Roger
He/him
- AKA
- Minato
So much this.
That's not really fair. Before Crisis and Last Order derailed the same backstory a lot more for a lot less. At least Genesis was someone they were planning to do something with in future.
GENESIS: Tell me all we know!
- Thread starter Blade
- Start date
So much this.
Octo
KULT OF KERMITU
- AKA
- Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
Don't get me wrong, I think the compilation is a massive shitheap with a few teeny tiny little gold nuggets in it. I was just talking about CC for the purpose of this thread, because Genesis is most prominent in CC.
And yeah, there is an awful lot of stupid shit in Before Crisis and Last Order, and its only because I like the Turks so much that I grin and bear it
And yeah, there is an awful lot of stupid shit in Before Crisis and Last Order, and its only because I like the Turks so much that I grin and bear it
Danseru-kun
Pro Adventurer
Though I'm pretty neutral on the whole Genesis clones invasion thing. I do wish that CC has Avalanche as it's main antagonist. WHOAH JUST IMAGINE: ELFE VS ZACK! That would have been an awesome boss battle!
Unlucky
WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN
Aaaaand this is why I love you
I always thought of Sephiroth as someone so sensational, so unique. While it's true that none of the other First Classes can ever be on the same league as him, I seriously have a problem that there is someone similar, who also has a customized outfit, who also brandishes a flashy weapon and such. Well Angeal is a First Class too, but at least he's low-profile and does not have any of those Sephirothy characteristics (he never really uses the Buster Sword, right?). That, and he's not a fruity-looking mofo.
Wolfmania
Saint of Killers
Oh, this. We all know Genesis is just the continuation of Nomura's fanfiction. It started out with Kuja, and re-surfaced in Genesis much more prominantly.
I'm sitting in my ass here just wondering why does he not put Genesis in Dissidia? We all know he wants to.
The saddest thing, is that as much as I hate Genesis, and I do, because he's becoming such a presence in the Compilation, and had a few good scenes(i.e Minerva + Genesis), I can't help but sorta go easy on him at times in regards to criticism. Even though I know I shouldn't.
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ForceStealer
Double Growth
Nomura had nothing to do with Kuja. At all. Nor did he have anything to do with Genesis' plot or characterization, for that matter. Only his design, which I don't really think looks ALL THAT MUCH like Gackt. He just looks like, well, the rest of Nomua's characters.
Taken in a vacuum, in CC, I don't have a huge problem with Genesis. Dude's unstable, and so he latches onto a work of fiction with an unhealthy intensity. I've known people like that in real life. Furthermore, I gave Square credit for not threatening THE WORLD. Genesis would do anything to stop from dying, but at no point was he threatening the entire world. Yeah he makes that threat that he'll "take the world with" him if necessary. But we're not given any indication that he has some sort of plan to that end. Taken as he is in Crisis Core, I don't have a big problem with him.
The problem is that it does not jive with the info we were given in Dirge, and that the infor we were given in Dirge sounds like its building to something MUCH MUCH cooler than what we got.
Taken in a vacuum, in CC, I don't have a huge problem with Genesis. Dude's unstable, and so he latches onto a work of fiction with an unhealthy intensity. I've known people like that in real life. Furthermore, I gave Square credit for not threatening THE WORLD. Genesis would do anything to stop from dying, but at no point was he threatening the entire world. Yeah he makes that threat that he'll "take the world with" him if necessary. But we're not given any indication that he has some sort of plan to that end. Taken as he is in Crisis Core, I don't have a big problem with him.
The problem is that it does not jive with the info we were given in Dirge, and that the infor we were given in Dirge sounds like its building to something MUCH MUCH cooler than what we got.
Lord Noctis
Harbinger of Darkness
- AKA
- Caius Ballad
Captain Jack Harkness
not a out-of-bounds guy
- AKA
- 4nn4-chan, Loras Tyrell, Loki
starting with the lack of gravity and real phisics laws (i.e. the scene in AC when everybody throw Cloud..not, maybe just every scene in AC)Silly fool, everything wrong with the compilation is Nomura's fault
Lord Noctis
Harbinger of Darkness
- AKA
- Caius Ballad
starting with the lack of gravity and real phisics laws (i.e. the scene in AC when everybody throw Cloud..not, maybe just every scene in AC)
But I like all the over the top rule of cool stuff
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
@Wolfmania: Here's the link to the article The Darkness of Shinra -- Deepground's History Revealed
Anyone noticed that what Zack and Sephiroth get hung up about is that Genesis left and not the reasons why he left? It always seems like they're asking him why he left and then rushing into a fight without trying to understand what he's saying.
