Hope, Snow, and Empathy

[Celes Chere]

I can't remember anymore, was Lightning even aware that it was Snow Hope wanted to kill?

Yes. She is the one who tells him that Snow didn't kill his Mom.

That's when Hope is like GUH I KNOW THAT BUT I NEED TO BLAME SOMEONE.

Unless my memory... is incorrect. xD

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Wow, Snow is just an awful character all around.

I'll admit gameplay wise I pimped the fuck out of him (best Sentinel in the game, and not a bad brawler either), but his role in the story is like, damn, man.

 

[Roger]

I like the boomerang and the coat better then Vanille's antler. And Hope's no Tidus he and Snow become BFF's pretty early, after that Hope is just a tad preachy.

 

[Sheva Alomar]

Hope and Snow are just pretty bad characters all around, tbh. More Snow than Hope, but still. While we're on the subject of weapons, it is funny to see Hope literally pull that boomerang out of his ass. At least we know that Vanille has her fishing/antler rod folded and hooked to some little device on her back. Heck, everyone EXCEPT Hope has a legitimate place for their weapon. Unless, of course, you feel it necessary to justify that Hope really does carry the boomerang in his ass. Which is the case for me, tbh.

 

[Roger]

Where exactly is Fang's spear during cutscenes?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

It sort of justifies Hope's character if you imagine him having to walk around with a boomerang up his ass all day.

Where exactly is Fang's spear during cutscenes?

She folds it up, if I'm remembering correctly.

 

[Sheva Alomar]

If Fang isn't holding her spear, yeah, it's folded and clipped to her back.

 

[Dana Scully]

I think Snow could have been a good character. I mean, it's a good concept; naive young man convinced he's a hero, gets someone(s) killed and finally realizes war is not a game, must own up to his guilt etc etc. The potential character development is fantasmic.

But jfc I'm replaying this game and I'm constantly facepalming at just about everything he says. There's naive and there's stupid, and Snow comes across as firmly planted in the latter group. And even by the time you reach Eden he's still prattling on about being THE HERO.

Thank god Lightning is there to make up for his fail with her unadulterated bitchiness. <3

While Hope annoys the shit out of me I can understand the motivation behind his actions, and at least he shows some growth throughout the game.

Edit:

http://na.square-enix.com/ffxiii-2/

Trailer already dubbed in English. Sorry if this was posted already :p

It almost sounds like it's gonna be set in some alternate universe.

Fuck that noise. :/

 

[Roger]

It almost sounds like it's gonna be set in some alternate universe

What'd I say.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

So true. ;-; T-though it's strange because I can't stand Tidus, but I have no problem with Hope. I think it's because Tidus isn't a child, but acts like one a lot of the time.

He is only three years older than Hope, so he's just 17. Really, he's a kid as well.

Plus, he grew up in a similar place, where people's needs were met without struggle and the overall maturity of the populace is low. Look at his mom as a great example of that (

Spoiler

chooses to let herself die from grief over Jecht's disappearance despite having a dependent child who still needs raising

).

But nothing Tidus ever did compared with this stupidity. And I don't care that he's 14, when he is self-aware enough to know he's wrong he shouldn't still be willing to kill the guy for it. Punch him in the face, kick him in the balls, better still, call him out and make him feel like shit. Don't freaking kill him you psycho.

He didn't say "I need to blame someone, so I'm going to blame and kill Snow," though. He irrationally blamed Snow and wanted to kill him, refused to listen when Lightning told him it wasn't Snow's fault, tried to kill Snow, was saved by him instead, and then acknowledged to himself and Snow that he was being irrational and dealing with his grief by blaming Snow.

It's important to look at the order in which those things happened, and when Hope was self-aware enough to know he was wrong.

Hope is irritating at first, but aside from the trauma of just losing a mother (and he was obviously really dependent on her) he's sort of manipulated by Lightning. He's still reeling from anger and grief and she literally hands him a knife and says focusing on a target is the best way to deal with grief. If that isn't the worst advice to give someone, idk what is. Of course he'd go along with it.

This is similar to Force's misreading of Hope in that the order of events is off, making a much different picture of how things actually went down. Lightning didn't say exactly those things either.

Lightning gives him the knife to defend himself, later finds out that he blames Snow for his mother's death and wants to kill him, then soon after tells Hope not to put himself in a compromising position by worrying about sympathy for the wounded/dying PSICOM soldiers who had come after them by "Focus[ing] on your ultimate goal and shut[ting] out everything else" (she was referring to survival, not killing Snow; she also didn't mention focusing on a target here), and then Hope immediately made an association between that focus and killing Snow, which Lightning then immediately responded to with, "Snow didn't kill your mother. The Sanctum did."

So, while she definitely influenced his thinking here, as minimosey said, to say she manipulated him isn't the right word for it.

Maybe because they couldn't stand any of the characters.

It doesn't matter how hard you try to justify a character's suffering. If I'm supposed to empathize and I don't, it's more likely the creator's failure than mine.

