FFXV story/spoiler discussion thread.

[Superespresso]

I'm just seeing FF7 lore everywhere. Also everyone run, loretime. Twilight you got a little sample of this last night so you know what we're about to get into. (Also that sounded better in my head than it did coming out.)

So first things first let's talk about this;

I don't believe the Armiger is necessarily related to kings from Solheim. Based on the way the History of Eos timeline broke things down, I also think Ardyn was born long after Solheim fell. While 2000 years in the past is still ancient relative to Noctis's time, the timeline seems to me to establish a differentiation between what it calls the "Ancient Times/Age of Myth" and the era "approximately 2000 years ago."

I seriously believe that Ardyn was born during the time of Solheim for a number of reasons. One, let's revisit the timeline established by the Ultimania-- even if it is rather lore-less.

•The ancient civilization Solheim thrives

•Its prosperity as a technological civilization includes airships and Magitek Armor.

So from what we see here, the nation of Solheim benefited from having airships and Magitek armor. From what we know of Nifelheim, Ardyn essentially bought his way in through that knowledge-- making Nifelheim the tehnological powerhouse it is today. Granted there's some Daemonic stuff going on to make it function like that, but that knowledge would have had to have come from someone of the Solheim time-- or with knowledge of ancient things in order for that to be true.

I don't believe the Armiger was a Solheim-exclusive deal, I mean, we see it in game with every king of Lucis that makes an appearance. We do see a lot of things in the timeline though that point to it being started in Solheim, or directly after its fall. Ardyn was, without a doubt the "King of Lucis who purged the 'planetscourge'" or at least contained it. That is a fairly major part of the plot.

Let's also look at a quote from the end of Chapter 13:

Unharmed by the Light. The Chosen King indeed. Allow me to regale you with a tale. In an age long past, an incurable scourge ravaged mankind. A tiny menace that twisted men into monsters, the likes which you've seen. In Lucis lived a savior that could cure the afflicted. His body would come to host myriad daemons. That countless lives be spared. But a jealous king, one not yet chosen by the Crystal, ostracized and demonized this healer of the people. Making a true monster of him. I gave you my name earlier, but you should know that it was not the name given to me at birth. Ardyn Lucis Caelum is my proper name. You'll never guess whose name Izunia was. Noct, killing you as a mortal will bring me scant satisfaction. Claim the Crystals power. Arise as its champion. Only once the Crystal and King are no more... can I know redemption. Come back soon. I shall keep your friends company until you are ready.

So, with that we can ascertain that Ardyn was at least of the Lucian time, and I have firm grounds to believe that with how many plot points fall on the timeline with Ardyn's story and himself-- that he would have most likely been the one to found Lucis itself. We don't exactly know how long the age of myth lasted, but with how broken up it is-- they're only going to tell us the important parts. It could have been days, months, years, who knows?

So with that being said we can revisit the earlier topic of Nifelheim and the Magiteks.

M.E. 722 (34 years ago)

•Ardyn Izunia enters the Niflheim Empire. He proposes the development of the Magitek Troopers

Ardyn would have had to have been from the Age of Myth in order to have this knowledge, as no one alive would have known about this. It wouldn't have just disappeared for over 2000 years only to come up now. Not to mention-- the depicted artwork of the gods and ancient legends all point to Ardyn being the first one chosen by the crystal. That's not to say that he's the first KING at all-- I still stand by the belief that he wasn't the first Solheim king, but I do believe he was the last.

So here's another thing I'd like to discuss, the crystal and magic:

".....Only one of the Lucian Royal Line may utilize this, but if packed within a magic flask, it allows the power to be shared in a psuedo manner."

Short and sweet bit because we know how I like to paraphrase to catch the majority of ideas. So in our last fight with Ardyn, we see he not only has the ability to warp, use an armiger, and use the crystal's power, but he has the ability to use magic unhindered. The only way he'd have these abilities is if he was at some point a King of Lucis, or before.

Again from the ancient era:

•As those chosen by divinity, some humans with unique attributes (special abilities) hold political authority

•Along with political power, the “King” has such powers as being able to summon weapons, and the “Oracle” has powers such as the Covenant and healing.

Thus we have overwhelming evidence that Ardyn is indeed from the ancient era and by extension, Solheim.



Bonus:

 

[Blade]

Just my two cents on Armiger in-game:

Each weapon has a story to it and a unique function, though altogether they can be devastating either with Noct alone or when he 'shares' them with his allies. Even in idle situations when NOT in use, the arms protect him from small bullets.

Noct often asks why the heck they were buried in such weird places, but it seems related to their various homelands and backstories. The most obvious burial sites being Shield of the Just and Sword of the Tall, which are treated as Tourist Landmarks.

The oddest one is Sword of the Father, which you literally get from Noct's Dad via Luna's fallen Brother. There is literally ZERO modern explanation given on how Regis got that sword or who forged it.

Interestingly enough, however, Noct's personal arms are all Engine-themed (Engine Blade/Ultima Blade/Drain Lance II/Force Stealer II), these, of course were built by Cid.

The Omen Trailer and Kingsglaive also seem to imply Regis' death was ritualistically inevitable because of the Scourge.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I seriously believe that Ardyn was born during the time of Solheim for a number of reasons. One, let's revisit the timeline established by the Ultimania-- even if it is rather lore-less.

•The ancient civilization Solheim thrives

•Its prosperity as a technological civilization includes airships and Magitek Armor.

So from what we see here, the nation of Solheim benefited from having airships and Magitek armor. From what we know of Nifelheim, Ardyn essentially bought his way in through that knowledge-- making Nifelheim the tehnological powerhouse it is today. Granted there's some Daemonic stuff going on to make it function like that, but that knowledge would have had to have come from someone of the Solheim time-- or with knowledge of ancient things in order for that to be true.

...

So with that being said we can revisit the earlier topic of Nifelheim and the Magiteks.

M.E. 722 (34 years ago)
•Ardyn Izunia enters the Niflheim Empire. He proposes the development of the Magitek Troopers

Ardyn would have had to have been from the Age of Myth in order to have this knowledge, as no one alive would have known about this. It wouldn't have just disappeared for over 2000 years only to come up now.

I think there's two overarching ways of reading all this, with various sub-notions under each. One primary interpretation entails that Solheim was prosperous before the scourge came along; the other entails that they owed their prosperity to it.

