Final Fantasy XVI

[Theozilla]

well having one playable character might result in more customization options (both in the battle system and gear options).

I doubt there won't be at least guest characters at some points.

Having a party travelling together is way more fun though.

Oh I am sure there will at least be major supporting characters traveling with Clive (the other Dominants who have character blurbs on the site seen to be likely candidates at the moment), but it doesn’t seem like (at the moment at least) that they will even necessarily be AI party members (like FFXV was initially).

Which isn’t to say that doesn’t mean the supporting FFXVI cast won’t be important or relevant, that’s basically how FFXIV worked with its supporting cast until the Trust system (and increased RP-solo duty prominence) was implemented with ShadowBringers. And the main writer of FFXVI was main writer of Heavensward, and people loved Heavensward’s characters (and its sole playable character is effectively a semi-silent character like FF1 and FF3’s WoLs were) and story.

 

[Eerie]

The Dominants seem to be important enough for them to follow us, so we can get attached to them (until they die). I didn't notice but this game is 17+! Is this a first for a mainstream FF?

 

[Theozilla]

The Dominants seem to be important enough for them to follow us, so we can get attached to them (until they die). I didn't notice but this game is 17+! Is this a first for a mainstream FF?

I believe so (Type-0 was rate M, but I don’t think the majority of people would consider it a “mainstream” FF) at least since the ESRB rating system was implemented (though keep in mind the older pre-ESRB-becoming-widespread FF titles may have also had plot points that would get M ratings if they were depicted with the visual fidelity of contemporary triple AAA games, but don’t/didn’t because of the more archaic graphics of the era).

 

[ph14basicbitch]

We're gonna kill the other Dominants in order for Clive to use their powers.

Then we're going to use everyone's powers to punch God in the dick and ~*~ Defy Fate ~*~ so people can go back to the other religious jrpg theme of everyone fulfilling their karma while suffering through the hell of living.

Meaning the real Eikon powers were the friends we killed along the way.

I've not read the entire thread so I don't know whether this has been brought up, but there is something I find off about the UI and the XVI thread on ResetEra has started pointing stuff out about it. The UI has carried over the sci-fi scheme similar to XIII+ which is a weird decision in a medieval fantasy game.

I brought it up earlier, but I feel like I could go on a rant about it. Aside from it looking out of place in a Medieval game, I think multiple parts of it just look unnecessarily flashy.

 

[Fiz]

I brought it up earlier, but I feel like I could go on a rant about it. Aside from it looking out of place in a Medieval game, I think multiple parts of it just look unnecessarily flashy.

I see overly flashy stuff like this and think of Frankie Boyle stood on stage miming the shaking of a bunch of keys going "look at the shiny shiny".


This...

 

[Theozilla]

Keep in mind trailers in general almost always highlight the most flashy parts; the objective of most trailers makes them inherently inclined towards it.

 

[ph14basicbitch]

We're talking about the ui specifically, not that the trailer in general.

A flashy cutscene plays once in a game. A flashy ui is present in every battle through the entire game.

 

[cold_spirit]

One seemingly eternal aspect about FF is the debate over its identity.

We're seeing it now with XVI and how integral party-based combat and adventuring is to fans. To a different extent, we're seeing it with VIIR and the addition of the Whispers. There's literally yet another ongoing thread on this site about how many changes we should expect in future parts, and people are once again pointing at the same developer quotes and game moments to reinforce their arguments.

It happened in 2016 with XV moving the series from turn-based to action.

It happened in the 2000's with XI and Dirge of Cerberus asking, "can a mainline FF be a MMO? Can a spinoff be a shooter?" The answer to the former is still divisive to this day with many believing that XI and XIV shouldn't be numbered entries.

It happened in the late 90's over the series' art style, modern vs traditional, with Kitase pulling the company one way with VIII and Sakaguchi pulling it the other way with IX (this is wonderfully detailed in Resonant Arc's longform video series on VIII, give it a listen when you have the time).

You can create a list of "what makes FF" all you want, but at the top should be this:

Final Fantasy's identity is always in flux.

This is the mentality I've adopted and I tell ya, I'm having a whole lotta fun!

