SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[Roger]

They can still showcase changes, I agree that there will be and am all for it.

What I'm confused about is the point or purpose of an alternate timeline/universe. How does that play out within the narrative or next game? If the Whispers are gone, Sephiroth lost his power up with them, and "Destiny" have been removed from the equation, what does the AU do?

Is the next game going to be called, "Final Fantasy VII: Sliders" and Cloud, Aerith, Tifa, Barret, and Red XIII discover they've walked out of the Singularity into the wrong universe, and now they have to keep trying to pry open singularities in space-time so that they can hope to make their way back home?

I just don't understand what the AU concept brings to the table other than an explanation of how Zack is walking away from a fight with grunts.

People like Zack, and this is a way to give him a happy ending. It gives hope that in this timeline where they've thrown off the shackles of fate that led them to the horrid future that is Advent Children, Aerith can (but probably won't) share his fortune.

 

[Jairus]

And the trio as well. They were originally destined to die, but we know for certain that Biggs is alive. It follows that Jessie and Wedge could be, too, especially since the scene clearly showed Jessie's glove on the dresser and the three pencils in the cup, one for each of them. Implying their survival and return, if we're fortunate. Only one glove was shown, though, which makes you wonder where the other one is. Jessie was wearing both when she died, before the Whispers were defeated and things began to change.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

The thing I possibly hate most of all in a fairly long list of things I hate about the Remake (though it's balanced by things I love) is the hint that Aerith is aware of her fate as a human sacrifice and will, ultimately, willingly embrace it. "It won't work if she isn't willing". I hope those aren't prophetic words.

Destiny could be changed, seems to be the message (and tbh I think perhaps they are trying to hint that maybe Aerith won't have to die this time around), but it musn't be changed, or the mission will fail and the planet will die. I don't know exactly what message about life, the universe and everything we were meant to infer from Wedge not dying at the Platefall only to be thrown out of the Shinra building by ringwraiths, but whatever it was, it was trite.

The characters in the OG made their own fate. This lot are being herded along like sheep, and the Whispers are the sheepdogs.

A core theme of the OG was coming to terms with the finality of loss: mourning, adusting, using their memory as inspiration, fighting on. Life is for the living. But in the Remake, clearly, nobody really dies. Hell, practically the whole of Sector 7 survived the plate drop. The OG's exploration of real, true, painful emotions has been replaced by cheap sentimentalism and a Disnified morality.

 

[Makoeyes987]

But we don't see Zack's timeline anymore. It's gone. The symbolic ending shows us the heroes literally crossing paths with Zack from across time, unable to interact with him, being unable to see him, and Aerith sensing him with a look of dread/worry. That doesn't offer hope of a happy ending or a meeting. In fact, it implies that they're moving further away from each other.

That's what I don't get about this read/fixation on the chip bag or the prospect of an AU. It flies in the face of the direct symbolism of the totality of the ending. That's not indicative of happiness or Zack coming back. It shows the heroes moving away from the past into the unknown, and Aerith realizing that she's leaving behind something important, and even sensing something very worrying.

And the trio as well. They were originally destined to die, but we know for certain that Biggs is alive. It follows that Jessie and Wedge could be, too, especially since the scene clearly showed Jessie's glove on the dresser and the three pencils in the cup, one for each of them. Implying their survival and return, if we're fortunate. Only one glove was shown, though, which makes you wonder where the other one is. Jessie was wearing both when she died, before the Whispers were defeated and things began to change.

You're putting the cart before the horse. We only know Biggs is alive. Just because Jessie's glove and bandanna are on his desk doesn't indicate she's alive. That just means her glove and bandanna are on his desk, her being alive isn't required for those to be there. And Wedge certainly isn't implied to just be alive and well somewhere out there. He says his last words from the OG before being violently pushed out the glass of a 50+ story elevator shaft.

This lot are being herded along like sheep, and the Whispers are the sheepdogs.

The sheep have killed their sheepdogs here, so I don't think the comparison applies. That was the result of them beating them in the end.

 

[oty]

I agree with Mako's sentiment. AU stuff is just...weird. And that's saying something. It's extremely improbable that the next game somehow entails the cast discovering themselves in a new world, or the "other timeline" hopping and interfering on this timeline. And if the other timeline is just a simple nod to a what if scenario, that wont be expanded atleast significantly, then we shouldnt be bothered by it since it wont actually interfere on this timeline by any means.