Going by either notion, though, in the Modern Era, the Niflheim Empire was trying to recreate Solheim's technology for hundreds of years before Ardyn showed up on their doorstep, and they seemingly had significant success without him. They had already conquered Tenebrae and Accordo, and backed Lucis into a last resort of putting up a magical barrier, the latter having given up trying to win and instead begun focusing on trying not to lose.

Again, this was all before Ardyn came before the Emperor of Niflheim with whatever knowledge he had to share.

While on that topic, though he gained his place there at least in part with his knowledge, all we know with certainty is that he proposed creating the Magitek Troopers. Seeing as Verstael is credited as the mad scientist who was the actual architect behind their development, whatever knowledge was key to Ardyn acquiring his position as chancellor may not have even been of the technological variety.

If my meaning is unclear, what I'm getting at is that he may not have acquired his position in Niflheim by delivering technology from Solheim so much as by revealing that it was possible to harness the daemons as a power source they could weaponize into the Magitek Troopers. His perceived usefulness to the Empire may have simply been related to his familiarity with the scourge, which itself may have had nothing to do with Solheim's technology.

It's certainly very tempting to imagine Solheim as having used the same technology, seeing as the very name for Magitek, either in English or Japanese, implies magic/sorcery, and because we know FFVI's Magitek Armor was also powered by the essence of magical beings. The allure of this take on things is bolstered all the more by the fact that, other than through utilizing the scourge, we don't have any reason to believe magic was ever made available to humans unless given to them by the gods (e.g. as with the King and Oracle).

So, yeah, it is tempting to conclude Solheim must have been harnessing daemons or even the scourge outright for its Magitek Armor the same as Niflheim one day would with its Magitek Troopers and Magitek Armor. Is that the only possibility, though?

Of course not. As you have reasonably pointed out, it seems the role of King and Oracle existed even then -- and the King is capable of sharing their power with others, as mentioned in the game's Tutorial under the "Magic of the Lucii" painting: "Monarchs in the line of Lucis have the innate ability to conjure magical weapons. A handful of close attendants are also afforded access to the selfsame power." We see this in the form of Regis sharing his power with the Kingsglaive, or Noctis sharing his power with his Brotherhood (I conclude that this is why they are able to summon their own weapons). We know so little about the lost ancient civilization that, for all we're aware, the ancient Magitek Armor may have simply been powered by the magic of the King.

I realize it's twice as tempting to imagine that Solheim had utilized the scourge when we imagine the irony of Niflheim -- which had sought to replicate Solheim's technology and essentially become Solheim -- being destroyed by the same mistake as its predecessor. However, we're led to believe that Ardyn was responsible for the timing of when Niflheim lost control of the daemons, in which case he was probably the only reason the Empire had control over them in the first place.

If that is, indeed, the case, then it becomes less likely that Solheim owed its prosperity to making use of the daemons. How would they have ever controlled them to begin with? Not through Ardyn. His notable place in history was being a savior -- and later a pariah -- in a time of crisis, not in lifting a civilization to its golden age. By the time he could have controlled the daemons, his goal was to lay ruin to a new kingdom and its royal bloodline.

For that matter, even if Solheim was also destroyed by the scourge, would it necessarily have had to be because they were utilizing it. Could it not be because they just got overtaken by pestilence?

Again, whatever conclusions we may draw about Solheim, Niflheim didn't owe to Ardyn its ascension to military dominance. He may not have provided ancient technology from Solheim at all, but rather a notion for a new technology and a means to control the daemons to develop that technology. He could have even pretended that using the daemons was what Solheim had done in the past. Aldercapt wouldn't have known any better.

At any rate, I feel I've adequately demonstrated why Ardyn's entry into Niflheim's inner circle doesn't require that he be from Solheim, nor even that he know anything about Solheim's technology.

It's still possible that he is from Solheim, of course, and -- as you've pointed out -- he at the very least had the role of King since he can access the Armiger. But having the role of King isn't the same as being a king of anything or anywhere, though (more on that momentarily). It's even entirely possible that Ardyn could be from Solheim yet still not have delivered any of its ancient technology to Niflheim since it's not a necessity that Niflheim's Magitek is the same as Solheim's Magitek.

There's just too much we don't know.

And I include in this "too much we don't know" the idea that the Armiger is necessarily connected to Solheim in any way -- at least as we get to know it. Yes, there was apparently the role of King back then, but that doesn't require any of the spirits who contribute to the Royal Arms that Noctis can access to be connected with Solheim. The role of King merely grants the power to summon weapons. Yes, the weapons of ancestors can be included in this, but it also includes ... just weapons. Personal weapons.

Whose weapons would the first person to have the role of King have been summoning but his own? Along similar lines, Regis summons his own glaive. It is his personal weapon, not that of an ancestor. Likewise, Noctis with the Engine Blade.

Since Ardyn has this power, all this tells us is that he has had the role of King. But as I said above, having the role of King is not the same as being a king.

There are three different meanings for the term "King" that come up throughout the lore:

—The god-given role of King with Armiger powers
—Kings who actually occupy a throne
—The King chosen by the Crystal (a.k.a. "the Chosen King" and "True King" in the English localization)

Let's look at these in more detail.

First, there's the role of King, akin to the role of Oracle. At the fundamental level, this just entails being blessed by the gods with the power to summon weapons -- but it doesn't necessarily entail that you will end up being the second kind of king and ruling anything. No more so than being Oracle guarantees you will govern Tenebrae (Luna certainly didn't).

Why is this relevant? Because Ardyn was never a king of anything. He had the god-given role of King -- but he never became king. Bahamut says as much: その汚れた身体を聖石に拒まれ王位に就くことなく葬られた愚かな男 ("A foolish man who was rejected by the Holy Stone for that unclean body and was buried without ascending to the throne").

So, at most we can say that there may have been men in Solheim with the role of King, and that these men may have been kings. Ardyn, meanwhile, we can say may have come from Solheim, but most certainly never became a king even while having the role of King.

This, by the way, is part of why I believe Solheim had fallen before Ardyn was born. Though the role of King and being a king are two different things, they almost always go hand in hand as far as we ever see. They didn't with Ardyn, though. Why?

Either he became tainted with the scourge while only a prince or he held the role of King at some point between the fall of Solheim and the founding of Lucis. He served as king of neither, though.

