GENESIS: Tell me all we know!

[Wolfmania]

CC has really immense potential, but it wrapped itself on the Genesis storyline making it feel that CC is made to explain the guy in DoC rather than a standalone prequel.

Honestly, I don't doubt that is very much a part of CC. And even that they couldn't maintain overly consistant because in DoC, it is an electric discharge from Weiss's body that awakens Genesis.

That goes against what CC established he'd wake up for, that being since he is now technically a WEAPON, accepted and anointed by Minerva herself, he'd only awaken when the planet needed him. While they were writting Genesis's story after DoC they probably didn't even care about that specific tid-bit.

That being said, I really do like Crisis Core, even if it has It's dark side and inconsistancies like that. Heck, I can't even believe i'm going soft on Genesis. Well. At least I can say It was much better than frickin' Dirge.

 

[Unlucky]

I'm positive there's a thread for CC complaints but I'd like to reply here anyway.

To be fair to Crisis Core, I don't find it entirely bad at all. In fact I managed to finish it and consider replaying it sometime, and I don't finish games that I find shitty. However, I think this is a common opinion among us here, it had so much potential that went down the drain.

I loved Crisis Core because I think it went well on everything concerning Zack's character development up to his death

This is actually one of my main beefs with CC. To me Zack's storyline wasn't sufficiently explored. It's like he's just mixed up in all the shit that everybody else was experiencing, and we just got to see his thoughts on it because he's the main character. Sure the game touches on his own issues about Angeal, Shinra's motives etc but it was sloppily done, it wasn't stressed enough. The whole game to me felt like SE was beating a deadline and had to release the game ASAP.

I actually like the concept of Sephiroth having buddies but I hated Genesis being in the Mako Reactor.

I second the latter thought, but to the first, I have to disagree with. It's been discussed already why Sephiroth's uniqueness is essential to maintain the drama of his storyline. Furthermore, the First Classes' celebrity status contradicts with my headcanon of them being adored, yet FEARED. It irks me that they have official fanclubs of women squeeing over their awesomeness.

If I'm going to rewrite CC I really want it to be vs Anti-Shinra groups. There could be others aside Avalanche and it would be more interesting to see Zack slowly realize that he had been killing people with good intentions. I wish there were more Cloud in a way that he'll be beside you in missions shooting enemies, the gameplay could have included temporary allies.

Seconded, especially on the Cloud part because Clack is the true canon

I think many people like me were still able to see the spirit of the story, thus they get emotional on the ending, but if you know too much FFVII, I think it's kinda hard to find that spirit.

I don't think I know too much FFVII but I didn't get emotional at the ending, mainly because Cloud's flashback of Zack's final stand was something more brutal in the OG (no final words, and if I remember correctly, he was even shot up close). But I do understand it was done the way it was in CC maybe to emphasize the 'living legacy' promise, and that the cruel version of the OG is too dark to fit with the mood of the CC.

That being said, I really do like Crisis Core, even if it has It's dark side and inconsistancies like that. Heck, I can't even believe i'm going soft on Genesis. Well. At least I can say It was much better than frickin' Dirge.

I also find it much better than DoC. I only played a third of it and never touched it again.

BTW, Wolfmania, is that Squall in your profile pic? He's also a character I hate that I'm going soft on

And I just want to add this to be clear to everyone, since this is a Genesis thread.. sure I don't like Genesis, but my hate is turning into passion not like I'm one to write long-ass essays about why he sucks balls, I think it's even fun to discuss him

 

[Roger]

Well as long as he shuts the fuck up about LOVELESS now that Minerva has validated his insecure little existence, he is a promising enough character. Someone with strong connection to SOLDIER, Sephiroth, Zack and the original wielder of the Buster Sword I think could be just the right foil for Cloud. More then Zack and Sephiroth Genesis basically IS the arrogant elitist and proud SOLDIER First Class Asshole that considers himself a hero that Cloud pretended to be on Disc 1. I look forward to their interactions.

 

[Unlucky]

Well as long as he shuts the fuck up about LOVELESS now that Minerva has validated his insecure little existence, he is a promising enough character.

Amen to that.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I've always read that Genesis and Sephiroth were of equal strength for quite some time.

 

[Unlucky]

Can you give the sauce for that info, Mog?

I always thought Sephy was the strongest in the compilation, stronger even than Jenova herself.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Sephy ends up the strongest, but there was a time where Genesis and Sephiroth's strength paralled each other for a time.