 

[Tetsujin]

I was under the impression that it's a symbol of this timeline changing. I don't see any alternate/parallel timeline stuff being used either.
Of course that would raise the question of where Zack went after he and Cloud reached Midgar but, well. That is for future parts to explore if he is truly meant to be alive.

 

[Roger]

But we don't see Zack's timeline anymore. It's gone. The symbolic ending shows us the heroes literally crossing paths with Zack from across time, unable to interact with him, being unable to see him, and Aerith sensing him with a look of dread/worry. That doesn't offer hope of a happy ending or a meeting. In fact, it implies that they're moving further away from each other.

They are, sure. Zack is still trucking, away from the place we know him to die. After surviving the Shinra onslaught and picking up Cloud again, destroying what happened in the Crisis Core this follows right up until the point destiny was defeated. How little is gained by this in your eyes doesn't change that.

You're putting the cart before the horse. We only know Biggs is alive. Just because Jessie's glove and bandanna are on his desk doesn't indicate she's alive. That just means her glove and bandanna are on his desk, her being alive isn't required for those to be there. And Wedge certainly isn't implied to just be alive and well somewhere out there. He says his last words from the OG before being violently pushed out the glass of a 50+ story elevator shaft.

I DEFINITELY never saw Wedge die in my game. Certainly no more or less then he died at the pillar.

The sheep have killed their sheepdogs here, so I don't think the comparison applies. That was the result of them beating them in the end.

The sheep needed their sheepdogs to be kept on the path of the OG game as much as possible in this new expansive world up till this point. Why would that not be the case when leaving Midgar?

 

[Makoeyes987]

If you introduce an AU, then the natural endpoint is to use it or visit it. It's like Chekov's gun. How would that even work, or fit the form or function of the game itself?

If the AU is introduced to merely be fanservice and showcase Zack being alive in an AU thanks to the heroes, okay. That happened. Then what? That also has ramifications for what his AU will even lead to, seeing as how there's a hot mess waiting for Zack in that new future then. And if all they wanted to do was show a happy AU with Zack being alive, they technically already did that with Kingdom Hearts Birth By Sleep

It doesn't lead anywhere. It just shows "a" Zack, surviving beyond his point of death and then that's it. I mean, that has no contextual purpose or reason, and it's the waste of an explicitly monumental disclosure of a concept like an AU.

And you didn't see a body. Wedge is presumed to not survive a fall of that height unless intervention occurred. There's no evidence of said intervention so unless evidence appears to contradict such an assumption, Wedge is presumed dead.

I was under the impression that it's a symbol of this timeline changing. I don't see any alternate/parallel timeline stuff being used either.
Of course that would raise the question of where Zack went after he and Cloud reached Midgar but, well. That is for future parts to explore if he is truly meant to be alive.

Then that would open an even larger can of graboid sandworms that I can't even begin to wrap my head around.

Why would Zack be walking around without his pride and dreams? Why would Cloud have been left behind to just assume Zack's role and sword? Why did Tifa find him and ask him for help? Why would Zack not have made a bee line for Aerith?

This straight up becomes a complete Paradox Universe, with Zack's Buster Sword being an Artifact, and there being a completely unstable timeline due to the Unseen Chaos having corroded the entirety of space-time. Should we expect gates to the Historia Crux, next?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

"The sheep have killed their sheepdogs here, so I don't think the comparison applies. That was the result of them beating them in the end." The wording of this sentence is unclear to me. To whom does each 'them' refer?

I just don't get why SE felt it necessary to introduce even the slightest suggestion that things could be different this time around. As far as I can tell, the suggestion is "things could be different... but they won't be." OK, fine, so why mention it? Why not just retell your marvellous story without adding all this half-baked and banal mumbo jumbo?

 

[oty]

I mean...the only way they could (try to) explain Zack being alive and this timeline's events still existing is if they go hard in some theoretical paradoxical wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff that somehow, due to the change in the course of time (or fate whatever) by unnatural means, both the original timeline and the changes, that would normally spawn a new timeline, can coexist at the same reality. That is just....wild. I dont think KH reached that level of hardcore time travel. Specially since KH dealed with actual timetravel as in physical one, and this one seems more "magical" than anything else.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Zack's still alive. Sephiroth is still alive. Biggs, Wedge and Jessie are still alive. President Shinra is still alive. Everybody in Sector 7 is still alive. The Gongaga reactor never exploded. Elvis is still alive. Myrna is still waiting for Barret back in Corel and Mr Gainsborough will turn up at the train station one of these days.

