Final Fantasy XIII-2 (Spoiler Thread)

Alex Strife

Ex-SOLDIER
Interesting, and makes sense, I'd say.

I always kind of took it like that. Time is a VERY subjective term, I believe. I always thought, for example, that Valhalla was more like some kind of "unchanging world" rather than a "stopped world".

Probably because it's very easy to think that if time stops, then you simply can't move. But it's not so easy, and we're talking of concepts that simply stretch beyond human understanding. We have never experienced a "no time" environment, and therefore we can't really portray it properly.

It's as if you assumed the Universe has a limit, and tried to portray what's beyond that limit. And before anyone says "nothing", try to think about it. If there's truly nothing, where is the Universe located? It can't be located in "nothing", because if there was "nothing", then the Universe could not exist!

... ramblings.
 

Fangu

Great Old One
Noel got so bored of my playing he decided to take a break.

noelsits.jpg
 

Arianna

Holy, Personified
AKA
Katie; Seta.
As daft as I feel for it being so, I can't say I understand everything said about time and what Caius was actually speaking about when he mentioned 'time.'

But, my thought is that with the destruction of the heart of Etro, which allowed Caius to control the chaos and probably was a portion of the power he holds, the goddess became that much closer to fully disappearing from the seen part of the cosmos all together.

I do not believe she's totally gone, because of Lightning. Perhaps that is why Lightning was chosen as her champion?

In all, that which Etro bestowed, and that which she caused, but not all, disappeared. That which held Chaos in check, or at least certain traits of it, is (possibly?) no more.
 

Arianna

Holy, Personified
AKA
Katie; Seta.
Double post for my pictures:

LindzeiSymbolPossibly2.png


LindzeiSymbolPossibly1.png


SerendipityCocoonImage2.png


SerendipityCocoonImage1.png


And here are pictures of the cards I was speaking about, Pulse, Etro and Lindzei. I am sure I mentioned it here...

JackLindzeiCard.png


KingPulseCard.png


QueenEtroCard.png


... The best quality I could get, sadly.
 

Fangu

Great Old One
I am now 25 hours and 9 minutes into my ongoing playthrough. I've got 138 of 160 fragments, completed all quizzes and Serendipity fragments - the main fragments missing are the Paradox endings, plus a few of the harder monster (200 AF Odin for instance), plus the occasional small stuff you can't do until you've finishing the game.

I have this hope of finishing it before 30 hours have passed... but I doubt I will as I've still fot the biggest obstacle left - the Bestiary fragment. Hopefully I'll be power leveled enough to be able to take down the rare enemies fast enough.

One needs challenges in ones life.
 

Leaferian

Sunflower Knight
AKA
Leafé
Oh wow, it looks like my posts found their way here before I ever did! :D I'm Leaferian (Leafé for short), and my friend (whose username is Mwynn on here apparently) told me that I should come by here and get involved in the discussion! :D

That being said, I see I have some stuff to mention.

@Arianna: Actually, according to the Brand fragments in XIII-2 the Heart of Chaos doesn't give its controller any power. All it does is make them immortal. In Caius' case specifically, it DOES afford him the ability to Incarnate Summon his Eidolon, Bahamut, as much as he wants. (Since ordinarily, an Incarnate Summon kills the summoner)

Noel mentions that he wants the power of Chaos that all Guardians are granted- All Guardians are deeply connected to Chaos, but only Caius has the Heart of Chaos. The ability to control the Chaos and command it appears to be a gift of the l'Cie Focus that the original Guardians bore, before Etro granted him the Heart.

***SPOILER***
This is why, during 'The Goddess is Dead', Caius is seen able to control Chaos despite no longer possessing the Heart. He speaks directly to Yeul, or so we're lead to believe, and he talks as if he'd just left the ending scenes of the game. Notice also, that he tells Yeul that with the Goddess dead, they are free to "make a new world". He stabs the ground, causing Chaos to flood out and fill up the screen.

***SPOILERIFIC THEORY***
It is my belief that Caius did not die during the end of XIII-2. In the opening of the game, Caius has whole buildings dropped on him, and within minutes the Heart of Chaos has repaired his body from what would have been a gooey mass of gore. He takes massive amounts of punishment and shrugs it off quickly. Noel's sword stabbing through the Heart of Chaos does relatively little damage to Caius' body, and it couldn't have taken more than a few seconds for it to heal him. The Heart took longer to fade away than it would have to repair the damage, I'm pretty sure.

