Final Fantasy XVI

[ph14basicbitch]

Aside: I wonder how Yakuza fans felt about Yakuza 7. The western publishers had the good sense to knock the number off, and it has the benefit of having a brand new story focus. But wow. I guess there are many things to like about Yakuza beside the combat, but becoming a turn-based RPG sure changes things.

To me, Yakuza and Judgment are "walking around Japan" simulators and interactive jdramas where your 60 hour save file is 50 hours of mini games, so the swap to turn based didn't really bother me much?

But I think there's a couple other factors in my case:
- I played turn based jrpgs on a SNES as a kid, so "the protag is a chuunibyou who grew up playing dq on a SNES and imagines everyone in a turn based battle" is also the right kind of quirky that wouldn't be able to bother me to begin with
- The lack of recent turn based games from major publishers (I guess this is comparable to nostalgia)
- They added ladies as party members

The opinion of someone who never played turn based is probably more what you're looking for here tbh.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I enjoy Final Fantasy because each entry is different and even subversive of the series' structural and thematic conventions. That's precisely it's appeal to me.

I don't see the recurring themes of FF as critical for an FF to be an FF. The whole appeal is seeing how each entry can reinvent and redefine the concepts that are so well known through it's history.

Dirge of Cerberus or Stranger of Paradise are FF as much as FFXIII and FFXV. There's no litmus test other than it being creatively part of the family. And that "family" is purposefully diverse and experimental.

 

[Wol]

FF to me is seeing stylish dudes and hot chicks fighting evil using magic in a epic storyline that makes them grow as individuals, while featuring creative settings, worlds, music... this is the heart of it.

Anyone will tend to choose their preferred aspect to say that aspect is what makes FF. XVI despite supposedly not having party members, it's returning to a medieval setting, focusing on crystals and recurring summons. In this aspect, XVI is more "root FF" than VII or VIII.

A title doesn't have to feature everything that makes FF to be FF in my view. FFT says hello. You can bitch however you like about not having exploration, to me it's FF and a great fucking one.

 

[Lex]

I let go of "the formula" when Square did: when they released X-2 and everything else that came after it. We've been doing this "but it's not *really* FF, is it?" dance in the fandom every single time post FFX. The answer is yes, it's all FF. At this point we've been in the "modern era" of FF for 20 years, since the Enix merger. Incidentally, that's longer than the initial run from I to X

Don't get me wrong, there's still a part of me that pines for the days we got a new world and story to sink our teeth into every one to two years but a time comes when you just need to let that go. They're going to do what they're going to do and you'll either like it or you won't.

All that said, yeah the old "band of misfits travelling the world to save it" trope is something I love about FF, but there's nothing to say that's not the case in XVI. And it doesn't necessarily need to be that either.

 

[LNK]

Dirge of Cerberus or Stranger of Paradise are FF as much as FFXIII and FFXV. There's no litmus test other than it being creatively part of the family. And that "family" is purposefully diverse and experimental.

Good point. They aren't mainline ff games, but they're still ff games

 

[KindOfBlue]

Hell, my first FF was friggin’ Dissidia because I grew up not caring for turned-based RPGs…I’m not big brained enough to get into the nitty-gritty of what is or isn’t FF but if newer installments of the franchise aren’t like the ones I prefer, then I can just…stick to the ones I like? I wish nerd culture was more comfortable accepting video games and movies as products of time that aren’t owed a follow up or a remake, call it a defense mechanism against disappointing sequels if you will lol

 

[JBedford]

The name "Final Fantasy" had meaning and it doesn't anymore.

What exactly was that meaning?

It means that at the time of Final Fantasy X you knew about what to expect from a Final Fantasy game given past Final Fantasy games. I was interested in FFVIII because I had played FFVII, and interested in FFIX because I had played VII and VIII. I was interested in the PS remakes/ports (FFI,II,IV-VI) because I had played FFVII-IX, and I was interested in FFX because I had played all the previous. Battle systems operated entirely by menus and party-driven narratives.

Further games created battle systems that differed more from the core and now here we are calling a game with DMC-style combat the new Final Fantasy.

With each new Final Fantasy I don't know what I'm going to get. So the name "Final Fantasy" alone is meaningless to me.

This is my only point.

The trailers for FFXVI don't look to me like something specifically an "FF-fan" should be into because right now it doesn't seem to resemble anything from previous FF. I'm not going to immediately be interested when a new FF is announced because my interest depends wholely on whatever they feel like doing that time.

