnapped/bribed/whatever people by the dozens. Lucrecia merited a personal bodyguard before she was ever pregnant.

Livestock is still not the same as racing birds.

We're really dealing with the heavy stuff here, huh? Suicide, Ethical experimentation, sexism in the STEM field, human trafficking (again)
 
AKA
Fancy
^Speaking of suicide.

I’ve just gone through the posts, and I kindly ask that players please try and refrain from bringing up the subject matter. I ask that players especially refrain from suggesting in any way, shape, or form that Gillian’s being suicidal is a reflection of weak character. It’s a symptom of a mental illness, not one’s ‘weak will’. :)

I normally keep myself from dictating arguments, but in this case, I believe it absolutely necessary to step in and say something. As we all know, we have members on the forum (and possibly outsiders tuning in) who have a history of depression and struggling with suicidal thoughts. I fear that the handling of the subject matter thus far could prove upsetting and/or triggering to those possible readers and members.

I sincerely apologise to those who have already been made upset by this round for not keeping a closer eye on things and mentioning something earlier.

Thank you all very much and do carry on! :properhug:
 
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Channy

Bad Habit
AKA
Ruby Rose, Lucy
Yeah that’s definitely my bad. I kept meaning to put a disclaimer at the end of a post noting that this wasn’t how I really felt in he matter and am just getting caught up in the heat of debate.

i feel like a shit now
 
If we're assuming Gillian is taken directly from the massacre of Banora, that puts Chloe at like seven years old.
I was assuming we take each of them at the point where we meet them in their respective games. It's not as if this tournament is realistic; otherwise, we could get bogged down at when exactly on the timeline each match takes place, and that really isn't a productive line of argument.

Poor and weak Chocobos are only relevant to racing, they can survive fine. Randomly euthanising other people's property isn't the mark of a well run farm. The dogs and cats take care of the vermin.
No one suggested the farm randomly puts animals down, but all farms have to do it sometimes. Chocobo management on the planet seems to involve allow the animals to breed in the wild, and it would be poor management if they released poor specimens back into the wild to reproduce. Dogs and cats may take care of the vermin but who takes care of the dogs and cats? Who drowns the unwanted kittens? Life on a farm is lived close to nature, and anyone who works on a farm is familiar with death.

Gillian certainly would have needed combat skills in Gongaga - if she ever left her house, but unfortunately her suicidal depression stops her from doing that.

She was not generally suicidal, that was an effect of the immediate aftermath of the village massacre. I'd be pretty surprised if she couldn't handle a sword, given the whole 'symbol of family honour' thing. Suicidal at one very specific point =/= suicidal in general.
There's an awful lot of guesswork and unfounded supposition here.

They grow and harvest the plants and trees that produce the many and varied greens and nuts that can be fed to a Chocobo, this is a sizable track of land that needs defending from monsters for their livelihood.
We see no vegetable patch, they could just as easily buy them in.
They could, or they could not. We really don't know either way. What we do know is that any work on a farm involves a lot of heavy labour, and as a healthy young person on a busy livestock farm Chloe would have been expected to pull her weight.


This being the case, do you really intend to put Gillian, with her absolute commitment to being human, to humane-ness, on a par with Hojo, who'll inject anybody with anything if he think it'll give him an interesting result?
She has the skills of Hojo, not his ethics. She wasn't an innocent bystander in the project, she was heavily involved, and has the same Mako durability that Lucrecia had, rendering her difficult to overpower or kill. Against Chloe's farm work with no known skills except a good eye for Chocobos?
If she has the same mako durability as Lucretia, can you explain why she didn't end up being forced to seal herself away in a crystal? You're reiterating my point that she didn't have Hojo ethics, and since she had better ethics than Hojo, she is hardly about to turn herself into a monster or utilise her Jenova abilities in a fight. Such an action would have been utterly morally repellent to her and a betrayal of her deepest values.

There's a lot of headcanon in here. We know that Gillian worked for the Jenova project, but in what exact capacity, we don't know. We don't know that her skills were on a par with Hojo's.


Banora as a whole was charged by Shinra to keep Gillian and her son around and obviously, alive for monitoring. She never truly left the care of Shinra's sheltering embrace until Genesis returned to the village.

Shinra completely forgot about the place. They weren't protecting it, they had no way of verifying whether Genesis' parents were lying except sending Tseng in a chopper.
They sent Tseng and Zack to find out what had happened to the previous Turks stationed there, and why there was radio silence. The whole village worked for Shinra; Genesis eliminated them all, which was what triggered the investigation.

As my Learned Colleague has outlined, the entire argument hangs on Gillian's suicide and that this entails generally low spirits. If anything, being removed from the site of the massacre is likely to lift Gillian's spirits, while Chole is likely to be overcome and rendered vulnerable by thoughts of 'what the hell am I doing here? How do I get home?'
This whole line of inquiry is now hors de combat.

Rented wombs do not need to be high level scientists. If that was all they were, the Turks or the Corneos could have just kidnapped/bribed/whatever people by the dozens. Lucrecia merited a personal bodyguard before she was ever pregnant.
Vincent was the resident Turk in charge of the security of the entire operation. He wasn't Lucretia's personal bodyguard. You're exactly right that rented wombs don't have to be high level scientists. What they have to be is willing and expendable. The fact that Gillian was selected to be Angeal's mother is no proof that she was an important scientist.

Livestock is still not the same as racing birds.
Livestock = stock that is alive. On a cattle farm that would be cattle, on a pig farm, pigs, on a chocobo farm, chocobos. Racing horses are livestock.

We're really dealing with the heavy stuff here, huh? Suicide, Ethical experimentation, sexism in the STEM field, human trafficking (again)]quote]
Yes, this tournament is really bringing to the fore all the themes in the game. Interesting!
 

BforB

Too Angry™
AKA
B
^Speaking of suicide.

I’ve just gone through the posts, and I kindly ask that players please try and restrain from bringing up the subject matter. I ask that players especially restrain from suggesting in any way, shape, or form that Gillian’s being suicidal is a reflection of weak character. It’s a symptom of a mental illness, not one’s ‘weak will’. :)

I normally keep myself from dictating arguments, but in this case, I believe it absolutely necessary to step in and say something. As we all know, we have members on the forum (and possibly outsiders tuning in) who have a history of depression and struggling with suicidal thoughts. I fear that the handling of the subject matter thus far could prove upsetting and/or triggering to those possible readers and members.

I sincerely apologise to those who have already been made upset by this round for not keeping a closer eye on things and mentioning something earlier.

Thank you all very much and do carry on! :properhug:
Thanks, Fancy. I’d like to apologise to my teammates for not being able to participate in the smackdown this round. I hadn’t really had a chance to sit down to thoroughly go through everything, but I was also very uncomfortable and rather upset with the way the subject matter had been brought up and the ongoing implications that the character’s suicide was one of the her shortcomings. I understand that what’s being discussed isn’t necessarily within the realm of reality, but I think it was a really inappropriate approach and thus I was reluctant to participate, even as the opposition to this argument. TLS is otherwise a very considerate and welcoming space and I want this smackdown to continue to be enjoyed, with the humour, creativity and pizzazz as it has been, by everybody.

This is my two cents. Thanks, everyone. See you next round. :)
 
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