 

[Roger]

If you introduce an AU, then the natural endpoint is to use it or visit it. It's like Chekov's gun. How would that even work, or fit the form or function of the game itself?

If the AU is introduced to merely be fanservice and showcase Zack being alive in an AU thanks to the heroes, okay. That happened. Then what? That also has ramifications for what his AU will even lead to, seeing as how there's a hot mess waiting for Zack in that new future then. And if all they wanted to do was show a happy AU with Zack being alive, they technically already did that with Kingdom Hearts Birth By Sleep

It doesn't lead anywhere. It just shows "a" Zack, surviving beyond his point of death and then that's it. I mean, that has no contextual purpose or reason, and it's the waste of an explicitly monumental disclosure of a concept like an AU.

Zack is around to show up whenever stuff wants to get all metaphysical on us, just like this ending sequence. I can't imagine it'll be anywhere close to the last of these sequences. I think you underestimare Zack fanservice as a goal in and of itself, nothing in my eyes was gained by making Advent Children about him in the new version but it still happened, but obviously, there's no putting the genie back in the bottle.

And you didn't see a body. Wedge is presumed to not survive a fall of that height unless intervention occurred. There's no evidence of said intervention so unless evidence appears to contradict such an assumption, Wedge is presumed dead.

I mean I don't remember this epic fall you are talking about. Did we see Wedge again after he was being harassed by the whispers?

 

[Tetsujin]

Why would Zack be walking around without his pride and dreams? Why would Cloud have been left behind to just assume Zack's role and sword? Why did Tifa find him and ask him for help? Why would Zack not have made a bee line for Aerith?

Maybe Zack got snatched up by the Turks and he managed to hide Cloud from them and left the sword with him or something. I feel like there's a way to get Zack out of the way to have the setup for the story remain the same but he's still alive to return for pointless dumb fanservice at some point

 

[pollenainne]

Zack is around to show up whenever stuff wants to get all metaphysical on us, just like this ending sequence. I can't imagine it'll be anywhere close to the last of these sequences. I think you underestimare Zack fanservice as a goal in and of itself, nothing in my eyes was gained by making Advent Children about him in the new version but it still happened, but obviously, there's no putting the genie back in the bottle.

I mean I don't remember this epic fall you are talking about. Did we see Wedge again after he was being harassed by the whispers?

If they want fanservice for Zack, make him playable in a "past story". They didn't have to go through lengths to make an AU for Zack. And Wedge's last words were... "I'm sorry Cloud."

 

[Makoeyes987]

"The sheep have killed their sheepdogs here, so I don't think the comparison applies. That was the result of them beating them in the end." The wording of this sentence is unclear to me.

Sephiroth absorbed the Whispers for the final battle and became "Fate" itself. He was then pushed back to the point of losing control of them. After the fight, they all explode in a flash of white light. We see this explosion from Zack's perspective, and the Whispers that surrounded the Shinra Building (that Rufus could see as well) are all gone. The Whispers that were surrounding the entirety of Midgar in a dark dome in the present are also all gone, and in it's place, the golden snow falls down. This happens in Zack's time period too. They've been blown away.

And for all those who bring up Kingdom Hearts in comparison to the speculative time travel/AU elements that exist in the Remake, the KH series' concepts for time are actually pretty solid and straightforward. More so than this. In KH, the time travel only happened when a person's heart/essence went back to the past where they existed and any time travel done did not carry over the memories obtained. Furthermore it only was used to explain the appearance of characters from the past reappearing in the present. There was never an AU/split there.

Zack is around to show up whenever stuff wants to get all metaphysical on us, just like this ending sequence. I can't imagine it'll be anywhere close to the last of these sequences. I think you underestimare Zack fanservice as a goal in and of itself, nothing in my eyes was gained by making Advent Children about him in the new version but it still happened, but obviously, there's no putting the genie back in the bottle.

I get the Zack fan service, and Zack being included in the ending at all exemplifies the fan service. A convoluted and unrealized AU explanation seems entirely superfluous; it's not needed for him to be there. Again, it's like Chekov's gun; if you show it, you use it. Zack's appearance in ACC was to encourage and give Cloud the needed strength to get back up and fight Sephiroth in a duel that was far less sanitized and far more life threatening. Aerith appeared as a ghost in that movie, alongside Zack talking to Cloud. So him appearing in the director's cut makes sense and uses him since he was already.