Also it is Etro's style, through and through. She knew she was dying, she knew it was the end. But all of her actions have been rash attempts to save people's lives. If it were her very last breath, her very last action, I think Etro would use it to save someone.

As for Serah's death and the flood of Chaos on Gran Pulse, most of the players I've talked with (myself included) assumed that the delay was because of the ripple effect of the timeline. What if that's not how it is, though? If Caius survived and merely pretended to fade away, it might be that he actually had to command the Chaos to rise up and smash Etro's Gate. This gap would account for the time between when Noel and Serah arrive in 500AF again and when the Chaos is unleashed.
 

Fangu

Great Old One
Yay moar world of XIII-people coming in, welcome! :D

I have a PS3 question guys... I started collecting trophies on a save file. Then I decided to start over and started a new game (created a second save file) and when I reached a part of the story when I should have gotten a trophy, I didn't get it. Does anyone know if there's a way to force the PS3/PSN to look for trophies in a specific playthrough? And can you sort of look through a save game for trophies you didn't get yet? Edit: Wait, my bad. I just received the trophy I was talking about, I'd just messed up when you actually get it :P
 
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Lex

Administrator
Fangu, trophies aren't linked to save files. If you're on the latest update, they're located in Playstation Network - Trophy Collection - and then the game you're getting them for. If you've got a trophy, there's no way to "un-get" it unless you create a new user account. You can get each trophy on a seperate save file, pretty much ^_^.

Also, welcome Leafé!
 

Fangu

Great Old One
Fangu, trophies aren't linked to save files.
That was my working theory until I seemingly didn't receive trophies I should have gotten.

Edit: 28 hrs 22 minutes, 149 fragments

aaaaa

I need to plan out the rest carefully if I'm to make this in 1 hour and 38 minutes... hmm. I don't think I'll be able to do this, but, challenge accepted :desu: Gilfinder II, Rolling in CP, Item Collector II, hello. I'm gonna do the Archylte Steppe monsters now for a lovely 120,000 CP and some cash, and then see how strong I can make my monsters for the final Paradox Ending battles...
 
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Splintered

unsavory tart
Noel mentions that he wants the power of Chaos that all Guardians are granted- All Guardians are deeply connected to Chaos, but only Caius has the Heart of Chaos. The ability to control the Chaos and command it appears to be a gift of the l'Cie Focus that the original Guardians bore, before Etro granted him the Heart.
I always thought that the l'cie of the guardians are kind of weird in the l'cie mythology because they break tradition- no real time limit and apparently getting in touch with Chaos (I didn't hear that before). It could be an Etros intervention, I guess.

It makes more sense with the "only a guardian can kill Caius" thing, for the longest time I just figured that Etros for some reason tied the Heart of the Chaos to the old Guardian rules (one Guardian at a time, and the title only succeeds with one guardian killing the other), but if being a Guardian is linked to chaos then it makes sense that only they have the ability to kill Caius.

Although doesn't mythology state that people naturally have chaos and that's why they are fundamentally different from fal'cie? The Fabula Novas mythology paints chaos as something fundamentally more benevolent than XIII-2 does.

It is my belief that Caius did not die during the end of XIII-2. In the opening of the game, Caius has whole buildings dropped on him, and within minutes the Heart of Chaos has repaired his body from what would have been a gooey mass of gore. He takes massive amounts of punishment and shrugs it off quickly. Noel's sword stabbing through the Heart of Chaos does relatively little damage to Caius' body, and it couldn't have taken more than a few seconds for it to heal him. The Heart took longer to fade away than it would have to repair the damage, I'm pretty sure.
I thought it was stated that he died but lives on through chaos? I mean, Caius pulled that sword right through him, you saw it pop out of his back, and his heart is the only thing that needs to be destroyed.

Honestly my running theory was that dying in Valhalla means just as much as time, which is little at all. Since he died in a place where life had little meaning, he didn't quiet stop existing. But now I just assume that the Ultimania is just going to go the Sephiroth AC route, he's such a strong presence he just doesn't dissipate in the chaos.

Cauis is one of my favorite villains but I'm not sure how much I want him "redeemed." I kind of like his last moments of victory in death. There's a part of me that really likes that he won.
 