As you said:

We don't exactly know how long the age of myth lasted, but with how broken up it is-- they're only going to tell us the important parts. It could have been days, months, years, who knows?

Ardyn was either a prince of Solheim when it fell or a prince of nothing who never became a king of anything. He very well could have been born in whatever dark time lay between Solheim's fall and Lucis's founding. It could have been only a few days, sure, or a few weeks, a few months, or a few years -- but I think the most likely answer is that it was a few decades.

Being that a new kingdom (i.e. Lucis) was founded rather than the older nation simply being reestablished, repopulated and revitalized, it strikes me as generations having passed.

Lastly, we have the "King Chosen by the Crystal"/"Chosen King"/"True King" -- the person who the Crystal intends will end the scourge. Noctis's ancestors had the role of King and were kings of Lucis -- but none of them were the Chosen King. How much sense would it make, after all, that "the successive generations of kings continued awaiting the emergence of the 'King chosen by the Crystal'" if all of them were the Chosen King?

As you can see, it's really quite easy to end up being one kind of king in FFXV's mythos without being every kind of king that comes up in the lore. We know Ardyn was the kind who can command an Armiger, and he may have even been intended to be the Chosen King sort at one time, but he was not ever the kind who actually sat on a throne. This, I think, is reflected in his animosity toward Noctis's bloodline. It is the station of the royal statesman sort of king that Ardyn disrespects (e.g. putting his foot on the steps to the throne in "Kingsglaive"; putting his foot on the throne itself before the final battle in the game; desecrating the throne room while leaving the rest of the Citadel intact), and it is that station which he seeks to defile (e.g. putting up those macabre decorations in the throne room) and destroy.

I will say that Ardyn certainly was descended from Kings living in Solheim -- but I think everyone else was descended from people there too, weren't they?



I forgot to reply to this bit from your previous post, by the way:

The Old Wall:

• Seemed to be right after or right around the founding of Lucis
• Heavily implied the wall is the kings of SOLHEIM, not Lucis
• Would have to have been kings of 'old' preceeding Ardyn, as there was no crystal power during their time.

I found the description to be clear in saying that it was to be the spirits of the kings of Lucis -- starting with the nation's founder, and onward -- who would inhabit the statues:

----
12体の像は、死せる王の魂が収まる棺として作られたもの。歴代の王は、この棺のなかで、解「クリスタルに選ばれし王」の出現を待ちつづけた。

The 12 statues were made as caskets into which the souls of the dead kings come to reside. Within these caskets, the successive generations of kings continued awaiting the emergence of the "King chosen by the Crystal."
----

Just as Ardyn's Armiger need not have drawn upon prior Kings, these statues need not have. They were occupied by the souls of the kings of Lucis who came and went through the centuries to follow.

At any rate, that "Power of Kings" entry didn't mention Solheim, so there's no reason to suspect a connection between it and the Royal Tombs.

 

[cold_spirit]

Hello all. I want to make sure my understanding of the ancient history of Eos is as accurate and objective as possible. Please look over the following section. Is anything I'm presenting contradict another source?

2000 Years Ago
The spreading of a disease called the Starscourge causes the death of millions. This mysterious parasite has the ability to turn mankind and beasts into daemons.

To combat the Starscourge, the Astrals forge the Crystal and the Ring of the Lucii. The Crystal’s light holds the power to repel the darkness.

Ardyn Lucis Caelum, a savior who lives in Lucis, cures those afflicted with the Starscourge by absorbing the disease into himself. The darkness in his body causes him to become immortal.

The reigning King at the time demonizes Ardyn to the eyes of the world. This King is chosen by the Crystal and establishes the Kingdom of Lucis.

The Astrals give the King of Lucis the Ring of the Lucii along with the Crystal. The royal family is tasked with protecting the Crystal. The Ring of the Lucii serves as the King’s connection to the Crystal and can be used to conjure forbidden magic.

The plague is suppressed through the efforts of the King of Lucis.

One thing I definitely want input on: Is it safe to say that the King who demonized Ardyn is the same that established the Kingdom of Lucis? Let's take a look at some sources:

"In Lucis lived a savior who could cure the afflicted... But a jealous king, one not yet chosen by the Crystal, ostracized and demonized this healer of the people." -Ardyn, Chapter 13, Final Fantasy XV

"The Crystal and the Ring of the Lucii are brought from the gods, who went to sleep; the King at that time founds the Kingdom of Lucis" -History of Eos, Final Fantasy XV Scenario Ultimania, Translation by The Twilight Mexican

"The gods forge the Ring of the Lucii, give it to the King of Lucis along with the Crystal produced by the planet, and command the royal family to protect the Crystal." -History of Eos, Final Fantasy XV Scenario Ultimania, Translation by The Twilight Mexican

What we can say, for sure, is that the first King of Lucis was the first to receive the Crystal. That much is clear. Since the king who demonized Ardyn is to be chosen by the Crystal, and since you can not already be a King of Lucis unless the Crystal approves it, then the King "yet to be chosen by the Crystal" has to be the original King. Therefore, the King who demonized Ardyn is the one who established the Kingdom of Lucis.

Does that logic make sense? I can conceptualize it, but it's difficult to put into words. Let me break it down again:

1. The person who demonized Ardyn is a king.
2. Since he is eventually chosen by the Crystal, he must be a Lucis Caelum.
3. Therefore, he is a "King" of the Lucis Caelum bloodline.
4. You can not be the reigning King of Lucis unless the Crystal approves it.
5. However, this man is already referred to as a king before he is approved by the Crystal.
6. Therefore, he must be the original King of Lucis before he was given the Crystal and Ring of the Lucii.

Everything is solid, right? RIGHT?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Hello all. I want to make sure my understanding of the ancient history of Eos is as accurate and objective as possible. Please look over the following section. Is anything I'm presenting contradict another source?

These parts:

To combat the Starscourge, the Astrals forge the Crystal and the Ring of the Lucii. The Crystal’s light holds the power to repel the darkness.

...

The reigning King at the time demonizes Ardyn to the eyes of the world. This King is chosen by the Crystal and establishes the Kingdom of Lucis.

The gods didn't create the Crystal. It came from the planet, and is the heart of the planet. Its power is greater than them.

Also, none of the Kings of Lucis -- from the one who demonized Ardyn on down to Regis himself -- were chosen by the Crystal until the last one. Only Noctis was Chosen by the Crystal, and is the Chosen King/the True King.