The best source of that? Here, of course!

http://thelifestream.net/final-fant...acter-profile-from-the-crisis-core-ultimania/

Besides, it's not as if Sephy came out the womb busting up planets; he had to grow in strength in a linear (and after certain events, exponential) pattern like everyone else; it's easy to see how someone with similar powers went toe to toe with him on the scale for a time. Sephiroth however had more opportunity, time, and ultimately a higher ceiling.

 

[Captain Jack Harkness]

watching the battle between him and sephiroth i always had the idea that Seph is a lot stronger than Genesis..
or maybe Seph was just bluffing

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Genesis didn't really get a chance to show his stuff because Angeal stopped the fight between the two (by himself, which, if anything shows that all three of their combat abilities are equal enough to cancel each other out) before Genesis pulled out his big guns.

 

[Roger]

Sephy ends up the strongest, but there was a time where Genesis and Sephiroth's strength paralled each other for a time.

The best source of that? Here, of course!

http://thelifestream.net/final-fant...acter-profile-from-the-crisis-core-ultimania/

Besides, it's not as if Sephy came out the womb busting up planets; he had to grow in strength in a linear (and after certain events, exponential) pattern like everyone else; it's easy to see how someone with similar powers went toe to toe with him on the scale for a time. Sephiroth however had more opportunity, time, and ultimately a higher ceiling.

Really? I'm pretty sure that the moment Genesis was born he hailed as totally average and normal and thus a useless failure and tossed to the wayside whilst when Sephiroth was born they could easily see he was awesome and great success.

And if they really were equals, I dunno why Genesis just let's Sephiroth totally trounch him and Angeal at the same time in practice as we've been shown.

And Angeal stopped the fight exactly because Genesis would have destroyed the building and everyone in it before defeating Sephiroth.

If ever Genesis was at the same level as Sephiroth it was during Crisis Core and nowhere else

 

[Lord Noctis]

Genesis didn't really get a chance to show his stuff because Angeal stopped the fight between the two (by himself, which, if anything shows that all three of their combat abilities are equal enough to cancel each other out) before Genesis pulled out his big guns.

Yeah, this

Besides, that fight always seemed like more of an escelating event to me. First Genesis took the upper-hand by powering up his sword. Then Sephiroth knocked ihm into the air and regained the advantadge, now realising that Genesis is serious. Genesis starts hurling fireballs and manages to trap Sephiroth, only failing to complete his combo because of Angeal's interference. Sephiroth breaks free using his sword beam and brings the fight back to close quarters where he has the advantadge. But then Genesis powers up his sword more and manages to deadstop Sephiroth's next attack.

The upper-hand shifts back and forth, with each fighter taking thier turns having smiles, and then more seirous looks as the other either brings out another attack or simply moves to a distance that better suits them (Genesis having the advtantadge at range, and Sephiroth in close quarters)

Though in terms of raw power Sephiroth is certainly the superior fighter, since he is able to match Genesis' spell-slininging and sword power ups using just his natural skills and abilities.

Genesis seems to favor magic and specialise in materia use. It seems likely to me that he probably sank a lot of time into mastering that style of fighting to close the gap between him and Sephiroth, perhaps recognsing that he couldn't rely on swordsmanship and sheer physical strength. alone.

To some extent that seems to have worked. WHile Sephiroth is certainly proficient with materia he is never shown using it in the way Genesis does. Sephiroth instead seems to favor his swordsmanship over other forms of fighting.

So the two are fighters of equal calibre, but are very different. Sephiroth can rely on raw power to cut through his enemies while Genesis uses masterful use of magic in order to achieve the same effect. When the two clash head on their abilities are unable to allow either fighter to maintain the upper-hand for long, as Sephiroth can simply use more power to regain the upper-hand, while Genesis can apply more spells, or power up the ones already beign used in order to get ahead.

 

[Captain Jack Harkness]

if they should have a class, surely Genesis is a mystic knight (or a mix between red mage and warrior) instead Seph is a warrior L.99.
and Angeal is a monk-warrior mix.

 

[Wolfmania]

That's not entierly correct.

The quote is simply 'With combat abilities that rank equal to Sephiroth's'. That is vague, and could be referring more to, you know, their ranks as 1st Classes.