Leaferian

Sunflower Knight
AKA
Leafé
I always thought that the l'cie of the guardians are kind of weird in the l'cie mythology because they break tradition- no real time limit and apparently getting in touch with Chaos (I didn't hear that before). It could be an Etros intervention, I guess.

It makes more sense with the "only a guardian can kill Caius" thing, for the longest time I just figured that Etros for some reason tied the Heart of the Chaos to the old Guardian rules (one Guardian at a time, and the title only succeeds with one guardian killing the other), but if being a Guardian is linked to chaos then it makes sense that only they have the ability to kill Caius.
Yes, it's implied that the Guardians are l'Cie of Etro somehow. The reason their Focus has no time limit is that they are tasked with protecting the Seeress; The only way for them to turn Cie'th is for her to die some way other than by her visions. It also implies that the Focus of a l'Cie can be inherited or passed on to someone. As for the Guardian thing, it also seems that anyone who is in touch with Chaos has the potential to become a Guardian.

One of the Paradox Endings transcripts, Heir to Chaos, gives us a glimpse of one of Caius' memories. 300 years before the events of XIII (and a full thousand before Noel's fight with Caius and Yeul's death), Caius fought a warrior that very nearly killed him. This warrior was apparently pulled into Valhalla before they could land the killing blow, forcing Caius to wait for Noel's birth.

Although doesn't mythology state that people naturally have chaos and that's why they are fundamentally different from fal'cie? The Fabula Novas mythology paints chaos as something fundamentally more benevolent than XIII-2 does.
Etro put a shard of Chaos inside every human being. This is what humans call the soul, and it is what allows them free will while at the same time opening them up to various pains. Some people are in tune with Chaos, which allows them to summon monsters or travel the time lines as Noel and Serah do. Furthermore, people that are especially in touch with Chaos may become Guardians, or receive the Eyes of Etro from the Goddess which allows them to witness all of time.

I thought it was stated that he died but lives on through chaos? I mean, Caius pulled that sword right through him, you saw it pop out of his back, and his heart is the only thing that needs to be destroyed.
Caius is stated as being a 'paradoxical existence', and the game developers refused to comment on whether or not he actually died. They were very evasive on the subject. At the same time, though, we also know that supposedly there is no such thing as death in Valhalla. Lightning and Caius fought each other in a massive timeloop for a really long time, each defeating the other only for the fallen warrior to rise back up. It's possible he did die for real and simply reappeared elsewhere in Valhalla, but that still puts him as waking up moments later to direct the Chaos out onto Gran Pulse.
 
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The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I still find the Guardian thing endlessly and unnecessarily overcomplicated. All the explanations for everything in XIII-2 seem to be "just 'cause." There's not really an internal, consistent logic to it that would let the player figure things out without a Datalog or a developer interview saying, "Here's why that happened the way it did."

For instance, if both the current Guardian and Guardian potentials were l'Cie that had been empowered by Etro herself, then we could probably just accept that only one of these potentials can kill the current Guardian by doing any of the same things that wouldn't work if performed by a normal person.

Unfortunately, the potentials aren't l'Cie, and even someone like Lightning unleashing all manner of hell on Caius won't kill him.

It's just a stupid, poorly constructed plot element.

Though I have enjoyed reading all you've had to say, Leaferian.
 

Fangu

Great Old One
I thought this 'killing the excisting Guardian' was just something Caius made up to make Noel kill him? Because if Caius was already immortal, he wouldn't need a successor.

This story is complicated. X)
 

Leaferian

Sunflower Knight
AKA
Leafé
I still find the Guardian thing endlessly and unnecessarily overcomplicated. All the explanations for everything in XIII-2 seem to be "just 'cause." There's not really an internal, consistent logic to it that would let the player figure things out without a Datalog or a developer interview saying, "Here's why that happened the way it did."

For instance, if both the current Guardian and Guardian potentials were l'Cie that had been empowered by Etro herself, then we could probably just accept that only one of these potentials can kill the current Guardian by doing any of the same things that wouldn't work if performed by a normal person.

Unfortunately, the potentials aren't l'Cie, and even someone like Lightning unleashing all manner of hell on Caius won't kill him.

It's just a stupid, poorly constructed plot element.

Though I have enjoyed reading all you've had to say, Leaferian.
Well actually, Fangu is right. Caius claims to have killed the Guardian before him, but that was only because he was trying to get Noel to be willing to kill him. Only a potential Guardian can destroy the Heart of Chaos, and it's implied that this is because Etro gave Caius the Heart so he could better protect Yeul. It's like an extension of inheriting the Focus of the Guardian.