What I'm getting at, is if an AU only exists to showcase Zack being "alive" (although technically that wouldn't be Zack, it'd be Zack-X from another universe) and that's it, then that's a complete waste of such a heavy concept. If the AU is there, then by that train of thought, we're either visiting it, or it's coming to the heroes. It won't just be symbolic, that means the AU is going to play a role in the story.

I mean I don't remember this epic fall you are talking about. Did we see Wedge again after he was being harassed by the whispers?

Wedge was shown being blown into the Shinra elevator shaft and on the cut to black, the loud crash of glass breaking can be heard.

Maybe Zack got snatched up by the Turks and he managed to hide Cloud from them and left the sword with him or something. I feel like there's a way to get Zack out of the way to have the setup for the story remain the same but he's still alive to return for pointless dumb fanservice at some point

That still presents a plethora of issues that aren't simply handwaved away. The Turks wanted to save Zack. That's why Reno and Rude were dispatched to find them first, however they failed and the Public Security army found Zack first. If the Turks accomplished their mission of finding him, why would Zack have to be hidden so far away alone? Where would that even be? He wouldn't leave Cloud behind, nor would he leave Aerith behind, not without at least telling her he's okay and still in love with her. And he certainly would not leave his sword behind, that never happens. The entirety of Crisis Core's final act is him making a bee-line to Aerith so that he can lay low, tell her he loves her still, and take care of Cloud.

Aerith doesn't know what happened to Zack. Tseng wanted to get Zack back alive and give him the letters that Aerith wrote to him. Why would Tseng not tell Aerith he was alive when his desire was explicitly to do that? There's no way you can reconcile the story of Cloud and Aerith in FFVII with Zack just magically being alive in the same time-stream. It's not just a total contradiction. It's a paradox.

 

[Tetsujin]

That still presents a plethora of issues that aren't simply handwaved away. The Turks wanted to save Zack. That's why Reno and Rude were dispatched to find them first, however they failed and the Public Security army found Zack first. If the Turks accomplished their mission of finding him, why would Zack have to be hidden so far away alone? Where would that even be? He wouldn't leave Cloud behind, nor would he leave Aerith behind, not without at least telling her he's okay and still in love with her. And he certainly would not leave his sword behind, that never happens. The entirety of Crisis Core's final act is him making a bee-line to Aerith so that he can lay low, tell her he loves her still, and take care of Cloud.

Aerith doesn't know what happened to Zack. Tseng wanted to get Zack back alive and give him the letters that Aerith wrote to him. Why would Tseng not tell Aerith he was alive when his desire was explicitly to do that? There's no way you can reconcile the story of Cloud and Aerith in FFVII with Zack just magically being alive in the same time-stream. It's not just a total contradiction. It's a paradox.

Tune in for part 2 to find out!

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

This whole thing with the Whispers seems so garbled to me. Do you like it, Mako? I can't tell. How do you interpret them? Are we supposed to think that anything is possible now?

(I don't want anything to be possible, I just want FFVII).

I haven't got to the end, because the motorcycle chase didn't turn out well for me. Does Sephiroth force the whispers to become one with him again their will, or do they combine with him willingly? If the party have defeated him/them, does that mean they now have free will instead of predestination? I mean, we all know Sephiroth will be cropping up again repeatedly, but will he no longer be playing the role of Fate itself?

Killing Barret and then bringing him back to life was so cheap and corny. Did the game-makers actually think we'd think for one minute he was really dead? I don't know - maybe these "are they dead or aren't they?" shenanigans SE keep pulling on us are their way of spoofing the fact that this game itself won't die (just like Rufus Shinra), and as their greatest hit it keeps coming back to haunt them.

 

[Kratos]

A quick thought about The Great Stamp Debate: if meant to indicate an alternate timeline, why would a mascot change, of all things? Yes, yes, butterfly effect and all, but Zack surviving has no bearing on the already-existing design of his company’s propaganda. The crux of this timeline theory is always around Zack surviving, yet the point of divergence must have been a while before that if a company’s mascot not only changed, but changed long enough in the past for the design to be an established mascot on merchandise and stuff.

For the dog to mean anything and everything to sync up nicely, then, Zack’s survival can’t be the point of divergence, but is instead a side effect. That means Sephiroth would have needed to have changed something in the past that still led to Zack and a comatose Cloud escaping a Mako facility, but also resulted in Zack now surviving instead.

Let me say that again: in order for Zack’s survival to NOT be the point of divergence, which it can’t be if Stamp’s design is indicative of anything, whatever was changed affected nothing of substance until the specific moment of Zack’s survival.