Their actual strenght is visible and that Sephiroth is stronger. So yeah, you people are wrong there. The upper-hand being disputed is more accurately placed in Sephiroth's fight with Cloud, where the creator's stated they had no upper-hand until Cloud was exhausted, Genesis was clearly close to Seph in the fight(as is Angeal close to them both, but closer to Genesis), but not as strong. For instance, he couldn't push Sephiroth back, even with magic. Only halt him a bit.

There are two quotes, at least(I know there are more) that put Sephiroth at a higher level.

'Zack was chosen as the main character as a representative of a BC era SOLDIER. Sephiroth is already the strongest in the world so there's no room for growth, and we couldn't possibly see ourselves making a game over type situation where he loses (Nomura)' - http://z1.invisionfree.com/Free_Nation/index.php?showtopic=1828&st=45

'A7-1: The ‘two taboos’ refers to Sephiroth and Genesis. In comparison to Sephiroth, the strongest and worst SOLDIER who tried to seize the life of the planet, Genesis was considered a unique SOLDIER who sealed himself away to protect the planet.' - http://thelifestream.net/final-fantasy-vii/340/crisis-core-ultimania-scenario-qa/

So, we have Sephiroth winning against Gen in a training room, and two quotes that say he's the strongest SOLDIER ever, while one vaguely suggest their abilites are of the same rank. Seems like a no-brainer to me. Don't forget as well that Zack, the guy who defeated Gen, was also defeated by Seph.

This is of course referring only to BC/CC Seph, FFVII and, especially AC/C is obviously legions above that, the only person in the world who could possibly challenge that last one being AC/C Cloud.


Also, I believe there is a quote from somewhere where the creator's said that if everyone in AC were lv. 99, Cloud and Sephiroth wuld've been over lv. 100. Just a fun fact.

 

[Unlucky]

I'm sure I've read a commentary from the creators where they said that no one in ACC is above Sephiroth in terms of strength, and that Cloud only manages to defeat him because he became overconfident and careless, or something along those lines

 

[Wolfmania]

I'm sure I've read a commentary from the creators where they said that no one in ACC is above Sephiroth in terms of strength, and that Cloud only manages to defeat him because he became overconfident and careless, or something along those lines

That is true. They have said:

'We could never make a character stronger than Sephiroth in FFVII.'

'There is nothing stronger, nothing above him.'

However, to be fair to Cloud and what he's done, he is nearly Sephiroth's equal(at least in everything except stamina), and has been called his rival on God know how many quotes.

I also must inform you that quote from the Reunion Files that alledgedly says Sephiroth was playing with Cloud is somewhat out of context.

You see, the exact quote was:

'Sephiroth never sweats, and never shows any signs of exertion. He swings his sword practically without making a sound. He probably grunts about three times(Wolf: I counted. It was four.) when swinging his sword in that intense battle.'

Then it continues to talk about Sephiroth's motives and his physical appeareance.

So you see, he dosen't shown any sign of exerting himself, but that dosen't mean he isn't. He's is more than likely holding most of it in to look, well, superior. It's the air he wants to keep.
,
We know how Sephiroth is, he wants Cloud to acknowledge that he is nothing towards his puppeteer, and the same page says that Sephiroth is deeply ashamed of Cloud overpowering him back then. Sephiroth holding back would be non-sensical, he'd never let himself be pushed through a building or pushed back by Cloud like he did in AC, he'd never let himself that shame unless he's got no choice on the matter.

Heck, same page also says that Sephiroth only ever shows any sign of frustraion when dealing with Cloud. He even lost his smirk, mid-battle. To say that sephiroth was actually like, playing with the dude, would be completely against his character. He only ever uses two-hands against Cloud, too. He never did against Genesis, and when he did it to Zack, Zack was knocked out instantly. This was when he was still a human. Before FFVII.

So yea. Cloud more than deserves his title as Sephiroth's rival.

That beign said, Sephiroth is indeed stronger than Cloud. The RF page describing the fight stated that there was no upper-hand in the fight until Cloud became exhausted. Sephiroth seems to be superior to Cloud in the stamina department, which is why he's stronger.

(Of course, If you need a source for any of this, I'll happily direct you to It)

 

[Lord Noctis]

That's not entierly correct.

The quote is simply 'With combat abilities that rank equal to Sephiroth's'. That is vague, and could be referring more to, you know, their ranks as 1st Classes.