Also, supposedly this phenomenon took place in XIII. When Serah wept crystal tears and turned to crystal of her own free will, she passed her Focus on to Lightning and the others. Since they were human at the time it shouldn't have mattered, but on becoming l'Cie they gained her Focus. Since Etro has no fal'Cie and has never been shown to be able to brand people, it's more likely that the previous Guardian turns to crystal or becomes a Cie'th, and the potential Guardian seeks out a Pulse fal'Cie to brand them and therefore activate Etro's Focus.

Lightning couldn't kill Caius permanently without destroying the Heart of Chaos, which would have killed the Goddess. It's not that she was incapable of doing the deed, it's that doing so would have killed the very being she was trying to protect.


And personally, I like that they're relying on the datalog. One of the most contrived elements of any RPG is that the characters of the game learn everything the players do. If Noel and Serah found out everything that was in the Fragments, they would never have continued their journey and the game wouldn't have gone down the way it did. They want you, the player, to realize what's happening and just how badly Noel and Serah have been duped by the end of the story. They want you to have that slasher-film style feeling of despair. I wouldn't want this to become the standard for story telling, but it's definitely an interesting, darker perspective.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
According to the Datalog, the bit about potentials killing the current Guardian is altogether true:

"Guardians
The warriors who accompany and protect the seeress Yeul are chosen from among the most capable of the Farseer people.

A Guardian is the strongest of these, a defender that wields the power of chaos. This power is said to surpass even the godlike might of the fal'Cie.

Only one true Guardian is permitted to exist at any one time. Another protector of the Farseer tribe who challenges and defeats the champion becomes the new Guardian and wielder of chaotic energy."

"Heart of Chaos
The Heart of Chaos is the goddess Etro's own heart, given to Caius. It is the font of the immortal Guardian's power. Only if another potential Guardian defeats him and takes this power can Caius truly be killed. And the only person remaining in this world with that potential is Noel.

If the new Guardian has enough strength of will, he can release the Heart's power and put an end to immortal destiny. If he wavers, however, he will be enslaved in chains of chaos, and become the latest in a line of eternal servants."

Leaferian said:
Lightning couldn't kill Caius permanently without destroying the Heart of Chaos, which would have killed the Goddess. It's not that she was incapable of doing the deed, it's that doing so would have killed the very being she was trying to protect.

The above Datalog entry certainly indicates that only a potential Guardian could destroy the Heart of Chaos or kill Caius.

For that matter, Lightning seemed pretty intent on killing him in the game's opening battle:

Lightning: "We're done here. Say good-bye."
Caius: "I long since ceased to feel pain!"
Lightning: "You're finished, Caius!"

There's also this Datalog entry:

"An Immortal Wish
To destroy the divine heart within his breast, and unleash the maelstrom of chaos—this was Caius's only wish. And so he waited.

He needed one who could surpass him in battle and had the potential to still the Heart of Chaos. When Noel was born, the Guardian's prayers were answered. If Caius failed to open Etro's Gate, he would force Noel to slay the goddess. With the timeline still bent and distorted, the chaotic energy freed by that act would rise of its own accord and shatter the gate. It was his only hope."

There's also this bit:

Serah: Do you hear that? Music? No...it's someone talking.
Noel: Wait. That sounds kind of familiar... It's the people from my
village!
Voices: Noel, do you intend on fighting Caius? He possesses the Heart of
Etro. If you kill him, you betray the goddess. You have the power to
stop the beating of his immortal heart. You can free him from his cursed
fate. However, if you lack conviction and strength, the Heart of Chaos
will consume you. Noel, are you prepared to destroy Caius and carry the
burden of your sin?

Live Trigger
Caius is a warrior infused with the power of the goddess. Do you have
the courage to turn your back on the goddess and destroy him?

Triangle - I can do this.
Circle - I don't know.
X - I can't.
Square - I don't want to kill anyone.

Triangle - I can do this.

Serah: It must be difficult to hear them.
Noel: They're testing me. I can't have any doubts if I'm going to kill
Caius.
Serah: Is it something that you have to do?
Noel: Caius...he's protected by the power of chaos. To overcome that
power, he must be defeated by another Guardian like me. So yeah...
Serah: The only person left who can stop him...is you.
Noel: Pretty much. I'm afraid there's no other way around it.

