Hope, Snow, and Empathy

[ForceStealer]

You just said Snow, Vanille, Lightning should be going "YOU DON'T HAVE TO ****ING KILL HIM OVER IT YOU PSYCHO"

No, I'm saying that. The rest of the cast shouldn't have to say it because it should happen in the first place because Hope's not making any damn sense.

 

[Zee]

idk about that miss rate, I upgraded the shit out of her Buff Staff and accessories and she hit constantly. During the last boss fight I kept casting Death on the boss until it was staggered.

also

But the writers had him see everything, and still decide Snow killed her - which portrays Hope as an idiot.

grief isn't rational :|

 

[ForceStealer]

>easily destroy last boss with death spell while everyone else has their thumb up their ass
>destroy adamantoise on first try with death
>heal and doesn't die within five hits
>easiest limit break achievement get
>saved everyone's ass in the end

huh.

What are you talking about?

I'm referring to Vanille being worthless in the "Stop Hope from being a dumbass" cause.

grief isn't rational :|

That doesn't mean I'm gonna empathize with ANYTHING just because "he's grieving." He saw everything, he has a perfectly good group of people to blame (PSICOM), and instead decides to blame the guy who has no blame whatsoever.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

So I should care just because his mom died, not because the character makes me care?

Well, yeah. You shouldn't have to know or even like him.

Maybe I'm weird. I've cried during sad newscasts/while reading sad stories in the paper.

 

[Zee]

I'm referring to Vanille being worthless in the "Stop Hope from being a dumbass" cause.

She spent most of the time with her bro Sazh trying to find her girlfriend and dealing with her own issues.

How was Hope's revenge her problem at all? She's not even reunited with the party til much later.

 

[ForceStealer]

How was Hope's revenge her problem at all?

I dunno, its not Lightning's problem either but she's getting flak for not giving him good advice.

 

[Dana Scully]

the guy who has no blame whatsoever.

Um, Snow did give Nora the gun. Not directly, but he/Gadot were the ones to gather up all the weapons and offer them to any takers. I can see Hope blaming him for getting Nora into the whole situation in the first place.

 

[Zee]

I dunno, its not Lightning's problem either but she's getting flak for not giving him good advice.

Um, yeah it is. She let him travel with her, he's her charge. She's the one taking him under her wing and spouting advice, poor or not. Also Snow is the guy her sister wants to marry.

So, yeah, this concerns her.

 

[ForceStealer]

Here we go again. She TOOK the gun, he didn't give it to her.

And Lightning is the only one who tells him that Snow didn't kill her. Hope doesn't listen to her, but she gave her advice, and it was the only good advice ANYONE gave him. Vanille just kept saying "Tell him." Now, that's not bad advice, because its better than freaking killing him, but she saw teh whole thing too, and she didn't tell him that he was wrong.

 

[Dana Scully]

Yes, I understand that. But if Snow never showed up then there never would have been a gun to take. Therefore, she would be nowhere near bigass explosion which ended up killing her.

 

[Roger]

No, I'm saying that. The rest of the cast shouldn't have to say it because it should happen in the first place because Hope's not making any damn sense.

If my friends wants to kill my other friend over a cookie, I'm not just gonna let it happen because it shouldn't have to happen in the first place. I'd still try to do something about rather then wash my hands off the affair because it doesn't make sense.

It is happening, and Lightning, Snow and Vanille are going, "well this an understandable reaction". The difference being is that he's the one going after this thing because it's his mom. Hope is being proportionally stupid to the rest of the cast. So I dunno why you are putting blame with the character rather then the sub-plot itself or hey, the writer.

 

[ForceStealer]

Yeah, and if Anima never showed up they wouldn't be in that situation at all. Or if HE hadn't wanted to go to Bodhum they wouldn't be there. Or if he hadn't slept in they might have left Bodhum sooner (I'm making that up), how far back do we want to extend indirect blame. AND, PSICOM would have just mowed them all down eventually anyway.

Lightning didn't say it was an understandable reaction, she (again, the ONLY ONE) told him that Snow didn't kill Nora, and that he'd be better off focusing his anger on staying alive and against Sanctum. Now, I'm rusty on my memory of the scene, what was her indication that it "didn't stick?"

 

[Zee]

anille just kept saying "Tell him." Now, that's not bad advice, because its better than freaking killing him, but she saw teh whole thing too, and she didn't tell him that he was wrong.

Vanille isn't with Hope when he decides to initiate "Operation NORA". She's not around him for most of the game when he's dealing with all that stuff.

And tell him he's wrong about what? He didn't say anything about killing Snow; she just knew he was grieving and upset.

And really it doesn't matter how much blame is actually on Snow. Hope took Lightning's words and focused his anger on a single target because it's far easier to exact revenge on one person than an entire army. Srsly, no one is saying Hope's line of thinking is "right" or "rational" only that there's a clear reason why he's going about the way he is.

Hope may be a dumbass kid, and I'm not about to force anyone to like him, but there's basis for his actions.

 

[ForceStealer]

It doesn't change the root of the problem for me. If Hope had any even partially legitimate reason to blame Snow I'd be fine. But I can't make that leap with him, so I fail to see any real basis. He WATCHED Snow be hesitant about Nora taking the gun. He WATCHED Snow's reaction to the explosion. He WATCHED Snow desperately hold onto her even after she went limp. If he had missed the latter two events, I would understand.

And later he even learns that Snow's "heroic" organization is NAMED FOR HIS MOTHER.

 

[Dana Scully]

Yeah, and if Anima never showed up they wouldn't be in that situation at all. Or if HE hadn't wanted to go to Bodhum they wouldn't be there. Or if he hadn't slept in they might have left Bodhum sooner (I'm making that up), how far back do we want to extend indirect blame. AND, PSICOM would have just mowed them all down eventually anyway.