Their actual strenght is visible and that Sephiroth is stronger. So yeah, you people are wrong there. The upper-hand being disputed is more accurately placed in Sephiroth's fight with Cloud, where the creator's stated they had no upper-hand until Cloud was exhausted, Genesis was clearly close to Seph in the fight(as is Angeal close to them both, but closer to Genesis), but not as strong. For instance, he couldn't push Sephiroth back, even with magic. Only halt him a bit.

There are two quotes, at least(I know there are more) that put Sephiroth at a higher level.

'Zack was chosen as the main character as a representative of a BC era SOLDIER. Sephiroth is already the strongest in the world so there's no room for growth, and we couldn't possibly see ourselves making a game over type situation where he loses (Nomura)' - http://z1.invisionfree.com/Free_Nation/index.php?showtopic=1828&st=45

'A7-1: The ‘two taboos’ refers to Sephiroth and Genesis. In comparison to Sephiroth, the strongest and worst SOLDIER who tried to seize the life of the planet, Genesis was considered a unique SOLDIER who sealed himself away to protect the planet.' - http://thelifestream.net/final-fantasy-vii/340/crisis-core-ultimania-scenario-qa/

So, we have Sephiroth winning against Gen in a training room, and two quotes that say he's the strongest SOLDIER ever, while one vaguely suggest their abilites are of the same rank. Seems like a no-brainer to me. Don't forget as well that Zack, the guy who defeated Gen, was also defeated by Seph.

This is of course referring only to BC/CC Seph, FFVII and, especially AC/C is obviously legions above that, the only person in the world who could possibly challenge that last one being AC/C Cloud.


Also, I believe there is a quote from somewhere where the creator's said that if everyone in AC were lv. 99, Cloud and Sephiroth wuld've been over lv. 100. Just a fun fact.

The quote is simply 'With combat abilities that rank equal to Sephiroth's'. That is vague, and could be referring more to, you know, their ranks as 1st Classes.

Then why would they bother mentioning it? It seems far more likely that they were trying to imply that, at least at one point, Gensis' was on or near Sephiroth's level.

So, we have Sephiroth winning against Gen in a training room, and two quotes that say he's the strongest SOLDIER ever, while one vaguely suggest their abilites are of the same rank. Seems like a no-brainer to me. Don't forget as well that Zack, the guy who defeated Gen, was also defeated by Seph.

This is of course referring only to BC/CC Seph, FFVII and, especially AC/C is obviously legions above that, the only person in the world who could possibly challenge that last one being AC/C Cloud.

Sephiroth didn't win that fight. It ended inconclusively when ANgeal interrupted. Further Genesis was interrupted at a previous point in a fight by Angeal, notably at a point when he was about to finish his attack on Sephiroth.

And using the Zack fight as proof is flawed in that it assumes Sephiroth's strength is unchanging over the course of his pre-nibel life.

Remember, after the canon fight Genesis had degredatio to contend with, which not only limited his growth, but straight up weakened him. By the time Zack foguth him at Modeoheim the degredation was getting quite bad, at least from a visible standpoit.

Genesis skill with magic did put him on a level with Sephiroth during the canon fight. Afterwards Sephiroth grew stronger, so by the time nibelheim rolls around hes at a higher level than Genesis was. So Zack could easily be on or around the level Genesis held t the canon fight, but still be somewhat weaker than Nibel Sephiroth.

Look, nobody is saying that Genesis was ALWAYS on a level with Sephiroth. Sephiroth clearly outgrew Genesis, even within CCs timeframe. Hell, I'm not even saying Genesis was of equal strength. Genesis could fight on par with Sephiroth by relying on his mastery of magic to bridge the power gap. This shows clearly in their fight. When the fight wa sup close, Sephiroth took the upper hand. When Genesis had more room to work with unti Angeal stopped him thus giving Sephiroth a moment to break free.

Even at the end of the fight when Sephiroth was getting serious Genesis was able to stop his charge dead in its tracks by powerng up his sword again.

The point is Genesis was on par with Sephiroth at that point even though Sephiroth outgrew him as time moved on.

EDIT:Forgot to mention this before but...

Besides, it's not as if Sephy came out the womb busting up planets

I would like thank MOG for providing the mental imagery of an infant Sephiroth bursting ou of Lucrecia and hurling Frieza style death balls at the planet.

