Except HE DID identify his mother in all the people, he knew that it was her specifically falling when she fell, so it stands to reason he saw Snow holding her, and then holding her up, even if he couldn't see his facial and vocal reaction.
Ariadne said:
I think where the disconnect in this convo is coming from is you're looking for a way to rationalize Hope's line of thinking at that time before you'll accept it when even he admits it was irrational. There's nothing logical about Hope's behavior there -- he was full of grief and was thinking crazy.
Fine, but I'm not gonna empathize if I can't make the leap with him.
For instance, we love to hate on Cloud for being depressed about Zack and Aerith's deaths. Now, why is he depressed about these things? Because he blames himself. This blame is misplaced, there was literally nothing he could have done about Zack's death, he was a vegetable. And Aeith's death would have been VERY hard to do something about.
However, I can make that leap, I understand why he thinks he was inadequate in both of these situations. Hope I cannot make that leap with him. The "grief isn't rational" argument means that the writers could have made him do ANYTHING, but if there's an obvious disconnect, I'm not gonna follow it or empathize with him.
I agree to disagree or otherwise, endless circle. About a character - they should emotionally influence you too. If a character has say, their Mother die, you feel bad but without knowing anything about the character or seeing their personality or LIKING their personality, you're going to care less. I feel bad for Tidus, I really do. But it doesn't make me like his character. It's like you hear about a person from Highschool you didn't like, losing their parent. While you never got along, you still feel bad because of their loss. It won't make you become their friend, though. ;P (Maybe it will, but we're talking about characters not real people xD)
But yeah, I already said I understand why people don't like Hope, I just thought I might try defending him a bit, and I stand by what I said. >=D Your opinion is your own though, so... feel free to have it.
(Not that you need MY permission lawl)
Well I'm not gonna hold it against Cloud's character that Nomura wanted to give him an image more familiar to the fans, nor am I gonna hold it against Hope's character that Snow's blame in the matter being inadequately portrayed damaged the premise of his character's story.
I never liked Snow, doesn't mean he can never be good ever, as far Hope, Snow and Sazh are concerned XIII-2 cut down any hopes of them having any further development at all. That's not a good thing if you ask me.
But what I'm saying is a bit different from I don't like Hope. I don't like Yuffie, if I knew her in real life she would drive me crazy, but I wouldn't want her or her story removed from FF7, I just don't like the HER.
In Hope's case, I would prefer that his anger at Snow were not part of the story at all, because I think it hampers the story and that if they wanted to do it that way they should have made it less obvious that Snow was innocent. Or, like you said, that once Snow is having a break down Hope is still gonna kill him? Now you're a psycho. Yes yes, he's listening to what Lightning told him, well why the hell did he listen to that and not the "Snow didn't kill your mother" part?
And as I said before, I actually have no probably with Hope after that arc resolves, he jsut doesn't happen to do much of note after that point either so it kinda dominates my impression of him. When the game started, I couldn't stand him and I was fine with Vanille. As the game progressed they slowly, but completely switched places.
Well I'm not gonna hold it against Cloud's character that Nomura wanted to give him an image more familiar to the fans, nor am I gonna hold it against Hope's character that Snow's blame in the matter being inadequately portrayed damaged the premise of his character's story.
So what you're saying is that no matter what the writing does you'll like the character. So what's the point of debating? Damaged the premise of his story? It WAS the premise of his story (oversimplification of course, but you know what I mean).
Like I said before, I don't think the developers wanted you think "what the hell is this kid talking about? This wasn't Snow's fault." His story wasn't wrongfully accusing a guy, that's what it ended up being in the eyes of some people because Nora was all "moms are tough". And yeah, there's only one FF series character I actually dislike altogether.
When it comes to fiction you need an emotional tether to the characters and events to make you care, because they're not real and you don't have any reason to care.
They look, sound and act like humans, and my disbelief is easily suspended, so if something sad happens to them, my sympathy does too. That's just how I watch/read stuff, though.
No, no, no, no, no. I will agree with I'm Batman there:
I'm Batman said:
When it comes to fiction you need an emotional tether to the characters and events to make you care, because they're not real and you don't have any reason to care.
