Final Fantasy XV (was Versus XIII)

[Lulcielid]

The presence of "Diamond Weapon" in XV does not necesarily mean a connection between the two, unless you think that FF1 & FF7 are tied due to sharing similar looking creatures (i.e: chocobos & behemoths for intances)

Not that this is new. There where rumors about this since back when it was still Versus, because so many of the characters appearing in the early trailers looked a lot like FFVII characters - like how early King Regis model looked eerily similar to Reeves, and how you had to characters by his table looking similar to Tseng, Reno and Rude - albeit older - and how the facial outline of the guy smirking under the white hood with the gray hair looked a lot like Sephiroth. And now FFVII's Weapons popping up as well?

1. Where did you heard these rumors? Just curious, I never heard about them.
2. This can easily be explained by both FFVII & FFXV sharing the same character designer (Tetsuya Nomura).

I'm starting to wonder, even if the worlds are entirely unrelated, if not the development process of the two are actually closely linked.
Although they said that the decision to do the FFVII remake happened fairly recently, a lot of stuff they said earlier in interviews seem to line up (how it would take ages to make FFVII in modern graphics due to size, that they wanted to make one FF game to surpass VII before releasing a remake), added to the fact that based on the game-play trailer for the Remake a lot of the animations and game-play elements seem to remind heavily of, if not directly lifted from FFXIII-Versus/FFXV.

1. The development of both FFVIIR & FFXV are unlikely to be linked to each other since they are made by different dev teams within Square-Enix & outsourced to different developers (CyberConnect2 for VIIR & Hexadrive,XPEC Entertainment+7 other companies for XV)
2. The similarities in gameplay can easily be explained by both games having the influence of Tetsuya Nomura.

 

[lithiumkatana17]

I think Diamond Weapon's appearance is only a cameo--a throwback if you will.

Unless Square comes and out says that these two worlds are connected, which I doubt they are, I'm not going to read too much into it. Enemies get recycled all the time.

 

[Lulcielid]

FFXV is coming to GAMESCOM, with a new demo.

 

[Lulcielid]

For anyone interested in computer graphics, there will be several FFXV tech talks at SIGGRAPH throughout this week starting from today

Today
http://s2016.siggraph.org/talks/sessions/angry-effects-salad

Visual Effects of Final Fantasy XV: Concept, Environment, and Implementation
This talk presents the concept for the visual effects of Final Fantasy XV and the node-based approach used to improve the productivity and flexibility of the workflow. It also explains the technical problems and solutions developed for the environment.

Tuesday
http://s2016.siggraph.org/talks/sessions/building-character

Character Workflow of Final Fantasy XV
This talk presents how to create character assets with superior quality and performance for display on a game console. It also summarizes construction of a workflow to efficiently produce these sorts of character assets on a large scale.
​
Final Fantasy XV: Pulse and Traction of Characters
http://s2016.siggraph.org/talks/sessions/brain-brawn

This talk presents the architecture and animation used in Final Fantasy XV. The goal was for players to feel the pulse and traction of the characters in a world that mixes fantasy and reality.​
Rendering Techniques of Final Fantasy XV

This talk presents the core graphics technologies used to render and light the seamless and dynamic world of the upcoming title Final Fantasy XV.​

Wednsday
http://s2016.siggraph.org/talks/sessions/playing-god

Environment Workflow of Final Fantasy XV

This talk explains how the immense and unique world of Final Fantasy XV was created: the technologies and development environment that allow users to experience the world imagined by the artists as if it were real.

Unfortunately, only the second day presentation will be streamable

For the others we will have to wait until SE uploads the slides to their website.
Usually they put them up here:http://www.jp.square-enix.com/tech/publications.html

 

[Flare]

I dunno if the Diamond Weapon creature is just a cool cameo or what, but I can't deny that it looks pretty wicked. I'm curious what it is in XV; maybe those godlike figures you see on the XV box art are based off of VII Weapon designs
Seriously though, I'm interested in the in-game reasons for this thing. Also Ghost has a good point, will the Weapons in the Remake look like this? Ooooh

 

[hian]

The presence of "Diamond Weapon" in XV does not necesarily mean a connection between the two, unless you think that FF1 & FF7 are tied due to sharing similar looking creatures (i.e: chocobos & behemoths for intances)

I don't think that's a good comparison. Diamond weapon is not a normal FF enemy, it's a plot specific creature of VII.
Diamond Weapon does not appear in any other FF games as an enemy.