 

[Captain Jack Harkness]

I would like thank MOG for providing the mental imagery of an infant Sephiroth bursting ou of Lucrecia and hurling Frieza style death balls at the planet.

o god, now i'm imaging a newborn Sephiroth searching for the black materia in the Nibelheim's lab xD and saying to hojo "on your knees, you incompetent walking mass of complex" XD

 

[Roger]

Again, Angeal did not just stop the fight for no ****ing reason. He knows Genesis. At a playful level, Sephiroth could play around with both Angeal and Genesis with one hand. Genesis may have had power at a level that rivals Sephiroth following his SOLDIER treatment, not skill. As Angeal says, he'd kill everyone before the fight was over if Angeal didn't interfene.

 

[Wolfmania]

1) When did I say Genesis wasn't near Sephiroth's level? He was somewhat, he was just weaker than Sephiroth, overall.

A fact supported by two author's quotes.

2) Your whole talk about degradation is moot because I was referring to when Zack defeated Genesis AVATAR, his strongest form yet, cured of degradation.

Same Zack who was outclassed by Seph.

The fact of the matter is Sephiroth is stronger than Genesis at each point of their lives, he was the strongest being in the world at the start of the BC, and was portrayed as such.

Genesis was never equal to the guy. Close, sure, but not his equal. He would lose to Sephiroth if they fought for real. Sephiroth didn't even use two-hands in his blade. When he did that to Zack, Zack was sent flying into oblivion. A single instance, and Zack was defeated.

The only other person is Cloud in AC/C. And against the behemoth known as transcended Sephiroth no less.

Heck, let's compare this using FFVII's dynamics for power.

FFVII has four factors that go into a high-tier characters strenght:

* Jenova Cells
* Mako(magic energy)
* Force of Will(the power of the personal souls. What normal people in FFVII use to acheive super-human status)
* Skill

Comparing both.

Jenova's cells:

Sephiroth wins in this category. He has Pure S-Cells, which were statedly superior to Genesis's G-strain.

Mako:

In the BC/CC era, i'll just assume they have the same level.

Force of Will:

Sephiroth. I don't think we need to discuss this one.

Skill:

Extremely ambiguous. So let's say equal.

Not to say Genesis dosen't rock those categories himself, but he has less than Seph overall. Genesis is, after all, what? The 4th-5th strongest character in VII?

 

[Lord Noctis]

1) When did I say Genesis wasn't near Sephiroth's level? He was somewhat, he was just weaker than Sephiroth, overall.

I would disagree in one way, but agree in another. as I have said before Sephiroth does indeed have more raw power, but at the time of the canon fight Genesis is on par with him anyway because of his use of magic. While Genesis isn't is strong he has much more aptitude with magic, a she has been shown using it in ways Sephiroth hasn't.

Basicly Sephiroth's power is greater, but their overall ability at that point is equal

2) Your whole talk about degradation is moot because I was referring to when Zack defeated Genesis AVATAR, his strongest form yet, cured of degradation.

Same Zack who was outclassed by Seph.

The fact of the matter is Sephiroth is stronger than Genesis at each point of their lives, he was the strongest being in the world at the start of the BC, and was portrayed as such.

Genesis was never equal to the guy. Close, sure, but not his equal. He would lose to Sephiroth if they fought for real. Sephiroth didn't even use two-hands in his blade. When he did that to Zack, Zack was sent flying into oblivion. A single instance, and Zack was defeated.

The only other person is Cloud in AC/C. And against the behemoth known as transcended Sephiroth no less.

Genesis AVATARs strength and Zack's nibel/post nibel strength is irrelevant to Genesis and Sephiroth's power and abilities relative to each other during the canon fight. There are literally years seperating these events. Years in which Sephiroth fought many battles and likely grew quite a bit stronger than he was pre-cc, which the point in time where I believe Genesis was equal to Sephiroth. Let me give something of a progression to illustrate my point.

Lets say Genesis and Sephiroth's overall abilities at the canon fight are 5.

Two years later at Nibelheim Sephiroth has gotten stronger. His abilities would now have a value of 8.

Zack's abilities at Nibelheim and onwards would be either a 6 or a 7 depending on how close you think he was to Sephiroth (Close, but not really close, in my opinion)

Meanwhile Genesis AVATAR sits at a power value of 6. Since he was weakened by degredaiton his abilities didn't grow like Sephiroth's did, but transforming into a giant monster still grants him higher power than before.