I wouldn't compare that to the fucked up shit we see on the news.
A writer must not rely on poor tropes to make people sympathize with a character, especially in fictions such as FF. Why is that? Because in those kind of fictions, [nearly] all the characters have fucked up stories. So having someone close killed is not the point that will make you care and tear up.
If we take Cloud or Tifa, for example; during FFVII, you learn that respectively their mother and dad have been killed by Sephiroth. However, this impacted the story, because you weren't forced to deal with it to enjoy their characters. It's part of their reason to go after Sephiroth, however they don't whine about it. It's part of their character, but it's not annoying like it is with Hope. And they were barely older than him when it happened.
As a writer, I think, if you want people to care about your characters, then your characters HAVE to be written in a way that will make people care, not annoyed. It's not that we don't understand Hope's suffering; it's simply that it's badly executed. It's like: "there, deal with it and hear him whine about it for the rest of the game hahahaha". What is Hope like? We barely know [I didn't finish the game yet, so I'm giving you my impressions about him]. That's one point that I dislike about FFXIII, it's that character-wise, it's hard to like them. They are mostly annoying to super annoying, and what saves them is the gameplay because even though I absolutely hate Vanille for example, I enjoy playing with her a lot, 'cause she's really good in fights [where Aerith could never succeed in that area and I dismissed her early].
I think you can't blame the fans for predominantly disliking Hope or Snow, for example. It's simply that the way they are written, their stories isn't going to touch us. It's not interesting to listen to them, they go in circle and have the same lines over and over "I will kill him!" "Serah, Serah!" A good writer will make it so that people will predominantly care for their characters - it's possible with the same background. But the way it's handled - no, no, that's just lazy writing.
Seriously Somehow, I really wish FFXIII will be in an alternate universe if it means we won't have to deal with the characters from the first game, Lightning aside Hell, I would buy that XD
By the way, thanks for this everybody. The prevailing amount of FFXIII discussion on TLS is slamming it, or at best talking about difficult Hunts. It was nice to actually get to talk about some of the plot for a change.
By the way, thanks for this everybody. The prevailing amount of FFXIII discussion on TLS is slamming it, or at best talking about difficult Hunts or lesbians. It was nice to actually get to talk about some of the plot for a change.
I pretty much agree with Eerie... Loss is such a common theme in fiction that it gets desensitizing for most people. Look how many characters are orphans or whatever. Most people aren't going to feel sympathetic unless they've already gotten attached to the character somehow.
He is only three years older than Hope, so he's just 17. Really, he's a kid as well.
Plus, he grew up in a similar place, where people's needs were met without struggle and the overall maturity of the populace is low. Look at his mom as a great example of that (
chooses to let herself die from grief over Jecht's disappearance despite having a dependent child who still needs raising
You know, I vaguely remember them talking about how she died, but I always thought it was sort of wasting away? Like, I never thought it was supposed to be intentional or willing on her part, just that she got really depressed and couldn't get herself back out of that, her health suffered as a result and whoops, down one mom.
I don't know, it just seemed like a common trope in older stories, someone wasting away from grief, that I thought it was a kind of lazy way to write her off but not supposed to be in any way "she could have prevented it if she'd just gotten help". Though it's been a looong time since I've played X, so.
Now knowing that everyone in Zanarkand is a dream, I kind of have to wonder if the Fayth just get bored of dreaming about depressed people and "write them out" of the dream.
Square hasn't used grief because of parental loss as a plot that much though. It was barely a bump in the road for Tifa, Cloud and Terra, the FFVIII never cared or remembered that they were orphans, ditto Zidane, Yuna and Tidus, Edgar and Sabin's parents needed to go just to get them where they are. They cared but it wasn't the plot itself. They haven't done this really since FFIV.
Now there they did it properly, Cecil all but killed Rydia's mom with his bare hands, but you still empathised with his plight and could stand Rydia for blaming him.
Now there they did it properly, Cecil all but killed Rydia's mom with his bare hands, but you still empathised with his plight and could stand Rydia for blaming him.
No, no, no, no, no. I will agree with I'm Batman there:
...