This just leads me to think the whole thing is a red herring more than ever. Or really poorly-thought-out temporal cause and effect, which is possible, or there’s more to the changes than just Zack surviving (which is also possible, but I’m struggling to think of something that would affect the efforts of a few Shinra grunts but NOT affect his merry march to Midgar). I really think it’s being read too deep into, though.

 

[Odysseus]

Even if its not pointing to alternate realities, the different stamp must mean something. It wouldn't have been shoved in front of the camera otherwise.

 

[Theozilla]

Even if its not pointing to alternate realities, the different stamp must mean something. It wouldn't have been shoved in front of the camera otherwise.

Personally, I think going with the simplest meaning, that it's symbolizing Zack being the "original" in regards to Cloud, is the easiest Occam's Razor interpretation and such.

 

[Makoeyes987]

This whole thing with the Whispers seems so garbled to me. Do you like it, Mako? I can't tell. How do you interpret them? Are we supposed to think that anything is possible now?

I beat the game yesterday and did an extensive post about what I thought about it and it's meaning. The Tl;dr is, while I certainly wouldn't list time-janitor ghosts on a list of "Top 20 Things I Want Added to FFVII", given what they represent and have been shown to do, I don't think it's the worst thing, nor do I hate the Remake for it. I still loved the game. I certainly don't see them playing a role in anything happening next, since they've been shown to be defeated, so I'm along for seeing what they intend to do with the story now. I personally don't see them heavily deviating far from the plot either, but we'll see soon with the upcoming Ultimania. I'm very curious how the creators discuss the sequence of events in the Remake and direction of the next game.

(I don't want anything to be possible, I just want FFVII).

I haven't got to the end, because the motorcycle chase didn't turn out well for me. Does Sephiroth force the whispers to become one with him again their will, or do they combine with him willingly? If the party have defeated him/them, does that mean they now have free will instead of predestination? I mean, we all know Sephiroth will be cropping up again repeatedly, but will he no longer be playing the role of Fate itself?

I mean, that's the clash of expectations. Those who are open to something being new or different within the Remake's telling are gonna be more receptive to the end/elements. Their acceptance will be in proportion to how much they're willing to accept being changed. Those who didn't want any changes certainly aren't gonna feel good about the prospect at all.

Yeah, Sephiroth absorbs the Whispers into him after the heroes end up beating the Arbiters of Fate all up and defeating them. He uses them to seemingly advance himself to a form closer to his final one, and begins to change the course of destiny towards Meteor striking Midgar.

But then they eventually all explode in light and disappear at the end.

A quick thought about The Great Stamp Debate: if meant to indicate an alternate timeline, why would a mascot change, of all things? Yes, yes, butterfly effect and all, but Zack surviving has no bearing on the already-existing design of his company’s propaganda. The crux of this timeline theory is always around Zack surviving, yet the point of divergence must have been a while before that if a company’s mascot not only changed, but changed long enough in the past for the design to be an established mascot on merchandise and stuff.

It's like the tv show Sliders. Whenever Quinn and his group went to another universe, they observed to see if any differences existed from the one they knew and were trying to reach. If you notice traffic lights indicating "Red" for "Go" and "Green" for "Stop," you know you're in an alternate universe

For the dog to mean anything and everything to sync up nicely, then, Zack’s survival can’t be the point of divergence, but is instead a side effect. That means Sephiroth would have needed to have changed something in the past that still led to Zack and a comatose Cloud escaping a Mako facility, but also resulted in Zack now surviving instead.

Let me say that again: in order for Zack’s survival to NOT be the point of divergence, which it can’t be if Stamp’s design is indicative of anything, whatever was changed affected nothing of substance until the specific moment of Zack’s survival.

This just leads me to think the whole thing is a red herring more than ever. Or really poorly-thought-out temporal cause and effect, which is possible, or there’s more to the changes than just Zack surviving (which is also possible, but I’m struggling to think of something that would affect the efforts of a few Shinra grunts but NOT affect his merry march to Midgar). I really think it’s being read too deep into, though.

I agree, that does all make sense. I think it's a red herring as well. But I can see why it would lead one to believe it's an AU. It's different enough to make one think that they're seeing into a world that has a different history.

 

[billy22]

Killing Barret and then bringing him back to life was so cheap and corny. Did the game-makers actually think we'd think for one minute he was really dead? I don't know - maybe these "are they dead or aren't they?" shenanigans SE keep pulling on us are their way of spoofing the fact that this game itself won't die (just like Rufus Shinra), and as their greatest hit it keeps coming back to haunt them.