Anyone noticed that what Zack and Sephiroth get hung up about is that Genesis left and not the reasons why he left? It always seems like they're asking him why he left and then rushing into a fight without trying to understand what he's saying.
Captain Jack Harkness
not a out-of-bounds guy
- AKA
- 4nn4-chan, Loras Tyrell, Loki
well, for a while Zack misundestood the subject of the phrase "we're monster".
Zack thought that the 'we' means 'SOLDIERs', but it mean 'me, Angeal (and Sephiroth)' (i'm not really sure that he always known that Sephiroth too was a OWA).
are you meaning that phrase?
Zack thought that the 'we' means 'SOLDIERs', but it mean 'me, Angeal (and Sephiroth)' (i'm not really sure that he always known that Sephiroth too was a OWA).
are you meaning that phrase?
Roger
He/him
- AKA
- Minato
The way Genesis frames his answers, I can't blame them. Genesis can rarely be compelled to have conversation aboutthe here and the now, without acting like he's the middle of an a opera.
Wolfmania
Saint of Killers
I'm not so sure about that. I think Genesis was referring to every SOLDIER there.
If only because later Zack himself refers to SOLDIER as a den of monsters, possibly recalling Genesis's line.
Roger
He/him
- AKA
- Minato
Okay, which one the hell is it. Are Type G Jenova cells the basis for your experiments or only for your Tsviets, did you do crap to Weiss to alter him or didn't you? You can't use every idea that pops into your head for a story, let alone for the same guys.
And have these scientists ever heard of Sephiroth and Angeal, both greater successes then Genesis?
Wolfmania
Saint of Killers
Nice catch there. I got that too and found It strange.
Basically, I wouldn't trust that article much, as the Ultimania translations and CC/DoC itse'lf(where Weiss and Nero state Genesis is their older brother, much like Cloud is Kadaj's older brother) say Weiss is a Genesis spawn, as are ALL the colored Tsviets.
And meh, Seph and Angeal were Shinra's greatest success, but the results probably only showed when they actually started fighting. I have no idea what made Genesis so attractive to them. He basically just spawned inferior SOLDIERS to the elites, either way.
Heck, wait. Didn't they deem Genesis and Angeal failed experiments since birth because of the better efficacy of Seph's Pure S-cells? What kind of moron of a scientist would try and build an Ancient out of a failed experiment when you've got a Hojo-certified sucess there?
Then again, the reason was probably Hojo himself. Doubt he'd let some inferior lout run the Sephiroth Copy project.
But then again, there's Square
Basically, I wouldn't trust that article much, as the Ultimania translations and CC/DoC itse'lf(where Weiss and Nero state Genesis is their older brother, much like Cloud is Kadaj's older brother) say Weiss is a Genesis spawn, as are ALL the colored Tsviets.
And meh, Seph and Angeal were Shinra's greatest success, but the results probably only showed when they actually started fighting. I have no idea what made Genesis so attractive to them. He basically just spawned inferior SOLDIERS to the elites, either way.
Heck, wait. Didn't they deem Genesis and Angeal failed experiments since birth because of the better efficacy of Seph's Pure S-cells? What kind of moron of a scientist would try and build an Ancient out of a failed experiment when you've got a Hojo-certified sucess there?
Then again, the reason was probably Hojo himself. Doubt he'd let some inferior lout run the Sephiroth Copy project.
But then again, there's Square
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Blade
That Man
- AKA
- Darkside-Ky/Mimeblade
Elfe' kinda reminds me of Lightning, take that for what it's worth...
As far as the whole "Unique Snowflake" Sephiroth thing...aren't you guys fangirling him a bit? Sephiroth is still absurdly strong, that hasn't changed a bit. Genesis couldn't touch him. Angeal barely stopped him. That has nothing to do with the importance Genesis held, though...not as a plot lead, mind you, but as a FOIL.