Could be your fault, could be theirs. I wouldn't say it's more likely to be one than the other. While not everybody can empathize with Hope seeing his mother murdered in front of him and the grief that tore him apart after, they should at least be able to sympathize.

And if someone can't do that, I think that one's almost certainly their fault.

 

[Roger]

I can understand if you don't sympathise, but this isn't like Tidus being stupid and Auron always being around to put him in his place, Lightning makes a halfhearted attempt to get him to direct his anger at the Sanctum and makes no further attempt after it clearly doesn't stick, Vanille has no alternative opinion, Sazh doesn't know about any of this, Snow fully agrees that it's his fault can't blame the kid for wanting to murder him for his involvement. This isn't just a 14 year old being stupid, the game wanted you to agree with him on that it was entirely Snow's fault at least.

But as much as I agrue against, I can't really say that it was adequately portrayed as though Snow's simpleminded "heroism" got everyone killed.

 

[Max Payne]

Could be your fault, could be theirs. I wouldn't say it's more likely to be one than the other. While not everybody can empathize with Hope seeing his mother murdered in front of him and the grief that tore him apart after, they should at least be able to sympathize.

And if someone can't do that, I think that one's almost certainly their fault.

So, it's the person in question's fault that the writing is too bad to make them sympathize with a shitty character?

It doesn't matter what happens in the story if the writing fails to make you care.

 

[Zee]

tbqh I think if Hope irritated you then he was executed just fine.

Most 14 years olds are generally annoying

 

[Celes Chere]

He is only three years older than Hope, so he's just 17. Really, he's a kid as well.

Plus, he grew up in a similar place, where people's needs were met without struggle and the overall maturity of the populace is low. Look at his mom as a great example of that ((SPOILER) chooses to let herself die from grief over Jecht's disappearance despite having a dependent child who still needs raising).

I wouldn't call him a child though (age wise). Hope is a kid, Tidus is a teenager. Though technically Hope is a teenager too, most people don't call a fourteen year old a teenager. In any case, 14 is closer to a kid than 17 is. And really, 17 is close to 18, I wouldn't really call that a 'kid'. But like I said, I wouldn't really give Tidus NO credit. I did say he had his moments, didn't I? During the end of the game I still sobbed like a little baby. It's not really that he does anything huge that's stupid. It's just the way he talks and acts - like a dumbass. If I were Yuna, I'd be completely turned off by an idiot flailing around, watching me through binoculars, and making dumb jokes. Though, the whistling thing is real cute. xD It's more his personality that I dislike, than his actions during the game. I don't think he's funny, cute, dorky... when I see his personality, I just think: "stupid".

 

[ForceStealer]

This isn't just a 14 year old being stupid, the game wanted you to agree with him on that it was entirely Snow's fault at least.

No it didn't, if that were the case it wouldn't have bothered to show us Snow not being comfortable with Nora fighting, nor would they show him being sad and angry when she died. If the game wanted us to agree with hope than the writing was far worse than everybody already says it was.

And Tres, I'm gonna have to look up the scene now, but I was pretty sure that Hope tells Lightning that he knows its irrational but has to blame him anyway. Perhaps you're right, but now I'll have to check.

And thanks for mentioning Tidus being 17, that's exactly what I wanted to say. Older than 14? Sure, but Methusalah he ain't. And Celes, by your logic "Tidus 17 is almost 18 so he's an adult and 14 is almost 12 so Hope's a kid," 15 and 16 are the ONLY years that you're a teenager?

And as for Lightning not being helpful, she was more useful than %$&#in' Vanille. She was REALLY worthless. And as I said before, I'm pretty sure Lightning wanted Hope to kill Snow anyway



And yes, Kuja is absolutely girlier than that dude. Though he appears to shop at the same store as the Sephiroth Remnants.

 

[Celes Chere]

What?! That headband is *totally* purple. Then again the contrast and brightness on my computer are set low atm, so maybe I'm seeing it wrong.

And Celes, by your logic "Tidus 17 is almost 18 so he's an adult and 14 is almost 12 so Hope's a kid," 15 and 16 are the ONLY years that you're a teenager?

Quiet, you.
I never said Tidus was an adult, I said I wouldn't consider that as a kid, a child; I also wouldn't consider him a little kid like Hope. (and not because he's short, but because 14 is BARELY a teen)
I already admitted he's technically a teen, most people tend to not think that way from my experience. I very well may be wrong. It's still the beginning stages of a teenager, he's still extremely young and such. Tidus is too but not as much. When you're 18 you're considered an adult after all, though really, 18/19 you're still a teenager.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

So, it's the person in question's fault that the writing is too bad to make them sympathize with a shitty character?

It doesn't matter what happens in the story if the writing fails to make you care.

Well, it's not the writer's job to instill sympathy. That's something you're supposed to bring to the table.

Being sympathetic toward and liking, being interested in or wanting to see how things play out for a character are all different. The latter three could be related to quality of writing, but I don't see how sympathy would be.

Hell, I used to find Aerith extremely annoying, but I always felt sympathy for her.