It's possible that Ardyn had been as well, but it's not clear enough yet that I'm comfortable saying with certainty one way or the other.

One thing I definitely want input on: Is it safe to say that the King who demonized Ardyn is the same that established the Kingdom of Lucis?

It's safe enough to mention, but I'd still put "presumably" in front of it.

What we can say, for sure, is that the first King of Lucis was the first to receive the Crystal. That much is clear. Since the king who demonized Ardyn is to be chosen by the Crystal, and since you can not already be a King of Lucis unless the Crystal approves it, then the King "yet to be chosen by the Crystal" has to be the original King. Therefore, the King who demonized Ardyn is the one who established the Kingdom of Lucis.

Does that logic make sense?

Like I mentioned in my previous post, you can be the king of Lucis without being chosen by the Crystal. There are three meanings to the word "King" used in the lore.

Ardyn had the role of King (i.e. could use the Armiger), but was never the king of any kingdoms, and may or may not have been the Chosen King.

Regis had both the role of King (i.e. could use the Armiger) and was the king of a kingdom, but was not the Chosen King.

Noctis was all three.




By the way, thank you so much for putting that "History of Eos" document together. It got me started in a big way on piecing the lore together, and motivated me to find as much as possible (e.g. making sure I had all the Cosmogony entries). =)

 

[cold_spirit]

Also, none of the Kings of Lucis -- from the one who demonized Ardyn on down to Regis himself -- were chosen by the Crystal until the last one. Only Noctis was Chosen by the Crystal, and is the Chosen King/the True King.

I understand that Noctis is the Chosen King, I'm simply referring to the King in ancient times that Ardyn refers to as being chosen by the Crystal. Taking Ardyn's words at face value, my interpretation is that the Crystal did some type of "choosing" after Ardyn was demonized, hence Ardyn's words "one not yet chosen by the Crystal". This obviously can not be Noctis.

In your interpretation, what is Ardyn's meaning of "But a jealous king, one not yet chosen by the Crystal, ..."?

It's possible that Ardyn had been as well, but it's not clear enough yet that I'm comfortable saying with certainty one way or the other.

I agree. It's difficult to say his relationship with the Crystal/the rest of the royal family.

Like I mentioned in my previous post, you can be the king of Lucis without being chosen by the Crystal. There are three meanings to the word "King" used in the lore.

Ardyn had the role of King (i.e. could use the Armiger), but was never the king of any kingdoms, and may or may not have been the Chosen King.

Regis had both the role of King (i.e. could use the Armiger) and was the king of a kingdom, but was not the Chosen King.

Noctis was all three.

Right, I was very careful with my usage of "king" in my post (though I love the sound of it as much as the words "bomb" and "mako"). Sooo, you're basically saying it's too ambiguous to tell which one Ardyn is referring to? Great!

 

[Ryuman]

One thing I definitely want input on: Is it safe to say that the King who demonized Ardyn is the same that established the Kingdom of Lucis?

To start with, I'll say that this is how I interpreted it in my playthrough, and this has not changed since. Thankfully this is one of the more straight-forward details of Ardyn's backstory.

With that said; I simply do not understand why this element of the story is so confusing. Who was Ardyn really? What was Izunia a King of? Were they related? In terms of that last question, many assume yes. While there are certainly some clear reasons as to why one would think that, it doesn't really seem satisfactory to me. I think it would be much more explicit if there was a real relation between the two. Perhaps I'm giving the team too much credit here.

I've posted about it before and I still don't have a good answer.

Ardyn had the role of King (i.e. could use the Armiger), but was never the king of any kingdoms, and may or may not have been the Chosen King.

I think this is the best way of looking at it. My current headcanon is that Ardyn was chosen to suit a similar role by the Astrals (Despite this idea never being stated) but Izunia does some smooth talking and points out the flaws in Ardyn's method- ruining his reputation and garnering the King some Godly favour. The Astrals then forsake Ardyn and apoint Izunia of a postion not unlike his predecessor, albeit improved via the Ring and Crystal. As for Ardyn- Not only does he obtain Daemon power, but the Astrals... forget to flip the off switch on the power bestowed upon him? (This is only because I try to come up with an explanation that does not make the two men related.)

The only problem with this is my concern with whether or not Ardyn was ever divinely chosen to do anything. Just something I'm not 100% on.

The reigning King at the time demonizes Ardyn to the eyes of the world. This King is chosen by the Crystal and establishes the Kingdom of Lucis.

The gods didn't create the Crystal. It came from the planet, and is the heart of the planet. Its power is greater than them.

I would suggest that maybe

'The King is chosen to bear the Crystal and Ring, establishing the Kingdom of Lucis'

would be more appropriate phrasing?
Also, not to be a pain, but the Crystal is what now? Am I forgetting something, or was there info I missed? I feel like I've been slow on the uptake in the last page or so.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Also, none of the Kings of Lucis -- from the one who demonized Ardyn on down to Regis himself -- were chosen by the Crystal until the last one. Only Noctis was Chosen by the Crystal, and is the Chosen King/the True King.

I understand that Noctis is the Chosen King, I'm simply referring to the King in ancient times that Ardyn refers to as being chosen by the Crystal. Taking Ardyn's words at face value, my interpretation is that the Crystal did some type of "choosing" after Ardyn was demonized, hence Ardyn's words "one not yet chosen by the Crystal". This obviously can not be Noctis.

In your interpretation, what is Ardyn's meaning of "But a jealous king, one not yet chosen by the Crystal, ..."?

Based on the other material we have that speaks of the Lucian kings' spirits awaiting the day that the Crystal will choose a King, I think the line was written that way (with the "yet") simply to emphasize that, at last, the proper Chosen One (Noctis) has arrived.

Sooo, you're basically saying it's too ambiguous to tell which one Ardyn is referring to? Great!

I don't believe this original bearer of the Izunia name was already a king in the royal sense simply because they applied the Lucis Caelum name to the kingdom. Were they already royalty, you'd expect the kingdom to have been Izunialand or something.

I can, therefore, only conclude they became a royal king (i.e. founded the Kingdom of Lucis) after taking the name from Ardyn.