In Shakespeare plays, a "Foil" is a character that plays off a lead character's role, based on their role in the story. Genesis is Sephiroth's foil in a way.
Genesis was Sephiroth's foil due to power-envy, prestige-envy, though Genesis had a home and a friend, unlike Sephiroth who barely associated with anyone.
As far as their roles as members of SOLDIER are concerned...it's just like being any sort of employee at a big company...if somebody decides to walk off-site and quit their job, you just let them go...you don't ask them WHY they left if they have their own reasons. The "why" is related to Genesis' origins BECAUSE he wasn't entirely human, nor was Angeal or Sephiroth, so that was why they focused on that side of the plot.
To me, the whole Loveless bit was Genesis' way of rationalizing the insanity that was his life. It was so screwy that he had to think it was some fantastical melodramatic epic poem of some kind, otherwise it just couldn't make sense any other way.
Like I said, Genesis was Sephiroth's foil...where Genesis took the role of a "hero in a story", Sephiroth took the role of a "hero who fell from grace" and went mad and evolved into something inhuman...they pretty much faced the same despair but one held on to hope of redemption and found it, namely Genesis.
Also bear in mind this is mostly Hojo's doing...that rat-bastard...
Unlucky
WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN
Oh, I don't know. What I posted a page ago is exactly how I feel about it. And Octo was spot on about what she said about that too. But then again I can't personally say CC is a good game, I don't hate it but it fails on so many levels, starting from Zack's storyline/ character execution to the sensationalizing of SOLDIER like they were WWE superstars to the goofy insertion of J-pop during Cloud's lament. So I guess it's safe to say that part of my dislike for Genesis can be blamed for CC being a lousy game (though as he is, I'd still hate him if he appears in ANY good game).
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
Oh good, I thought I was seeing things. Glad to know I'm not the only one.
This is why I don't think Sephiroth thought Genesis and Angeal were anything special. He could defeat them the same as he could defeat anyone else. And then it turns out they're as unique as he is...
THANK YOU! *loves literary analysis*
And even when they don't ask why Genesis left, he gives them the reason. Only Sephiroth and Zack don't believe him. Or they do, but by that time it's too late.
I never thought of it that way, but it does fit his personality.
This is the reason I like Genesis so much. He's got every reason to go crazy or commit suicide, but he doesn't because he knows there has to be a better ending. Actually, he reminds me of Cloud in ACC, only Genesis didn't have any of the emotional support Cloud does.
I still can't help but wonder what would happen Sephiroth had fond the real data surrounding his birth in the Shin-Ra manor, or had woken up Vincent (how didn't he find him, I thought he looked everywhere for data). The thing with Genesis is that everything he says is true, it's just the timing/circumstances are always wrong or people take it the wrong way.
Roger
He/him
- AKA
- Minato
His power wasn't the point. It was the "I knew I wasn't like the others, i knew mine was a special existence." Hence why he didn't associate with anyone. Now there are two people exactly like him right there, going through what he went through before he did. Being a little more powerful doesn't matter all that much.
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
Only they didn't. Up until they found out about degradation, Genesis and Angeal had a normal life. Anything out of the ordinary happened so long ago they have no memory about it. Very different from Sephiroth who grew up in Hojo's lab.
I think its the "grew up in Hojo's lab" that caused Sephrioth to think he was a special existence more then the fact he was more powerful then everybody else. Then he found out he wasn't the only one who was the product a lab experiment... well, we know how that turned out.
Blade
That Man
- AKA
- Darkside-Ky/Mimeblade
What Obsidian said, but also, I think to some extent Sephiroth never got the emotional encouragement Angeal or Genesis did while being in SOLDIER.
Angeal is very down-to-earth, thinking of his father and the importance of protecting those around him. His finding out he wasn't human was just as shocking as Genesis' reaction, but he somehow maintained composure through Zack's steadfast friendship alone.
Genesis is the first to realise he's not human and at the same time realise he is also dying...growing up on a farm the way he did, reading books and such, I can only assume his pleasant life was shattered. He felt he needed his friend Angeal to shoulder his turmoil...and probably spoke to him many times when the two left SOLDIER leaving Zack behind.