I felt the same. Even worse about Biggs. The guy has a death speech on the pillar, but now that I know he survives there's no reason to care about that part anymore. Don't know if Wedge is dead or not, but I don't understand why they kept him around either. They can always be killed in future parts I suppose, but it really dampens the stakes for the pillar scene.

 

[Jairus]

Except, Mako, as far as Wedge is concerned, we've been faked out about him once already when it was made to look like he had been crushed by falling debris during the plate collapse when really he hadn't. The fact that they didn't actually show him going through the glass but left the scene in black means that it's possible that what really happened is different than we might think. And for Jessie, why would only one glove be there and not both? She was wearing both in the pillar, and if she had been found, why would only one have been taken off of her? Also, remember that everything in a scene is there for a reason, and her glove is obviously a tease of her possible survival. SE knows exactly what people are going to think when they see something like that, and given her increased popularity thanks to the remake, it's very possible that she is alive.

 

[Roger]

Sephiroth absorbed the Whispers for the final battle and became "Fate" itself. He was then pushed back to the point of losing control of them. After the fight, they all explode in a flash of white light. We see this explosion from Zack's perspective, and the Whispers that surrounded the Shinra Building (that Rufus could see as well) are all gone. The Whispers that were surrounding the entirety of Midgar in a dark dome in the present are also all gone, and in it's place, the golden snow falls down. This happens in Zack's time period too. They've been blown away.

Sephiroth does not become Fate, he still wants Cloud's help to defy fate. He dies in the version of events the whispers marches the crew down as well.

I get the Zack fan service, and Zack being included in the ending at all exemplifies the fan service. A convoluted and unrealized AU explanation seems entirely superfluous; it's not needed for him to be there. Again, it's like Chekov's gun; if you show it, you use it. Zack's appearance in ACC was to encourage and give Cloud the needed strength to get back up and fight Sephiroth in a duel that was far less sanitized and far more life threatening. Aerith appeared as a ghost in that movie, alongside Zack talking to Cloud. So him appearing in the director's cut makes sense and uses him since he was already.

None of it is needed. In both versions the entire planet, which as it happens, is where Cloud's supposedly unthreatened life is located, will be destroyed, in both versions Cloud answers Sephiroth's questions with the fact that there's nothing he doesn't treasure, in the original this is precipitated by a montage of the everyone he cherishes including but not exclusively Zack, in ACC, it's Zack. Square Enix likes Zack, like doing more with Zack. Even when it kinda ruins stuff. It's not that deep. This was a nice surprise for Zack fans, it won't be the last. BUT there's no Cloud as we know him without a dead Zack so we are seeing a strained solution to this dilemma.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The only reason Wedge's previous fall was a fake out, was because we see Wedge alive and existing afterwards. For us to presume Wedge is alive, what's the evidence of Wedge being alive?

A character being pushed through an elevator shaft 59+ stories while said character repeats their final death lines from before, doesn't indicate life or survival.

Neither does their personal effects being on another person's desk.

Sephiroth does not become Fate, he still wants Cloud's help to defy fate. He dies in the version of events the whispers marches the crew down as well.

Sephiroth asking Cloud for his strength to defy destiny happened after he lost the Whispers within him. Hence why he'd ask.

None of it is needed. In both versions the entire planet, which as it happens, is where Cloud's supposedly unthreatened life is located, will be destroyed, in both versions Cloud answers Sephiroth's questions with the fact that there's nothing he doesn't treasure, in the original this is precipitated by a montage of the everyone he cherishes including but not exclusively Zack, in ACC, it's Zack. Square Enix likes Zack, like doing more with Zack. Even when it kinda ruins stuff. It's not that deep. This was a nice surprise for Zack fans, it won't be the last. BUT there's no Cloud as we know him without a dead Zack so we are seeing a strained solution to this dilemma.

It's an entirely different fight and depiction. Cloud was actually near death in ACCC after being brutally stabbed and slammed into a roof's building. It's "needed" inasmuch as the need to change the entire fight scene from before. They did it, because they wanted a higher stakes fight between Cloud and Sephiroth, and it fit the scenario because Cloud was briefly near death and facing defeat.

How you're comparing that scene addition to the introduction of an entirely new universe that has an entire divergent history from FFVII and it's only use is one scene in the ending, is not comparable at all. They can exhibit Zack fan service without introducing a Chekov's Gun and then essentially, not firing it.