I am assuming, though, that they were related to Ardyn by blood and were already a King in the sense that they had the Armiger like him. We know both the King and Oracle roles, with their associated powers, are hereditary. Of course, it's possible that the gods could have gifted this Izunia person with those powers the same way they gifted them to Ardyn's ancestor, but one wonders if they would have chosen to give this obvious douchebag the powers of the man he killed.

Then again, Bahamut shows no sympathy for Ardyn, so who knows. Maybe the Crystal rejecting him was enough for the gods to justify to themselves empowering his slanderer/killer even though he had been saving people.

Also, not to be a pain, but the Crystal is what now? Am I forgetting something, or was there info I missed? I feel like I've been slow on the uptake in the last page or so.

Bahamut says the Crystal is the heart of the planet (whenever you see the English localization say "star," it means "planet"; the Japanese version explicitly explains this, but the localization team, for whatever reason known only to themselves, ignored it), and the Ultimania says the Crystal was produced by the planet.

 

[Ryuman]

For some reason I keep forgetting that massive lore dump Bahamut gives you. Thanks though. That does make sense in terms of Crystals, I suppose.

Bahamut, like Leviathan and Ifrit, gave me the impression of being a typical merciless deity with little concern for the existence of mortals. I can definitely see them acting in strange and cruel ways. That's basically shown in the events that must take place for the Lucis line must do to end the Scourge.

 

[Superespresso]

A lot of words.

Just sayin'

I was going to sit here and come up with a long, well-thought-out response to this but every time I grab my keyboard and go to do it I come back to the same thing. There's just too much we don't know to make even assumption on the era the characters are from, the state of power they were in at the time, or even what their priorities were in relation to the timeline. Doesn't mean it's any less fun to read it and theorize, but there's no fact besides putting down what we do know and trying to properly place it.

There is one thing I do want to bring up though. When it comes to Solheim (because I'm absolutely stuck on it since it's apparently important enough to have an Ultimania page, but not important enough to flesh out completely) wouldn't it be possible for it to be what we know as Modern-Day Lucis?

I found the description to be clear in saying that it was to be the spirits of the kings of Lucis -- starting with the nation's founder, and onward -- who would inhabit the statues:

So we have this statement here from the Ultimania. What if (and again, it's all what-if since Square can't answer my questions or get something solid down) Lucian kings are Solheim kings? I can see where you're coming from about the Armiger not drawing from the prior kings but it just doesn't make sense to me. When Noctis takes a weapon for his arsenal it disappears. By that thought, since Ardyn has the same ability, those weapons would not be able to be used.

Perhaps a previous iteration of the same power? A different line but same weapons? Who knows. I do believe that there is a connection between Solheim and the Royal Tombs, but I need more information to draw more than speculation about it.

As you can see, it's really quite easy to end up being one kind of king in FFXV's mythos without being every kind of king that comes up in the lore. We know Ardyn was the kind who can command an Armiger, and he may have even been intended to be the Chosen King sort at one time, but he was not ever the kind who actually sat on a throne. This, I think, is reflected in his animosity toward Noctis's bloodline. It is the station of the royal statesman sort of king that Ardyn disrespects (e.g. putting his foot on the steps to the throne in "Kingsglaive"; putting his foot on the throne itself before the final battle in the game; desecrating the throne room while leaving the rest of the Citadel intact), and it is that station which he seeks to defile (e.g. putting up those macabre decorations in the throne room) and destroy.

I will say that Ardyn certainly was descended from Kings living in Solheim -- but I think everyone else was descended from people there too, weren't they?

I can't see any kind of timeline where Ardyn would be the kind of king to sit on a throne. He seems more of a traveler type, which makes more sense considering what his purpose was in regards to cleaning up the 'terrastigma'. Maybe a king in name only. There is also the fact that his goals allign with wiping out the line of Lucis, which includes himself, so that does point to him being a prior king. Again, need more information. The game points to the name "Izunia" belonging to someone who ascended and shunned him, but it's too ambiguous to play with.

One thing I definitely want input on: Is it safe to say that the King who demonized Ardyn is the same that established the Kingdom of Lucis? Let's take a look at some sources:

"In Lucis lived a savior who could cure the afflicted... But a jealous king, one not yet chosen by the Crystal, ostracized and demonized this healer of the people." -Ardyn, Chapter 13, Final Fantasy XV

"The Crystal and the Ring of the Lucii are brought from the gods, who went to sleep; the King at that time founds the Kingdom of Lucis" -History of Eos, Final Fantasy XV Scenario Ultimania, Translation by The Twilight Mexican

"The gods forge the Ring of the Lucii, give it to the King of Lucis along with the Crystal produced by the planet, and command the royal family to protect the Crystal." -History of Eos, Final Fantasy XV Scenario Ultimania, Translation by The Twilight Mexican

This is actually what we're talking about and trying to figure out. We don't know if the King who demonized Ardyn is the first king of Lucis or not. I like to believe that it was Ardyn himself that created Lucis in the image of Solheim and served as the first ruler (for whatever brief time) but there's nothing information-wise that leasds to a steady explanation.

What we can say, for sure, is that the first King of Lucis was the first to receive the Crystal. That much is clear. Since the king who demonized Ardyn is to be chosen by the Crystal, and since you can not already be a King of Lucis unless the Crystal approves it, then the King "yet to be chosen by the Crystal" has to be the original King. Therefore, the King who demonized Ardyn is the one who established the Kingdom of Lucis.

Yes and no, as TM brought up in his previous post:

There are three different meanings for the term "King" that come up throughout the lore:

—The god-given role of King with Armiger powers
—Kings who actually occupy a throne
—The King chosen by the Crystal (a.k.a. "the Chosen King" and "True King" in the English localization)

So going on that, we have a few options for how everything can work. It all goes back to what happened with Solheim and how the kingdom of Lucis was founded.

 

[cold_spirit]

Based on the other material we have that speaks of the Lucian kings' spirits awaiting the day that the Crystal will choose a King, I think the line was written that way (with the "yet") simply to emphasize that, at last, the proper Chosen One (Noctis) has arrived.

I think I understand how we interpret Ardyn's line differently. I interpret "yet" as "this jealous king is not chosen by the Crystal at the time, but he will be." (I don't mean "chosen" as in "Chosen King", I mean "chosen" as in the Crystal chooses him in some other matter.) You are interpreting "yet" as "this jealous king wants to be the Chosen King, but the Crystal will never choose him." Is this correct?