 

[Theozilla]

Also the change from 2D to 3D was a major change for many fans.
The Legend of Zelda series has some similar divisions with fans who think the series’ core identity is the 2D overhead map style while others (probably the majority now) feel the third-person from the back 3D games are the core The Legend of Zelda experience.

 

[LNK]

I'm a simple person. Final fantasy is whatever the creators of final fantasy, release as final fantasy.

 

[Lex]

It's never going to appeal to everyone, none of them do. I can sympathise with what people are saying when they're lamenting the lack of a party system etc. I'm actually shocked that I *don't* care more, but I think it's probably that what I've seen so far looks incredible, and I have faith in YoshiP to deliver a complete (and finished) experience, which is already a step up from XV. Also VII remake did the party system I've always wanted, so the itch is scratched so to speak.

I can't wait to get my hands on it.

 

[JBedford]

Final Fantasy's identity is always in flux.

This is the mentality I've adopted and I tell ya, I'm having a whole lotta fun!

I'm a simple person. Final fantasy is whatever the creators of final fantasy, release as final fantasy.

This is what I don't get.

How can someone be such a Final Fantasy fan when the only guarantee is that the name includes the words "Final Fantasy" and Square's name will appear on it?

Top-quality graphics as a sole USP doesn't really work if you ever go back and play earlier games. Consistent quality is one thing, but the more different each one is the less likely that will be true for you. People already had staggeringly different opinions about the early games. I hated FFXIII, and FFXV was... an experimental mix. At this point you're waiting 5+ years for who knows what.

When people wait years for a new entry to the series, "same title" and "same corporation" is usually not all they are hoping for.

In 2001 I could say I was an FF fan, and I enjoyed most of the ten games at the time. There's been just five since, I've only had the chance to play three of those--and still enjoyed most of them--but how can I say I'm an FF fan now? It's lost its meaning.

Don't worry, I'm still having a whole lotta fun with other games, Square Enix games, and even FF games. It's just waiting for an FF release can no longer be as exciting as it is for other series where I can have expectations greater than "Ifrit will be in it".

Aside: I wonder how Yakuza fans felt about Yakuza 7. The western publishers had the good sense to knock the number off, and it has the benefit of having a brand new story focus. But wow. I guess there are many things to like about Yakuza beside the combat, but becoming a turn-based RPG sure changes things.

 

[LNK]

How can someone be such a Final Fantasy fan when the only guarantee is that the name includes the words "Final Fantasy" and Square's name will appear on it?

Because that is what final fantasy is, when it comes down to it. Yes, I can go into detail about what's in final fantasy games (characters, the story, summons, music, game play, etc) but just because things now, aren't the exact same as they used to be, doesn't make it any less final fantasy.

In 2001 I could say I was an FF fan, and I enjoyed most of the ten games at the time. There's been just five since, I've only had the chance to play three of those--and still enjoyed most of them--but how can I say I'm an FF fan now? It's lost its meaning.

Now imagine the people who never played anything prior to 13. Are you telling them, "nah, these aren't final fantasy games. Only the ones up until 10 are the real final fantasy games"?

Honestly, that's what you're sounding like.

 

[JBedford]

The name "Final Fantasy" had meaning and it doesn't anymore.

Is Dirge of Cerberus less of a "Final Fantasy" game to you than Final Fantasy VII? If your answer is "no" I don't think there's any point in this discussion because we're not discussing the same thing.

Edit: Actually

Now imagine the people who never played anything prior to 13. Are you telling them, "nah, these aren't final fantasy games. Only the ones up until 10 are the real final fantasy games"?

Honestly, that's what you're sounding like.

That's not what I said at all. I never once gave a definition to "Final Fantasy". I said once you'd know about what to expect and now it's no one's guess.

 

[looneymoon]

I dont see 90s/2000sesque FF games making a comeback unless they're side projects or something.

This game looks more interesting to me than any other of the more recent mainline titles for me, FF7R aside. The 13 series and 15 imo had more flaws than positives that weigh em down, 14 doesn't interest me because I cba to spend time on an mmo. That said there are other non-FF games that have grabbed my interest much more, so this might fly under the radar depending on what happens! I'm interested, but not exactly hyped up or anything.