So Zack could be strong enough to defeat Genesis AVATAR, thus making him as strong as or stronger than Sephiroth was during the canon fight, but less powerful than Sephiroth is at nibelheim.

Regarding your point regarding CLoud's ACC fight with Sephiroth, that doesn't factor. By that point Sephiroth's power is entirely different from any point in the CC timeline, and nobody would debate that Cloud's abilities are quite a bit higher than would be expected of the SOLDIERs from that era, Genesis and Zack included. Well, some people would, but they'd be wrong.

Heck, let's compare this using FFVII's dynamics for power.

FFVII has four factors that go into a high-tier characters strenght:

* Jenova Cells
* Mako(magic energy)
* Force of Will(the power of the personal souls. What normal people in FFVII use to acheive super-human status)
* Skill

Comparing both.

Jenova's cells:

Sephiroth wins in this category. He has Pure S-Cells, which were statedly superior to Genesis's G-strain.

Mako:

In the BC/CC era, i'll just assume they have the same level.

Force of Will:

Sephiroth. I don't think we need to discuss this one.

Skill:

Extremely ambiguous. So let's say equal.

Now this is a fair assesment. But it might not be so simple.

Again, Genesis is equal to Sephiroth during the canon fight only, thats the only point in time I would argue he's equal.

And again, he's not equal due to power, but because he fights Sephiroth with a different fighting style to Sephiroth's own. In a sword fight Sephiroth's strength and reflexes would give him the edge over Genesis any day. Genesis knows that. But he fights using magic in combination with his swordsmanship. He uses that to bridge the gap in power between them in their fight.

Relying on just his sword we see Genesis unable to match Sephiroth, even getting blown bckwards by his blows. But when he powers up his sword again he stops Sephiroth's attack dead. WHile one could argue Sephiroth was only fighting one handed, so was Genesis.

And when Genesis was able to attack from a distance with fireballs he overloaded Sephiroth's defence and had the upper-hand until Angeal interbened.

And again, one more time I want to make myself clear. I am not rguing that Genesis had the same level of raw power as Sephiroth. Even back then he didn't. He's just on par due to his overall abilities and moveset. And again, that only really applies to the training fight, since Sephiroth continued to grow past that, while Genesis fell into decay.

 

[Wolfmania]

would disagree in one way, but agree in another. as I have said before Sephiroth does indeed have more raw power, but at the time of the canon fight Genesis is on par with him anyway because of his use of magic. While Genesis isn't is strong he has much more aptitude with magic, a she has been shown using it in ways Sephiroth hasn't.

Basicly Sephiroth's power is greater, but their overall ability at that point is equal

I think you're confused on a point here. The quote that the creator's said in which Sephiroth is the strongest in the world isn't related just to physical power.

It means that he is the overall strongest being in the world. Which simply means he'd beat Genesis on a fair fight. Becausew he is stronger, overall.

Genesis AVATARs strength and Zack's nibel/post nibel strength is irrelevant to Genesis and Sephiroth's power and abilities relative to each other during the canon fight. There are literally years seperating these events. Years in which Sephiroth fought many battles and likely grew quite a bit stronger than he was pre-cc, which the point in time where I believe Genesis was equal to Sephiroth. Let me give something of a progression to illustrate my point.

Lets say Genesis and Sephiroth's overall abilities at the canon fight are 5.

Two years later at Nibelheim Sephiroth has gotten stronger. His abilities would now have a value of 8.

Zack's abilities at Nibelheim and onwards would be either a 6 or a 7 depending on how close you think he was to Sephiroth (Close, but not really close, in my opinion)

Meanwhile Genesis AVATAR sits at a power value of 6. Since he was weakened by degredaiton his abilities didn't grow like Sephiroth's did, but transforming into a giant monster still grants him higher power than before.

So Zack could be strong enough to defeat Genesis AVATAR, thus making him as strong as or stronger than Sephiroth was during the canon fight, but less powerful than Sephiroth is at nibelheim.

Now, this seems to be a fair assessment, however the only problem is It's highly speculative on the increase between the years.

But I could buy that progression. The only problem is this:

* Sephiroth was not fully trying in the cannon battle, at least, that can be speculated due to:

A) They were in training, playing.

B) Sephiroth didn't use two-hands.

It's possible to speculate Genesis wasn't fully trying either, but then again, wouldn't you agree Sephiroth was winning that fight? When he seemed to up the anti Genesis was kinda thrown flying, when Genesis did that, he halted Sephiroth for a bit until Angeal stopped him from, I don't know, cindering the country.