Ultima Weapon on the other hand appears in many FF games, yet is always redesigned to various degrees.

This does indeed make it odd and out of place that Diamond Weapon should appear in FFXV designed almost exactly as in FFVII.

1. Where did you heard these rumors? Just curious, I never heard about them.

There was a picture meme made from this trailer at this specific time :
https://youtu.be/g2en0gdL5T4?t=105

comparing the faces of various characters from that table, to "their FFVII counter-parts" cut from AC, CC, DoC.

There was also a couple of Youtube videos with people wondering about it.
Tried googling for some of it, but it's been years.

2. This can easily be explained by both FFVII & FFXV sharing the same character designer (Tetsuya Nomura).

It could, but why would Nomura recycle his designs almost down to the T for a new game?
(granted they don't look that much alike - I think it's more the composition of them together by the table, together with the shared features that create the connotation)
I mean, seriously, three guys in suits, one guy with black hair and asian features, next to a bald guy in suit with shades, next to guy brown/reddish hair, and seated at the top is this :
https://youtu.be/g2en0gdL5T4?t=207

Yes, it's perfectly possibly that Nomura is just recycling designs. It's also possible that he's recycling designs specifically (not necessarily to reuse them for the remake mind you - but for instance to invoke nostalgia etc.)

1. The development of both FFVIIR & FFXV are unlikely to be linked to each other since they are made by different dev teams within Square-Enix & outsourced to different developers (CyberConnect2 for VIIR & Hexadrive,XPEC Entertainment+7 other companies for XV)

This is actually completely and entirely irrelevant to the point I was making, since all sources that go into these games, everything from 3D models to animation, regardless of whether they are being worked on in-house or not, are subject to SE as primary developers for each game - meaning that they can freely move those intellectual properties about as they please.

It's also patently obvious by dev diaries and interviews, that the final product is still being assembled at SE, so they're still the ones cataloging all the files.

My point is not that the two games are being worked on together - my point, which I thought was pretty clear, is that it could be possible (although unlikely) that FFVIIR was being envisioned much earlier than what SE has let on, and that they already had plans to use resources developed for FFXIII-Versus/FFXV in the remake.

As it is though - based on the FFVIIR remake trailer, I think it's pretty much undeniably that they're using animations taken straight from FFXV.
So, it wouldn't be at all weird if they end up using the Diamond Weapon model from FFVX/Kingsglaive as a basis for the model for Diamond Weapon in the remake.

The only part I think is truly conspiracy about this is whether or not that was their plan all along. That they're actually using FFXV resources to speed up development on the remake - that I have no doubt of what so ever.

2. The similarities in gameplay can easily be explained by both games having the influence of Tetsuya Nomura.

Again, that's irrelevant to the point I was trying to make.
Of course Nomura has an impact on the game-play of both games being similar.
My question is simply if the similarity is a product of Nomura now going "I like this and it's to do when we have all the base technology down already" or if it was more like "Hey, we're going to remake VII some-day, and I'm working on this title (FFXIII-Versus) now, which in many ways is the spitting image of what I would want for the remake, so why don't I build the technology and resources so that I can reuse them for the remake once this product is finished?"

Now, I'll readily grant that it's complete conspiracy theory to think that the people at SE, and Nomura where actually thinking that far ahead, and it's much more likely that this is simply something that's happened organically.

What I think we can say pretty much for certain at this point though - is that a lot of the resources developed for FFXV/Kingsglaive will go into the FFVII remake to save time.

There literally is no reason to redo shit-tons of motion capture data for basic movement through environments (jumping, crouching, climbing, basic weapon animations) or creating simple clothing, building and terrain models and textures etc. from scratch when you have a huge library already at your disposal after the making of FFXV.
And based on Cloud's movements in the game-play trailer, that's exactly what they're doing.