And this:

Caius: Face your worst fear.

(Upon defeating him...)

Caius: There must be some temporal distortion.

(The party is returned to the Historia Crux.)

New Location Unlocked! A Dying World -??? AF-

A Dying World -??? AF-

The goddess bestowed on Caius Ballad the Heart of Chaos. Only a Guardian
of the same tribe may ever hope to wrest that power from him. And so
Caius waited. He waited for one who possessed the strength to defeat
him. After many centuries, his patience was rewarded with the arrival of
Noel, the last Guardian to be born. Caius pinned all his hopes on this
child. The immortal did not want Noel to simply succeed him--he wanted
Noel to surpass him.

(The party visits A Dying World ??? AF.)

Noel: (narrating) The moment I defeated Caius... ...the power of chaos
coursed through my body, and transformed me into a Guardian.

Paradox Ending: Heir to Chaos

Noel: (narrating) That's when I saw memories of his past, his life.
I saw the day he slayed his predecessor, and became a l'Cie to protect
the seeress.

Sources:
-FFWiki
-ProfessorTofty's English game script

Leaferia said:
And personally, I like that they're relying on the datalog. One of the most contrived elements of any RPG is that the characters of the game learn everything the players do.

VIII and XII did an amazing job of providing the player with extra details that enhanced their understanding of the world, characters and story without any of those things actually requiring them in order to make sense.

And when it comes to metaphysics, VII and X/X-2 managed to do all manner of wacky things while remaining consistent and keeping to an internal logic that the player could draw conclusions from without needing to be spoonfed.

So, yeah, I think XIII-2's story is a disaster on almost every level.
 

Leaferian

Sunflower Knight
AKA
Leafé
The game directly contradicts that information.

[Ultima Brand Fragment:
Words of Protectors Past

The Heart of Chaos does not grant the Guardian power-it eats away at their physical self. Caius did not gain an immortal body, but was cursed with eternal life.

Heed my words, Noel. You are the last protector, and the only one who can wrest the Heart's strength from Caius. In the instant you strike the life from his body you shall either inherit the curse, or beak its eternal grip. Only your will can sway fate one way or the other.]

-----

[Chaos Brand Fragment:
Words of Protectors Past

A massive battle once raged on Gran Pulse. Paddra was besieged by a great army that sought the life of the seeress. In the face of this assault, Caius chose to perform an 'incarnate summoning.' This ritual merged his essence with that of the Eidolon Bahamut, and drew forth all of their latent power.

An incarnate summoning expends the life force of the summoner, and thus did Caius perish. But he returned from death's domain, an immortal heart beating in his breast. That dark summons is now his to wield at will-as long as the Heart of Chaos pumps eternity through his veins.]

------

[Gorgyra Fragment:
Best of the Beastiary

There was once a female warrior of Paddra, bound to serve the goddess, who was tricked by an enemy and almost caused the seeress to be killed. Now, the seeress loved the warrior like a sister, and she forgave the mistake. But the warrior did not, and as penance she asked the fal'Cie to turn her into a Cie'th.

When the warrior finished her prayer to the fal'Cie, an ominous voice rang through her head. 'I have heard your plea. You shall lose your five sense, and be plunged into black flames, and wander the eternal darkness. Your words shall be a song of agony; your screams a curse of death. And thus shall you remain, until a merciful one destroys your soul and frees you from your torment.']

-----

The Datalog entries for myth and history record the information that Noel and Serah find out through the story; Everything in them is supposed to be something one of the characters heard from another character. They're meant as a guideline to Noel and Serah's understanding, and the Fragments go above and beyond that. There were Guardians before Caius, such as Gorgyra, and they were l'Cie with the power to wield some form of Chaos. Caius alone has had the Heart of Chaos, so there actually is NOT a 'long line of eternal servants'.

What Serah and Noel think isn't necessarily right. For example, at the ending when Caius is dying Serah says that he must have always wanted to come to Valhalla, to die for real so he and Yeul could be together, and rest for eternity. So that when Yeul died, she wouldn't have to come back to him. This is absolutely not the case, as Caius' goal was to merge the two worlds so there would be no future and no visions to kill Yeul anymore. 'In The Goddess is Dead', Caius mocks them and how they followed his plan without ever knowing the truth. The point of the story's perspective is, again, to give the player more information than the characters have. The characters are tricked, and rather than the game simply following their knowledge and leaving players in the lurch you're afforded the opportunity to find the truth out for yourself.