* The quote that says Sephiroth was the strongest in the BC era all-around.

Regarding your point regarding CLoud's ACC fight with Sephiroth, that doesn't factor. By that point Sephiroth's power is entirely different from any point in the CC timeline, and nobody would debate that Cloud's abilities are quite a bit higher than would be expected of the SOLDIERs from that era, Genesis and Zack included. Well, some people would, but they'd be wrong

Well, the only point I was trying to make with that was this:

* Sephiroth vs Cloud over the Ruins of Midgar - Two-handing all around. Grunting, lost smirk.

* Seephiroth vs Zack in the Nibelheim Reactor - One instance of two-handing(which nearly killed Zack and beat him pretty badly), smirking at all times, no grunting.

* Sephiroth vs Genesis at the Sister Ray - No instance, to my knowledge. One grunt, smirk.

It is possible the dude wasn't using his full strenght.

Again, Genesis is equal to Sephiroth during the canon fight only, thats the only point in time I would argue he's equal.

While that seems fair, I'm not so sure that fight is a good illustration fo Sephiroth.

And again, he's not equal due to power, but because he fights Sephiroth with a different fighting style to Sephiroth's own. In a sword fight Sephiroth's strength and reflexes would give him the edge over Genesis any day. Genesis knows that. But he fights using magic in combination with his swordsmanship. He uses that to bridge the gap in power between them in their fight.

Relying on just his sword we see Genesis unable to match Sephiroth, even getting blown bckwards by his blows. But when he powers up his sword again he stops Sephiroth's attack dead. WHile one could argue Sephiroth was only fighting one handed, so was Genesis.

And when Genesis was able to attack from a distance with fireballs he overloaded Sephiroth's defence and had the upper-hand until Angeal interbened.

Once again, I think you're not taking the quote to full understanding. When the creator's say the 'strongest', they are taking all the factors into consideration, grinding them toguether, and pooping out the anwser to who woulod win in a fight. They aren't actully just measuring physical strenght.

That being said, I do believe Genesis was close to Sephiroth with his magic, but to say he was on equal with him seems disingenious given that Sephiroth was kinda winning that fight towards the end and not even using two-hands.

A clear indication of that was how Genesis could only really halt Seph with his magic while Seph's blows sent Genesis flying quite a bit.

And about Genesis not two-handing, isn't that kind of like, his syle? You know, like Kadaj, he never once two-handed his blade to my knowledge. Wouldn't he need the extra hand to cast magic?

And again, one more time I want to make myself clear. I am not rguing that Genesis had the same level of raw power as Sephiroth. Even back then he didn't. He's just on par due to his overall abilities and moveset. And again, that only really applies to the training fight, since Sephiroth continued to grow past that, while Genesis fell into decay.

I get what you're asying, and you know what? Seems pretty fair. Only a small quote and a couple of facts seem to hinder that a tad.

By the way, what's your opinion of Genesis on the overall scale? I'm just curious because you seem to have good opinions.

Personally I think he sits like, here:

ACC Seph > ACC Cloud > Kadaj >= FFVII Seph > FFVII Cloud > BC Seph > Zack > Genesis = Angeal > The rest.

 

[Unlucky]

* Sephiroth was not fully trying in the cannon battle, at least, that can be speculated due to:

A) They were in training, playing.

B) Sephiroth didn't use two-hands.

^ This. I just watched the Cannon fight, and imo Genesis was giving it his all because he was carried away by his emotions while Sephiroth was obviously only having a friendly fight (although he got serious later on, but we never get to see what happens because Angeal stopped the fight)

 

[Wolfmania]

Yea. The Ultimania says stuff about that too, like he's jealous of Sephiroth's fame and feels Sephiroth antagonizes him.

And It's not like your assessment is bad, Noctis, It's just that the quote says Sephiroth was always the strongest of the BC era.

By the way, do you guys know when the BC era officially ended? Was It when Zack died or when Sephiroth was killed for the first time?

 

[Roger]

I'd say with Sephiroth's first death. In respect to SOLDIER at least.

 

[Captain Jack Harkness]

ACC Seph > ACC Cloud > Kadaj >= FFVII Seph > FFVII Cloud > BC Seph > Zack > Genesis = Angeal > The rest.

are you talkining about swordman characters or all characters?