What's more, when Zack finally has some semblance of what's going on, he actually begins to converse with Genesis and understands his desperation (reading between the lines of the poem to his desperate cries for help). Not only is Genesis dealing with his physical condition deteriorating, he's at odds with Shinra Company who are hunting him down.
As if that weren't enough, Genesis has a very cocky "hero streak" in him that relates to his dream to actually become a hero (this is very similar to Cloud's dream actually)...when he fights Sephiroth, it's very heated and hot-blooded, to the point he considers Sephiroth his absolute rival (even compared to his friend Angeal). To me it's strange that Angeal doesn't view Sephiroth this way at all, yet Zack still idolizes Sephiroth in some small way (even Cloud did, based on what he knew of him).
That sense of rivalry escalates even more when the truth slowly reveals itself. Genesis isn't just trying to find the truth, he's trying to find meaning in his life...even if that meaning is muddled in a Loveless poem. He still WANTS to be a hero (this relates to Zack's "embracing your dreams"), despite his circumstances...so when he discovers JENOVA, part of what he says to Sephiroth is Spite (due to his rivalry), part of it is that he simply wants a future, (which for some reason Sephiroth flatly denies him...but actually comes out much later when Sephiroth claims he is to "inherit" the power of the Ancients and rule the planet, in other words, Sephiroth deeply distrusted everyone around him from the very beginning, unlike Genesis), and also, part of it has to do with seeking solace in the fact he isn't the only being with inhuman aspects...that is to say, he was HOPING Sephiroth would take his side and understand him like Angeal had...he was looking for friendship in his rivalry, but the truth, along with the spite, were part of the trigger that set Sephiroth over the edge.
Somehow further along the way he found comfort and truth from Zack, despite the chaos around him...which actually lead to Genesis amending his ways and actually finding a NEW path.
Contrast this with Sephiroth, and you realise just how lonely Sephiroth truly was...seeking solace in hatred for others, seeking spite which he unleashed on Cloud and even Tifa and especially Aerith. Even when Cloud put him down for the first time, he wouldn't go without a fight...and I think more to the point, Sephiroth was scared of being alone.
In Dissidia, Sephiroth keeps trying to give Cloud a reason to fight, when Cloud isn't the one who needs it...it's Sephiroth projecting his wishes on to Cloud. When Cloud flatly draws a line, it's Sephiroth who says with a rather fearful tone "Y-you don't exist--anywhere!" He was frightened of not existing, of not being real (he habitually taunts Cloud for being a puppet, but the real puppet was Sephiroth himself, a fabricated being!).
You could say right here, that the difference between Genesis and Sephiroth, is that Sephiroth didn't know he could find a place to be and was always wandering in the dark, relying on his instinct he inherited from JENOVA, and almost always the truths he discovered he distrusted and crushed, unable to accept his remaining human emotions and sadness or capable of trusting anyone...this culminates when he taunts Cloud once more, trying to crush what he cherishes...yet Cloud responds by saying "There is nothing [he doesn't] cherish".
Angeal is very down-to-earth, thinking of his father and the importance of protecting those around him. His finding out he wasn't human was just as shocking as Genesis' reaction, but he somehow maintained composure through Zack's steadfast friendship alone.
Genesis is the first to realise he's not human and at the same time realise he is also dying...growing up on a farm the way he did, reading books and such, I can only assume his pleasant life was shattered. He felt he needed his friend Angeal to shoulder his turmoil...and probably spoke to him many times when the two left SOLDIER leaving Zack behind.
What's more, when Zack finally has some semblance of what's going on, he actually begins to converse with Genesis and understands his desperation (reading between the lines of the poem to his desperate cries for help). Not only is Genesis dealing with his physical condition deteriorating, he's at odds with Shinra Company who are hunting him down.
As if that weren't enough, Genesis has a very cocky "hero streak" in him that relates to his dream to actually become a hero (this is very similar to Cloud's dream actually)...when he fights Sephiroth, it's very heated and hot-blooded, to the point he considers Sephiroth his absolute rival (even compared to his friend Angeal). To me it's strange that Angeal doesn't view Sephiroth this way at all, yet Zack still idolizes Sephiroth in some small way (even Cloud did, based on what he knew of him).