It's a design choice. As I said, it's not how I would prefer games to be made. But I understand the direction they're coming from, and what they were trying to accomplish.


As an aside, I recall Toriyama stating in an interview that Lightning 'did not fight with full force' once she realized Caius had Etro's heart inside of him. The only thing we know to be true is that Caius killed his own predecessor, and we don't know that he HAD to. Since the developers went out of their way to mention Serah passing on her Focus and claiming it to be similar to how Guardians all have the Focus to protect the Seer, I'm willing to put stock that they don't have to be killed. Caius being the exception, because the Heart has to be stilled.



EDIT: Oh, and here's a Fragment regarding the fal'Cie relation to people who can travel the timelines. Or, more accurately, are blessed by Chaos like the Guardians are.

[Book of Avalon Fragment:
Words of the Seeress

Hark, and hear the secret words of the Farseers.

Only those blessed with chaos by the goddess may travel the portals of time. Even the fal'Cie, with all their great power, could not enchant the blessed and make them turn against the goddess. The goddess;s protection is nearly absolute.]

-----

If this is true, then any Guardian would be immune to the natural course of the Focus given them by the fal'Cie and be free to perform the duties tasked them by the Farseers and their goddess. This is why I believe Gorgyra had to pray to the fal'Cie; It appears she had to give up Guardianship to become a Cie'th, unless Etro's protection doesn't extend to volunteering.



As for the story being a mess, that's your opinion and you are of course welcome to it. However, I understand most of the story and what I don't understand rings of questions left unanswered for Lightning Returns. I found the plot enjoyable despite it being a little on the nose.



At any rate, I think I'm gonna take a break from this particular discussion. (The Guardian stuff) I've been having it over and over again across different sites the last few weeks, and I am just burned out on rehashing all the same points and counter points with people. xD Thanks for the debate, though.
 
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The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
The game directly contradicts that information.

...


The Datalog entries for myth and history record the information that Noel and Serah find out through the story; Everything in them is supposed to be something one of the characters heard from another character. They're meant as a guideline to Noel and Serah's understanding, and the Fragments go above and beyond that. There were Guardians before Caius, such as Gorgyra, and they were l'Cie with the power to wield some form of Chaos. Caius alone has had the Heart of Chaos, so there actually is NOT a 'long line of eternal servants'.

There's no contradiction. I can't say whether the translator intended that line to be understood as speaking of a long line of servants, each of whom is eternal (that would kind of sound like a contradiction itself), or whether they meant to imply an eternal line of servants (more likely), but given that the translation flubbed things like Noel referring to himself as the last child of the human race to be born rather than saying "we were the last children" (the last Yuel was younger than him), when you do run into something like this, it's time to consult the original Japanese text.

In this case, the original line does not say anything to the effect of "a long line of eternal servants." It simply says, "However, if their will is insufficient, they will be cursed with receiving the Heart of Chaos and become the newest servant":

だが器が不足であれば、彼はのろわれた「混沌の心臓」にとりつかれ、新たなしもべとなるであろう。

Leaferian said:
What Serah and Noel think isn't necessarily right. For example, at the ending when Caius is dying Serah says that he must have always wanted to come to Valhalla, to die for real so he and Yeul could be together, and rest for eternity. So that when Yeul died, she wouldn't have to come back to him. This is absolutely not the case, as Caius' goal was to merge the two worlds so there would be no future and no visions to kill Yeul anymore. 'In The Goddess is Dead', Caius mocks them and how they followed his plan without ever knowing the truth. The point of the story's perspective is, again, to give the player more information than the characters have. The characters are tricked, and rather than the game simply following their knowledge and leaving players in the lurch you're afforded the opportunity to find the truth out for yourself.

To be fair, Serah was written as a moron throughout most of the game. At times, she didn't even seem to understand things that had just been explained. Serah and Noel had been outright told Caius's plan prior to that moment of "insight." They knew he wanted to put an end to time, and Caius had already told Noel before all this about the Heart of Chaos in his chest; he should have known that killing him (what Caius had been wanting from him all along) would kill Etro.

The characters may have tricked themselves with some kind of selective oversight here, but they had the same information we did about Caius's intentions.

As an aside, I recall Toriyama stating in an interview that Lightning 'did not fight with full force' once she realized Caius had Etro's heart inside of him.