They're not bound to any formula, which is great for a developer but I think bad for a series. And if that doesn't ring even a little true then you can't be into many series.

(I'm sure people in this thread are replying to sentiments heard elsewhere, but I've never said anything about wanting them to go back to their old style. I want more turn-based JRPGs but I don't care who makes them. If they stopped making Final Fantasy games I would be a little sad for the most well-known JRPG franchise to end, but that's about it)

 

[Makoeyes987]

Thematic wise you have a lot of FF in XVI. Hell, the theme song has them listing the most recognizable summons in the franchise. From the character designs, the Ivalice/Eorza like setting... In terms of overall aesthetics, it definitely looks and feels like FF.

Gameplay wise it's very different but I think that's always been a thing even before FFX. Going from FFVII, to FFVIII, to FFIX, gave us the widest swing in terms of battle and customization mechanics in the PSone era. The way you play FF has always varied, with the only common factor being ATB turn based battle and some magic/RPG trappings.

Now that the technology has evolved and expanded we're seeing just how far they can push the structuralism that makes up each game's style of play. It's creative evolution.

 

[Fiz]

Thematic wise you have a lot of FF in XVI. Hell, the theme song has them listing the most recognizable summons in the franchise. From the character designs, the Ivalice/Eorza like setting... In terms of overall aesthetics, it definitely looks and feels like FF.

Gameplay wise it's very different but I think that's always been a thing even before FFX. Going from FFVII, to FFVIII, to FFIX, gave us the widest swing in terms of battle and customization mechanics in the PSone era. The way you play FF has always varied, with the only common factor being ATB turn based battle and some magic/RPG trappings.

Now that the technology has evolved and expanded we're seeing just how far they can push the structuralism that makes up each game's style of play. It's creative evolution.

While this is true, and XVI certainly appears to have the typical FF tropes in place. There are certain qualities a series has that many fans won't want to see the back of.

For example, I'm all for the shift towards action RPG combat and think its long overdue. While I can enjoy both turnbased and action, I would always choose action. But, I totally understand why other fans feel its stepped the series away from what it was.

If they do remove party members it will change the feel of the game significantly from what FF games are.

I'll still play it, but I don't think XVI is going to fit what I normally play an FF or JRPG for. I think its shaping up to look like a fit for what I'd normally play a Witcher or perhaps a Naughty Dog game for.

And I think that might be the problem. I love The Witcher and several Naughty Dog games, but I love several JRPG's too. I play them for different reasons, and FF moving into another space will dillute the games I enjoy in the JRPG space.

For me, I'm going to be down to pretty much just Tales Of and Ys for action RPG's and Dragon Quest and maybe the occasional Atelier game for turn based - heck, the latter of which I don't even play for story or combat, I play for the same reasons I play Stardew Valley, Minecraft, or maybe Animal Crossing... a casual crafting/grind game I can pick up and put down on the Switch.

So, it feels like I'll be gaining something in my western rpg and action collection but losing something in my JRPG collection.

 

[Theozilla]

I let go of "the formula" when Square did: when they released X-2 and everything else that came after it. We've been doing this "but it's not *really* FF, is it?" dance in the fandom every single time post FFX. The answer is yes, it's all FF. At this point we've been in the "modern era" of FF for 20 years, since the Enix merger. Incidentally, that's longer than the initial run from I to X

Don't get me wrong, there's still a part of me that pines for the days we got a new world and story to sink our teeth into every one to two years but a time comes when you just need to let that go. They're going to do what they're going to do and you'll either like it or you won't.

All that said, yeah the old "band of misfits travelling the world to save it" trope is something I love about FF, but there's nothing to say that's not the case in XVI. And it doesn't necessarily need to be that either.

Yeah that's basically how I feel (though I don't really have the nostalgia in the same way since I only started playing FF games around 2011-2012 or so).

And while FFXVI may not have playable or even A.I. party members in combat (which I would miss), I don't doubt that the main character will still have major supporting characters/"a party" traveling with them in the story itself (like Heavensward did in FFXIV).

 

[LNK]

With each new Final Fantasy I don't know what I'm going to get. So the name "Final Fantasy" alone is meaningless to me.

This is my only point.

Just because you don't know what you're going to get in newer final fantasy games, that doesn't make the name meaningless for others though. That name still carries a lot of weight for a lot of us. I may not know what kind of combat system I'll get. Or if I'll have a core party that travels with me for the journey, but i know everything else is still there.