Can we replace the word "chosen" with "approved"? When I say "the Crystal chose the king who demonized Arydn, but he is not the Chosen King," it gets a little confusing. However, "the Crystal approves of the king who demonized Ardyn, but he is not the Chosen King" is a little more clear to what I mean.

I would suggest that maybe

'The King is chosen to bear the Crystal and Ring, establishing the Kingdom of Lucis'

would be more appropriate phrasing?

I agree. That is what I mean.

 

[Ryuman]

I can't see any kind of timeline where Ardyn would be the kind of king to sit on a throne. He seems more of a traveler type, which makes more sense considering what his purpose was in regards to cleaning up the 'terrastigma'. Maybe a king in name only.

Well, we do have

Spoiler: these illustrated insights into Ardyn's past

This is actually what we're talking about and trying to figure out. We don't know if the King who demonized Ardyn is the first king of Lucis or not. I like to believe that it was Ardyn himself that created Lucis in the image of Solheim and served as the first ruler (for whatever brief time) but there's nothing information-wise that leasds to a steady explanation.

If I may point out this passage from the guide.

This information might be echoed somewhere else, but I can't keep up anymore.
I feel like, and feel free to say otherwise, that this means that "Izunia" would have been the founder of Lucis. I see the Oracle and King as a set. An Oracle and King for each generation. And despite Ardyn's clear efforts, I don't think it was him that quelled the Scourge for that era. It just seems like he came before to me.

Of course, you're right. There is no clear answer. Maybe we are doomed to run in circles here

 

[Superespresso]

I can't see any kind of timeline where Ardyn would be the kind of king to sit on a throne. He seems more of a traveler type, which makes more sense considering what his purpose was in regards to cleaning up the 'terrastigma'. Maybe a king in name only.

Well, we do have

Spoiler: these illustrated insights into Ardyn's past

This is actually what we're talking about and trying to figure out. We don't know if the King who demonized Ardyn is the first king of Lucis or not. I like to believe that it was Ardyn himself that created Lucis in the image of Solheim and served as the first ruler (for whatever brief time) but there's nothing information-wise that leasds to a steady explanation.

If I may point out this passage from the guide.

This information might be echoed somewhere else, but I can't keep up anymore.
I feel like, and feel free to say otherwise, that this means that "Izunia" would have been the founder of Lucis. I see the Oracle and King as a set. An Oracle and King for each generation. And despite Ardyn's clear efforts, I don't think it was him that quelled the Scourge for that era. It just seems like he came before to me.

Of course, you're right. There is no clear answer. Maybe we are doomed to run in circles here

I have the book that second picture is in, and I swear I've never seen that passage before. ..Maybe I have and I've just been so deep in the Ultimania lately I've completely forgotten about it. EITHER WAY.

It could go either way, with the implication that it was Ardyn first chosen, or not. Who knows at this point. There's just way too much vague information with no clear point. The more I read and try to make sense of it all, the less sense it all makes. Aaaaah so frustrating.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I was going to sit here and come up with a long, well-thought-out response to this but every time I grab my keyboard and go to do it I come back to the same thing. There's just too much we don't know to make even assumption on the era the characters are from, the state of power they were in at the time, or even what their priorities were in relation to the timeline. Doesn't mean it's any less fun to read it and theorize, but there's no fact besides putting down what we do know and trying to properly place it.

There is one thing I do want to bring up though. When it comes to Solheim (because I'm absolutely stuck on it since it's apparently important enough to have an Ultimania page, but not important enough to flesh out completely) wouldn't it be possible for it to be what we know as Modern-Day Lucis?

Sure, it's possible. As we've gone over, there's so little about that era that's concretely detailed, you could think of it as an Atlantis-like lost continent and not be wrong without more info coming along. There's just currently nothing to indicate it any more than there is any other idea. One could as easily conclude modern-day Tenebrae is where Solheim was becuase that's where the Oracles settled.

By the way, I don't think I have seen the Ultimania page for Solheim. Is it in that Imgur album you sent me? I'm double checking now and still not seeing it.

I can see where you're coming from about the Armiger not drawing from the prior kings but it just doesn't make sense to me. When Noctis takes a weapon for his arsenal it disappears. By that thought, since Ardyn has the same ability, those weapons would not be able to be used.

Presumably the weapons return to the tombs when not summoned. If they were gone forever once picked up, they wouldn't have been there for Noctis to acquire after his father collected them.

This is actually what we're talking about and trying to figure out. We don't know if the King who demonized Ardyn is the first king of Lucis or not. I like to believe that it was Ardyn himself that created Lucis in the image of Solheim and served as the first ruler (for whatever brief time) but there's nothing information-wise that leasds to a steady explanation.

If he did found the kingdom in some way, he never actively served as ruler. Remember he died "without ascending to the throne"?

You can certainly still imagine that he founded it, though. Perhaps he began things, then left on a journey to wipe out the scourge while leaving a trusted adviser (chancellor?), friend, or family member as regent in his stead while he was gone, only to be vilified by them shortly after his return.

Based on the other material we have that speaks of the Lucian kings' spirits awaiting the day that the Crystal will choose a King, I think the line was written that way (with the "yet") simply to emphasize that, at last, the proper Chosen One (Noctis) has arrived.

I think I understand how we interpret Ardyn's line differently. I interpret "yet" as "this jealous king is not chosen by the Crystal at the time, but he will be." (I don't mean "chosen" as in "Chosen King", I mean "chosen" as in the Crystal chooses him in some other matter.) You are interpreting "yet" as "this jealous king wants to be the Chosen King, but the Crystal will never choose him." Is this correct?

Can we replace the word "chosen" with "approved"? When I say "the Crystal chose the king who demonized Arydn, but he is not the Chosen King," it gets a little confusing. However, "the Crystal approves of the king who demonized Ardyn, but he is not the Chosen King" is a little more clear to what I mean.

In part, I suppose I don't see the need to bring the Crystal into the matter at all except where choosing the True King is concerned. The gods rather than the Crystal chose the original Armiger King (I think I'll begin using this term for clarity), so if there was another to be selected, I don't see why they wouldn't do it the second time.

Also, we can't just swap out the word "chosen" for "approved" in this instance, by the way, because precisely the same word (&#36984 is used in that line as is used in the term 「選ばれし王」, "Chosen King."