My real theory behind these things is completely different though -
I simply think Nomura loves FFVII, and takes any chance he can to put a little of his FFVII love into anything he touches.
As for the Diamond Weapon, it might simply be a ploy to generate hype for the remake, because people are bound to recognize it and go "omg omg, this gonna be in the FFVII remake, SOOO HYPED".

 

[ForceStealer]

original King Regis still looks more like Ringo Starr than Reeve But either way he looks like neither any more.

 

[hian]

original King Regis still looks more like Ringo Starr than Reeve But either way he looks like neither any more.

That's very true. He's seen a complete redesign. And as I said, while I don't consider it likely, it could be that once upon a time Nomura was designing these characters thinking he could use their models as bases for characters in the remake.
It's unlikely at this point though, considering the style and the graphical fidelity they seem to be going for with the remake, and how he's said he's essentially redoing all the characters.

 

[lithiumkatana17]

It's funny that you guys mention Regis, because I just saw this on Jon Campling's Twitter:

He reposted it saying, 'LOL he finally achieved full #CAMPLING I am the ultimate REGIS evolutionary step. BOOM.'

I love it when actors are enthusiastic about their characters.

 

[Lulcielid]

I don't think that's a good comparison. Diamond weapon is not a normal FF enemy, it's a plot specific creature of VII.
Diamond Weapon does not appear in any other FF games as an enemy.

Ultima Weapon on the other hand appears in many FF games, yet is always redesigned to various degrees.

This does indeed make it odd and out of place that Diamond Weapon should appear in FFXV designed almost exactly as in FFVII.

Then "Diamond Weapon" could get the same threatment that Knights of the Round got, used to be an exclusive element from FFVII until other entries started using it (FFXIV) turning it from VII exclusive to recurring in the series.

It could, but why would Nomura recycle his designs almost down to the T for a new game?
(granted they don't look that much alike - I think it's more the composition of them together by the table, together with the shared features that create the connotation)
I mean, seriously, three guys in suits, one guy with black hair and asian features, next to a bald guy in suit with shades, next to guy brown/reddish hair, and seated at the top is this :
https://youtu.be/g2en0gdL5T4?t=207

Yes, it's perfectly possibly that Nomura is just recycling designs. It's also possible that he's recycling designs specifically (not necessarily to reuse them for the remake mind you - but for instance to invoke nostalgia etc.)

Maybe he just simply liked the designs and wanted to (re?)use them.

As it is though - based on the FFVIIR remake trailer, I think it's pretty much undeniably that they're using animations taken straight from FFXV.
So, it wouldn't be at all weird if they end up using the Diamond Weapon model from FFVX/Kingsglaive as a basis for the model for Diamond Weapon in the remake.

1. From what part of which trailer? I haven´t seen Noctis and Cloud having the same battle animations.
2. That´s only if the VIIRemake artists vision of how Diamond Weapon would look like is the same as how the artists of XV/Kingsglaive portrayed it.

My question is simply if the similarity is a product of Nomura now going "I like this and it's to do when we have all the base technology down already" or if it was more like "Hey, we're going to remake VII some-day, and I'm working on this title (FFXIII-Versus) now, which in many ways is the spitting image of what I would want for the remake, so why don't I build the technology and resources so that I can reuse them for the remake once this product is finished?"

Unlikely, Nomura didn´t know they would work on the VIIRemake until fall 2014, which was 1 year after he left his role of XV director. Therefore he couldn´t work on XV with the idea that he would reuse what was done with XV for the hypethetical (at that time) Remake.

What I think we can say pretty much for certain at this point though - is that a lot of the resources developed for FFXV/Kingsglaive will go into the FFVII remake to save time.

There literally is no reason to redo shit-tons of motion capture data for basic movement through environments (jumping, crouching, climbing, basic weapon animations) or creating simple clothing, building and terrain models and textures etc. from scratch when you have a huge library already at your disposal after the making of FFXV.
And based on Cloud's movements in the game-play trailer, that's exactly what they're doing.