 

[LNK]

The name "Final Fantasy" had meaning and it doesn't anymore.

What exactly was that meaning?

Is Dirge of Cerberus less of a "Final Fantasy" game to you than Final Fantasy VII? If your answer is "no" I don't think there's any point in this discussion because we're not discussing the same thing.

I thought we were talking about mainline games? Games like dirge, WoFF and tactics, are something entirely different.

That's not what I said at all. I never once gave a definition to "Final Fantasy". I said once you'd know about what to expect and now it's no one's guess.

You didn't give a specific definition, but you questioned how I could be a Final Fantasy fan, based on an oversimplified definition I gave.

I dont see 90s/2000sesque FF games making a comeback unless they're side projects or something.

I agree. As much as I'd prefer Final Fantasy to have stayed that way, I'm no longer the target consumer.

 

[ph14basicbitch]

Aside: I wonder how Yakuza fans felt about Yakuza 7. The western publishers had the good sense to knock the number off, and it has the benefit of having a brand new story focus. But wow. I guess there are many things to like about Yakuza beside the combat, but becoming a turn-based RPG sure changes things.

To me, Yakuza and Judgment are "walking around Japan" simulators and interactive jdramas where your 60 hour save file is 50 hours of mini games, so the swap to turn based didn't really bother me much?

But I think there's a couple other factors in my case:
- I played turn based jrpgs on a SNES as a kid, so "the protag is a chuunibyou who grew up playing dq on a SNES and imagines everyone in a turn based battle" is also the right kind of quirky that wouldn't be able to bother me to begin with
- The lack of recent turn based games from major publishers (I guess this is comparable to nostalgia)
- They added ladies as party members

The opinion of someone who never played turn based is probably more what you're looking for here tbh.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I enjoy Final Fantasy because each entry is different and even subversive of the series' structural and thematic conventions. That's precisely it's appeal to me.

I don't see the recurring themes of FF as critical for an FF to be an FF. The whole appeal is seeing how each entry can reinvent and redefine the concepts that are so well known through it's history.

Dirge of Cerberus or Stranger of Paradise are FF as much as FFXIII and FFXV. There's no litmus test other than it being creatively part of the family. And that "family" is purposefully diverse and experimental.

 

[Wol]

FF to me is seeing stylish dudes and hot chicks fighting evil using magic in a epic storyline that makes them grow as individuals, while featuring creative settings, worlds, music... this is the heart of it.

Anyone will tend to choose their preferred aspect to say that aspect is what makes FF. XVI despite supposedly not having party members, it's returning to a medieval setting, focusing on crystals and recurring summons. In this aspect, XVI is more "root FF" than VII or VIII.

A title doesn't have to feature everything that makes FF to be FF in my view. FFT says hello. You can bitch however you like about not having exploration, to me it's FF and a great fucking one.

 

[Lex]

I let go of "the formula" when Square did: when they released X-2 and everything else that came after it. We've been doing this "but it's not *really* FF, is it?" dance in the fandom every single time post FFX. The answer is yes, it's all FF. At this point we've been in the "modern era" of FF for 20 years, since the Enix merger. Incidentally, that's longer than the initial run from I to X

Don't get me wrong, there's still a part of me that pines for the days we got a new world and story to sink our teeth into every one to two years but a time comes when you just need to let that go. They're going to do what they're going to do and you'll either like it or you won't.

All that said, yeah the old "band of misfits travelling the world to save it" trope is something I love about FF, but there's nothing to say that's not the case in XVI. And it doesn't necessarily need to be that either.

 

[LNK]

Dirge of Cerberus or Stranger of Paradise are FF as much as FFXIII and FFXV. There's no litmus test other than it being creatively part of the family. And that "family" is purposefully diverse and experimental.

Good point. They aren't mainline ff games, but they're still ff games

 

[KindOfBlue]

Hell, my first FF was friggin’ Dissidia because I grew up not caring for turned-based RPGs…I’m not big brained enough to get into the nitty-gritty of what is or isn’t FF but if newer installments of the franchise aren’t like the ones I prefer, then I can just…stick to the ones I like? I wish nerd culture was more comfortable accepting video games and movies as products of time that aren’t owed a follow up or a remake, call it a defense mechanism against disappointing sequels if you will lol

 

[JBedford]

The name "Final Fantasy" had meaning and it doesn't anymore.