I'm not sure if I've read this. There have been so many interviews.
 

Kuja9001

Ooooh Salty!
AKA
roxas9001, Krat0s9001, DarkSlayerZero
Caius had already told Noel before all this about the Heart of Chaos in his chest; he should have known that killing him (what Caius had been wanting from him all along) would kill Etro.

Noel still was suffering from amnesia, notice how that final piece of info(heart of chaos knowledge) finally springs back after everything was said & done.

VIII and XII did an amazing job of providing the player with extra details that enhanced their understanding of the world, characters and story without any of those things actually requiring them in order to make sense.

And when it comes to metaphysics, VII and X/X-2 managed to do all manner of wacky things while remaining consistent and keeping to an internal logic that the player could draw conclusions from without needing to be spoonfed.

1. VIII pretty much had the same thing as the datalog except it wasn't as informative.

2. VII is far from consistent(when it comes to The Crapilation).
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Noel still was suffering from amnesia, notice how that final piece of info(heart of chaos knowledge) finally springs back after everything was said & done.

Given that this was after the Dying World segment, one gets the impression that he already had that memory back, though. At any rate, Serah had witnessed the memory.

They should have known. They must have -- or that segment is pointless.

Kuja9001 said:
1. VIII pretty much had the same thing as the datalog ...

How do you figure? VIII's plot was easy to follow.

Kuja9001 said:
2. VII is far from consistent(when it comes to The Crapilation).

I'm not talking about the details of things like the Nibelheim reactor scenario. That's a clusterfuck of nonsense. I'm talking about the metaphysics.
 

Alex Strife

Ex-SOLDIER
In my opinion, VIII's datalog provided mostly tidbits of information. Small snacks that make the world feel alive. While XIII was heavy with information on the datalog.

The thing is XIII's story was more rushed than VIII's. I'm not talking about the development, but the story itself. In FFXIII, the team is always charging forward, never stopping to rest, which gives a feeling of urgency that lasts for the whole game. In the end, this means you never get to explore cities, to learn about the world, etc. And it leaves an empty space of information about the world that can only be filled by the datalog.

In FFVIII's case, you had your moments of charging forward with urgency and rush, but you also had moments of calm where you could freely explore the place, talk to the people, and get to learn stuff. So even without visiting its own datalog, you pretty much know all you need about the world.

It's the general ambience of the game, that's different. If XIII is like a sturdy door you have to kick repeatedly to go past it, VIII is like an old door that you need to use a key on. You will have to find the right way to fit it, but you may still have to give it a kick or two. I hope my odd analogy is understood!

I know I chose a strange thing to focus on, but... *crawls back under a rock*.
 

Lex

Administrator
Actually, I agree with that. But I think the lack of exploration in XIII was a developer choice and not exactly something that was necessitated by the story. They must have known fans would complain about things like the lack of towns etc. They kind of almost rectified that with XIII-2, but none of the places really felt like a "hub" to return to, aside from maybe the Steppe.
 

Leaferian

Sunflower Knight
AKA
Leafé
The characters may have tricked themselves with some kind of selective oversight here, but they had the same information we did about Caius's intentions.

The last thing I feel like pointing out in this discussion is that Noel responded to Caius' remarks about destroying time with what was essentially "What are you on, wtf are you talking about?" The ending actually covers this. Noel remembers that stabbing the Heart leads to the death of Etro and the destruction of time after Serah is already dead. (When Mog says that the Goddess is gone) Prior to that both Noel and Serah believed Caius' main objective was to smash Cocoon into Gran Pulse, causing countless deaths and flinging Etro's Gate wide enough for the Chaos to get through. You can chalk it up to them being stupid if you like, them not understanding, them not believing Caius, etc.

Personally, I think it's because Noel and Serah still thought the goal was to drop Cocoon, and the fact that the 'memory' of Noel fighting Caius was from before he got to Valhalla. I mean, Lightning told them in New Bodhum 700AF that Caius was going to smash Cocoon into Bhunivelze to achieve the same effect. Meanwhile from the memory, Caius appeared to abandon the Noel plan in favor of going to Valhalla and slaying the Goddess personally. It would've seemed like an abandoned plan to Noel and Serah, even though the Fragments made it sound like Noel was Caius' best shot.

Anyway, m'done now. Gonna hang out in the chatbox and shoot the breeze for a while.
 
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