This, TONS AND TONS.
A writer must not rely on poor tropes to make people sympathize with a character, especially in fictions such as FF. Why is that? Because in those kind of fictions, [nearly] all the characters have fucked up stories. So having someone close killed is not the point that will make you care and tear up.
I'm not saying it's what's going to make the character endearing to you or make you tear up (with Hope, it was the scene where he defended Snow in Palumpolum that made me tear up), but it is necessary to understanding what gets the character to the places where we do become endeared to them and/or tear up.
I'll use your next example as an example.
Eerie said:
If we take Cloud or Tifa, for example; during FFVII, you learn that respectively their mother and dad have been killed by Sephiroth. However, this impacted the story, because you weren't forced to deal with it to enjoy their characters. It's part of their reason to go after Sephiroth, however they don't whine about it. It's part of their character, but it's not annoying like it is with Hope. And they were barely older than him when it happened.
Now, first, it bears pointing out that Cloud and Tifa had lost their parents years earlier, whereas Hope had only just lost his. Secondly, Cloud and Tifa's immediate reactions to those losses were very much like Hope's.
Did Tifa have a decent chance to beat Seph? No. Did it make sense that she suddenly said she hated all SOLDIERs and Shin-Ra? Not really. Not very different from Hope's reaction; Tifa just got knocked out a lot sooner.
Third, Tifa and Cloud's behavior -- and we'll throw Barret in there too -- as of the beginning of FFVII is much like if Hope had stayed in his "Operation Nora" phase for several years. They're all willing to endanger -- and attempt to rationalize doing so -- civilians to get back at Shin-Ra because of the losses they suffered.
They were not being any more rational about all this than Hope was in the immediate aftermath of his mother being killed, yet we excuse their behavior all the time with lines like, "Given what they went through, it's not hard to understand why they did what they did, etc."
Also, for the sake of clarification, I mentioned newscasts as an example of something that can quickly elicit sympathy from me because of how short they are versus the length of something like FFXIII's story. All you get in a newscast is the fact that something bad has happened to someone -- you don't get the person's story, you don't get intimate with them, but, knowing what's just happened, you'd approach a conversation with them gently if you weren't an asshole.
Seems like if you're looking at a fictional character's story and you get a similar set-up concerning them, you'd approach the follow-up to that with the understanding that their thought processes may be in some way influenced by that -- perhaps with the writer even deliberately painting their behavior in an illogical manner. You're not going to take this approach because you're equating a fictional character's loss with that of a real person, but if you're going to talk about what feels believable and enthralling in fiction, seems like you'd be willing to entertain irrational thoughts and behavior as a believable response to vicious, intractable personal horror.
Eerie said:
I think you can't blame the fans for predominantly disliking Hope or Snow, for example. It's simply that the way they are written, their stories isn't going to touch us. It's not interesting to listen to them, they go in circle and have the same lines over and over "I will kill him!" "Serah, Serah!" A good writer will make it so that people will predominantly care for their characters - it's possible with the same background. But the way it's handled - no, no, that's just lazy writing.
By the way, thanks for this everybody. The prevailing amount of FFXIII discussion on TLS is slamming it, or at best talking about difficult Hunts. It was nice to actually get to talk about some of the plot for a change.
You know, I vaguely remember them talking about how she died, but I always thought it was sort of wasting away? Like, I never thought it was supposed to be intentional or willing on her part, just that she got really depressed and couldn't get herself back out of that, her health suffered as a result and whoops, down one mom.
I don't know, it just seemed like a common trope in older stories, someone wasting away from grief, that I thought it was a kind of lazy way to write her off but not supposed to be in any way "she could have prevented it if she'd just gotten help". Though it's been a looong time since I've played X, so.
Now knowing that everyone in Zanarkand is a dream, I kind of have to wonder if the Fayth just get bored of dreaming about depressed people and "write them out" of the dream.
It's mentioned in the game that she must have accepted death while she was alive since she's on the Farplane despite not getting a sending. As for the fayth, they weren't that active in the day-to-day affairs of the people in Dream Zanarkand.