The trailers for FFXVI don't look to me like something specifically an "FF-fan" should be into because right now it doesn't seem to resemble anything from previous FF.

It may not resemble your idea of final fantasy, which is fine. What about other peoples' idea of final fantasy? That's why I brought up the people who never played anything before 13. Their whole idea of final fantasy is different from yours. Who's right and who's wrong, when it comes to "what is final fantasy?"

I disagree that 16 doesn't resemble anything from previous final fantasies, as well. I think you're being a little dishonest there.

 

[ultima786]

Uhh, that new trailer was fire

 

[JBedford]

I disagree that 16 doesn't resemble anything from previous final fantasies, as well. I think you're being a little dishonest there.

Because it features FF summons? It looks like an M-rated tale about an angry man going around murdering people who transform into monsters one-by-one to acquire their powers. I guess the probably evil empire in the background is very FF. Also the gameplay is DMC...

That's why I brought up the people who never played anything before 13. Their whole idea of final fantasy is different from yours. Who's right and who's wrong, when it comes to "what is final fantasy?"

I'm not talking about a personal idea of what Final Fantasy is. For our contexts, Final Fantasy is every roman numeraled Final Fantasy (every series gets wild in spin-offs). Each game the umbrella only widens, and there's not even a recent trend. X, XII, XIII, XV, and XVI each have vastly different combat. XV was the first action game, and yet XVI has already moved into the extremes of DMC-style action. How far we've come since the round-based system of FFI. (I'm sure the MMOs are each very much their own things too, I don't know).

It's not about old-style v. new-style. I'm talking old-style v. whatever they want to do this time. People who only played recent FFs were still not predicting this shift in gameplay. FF's identity can no longer be said to be in its gameplay.

I am primarily speaking about battle systems, because gameplay is king for me, and because it's hard to gather much else concrete from trailers.

 

[cold_spirit]

How can someone be such a Final Fantasy fan when the only guarantee is that the name includes the words "Final Fantasy" and Square's name will appear on it?

Some of the best advice I received in our current "age of content" is this:

Follow creators, not series or brands.

The lineage of FF creative leads spans generations. From Hironobu Sakaguchi, to Yoshinori Kitase and Hiroyuki Ito, to Tetsuya Nomura, Motomu Toriyama, and Naoki Yoshida. These people and the teams they lead are the true soul of FF, not summons or parties or whatever. At the end of the day, "Final Fantasy" is a brand name slapped on a bunch of video games to sell copies. What we're really following is the imagination of an extremely talented group of people. Personally, I think it's best when creators are allowed to make exactly what they want to make, even if it does push the envelope to some people. If that means FFXVI is a solo action-RPG, then so be it.

They're not bound to any formula, which is great for a developer but I think bad for a series. And if that doesn't ring even a little true then you can't be into many series.

Final Fantasy enjoys it's level of success as the most recognizable JRPG series in the world because of its spirit of reinvention, not despite it. Without that spirit, FF would still be in the shadow of Dragon Quest like it was on NES. It's the series' willingness to evolve that ensures we'll see FFXVII and beyond.

 

[LNK]

Because it features FF summons? It looks like an M-rated tale about an angry man going around murdering people who transform into monsters one-by-one to acquire their powers. I guess the probably evil empire in the background is very FF. Also the gameplay is DMC...

It also has heavy elements of fantasy, magic, the music, chocobos. Again, it has most of the core elements that all final fantasies have.

I'm not talking about a personal idea of what Final Fantasy is. For our contexts, Final Fantasy is every roman numeraled Final Fantasy (every series gets wild in spin-offs). Each game the umbrella only widens, and there's not even a recent trend. X, XII, XIII, XV, and XVI each have vastly different combat. XV was the first action game, and yet XVI has already moved into the extremes of DMC-style action. How far we've come since the round-based system of FFI. (I'm sure the MMOs are each very much their own things too, I don't know)

Yes, final fantasy has evolved from its first game. Even more so since SE was formed. Mario games evolved as well.
I don't get what point you're trying to make, besides you saying you don't get how people who claim to be ff fans, can say what I said.
When it comes down to it, it's true though. Whatever the creators put out under the name of final fantasy, is final fantasy. Just because they've changed their formula a bit, doesn't make it any less final fantasy. They decide what it is.

It's not about old-style v. new-style. I'm talking old-style v. whatever they want to do this time. People who only played recent FFs were still not predicting this shift in gameplay. FF's identity can no longer be said to be in its gameplay.