That sense of rivalry escalates even more when the truth slowly reveals itself. Genesis isn't just trying to find the truth, he's trying to find meaning in his life...even if that meaning is muddled in a Loveless poem. He still WANTS to be a hero (this relates to Zack's "embracing your dreams"), despite his circumstances...so when he discovers JENOVA, part of what he says to Sephiroth is Spite (due to his rivalry), part of it is that he simply wants a future, (which for some reason Sephiroth flatly denies him...but actually comes out much later when Sephiroth claims he is to "inherit" the power of the Ancients and rule the planet, in other words, Sephiroth deeply distrusted everyone around him from the very beginning, unlike Genesis), and also, part of it has to do with seeking solace in the fact he isn't the only being with inhuman aspects...that is to say, he was HOPING Sephiroth would take his side and understand him like Angeal had...he was looking for friendship in his rivalry, but the truth, along with the spite, were part of the trigger that set Sephiroth over the edge.
Somehow further along the way he found comfort and truth from Zack, despite the chaos around him...which actually lead to Genesis amending his ways and actually finding a NEW path.
Contrast this with Sephiroth, and you realise just how lonely Sephiroth truly was...seeking solace in hatred for others, seeking spite which he unleashed on Cloud and even Tifa and especially Aerith. Even when Cloud put him down for the first time, he wouldn't go without a fight...and I think more to the point, Sephiroth was scared of being alone.
In Dissidia, Sephiroth keeps trying to give Cloud a reason to fight, when Cloud isn't the one who needs it...it's Sephiroth projecting his wishes on to Cloud. When Cloud flatly draws a line, it's Sephiroth who says with a rather fearful tone "Y-you don't exist--anywhere!" He was frightened of not existing, of not being real (he habitually taunts Cloud for being a puppet, but the real puppet was Sephiroth himself, a fabricated being!).
You could say right here, that the difference between Genesis and Sephiroth, is that Sephiroth didn't know he could find a place to be and was always wandering in the dark, relying on his instinct he inherited from JENOVA, and almost always the truths he discovered he distrusted and crushed, unable to accept his remaining human emotions and sadness or capable of trusting anyone...this culminates when he taunts Cloud once more, trying to crush what he cherishes...yet Cloud responds by saying "There is nothing [he doesn't] cherish".
Roger
He/him
- AKA
- Minato
So in other words, he wasn't special in any profound way beyond his power. He was just lonely. Yeah cool, possible and everything, still throws the whole uniqueness thing straight outta the window. Which what we were talking about. In FFVII, when he said "I knew mine was a special existence", he had a point. For all we know, his was a special existence considering his manner of birth. Now, we got two other half-Jenova spawns running around and (until the reveal), they entirely capable of just being just normal people and so now we do know better. Sephiroth has nowhere but himself to look for his problems.
Which is perfectly decent and interesting characterisation in it's own right, I'm not knocking that. But it wasn't the way it was in FFVII.
Genesis did kind of turn most of SOLDIER into mindslaves of his truly, and got the Director of SOLDIER and Sephiroth's only other friend to leave Shinra, basically ruining SOLDIER forever, one of friends was eventually going to kinda sorta hold that against him.
Danseru-kun
Pro Adventurer
I loved Crisis Core because I think it went well on everything concerning Zack's character development up to his death, but I think it's mediocre on eveything else 'cept graphics and music. And of course, they could have played the J-Pop at the credits, not the death scene.
I actually like the concept of Sephiroth having buddies but I hated Genesis being in the Mako Reactor. I don't like Hollander or the copies. I think whole crisis in CC is pretty meh.
If I'm going to rewrite CC I really want it to be vs Anti-Shinra groups. There could be others aside Avalanche and it would be more interesting to see Zack slowly realize that he had been killing people with good intentions. I wish there were more Cloud in a way that he'll be beside you in missions shooting enemies, the gameplay could have included temporary allies.
CC has really immense potential, but it wrapped itself on the Genesis storyline making it feel that CC is made to explain the guy in DoC rather than a standalone prequel. I think many people like me were still able to see the spirit of the story, thus they get emotional on the ending, but if you know too much FFVII, I think it's kinda hard to find that spirit.