I wouldn't call him a child though (age wise). Hope is a kid, Tidus is a teenager.

Both are kids in the sense that they're not adults, though. For the most part, teenagers are children too. For the most part.

There are certainly exceptions to this (by the end of FFX, Tidus is even an exception to this), but as a general rule, it holds true. Life experience can certainly make up the difference in age, though this runs both ways.

Cloud Strife, for example, was really a kid in FFVII despite being chronologically 21.

Also, what Force said: If 14 means you're not a teenager and 17 means you're an adult, then why even bother having the teenager category at all?

Though technically Hope is a teenager too, most people don't call a fourteen year old a teenager.

Honestly, I've never heard anyone make a case for someone 13 or older not being a teenager. The "-teen" part of 13 through 19 is where we get the term. =P

When you're 18 you're considered an adult after all, though really, 18/19 you're still a teenager.

Yeah, you're considered an adult at 18, but that's a legal distinction.

It's more his personality that I dislike, than his actions during the game. I don't think he's funny, cute, dorky... when I see his personality, I just think: "stupid".

He is kind of slow, but I find it endearing. =)

And Tres, I'm gonna have to look up the scene now, but I was pretty sure that Hope tells Lightning that he knows its irrational but has to blame him anyway. Perhaps you're right, but now I'll have to check.

You're probably thinking of when he says that he knows killing Snow won't bring his mom back, but that Snow has to pay:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldtzJq1Pta4 (5:17)

 

[Max Payne]

Well, it's not the writer's job to instill sympathy.

Yes it is. It's most certainly the writer's job to make you give a shit about his characters and their plight.

 

[Tifabelle]

You're implying that, not me.

You're implying it. I'm inferring it based on how you said it. In any event, perhaps I've misjudged the level of your contempt?

People are so dumb they can't distinguish one title from another now?

Not everyone follows the series like we do. And even if they do, it has less to do with a viewer's intelligence, and more to do with SE's convoluted way of doing things. Unfortunately, they've set themselves up that this is the most logical way of naming the sequel.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yes it is. It's most certainly the writer's job to make you give a shit about his characters and their plight.

It's the writer's job to give you something to be sympathetic about. Yours to have the capacity. Hope's mom died. Do your job.

 

[ForceStealer]

(and not because he's short, but because 14 is BARELY a teen)

No it isn't, 13 is "barely a teen."

Either way, I don't have a problem with Tidus and I do with Hope, so its not like I'm just down on whiny characters for that fact alone. If he was just "emo" about his mom the rest of the game, fine. If he flipped out with bloodlust against some Sanctum trooper after they had killed it and had to be calmed down, fine. But to make the leap he made given that he saw everything, I can't follow him, and thus, don't empathize.In that sense, I'm with Dacon. To sympathize with Hope, he would have to have seen less of what happened between snow and his mother than we did. But the writers had him see everything, and still decide Snow killed her - which portrays Hope as an idiot.

And then there's his UNBELIEVABLY, UNSPEAKABLY bad timing to FINALLY bring it up. I mean we're less then a mile from your house, you can't wait 5 minutes? You've waited 15 hours (game time) for no reason.

Tidus never blamed anyone but his dad for his dad being a prick. And even Celes has now said that whining is not what she dislikes about Tidus, so myah.

 

[Max Payne]

It's the writer's job to give you something to be sympathetic about. Yours to have the capacity. Hope's mom died. Do your job.

So I should care just because his mom died, not because the character makes me care?

That's nonsensical.

 

[Roger]

No it didn't, if that were the case it wouldn't have bothered to show us Snow not being comfortable with Nora fighting, nor would they show him being sad and angry when she died. If the game wanted us to agree with hope than the writing was far worse than everybody already says it was.

Being sad about it doesn't mean it isn't his fault, obviously the game wants us to not want Snow to die, but it isn't going "And now back to the immature ****tard being murderous psychopath for utterly inadequate reasons" either.

You just said Snow, Vanille, Lightning should be going "YOU DON'T HAVE TO ****ING KILL HIM OVER IT YOU PSYCHO"

Nobody is even remotely like this about the affair

And He says he knows it won't bring her back a few times, he doesn't say it's irrational to blame him.

Also I said fruity not girly, this is definitely the most likely character to sit down and gossip about boyfriends, though his make-up probaly costs less then even a single one of the Emperor's eyelashes.

 

[Zee]

And as for Lightning not being helpful, she was more useful than %$&#in' Vanille. She was REALLY worthless

>easily destroy last boss with death spell while everyone else has their thumb up their ass
>destroy adamantoise on first try with death
>heal and doesn't die within five hits
>easiest limit break achievement get
>saved everyone's ass in the end

huh.

 

[Roger]

>easily destroy last boss with death spell while everyone else has their thumb up their ass
>destroy adamantoise on first try with death
>heal and doesn't die within five hits
>easiest limit break achievement get
>saved everyone's ass in the end

huh.

Doesn't Death have like a 20% successrate even when it's fully buffed with accessories?