But, does it really matter, when it comes down to it? I get it does for you, but for people like me, it doesn't. Some of us don't make predictions about the gameplay. Especially because we didn't start from ff1

I am primarily speaking about battle systems, because gameplay is king for me, and because it's hard to gather much else concrete from trailers.

Already went over it, but there's summons/magic/bad guy/chocobos/fantasy medieval setting/music/Mc/story. Besides gameplay and possible lack of party members, it's got all the core elements.

 

[LNK]

Some of the best advice I received in our current "age of content" is this:

Follow creators, not series or brands.

The lineage of FF creative leads spans generations. From Hironobu Sakaguchi, to Yoshinori Kitase and Hiroyuki Ito, to Tetsuya Nomura, Motomu Toriyama, and Naoki Yoshida. These people and the teams they lead are the true soul of FF, not summons or parties or whatever. At the end of the day, "Final Fantasy" is a brand name slapped on a bunch of video games to sell copies. What we're really following is the imagination of an extremely talented group of people. Personally, I think it's best when creators are allowed to make exactly what they want to make, even if it does push the envelope to some people. If that means FFXVI is a solo action-RPG, then so be it.



Final Fantasy enjoys it's level of success as the most recognizable JRPG series in the world because of it's spirit of reinvention, not despite it. Without that spirit, FF would still be in the shadow of Dragon Quest like it was on NES. It's the series' willingness to evolve that ensures we'll see FFXVII and beyond.

It's the same reason why Nas is still putting out new music. After his untitled album, he evolved.

 

[Wol]

the first generations of the franchise maintained mostly the same identity because it was the same people at the helm (which also resulted in better consistency in quality and reception). PS2 era onwards had different teams developing their own games. Just look at the massive difference from XII to X or XV to XIII.

 

[Theozilla]

the first generations of the franchise maintained mostly the same identity because it was the same people at the helm (which also resulted in better consistency in quality and reception). PS2 era onwards had different teams developing their own games. Just look at the massive difference from XII to X or XV to XIII.

Though the technology of the time also limited how much variability could be done in a video game as well for the early FFs too.

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

I think this was discussed long ago? Like even Sakaguchi commented on this stuff around 20 years ago or so?

 

[ultima786]

Follow creators, not series or brands.

While I appreciate what you are saying, the franchise itself does have an identity that is recognizable both in terms of imagery, spirit, and even quality. While I tend to be very closely tied to Nomura and Kitase, I am still going to watch FF closely as a whole. Afterall, this is Square's bonified franchise; they're gonna do whatever they can to ensure these games are all good. At least the mainline ones. There have been misses, for sure. But I've never regretted playing a Final Fantasy, even the ones I loved the least.

 

[Wol]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1532541434708242432

Worth a read.

 

[Fiz]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1532541434708242432

Worth a read.

I'm still not feeling it. The more I look at it, the more doubts I'm having.


The character designs really aren't inspiring to me. They feel so, same old, same old. Even Clives name makes me feel underwhelmed.

All this talk about Ivalice-inspired FF's and political storytelling also isn't helping. FF-T wasn't my thing, FF12 is the only FF I DNF'd because it started to drag and just lost steam for me and I'm not a grear lover of FF14... I mean its pretty good but not enough for me to rave over it.

The thought of only having Clive playable isn't resonating with me.

I don't even know what I think about it having an adult age rating. Thats new and when FF goes "dark and edgy" it can have mixed results. While FF6 and FF7OG did well, I have Dirge of Cerberus flashbacks.

I don't know, I will definitely be following it and picking it up. But I have this sinking feeling that its not going to do the western thing a well as western games and not do the Japanese thing a well as other Japanese games. If that makes sense.

I hope I'm wrong, I really do.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Dirge of Cerberus didn't have an adult age rating lol

The more apt comparison would be FFXV and FF Type 0.

 

[Fiz]

Dirge of Cerberus didn't have an adult age rating lol

The more apt comparison would be FFXV and FF Type 0.

I meant the edge. Lol

I mean, we don't have much to go on. It came to mind because its darker and edgier.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'd say with 1000% accuracy that FFXV and especially Type-0 are far more edgier than Dirge of Cerberus.

Aside from the memorable character designs and Gackt's inclusion, DC is not nearly as heavy or tinged with pain and loss like those two games are.

Hell, how could I forget Stranger of Paradise, Final Fantasy Origin? That's edgier too