What exactly was that meaning?

It means that at the time of Final Fantasy X you knew about what to expect from a Final Fantasy game given past Final Fantasy games. I was interested in FFVIII because I had played FFVII, and interested in FFIX because I had played VII and VIII. I was interested in the PS remakes/ports (FFI,II,IV-VI) because I had played FFVII-IX, and I was interested in FFX because I had played all the previous. Battle systems operated entirely by menus and party-driven narratives.

Further games created battle systems that differed more from the core and now here we are calling a game with DMC-style combat the new Final Fantasy.

With each new Final Fantasy I don't know what I'm going to get. So the name "Final Fantasy" alone is meaningless to me.

This is my only point.

The trailers for FFXVI don't look to me like something specifically an "FF-fan" should be into because right now it doesn't seem to resemble anything from previous FF. I'm not going to immediately be interested when a new FF is announced because my interest depends wholely on whatever they feel like doing that time.

They're not bound to any formula, which is great for a developer but I think bad for a series. And if that doesn't ring even a little true then you can't be into many series.

(I'm sure people in this thread are replying to sentiments heard elsewhere, but I've never said anything about wanting them to go back to their old style. I want more turn-based JRPGs but I don't care who makes them. If they stopped making Final Fantasy games I would be a little sad for the most well-known JRPG franchise to end, but that's about it)

 

[Makoeyes987]

Thematic wise you have a lot of FF in XVI. Hell, the theme song has them listing the most recognizable summons in the franchise. From the character designs, the Ivalice/Eorza like setting... In terms of overall aesthetics, it definitely looks and feels like FF.

Gameplay wise it's very different but I think that's always been a thing even before FFX. Going from FFVII, to FFVIII, to FFIX, gave us the widest swing in terms of battle and customization mechanics in the PSone era. The way you play FF has always varied, with the only common factor being ATB turn based battle and some magic/RPG trappings.

Now that the technology has evolved and expanded we're seeing just how far they can push the structuralism that makes up each game's style of play. It's creative evolution.

 

[Fiz]

Thematic wise you have a lot of FF in XVI. Hell, the theme song has them listing the most recognizable summons in the franchise. From the character designs, the Ivalice/Eorza like setting... In terms of overall aesthetics, it definitely looks and feels like FF.

Gameplay wise it's very different but I think that's always been a thing even before FFX. Going from FFVII, to FFVIII, to FFIX, gave us the widest swing in terms of battle and customization mechanics in the PSone era. The way you play FF has always varied, with the only common factor being ATB turn based battle and some magic/RPG trappings.

Now that the technology has evolved and expanded we're seeing just how far they can push the structuralism that makes up each game's style of play. It's creative evolution.

While this is true, and XVI certainly appears to have the typical FF tropes in place. There are certain qualities a series has that many fans won't want to see the back of.

For example, I'm all for the shift towards action RPG combat and think its long overdue. While I can enjoy both turnbased and action, I would always choose action. But, I totally understand why other fans feel its stepped the series away from what it was.

If they do remove party members it will change the feel of the game significantly from what FF games are.

I'll still play it, but I don't think XVI is going to fit what I normally play an FF or JRPG for. I think its shaping up to look like a fit for what I'd normally play a Witcher or perhaps a Naughty Dog game for.

And I think that might be the problem. I love The Witcher and several Naughty Dog games, but I love several JRPG's too. I play them for different reasons, and FF moving into another space will dillute the games I enjoy in the JRPG space.

For me, I'm going to be down to pretty much just Tales Of and Ys for action RPG's and Dragon Quest and maybe the occasional Atelier game for turn based - heck, the latter of which I don't even play for story or combat, I play for the same reasons I play Stardew Valley, Minecraft, or maybe Animal Crossing... a casual crafting/grind game I can pick up and put down on the Switch.

So, it feels like I'll be gaining something in my western rpg and action collection but losing something in my JRPG collection.