And really it doesn't matter how much blame is actually on Snow. Hope took Lightning's words and focused his anger on a single target because it's far easier to exact revenge on one person than an entire army. Srsly, no one is saying Hope's line of thinking is "right" or "rational" only that there's a clear reason why he's going about the way he is.

Hope may be a dumbass kid, and I'm not about to force anyone to like him, but there's basis for his actions.

Exactly this.

 

[Zee]

He WATCHED Snow's reaction to the explosion. He WATCHED Snow desperately hold onto her even after she went limp. If he had missed the latter two events, I would understand.

tbh he was quite a distance away when the explosion happened, so I'd take that with a grain of salt.

And later he even learns that Snow's "heroic" organization is NAMED FOR HIS MOTHER.

No, it's not, it was a coincidence.

 

[Roger]

Yeah, and if Anima never showed up they wouldn't be in that situation at all. Or if HE hadn't wanted to go to Bodhum they wouldn't be there. Or if he hadn't slept in they might have left Bodhum sooner (I'm making that up), how far back do we want to extend indirect blame. AND, PSICOM would have just mowed them all down eventually anyway.

This story isn't the result of the character being allowed their free reign, the characters actions are dictated by what subplot they are part of at that exact time. That's why Hope goes "Friends, Fun, Making our own decisions, (Alexander time) OMG I DON'T WANNA SEE ANYONE GET HURT BECAUSE OF ME! *starts crying out of complete ****ing nowhere).

Lightning didn't say it was an understandable reaction, she (again, the ONLY ONE) told him that Snow didn't kill Nora, and that he'd be better off focusing his anger on staying alive and against Sanctum. Now, I'm rusty on my memory of the scene, what was her indication that it "didn't stick?"

OPERATION NORA would have been a good one

Vanille isn't with Hope when he decides to initiate "Operation NORA". She's not around him for most of the game when he's dealing with all that stuff.

And tell him he's wrong about what? He didn't say anything about killing Snow; she just knew he was grieving and upset.

And really it doesn't matter how much blame is actually on Snow. Hope took Lightning's words and focused his anger on a single target because it's far easier to exact revenge on one person than an entire army. Srsly, no one is saying Hope's line of thinking is "right" or "rational" only that there's a clear reason why he's going about the way he is.

Hope may be a dumbass kid, and I'm not about to force anyone to like him, but there's basis for his actions.

Also in defense of Vanille, she had no idea he blamed Snow as much as he did, in the Japanese version when they found his bike in Chapter 1 Hope was all concerned that Snow had gotten a hurt and stuff. They genuinely went there because Hope just wanted to talk to Snow. Then Snow was all "Your hero is on his way" and we know where we go from there.

 

[LunarSkye]

Huh?

NORA stand for No Obligations Rules or Authority. The name has jackall to do with Hope's mom.

 

[Zee]

Huh?

NORA stand for No Obligations Rules or Authority. The name has jackall to do with Hope's mom.

And in the translated novella, they say it came from the "nora cat", meaning strays, because they were orphans.

 

[ForceStealer]

Sorry, you're right there. For some reason I remembered Snow knowing Nora.

As for Vanille, she still could have told him that it wasn't Snow's fault instead of letting him go into the incredibly dangerous fal'cie. But really that's neither here nor there, I wasn't blaming Vanille I was defending Lightning.

tbh he was quite a distance away when the explosion happened, so I'd take that with a grain of salt.

I was never quite sure how he got that far away either, but he still saw everything. He had a reaction when she specifically fell, so he clearly had a bead on her (they didn't show his reaction when all the other people fell off the bridge). So he still saw Snow holding her after the explosion and he saw him holding her up (not to mention falling after her).

 

[Zee]

As for Vanille, she still could have told him that it wasn't Snow's fault instead of letting him go into the incredibly dangerous fal'cie.

The fal'cie was prolly safe as anywhere, though; they were in a war zone.

Just a side note.

 

[Roger]

When the scene itself happened Vanille and Hope didn't turn their heads until the explosion. Since yeah, his flashback is of Nora being looked at from Snow perspective I dunno how much he saw but if he saw her falling then I'd assume he'd catch Snow falling right after her at least, maybe he didn't catch his actions upon landing because he was busy being slapped by Vanille.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It doesn't change the root of the problem for me. If Hope had any even partially legitimate reason to blame Snow I'd be fine. But I can't make that leap with him, so I fail to see any real basis. He WATCHED Snow be hesitant about Nora taking the gun. He WATCHED Snow's reaction to the explosion. He WATCHED Snow desperately hold onto her even after she went limp. If he had missed the latter two events, I would understand.

I think where the disconnect in this convo is coming from is you're looking for a way to rationalize Hope's line of thinking at that time before you'll accept it when even he admits it was irrational. There's nothing logical about Hope's behavior there -- he was full of grief and thinking crazy.

 

[Max Payne]

Well, yeah. You shouldn't have to know or even like him.

Maybe I'm weird. I've cried during sad newscasts/while reading sad stories in the paper.

When it comes to fiction you need an emotional tether to the characters and events to make you care, because they're not real and you don't have any reason to care.

I wouldn't compare that to the fucked up shit we see on the news.

 

[Roger]

He WATCHED Snow's reaction to the explosion. He WATCHED Snow desperately hold onto her even after she went limp. If he had missed the latter two events, I would understand.

They were tiny dots, I'm shocked he realised that the group of people falling were his moms group at all, you have every reason to believe he didn't see either of those things. Vanille definitely didn't allow him to stick around long enough fo the latter at any rate.