I understand why you would take "not yet chosen" as meaning "wasn't chosen at the time, but would be later" (quite simply, it sounds like what "yet" should mean), but I'm interpreting it differently because the other material says to me that we have to. There's no Lucian King chosen by the Crystal until Noctis, so that would have to include the first one; and that first Lucian King getting to be either an Armiger King or a Lucian King would have been decided by the gods.

When you break it all down into these explicit separate terms (the Chosen King, the Lucian Kings, and what I'm calling "the Armiger King"), it begins to get a lot more cut and dry.

If I may point out this passage from the guide.

This information might be echoed somewhere else, but I can't keep up anymore.
I feel like, and feel free to say otherwise, that this means that "Izunia" would have been the founder of Lucis. I see the Oracle and King as a set. An Oracle and King for each generation. And despite Ardyn's clear efforts, I don't think it was him that quelled the Scourge for that era. It just seems like he came before to me.

Of course, you're right. There is no clear answer. Maybe we are doomed to run in circles here

This bit, on the other hand, sadly gets no more cut and dry -- only more confusing.

The Ultimania timeline implies to me that the Armiger King-Oracle "sets" existed before the scourge hit. The Piggyback guide's summary, however, says they were selected and armed as a response to the threat.

Also, if we take the Piggyback guide's summary at face value, Ardyn not only did stop the plague the first go round, but he also was definitely the Chosen King (at least until he wasn't).

 

[Superespresso]

By the way, I don't think I have seen the Ultimania page for Solheim. Is it in that Imgur album you sent me? I'm double checking now and still not seeing it.

Haha.. no. It's just scattered information at this point I'm trying to put together.

Came back to do some editing because I'm in too deep now.

Presumably the weapons return to the tombs when not summoned. If they were gone forever once picked up, they wouldn't have been there for Noctis to acquire after his father collected them.

I like the thought of this. I also like the thought that maybe after the King who has the control over them dies, they go back to the tombs. Either way that's way too much thought for such a little thing.

If he did found the kingdom in some way, he never actively served as ruler. Remember he died "without ascending to the throne"?

You can certainly still imagine that he founded it, though. Perhaps he began things, then left on a journey to wipe out the scourge while leaving a trusted adviser (chancellor?), friend, or family member as regent in his stead while he was gone, only to be vilified by them shortly after his return.

Mmm, this is true. I like the idea that Izunia was his regent actually. That feels right in the scope of context. Considering how many Lucian kings have to go on a journey (Regis had to as well..) It would actually make sense for some sort of regent system in place for that kind of thing. I can't see Lucis as the kind of place to just up and let their king go do something without having someone else there to take care of stuff-- especially with how aggressive Nifelheim is towards them.

I understand why you would take "not yet chosen" as meaning "wasn't chosen at the time, but would be later" (quite simply, it sounds like what "yet" should mean), but I'm interpreting it differently because the other material says to me that we have to. There's no Lucian King chosen by the Crystal until Noctis, so that would have to include the first one; and that first Lucian King getting to be either an Armiger King or a Lucian King would have been decided by the gods.

This is so very, very important within the lore. The crystal can choose a king but it's not a king to rule. It seems more about the crystal choosing a representative to fulfill alternative tasks that it puts forward. I don't even think that it would have to be a king of Lucis, but they do have the power that has been passed through the line in order to do everything necessary. It's probably more of a fulfilling of the prophecy thing.

O'er rotted Soil, under blighted Sky,
A dread Plague the Wicked has wrought

In the Light of the Gods, Sword-Sword at his Side,
‘Gainst the Dark the King’s battle is fought

From the Heavens high, to the Blessed below,
Shines the Beam of a Peace long besought

Long live thy Line and these Stones divine,
For the Night when All comes to Naught

This was in Episode Duscae if I remember right. According to this prophecy (which might have been scrapped at this point, hell if I know) it's only one of the line that could fulfill it.

I'm thinking though that the gods and the crystals motives need to really be separated as far as everything goes. On that train of thought though, why would the Starscourge have been a product of Ifrit's betrayal, as it's been alluded to in a few pieces of text? That information would greatly be beneficial to figuring all of this out IMO.

Also; sidenote. Even if it didn't make perfect sense I really wish that supposed Ardyn leak from 4chan was real. That would have been the bees knees if they actually had something to go off of. There's so many plot holes that even adding more would be better than nothing.

 

[Blade]

Have to point out to you, Tres. Armiger can be stolen. If they really did return to the tombs, they could just as easily return to the current or previous major King.

Cor wrote a note about Sword of the Tall being taken to Costlemark by Daemons. And of course Regis' sword was taken too.

 

[Superespresso]

Have to point out to you, Tres. Armiger can be stolen. If they really did return to the tombs, they could just as easily return to the current or previous major King.

Cor wrote a note about Sword of the Tall being taken to Costlemark by Daemons. And of course Regis' sword was taken too.

I really want to know if that was Regis's sword or if that was a holdover name or something.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Have to point out to you, Tres. Armiger can be stolen. If they really did return to the tombs, they could just as easily return to the current or previous major King.

Cor wrote a note about Sword of the Tall being taken to Costlemark by Daemons. And of course Regis' sword was taken too.

It probably wouldn't be possible to summon one out of Costlemark or away from Ravus if no one who had bonded to the weapons was alive, though. Noctis hadn't done that yet.

By the way, that note you're thinking of was left by Hunters.

I really want to know if that was Regis's sword or if that was a holdover name or something.

The Sword of the Father? That was absolutely Regis's sword. You can see him with it in "Kingsglaive," the weapon's description in the equipment screen says it was his, and it's referenced once or twice that Ravus has it.

 

[Superespresso]

Have to point out to you, Tres. Armiger can be stolen. If they really did return to the tombs, they could just as easily return to the current or previous major King.

Cor wrote a note about Sword of the Tall being taken to Costlemark by Daemons. And of course Regis' sword was taken too.

It probably wouldn't be possible to summon one out of Costlemark or away from Ravus if no one who had bonded to the weapons was alive, though. Noctis hadn't done that yet.

By the way, that note you're thinking of was left by Hunters.

I really want to know if that was Regis's sword or if that was a holdover name or something.

The Sword of the Father? That was absolutely Regis's sword. You can see him with it in "Kingsglaive," the weapon's description in the equipment screen says it was his, and it's referenced once or twice that Ravus has it.