Third, Tifa and Cloud's behavior -- and we'll throw Barret in there too -- as of the beginning of FFVII is much like if Hope had stayed in his "Operation Nora" phase for several years. They're all willing to endanger -- and attempt to rationalize doing so -- civilians to get back at Shin-Ra because of the losses they suffered.
Except that Shinra DID cause their suffering. If Hope had been willing to kill Snow in order to hurt PSICOM in some way, than this would be comparable. But no, he wants to kill Snow specifically. It's not the same. And Tifa went specifically after the man who killed her father - Sephiroth. The irrational part was thinking she could kill him (well, actually, the irrational part was warning him of her approach). She didn't turn to go find Zack just 'cause he was a SOLDIER and might be easier to kill. She didn't start trying to tear apart the reactor, she went straight to cause - despite the difficulty in taking it out. Whereas we've determined that Hope went for Snow rather than PSICOM simply because Snow was easier to take out.
Except that Shinra DID cause their suffering. If Hope had been willing to kill Snow in order to hurt PSICOM in some way, than this would be comparable. But no, he wants to kill Snow specifically. It's not the same.
It's plenty the same. In Tifa's case especially, since Sephiroth -- the person who killed her loved one -- was already dead. The people in the mako reactors were hardly responsible for Nibelheim.
Force said:
She didn't start trying to tear apart the reactor ...
I thought we determined that he went for Snow because he had a grief-induced bout of temporary insanity. And, for that matter, those wounded PSICOM people he wanted to save in the Gapra Whitewood were much easier targets.
There were plenty of PSICOM targets for him to go after, man (as early as Lake Bresha), and many were much easier targets than Snow.
She didn't turn to go find Zack just 'cause he was a SOLDIER and might be easier to kill. She didn't start trying to tear apart the reactor, she went straight to cause - despite the difficulty in taking it out. Whereas we've determined that Hope went for Snow rather than PSICOM simply because Snow was easier to take out.
Nah, she just went and became a terrorist and helped blow up innocent civilians.
Also, imo, Hope didn't just go after Snow because it was easier to kill him, but also because it's easier to focus ones blame/hate on one specific person than some giant, faceless military organization.
First of all, Tres you started with the distinction that a lot of time had passed since FF7's characters' loss rather than in Hope's case, so I was sticking to the moment she found her father dead. But now we're including blowing up reactors later, okay.
The people in the mako reactors were hardly responsible for Nibelheim.
That's not the same the guys. They weren't blowing up the reactors TO kill the people inside. They blew the reactors to harm Shinra, and considered the casualties a necessary evil. It would be the same if the express purpose was to kill the people in the reactors.
Furthermore, the civilian casualties on the Reactor 1 explosion was a miscalculation on Jessie's part. They intended to blow the reactor - and just the reactor - at night to minimize innocent deaths.
Its still not rational, sure, but it still makes more sense is and is easier for me to go with them.
Also, imo, Hope didn't just go after Snow because it was easier to kill him, but also because it's easier to focus ones blame/hate on one specific person than some giant, faceless military organization.
Despite the fact that that one specific person was far less to blame than the giant faceless organization. AND, the giant faceless organization is exactly who Barret and Tifa targeted!
I don't think Hope blames PSICOM nearly as much, didn't everyone in Palumpolom enthustiastly approve of their own Purge? They've been raised to agree with PSICOM, Hope knows where they are coming from, hell his initial outrage was about Snow going to help a l'Cie just after leaving the people he cut loose in the middle of enemy territory behind.
Snow on the other hand, especially with Lightning being the one painting a picture of what he's about , no reason to respect his involvement.
About a character - they should emotionally influence you too. If a character has say, their Mother die, you feel bad but without knowing anything about the character or seeing their personality or LIKING their personality, you're going to care less. I feel bad for Tidus, I really do. But it doesn't make me like his character. 
It's like you hear about a person from Highschool you didn't like, losing their parent. While you never got along, you still feel bad because of their loss. It won't make you become their friend, though. ;P (Maybe it will, but we're talking about characters not real people xD)
Somehow, I really wish FFXIII will be in an alternate universe if it means we won't have to deal with the characters from the first game, Lightning aside 