XV & VII have different combat systems and outside of some recurring elements, they also have their own original creatures/monsters/enemies, therefore need diferent animations and assets (an so will future games if they have different gameplay, creatures, enviroments, etc than the previous two games I mentioned)
Up to this point Square has alway redone stuff from scratch in every new game (sequels being the exception, like X-2 & XIII-2), I don´t see them rehassing assets in their new games, their in-house engine being reused for future titles (VIIR part2, XVI and beyond) is the more likely outcome.

 

[Flare]

@Lith, Jon Campling totally looks like the final step, that's hilarious.

 

[hian]

Then "Diamond Weapon" could get the same threatment that Knights of the Round got, used to be an exclusive element from FFVII until other entries started using it (FFXIV) turning it from VII exclusive to recurring in the series.

This is true, but still doesn't account for the design being almost identical though.

Maybe he just simply liked the designs and wanted to (re?)use them.

Could be the case, but that "just because"/"I just felt like it" is very seldom an actual explanation for human behavior. After all, we behave according to reasons more sophisticated than that most of the time.

1. From what part of which trailer? I haven´t seen Noctis and Cloud having the same battle animations.

Specifically when Cloud is moving through debris in the reactor, comparatively to the way Noctis moves when he is moving through similar environmental set-ups such as in the Duscae demo when you move in on the Behemoth.
Or the way Cloud wields Buster sword comparatively to how the FFXV cast wields their large blades respectively.

2. That´s only if the VIIRemake artists vision of how Diamond Weapon would look like is the same as how the artists of XV/Kingsglaive portrayed it.

Of course, and for all we know they might be different, but this is speculation in either case.

Unlikely, Nomura didn´t know they would work on the VIIRemake until fall 2014, which was 1 year after he left his role of XV director. Therefore he couldn´t work on XV with the idea that he would reuse what was done with XV for the hypethetical (at that time) Remake.

Which was the entire point of the conspiracy theory though - namely that maybe he knew earlier, and it was all a ruse. That's why it's called a conspiracy...
This is the very point I was calling into question.

XV & VII have different combat systems and outside of some recurring elements,

Irrelevant, since elements such as animation, wire-frame models, textures etc. are not in any way inhibited by what battle system they choose to use them in.
Also, depending on what language they code in, it's quite possibly they could be porting the basics of one system from one engine to a new one, and build off of that to save time. That is not at all uncommon.

they also have their own original creatures/monsters/enemies, therefore need diferent animations and assets (an so will future games if they have different gameplay, creatures, enviroments, etc than the previous two games I mentioned)

No. If you're using models with the same amount of parts, that are very anatomically similar, there is absolutely no point in creating new animations and assets for them just because the textures, and certain details on the models are different.

Sure, there might be enemy models that will be have to made from scratch, but there is absolutely no point in, for instance, creating an entirely new set of animations for a Malboro doing essentially the exact same things, if you already have one from FFXV.

Up to this point Square has alway redone stuff from scratch in every new game (sequels being the exception, like X-2 & XIII-2),

Then again most of their titles have been made as drastic improvements in technology happened because of the way the industry was evolving at the time, and drastic aesthetic changes in terms of visual representation.

This is no longer true - certainly not between the FFXV and FFVIIR.

I don´t see them rehassing assets in their new games, their in-house engine being reused for future titles (VIIR part2, XVI and beyond) is the more likely outcome.

What engine is being used at this point has little, if anything at all to do with the assets, since at this point, as both engines in this case are more than versatile enough to use the same files.
After all, they already did port lots of asset over from the engine FFXV was previously on when it was still Versus.

As for VIIR part 2 using their in-house engine - Very unlikely, since the team that will work on it, being the same that worked on part 1, will be have had their entire process and experienced shaped by the Unreal engine, and little to no experience with the FFVX engine.
It also takes much less time to work off of the skeleton used for part 1 in Unreal to make part 2, than to start porting all the assets back over into an engine you have little to no experience with, and then starting from scratch to essentially build something that you already have up and working in Unreal.