Yeah I know that but I mean, designed, crafted, created for Regis. I know that is his sword but I'm wondering if it's actually his-his or a weapon from his line that he took as his own.

 

[Blade]

That's just IT. We don't really know how Armiger works other than Lucis Royalty can use them.

Lunafreya was an exception to the rule as she was using the Trident in her role as Oracle for the gods.

Assuming the gods forged the Armiger, that would make sense, though Sword of the Tall sticks out like a sore thumb compared to the others.

Not that I have complaints over a Magic giant Chainsaw sword or anything.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah I know that but I mean, designed, crafted, created for Regis. I know that is his sword but I'm wondering if it's actually his-his or a weapon from his line that he took as his own.

That's my understanding. Too much significance is introduced over it being Regis's weapon. Since the Engine Blade was given to Noctis when he was 16 as his personal sword, I concluded that Regis's glaive was his signature weapon.




So, I've translated a few pieces out of the interview with Tabata. They're somewhat interesting (the last response is thoroughly disappointing). There's also a portion where it looks like they ask him a question contrasting Luna with Aerith, but it looks like he compares her more to Yuna. Not sure what he has to say there yet, but I'll try getting to that bit tomorrow.

Here's this for now:

----
――ゲーム中のイベントシーンで、田畑さんが深く関わった部分はありますか？

田畑　エンディングだけは、こまかいところにまで指示を出して、自分の意見を反映させてもらっています。

――Is there an event scene during the game that you were deeply involved with?

Tabata: For at least the ending I gave instructions down to a fine detail, and my intentions are reflected.


——エンディングでノクトとルナフレーナが映るシーンには、どんな意味が込められているのでしょうか？

田畑　そこはプレイヤーのご想像におまかせします。エンディングでどうしてもやりたかったのが、最後のカットをタイトルロゴと重ねる演出でした。そもそも、タイトルロゴのイラストをふたりに増やすアイデアは、ノクティス役の鈴木達央さんから「ノクティスもロゴに入れてほしい」と頼まれたのがきっかけだったんです。「エンディング後にのみ表示されるようによすなら、ノクティスを加えてもいいかな」と思い、天野（天野喜孝氏）に描き下ろしてもらったところ、見事にエンディングの内容にハマって、あの演出が生まれました。

——What is the meaning behind the scene in the ending where Noctis and Lunafreya are shown?

Tabata: That's up to the player's imagination. What I really wanted to do with the ending was set up the last cut superimposed with the title logo. Noctis's voice actor, Tatsuhisa Suzuki, saying "I want Noctis to be included in the logo" was the catalyst for the idea of adding both of them to the title logo's illustration. I thought "If it's only shown after the ending, it will be okay to add Noctis," and when I had Amano (Yoshitaka Amano) draw it, I was amazed at the content of the ending, and that direction came to life.


——少し話はそれますが、エンディング直前の玉座のシーンで、天井から何体も吊り下がっている人形は何だったのでしょう？

田畑　あれは、アーデンが玉座の間でノクティスたちを長いあいだ待っていた、という描写です。アーデンは、一般の感覚とかけ離れた趣向を持つ猟奇的な性格なので、ノクティスを待つ10年間にあんな風景を作り、王の空間を汚して遊んでいた、というニュアンスですね。

——It may be a bit of a story, but what was with the dead bodies hanging like puppets from the ceiling in the throne room scene just before the ending?

Tabata: You could say that's an expression of Ardyn waiting a long time for Noctis and co. in the throne room. Fashioning scenery like that and playfully desecrating the king's space in the ten years he waited for Noctis are nuances of Ardyn's twisted personality with its notions detached from normal sensibilities.


——アーデンは、王になったノクティスを倒して復讐を果たそうとしましたが、純粋に復讐だけが目的だったのでしょうか？

田畑　そうです。裏に深遠な理由があるのではなく、強くなったノクティスに復讐を遂げるという、自分にとって最高に気持ちのいい状態を味わうために動いていました。ノクティスの不幸が自分の幸せだったわけですね。帝国がルシス王国との停戦協定を結ぶ条としてノクティスとルナフレーナの結婚を提示したもの、ノクティスに王の力を継承させるべく仕組んだものだったんです。

——Ardyn tries to complete his revenge by defeating Noctis, who had become king, but was his motivation entirely revenge?

Tabata: That's right. There's no profound reason behind it, as his actions were for the sake of reveling in the greatest possible pleasure for himself, to achieve revenge on Noctis at his strongest. Noctis's misery is his own happiness. When the Empire presented a marriage between Noctis and Lunafreya as part of a treaty agreement with the Kingdom of Lucis, it was arranged to make Noctis inherit the power of the king.
----

 

[Tennyo]

So I beat this game last night but I just have so many questions.

I'm trying to read through the thread but it's not helping. :/

I can't seem to reconcile these feelings...

 

[Ryuman]

——アーデンは、王になったノクティスを倒して復讐を果たそうとしましたが、純粋に復讐だけが目的だったのでしょうか？

田畑　そうです。裏に深遠な理由があるのではなく、強くなったノクティスに復讐を遂げるという、自分にとって最高に気持ちのいい状態を味わうために動いていました。ノクティスの不幸が自分の幸せだったわけですね。帝国がルシス王国との停戦協定を結ぶ条としてノクティスとルナフレーナの結婚を提示したもの、ノクティスに王の力を継承させるべく仕組んだものだったんです。

——Ardyn tries to complete his revenge by defeating Noctis, who had become king, but was his motivation entirely revenge?

Tabata: That's right. There's no profound reason behind it, as his actions were for the sake of reveling in the greatest possible pleasure for himself, to achieve revenge on Noctis at his strongest. Noctis's misery is his own happiness. When the Empire presented a marriage between Noctis and Lunafreya as part of a treaty agreement with the Kingdom of Lucis, it was arranged to make Noctis inherit the power of the king.
----

Thank you, Tabata. *Saves quote for future use.*

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

A tad disappointing, though. The on-screen depiction of the character implies more going on with him at times (i.e. more than hate every second; more than full control of himself even), so either Tabata let others insert differing subtext into those scenes without him realizing it, or he's speaking in terms of the broad strokes here.

 

[Unit-01]

So I beat this game last night but I just have so many questions.

I'm trying to read through the thread but it's not helping. :/

I can't seem to reconcile these feelings...