The reason the re-use of assets is more viable now than ever is because
A.) The assets are likely to be translate-able into the game - humans generally move the same, dog-like creatures do to, as do dragons etc etc. and there is little change in the medium at the moment making it necessary to brush up on the animations for increased quality - it's already top-notch.
B.) the amount of quality improvement you could achieve in such a small period of time starting from scratch is tiny
C.) Creating assets for the kind of fidelity that FFXV and FFVIIR has is extremely expensive and time-consuming - more so than ever before in the history of the industry, making it economically unsound to do so.

There is literally no reason what so ever to not use, for instance, walking/running/combat/gesture animations etc. for humanoid characters from FFXV in the Remake of VII, as redoing the motion capture for these is not going to give any meaningful quality improvement, it's going to be a waste of time and money, and it's not like these animations aren't going to work with your standard humanoid characters in FFVIIR.

 

[Claymore]

I'll gladly join you in on that conspiracy theory, Hian.

Seriously though, to put it simply, VII:R is going to be an expensive game to make. It just makes absolute sense that they are going to attempt to reuse whatever experience, assets, and parts of the engine that they possibly can from XV. I mean, who didn't see Cloud stealthing and immediately draw comparisons to Noctis? Or some of the battle animation? I think it's more than just experience being shifted along here, they are going to reuse a heck of a lot from XV - at least, I personally think so. But that's just me.

 

[Lulcielid]

To anyone curious, here is the list of all 50 companies that collaborated in the making of KINGSGLAIVE (source):

 

[Flare]

American box art

Spoiler

So uh.... the being on the right in the box art picture.... doesn't it look similar to

Spoiler: Sapphire Weapon

?

 

[lithiumkatana17]

American box art

Spoiler

So uh.... the being on the right in the box art picture.... doesn't it look similar to

Spoiler: Sapphire Weapon

?

Oh god. Don't start.

But yes, It does kinda look like Sapphire Weapon.

 

[Tashasaurous]

Well, the best way to know is wait until the game actually comes out, which is in two months and four days from now.

 

[Lulcielid]

I wouldn't read to deep into, unless you want to think that FF6 & FF15 are tied just because both have Ultros in it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Plot connection or not, it's a big deal as a FFVII fan.

And yes, that totally looks like Sapphire. So that's Emerald, Diamond and Sapphire so far. The presence of an Ultima Weapon almost goes without saying (though VIII beat any other game to the punch 17 years ago in having one that looked similar to VII's), so it's really just Ruby that's left to wonder about.

 

[Ghost X]

I like the idea of having the Weapons again as optional super bosses, if that's their role. Jam pack the game full of them and other optional super bosses .

*Walks past rock after unknowingly completing all criteria on secret list A*
*Rock becomes aggressive*
"Holy fuck, it's an optional super boss!"

 

[lithiumkatana17]

Some interesting concept art from Kingsglaive I found while scrounging through Twitter in search of more pictures of Crowe so I can figure out how the hell her outfit works. Luckily I didn't come up disappointed.

They're a bit blurry, but I found them interesting nonetheless.

Spoiler

ROEN could make a fortune off of Luna's shoes. Some fancy schtuffs.

I hope they release an artbook for Kingsglaive.

 

[Strangelove]

roen would probably sell those shoes for a fortune if they made them


(i'm still bitter about that t-shirt costing so much)

 

[Lex]

I don't mind the weapon's being in this game, they're a FF staple. They do look incredibly similar to VII's (I mean that Diamond shot, jfc) and even if they share the same lore (protectors of the planet or whatever) I don't see it as a big deal either. I'm actually looking forward to seeing what role they're going to play in XV.

 

[lithiumkatana17]

Yeah, the prices are a bit ridiculous. Noctis's shirt actually wouldn't be that hard to make for a cosplay; you just need a shirt of that color and style and a stamp with that skull and crossbones motif with some black fabric paint. Boom.

I just still can't get over Prompto's leopard print pants.

I liked it better when they still had him wearing skinny jeans.

 

[Tetsujin]

Jesus