Improve Crisis Core Thread

[The Twilight Mexican]

I don't think only three survived, only because it's really fucking stupid military doctrine to fight from a battalion down to the last man without anyone making a tactical retreat, (if nothing else, the helicopters probably flew away) and Shinra doesn't seem like the type of commanding environment where retreat is heavily stigmatized.

I don't really like the line of thought that 'Zack like, whittled down the entire Shinra Army, bro'. The game's narrative indicates that a battalion level force engaged Zack that day, and in an overall military force, a battalion is an extremely small amount of an army's total manpower. Don't get me wrong, it's an inhuman amount of force vs. one guy, but certainly not an entire army.

I'm not saying it was their entire army. I just said, "Out of all those guys who went up against him, only three survived." And unless they were in the helicopters, somebody apparently called in reinforcements during the course of the battle, because you see gear belonging to dead SOLDIERs littering the ground too while no SOLDIERs were in sight at the start.

The only people we know to have survived are the three guys on the ground who finished him off and whoever was piloting that (one) helicopter that flew away, while more specialized troops died fighting him than we know to have been present at the outset.

So, I return to my point: Fighting him in an open space is a terrible idea.

Let's not get carried away here. I don't like that the SOLDIER uniforms changed either, but Crisis Core was not dull, dark or gritty. Weren't we just complaining on the other page that the slums were too bright and chipper?

The atmosphere (i.e. music, manner of the people, overall look and feel) of Crisis Core's slums is too bright and chipper, but that's not the same as the color palette. The slums of the original game were full of color on top of being a literal trash heap of resentment and misery.

It also wasn't helped by being able to see the light of the outside world in the slums when supposedly nobody can see the sky from beneath the "rotting pizza." And it really wasn't helped by the camera lingering on said light during some of the cutscenes.

 

[ForceStealer]

Well, like I said, the detailed, vibrant colors were a product of prerendered backgrounds that a PS3 could duplicate in real time, but not a psp. I'm just saying this probably a hardware limitation rather than a design decision. Even Advent Children had lots ofvaried and metallic hues in the junk piles while crisis core had to make due with nondescript piles.

Agreed about seeing the sky, but as you say, that has nothing to do with palette

 

[Roger]

I'm not saying it was their entire army. I just said, "Out of all those guys who went up against him, only three survived." And unless they were in the helicopters, somebody apparently called in reinforcements during the course of the battle, because you see gear belonging to dead SOLDIERs littering the ground too while no SOLDIERs were in sight at the start.

The only people we know to have survived are the three guys on the ground who finished him off and whoever was piloting that (one) helicopter that flew away, while more specialized troops died fighting him than we know to have been present at the outset.

So, I return to my point: Fighting him in an open space is a terrible idea.

we see SOLDIER swords littering the ground, we see Shinra infantrymen wielding those SOLDIER sword in the pre-battle FMV. And defending yourself hold up inside house is always easier then in the open field. I mean, they weren't able to bring artillery and sniperrifles in quickly enough but Zack hardly knew that. The second floor of the Shinra building probably commands the best view over who is approaching as well.

The atmosphere (i.e. music, manner of the people, overall look and feel) of Crisis Core's slums is too bright and chipper, but that's not the same as the color palette. The slums of the original game were full of color on top of being a literal trash heap of resentment and misery.

It also wasn't helped by being able to see the light of the outside world in the slums when supposedly nobody can see the sky from beneath the "rotting pizza." And it really wasn't helped by the camera lingering on said light during some of the cutscenes.

Too true. Take the exterior of Aeriths church for example. In FFVII it was cartoonish, bright, guady and cheap looking. In CC it's just a fixer-upper really. Wouldn't look too bad above the plate after a really good clean up.

 

[Knuxson]

I am sorry to necro this thread, but I played through Crisis Core again not too long ago and there were certain things that really bugged me about the game. Many of them have already been said here such as no focus on Gast (and instead on Hollander), the Wutai War, other SOLDIERS being pre-Sephiroths, Genesis and Angeal's ambiguous motives, Aerith's personality, the slums being too happy, etc.

I also don't like that the Turks in the compilation are very much portrayed as good people, when in the OG they were, if not bad, morally ambivalent. I think the compilation kind of retconned them due to their popularity. But in general the compilation kind of lightened a lot of the dark aspects of FF7 (the slums again).

I was also pretty disappointed with the Nibelheim incident portrayed in CC. I mean, in the OG Tifa's father is there when they take the picture before venturing up Mt. Nibel. The same picture scene is in CC, but Tifa's father in inexplicably absent. I get not showing Cloud's mom, because the OG doesn't imply that Zack ever meets her, but I think Tifa's father should have been there and we should have seen her reaction when he died. I also think that Tifa should have looked more messed up when Sephiroth slashed her. I always contributed the lack of visible physical wounds when Tifa is slashed in the OG to technological limitations. In CC it just looks lazy and it makes it harder to worry about her condition at the time. Also, I hated Genesis showing up inside the Nibelheim reactor.

My other big complaint is Zack's death, though this is probably less major as story-wise it was pretty accurate. I loved most of the scene including how the gameplay mechanics started to break down and Cloud screaming at the sky, which it shows him do in the OG too. What I didn't like was the song and Zack ascending into the sky and all that crap. Maybe it is a cultural Japanese thing (though of course the original game is Japanese, so I am not sure why they felt the need to lighten the tone now /shrug), but I would have preferred they did it more like the OG. No music, Zack gives his last breath, Cloud screams, then starts slowly walking towards Midgar dragging the sword, with Zack slowly fading into the distance.

When I first watched this scene, I kind of liked it because I was happy that Zack after death was sort of at peace. But I think I would have preferred if it was more gut-wrenching. That this great hero and good person was simply gone forever, with the knowledge of what lay before Cloud hanging over the scene as he slowly walked towards the beginning of FF7. They accomplished that to an extent with showing the opening of FF7 with Cloud on top of the train (I loved that scene), but I think it could have been even more powerful. Although, for me, Zack's death in CC was the most emotional part of the game. There are definitely a lot more glaring issues with the game that should have been addressed (and are covered in the thread). They at least were mostly successful with the ending of the game.

I agree with others that CC should have been on console and therefore could have really fleshed out the world of FF7. If any game was going to really add weight to the events of FF7, it was CC. Sorry for the long post, by the way.

 

[Torrie]

I've been feeling a bit down lately and binge-fighting my way through CC missions as a result. I can't add anything revolutionarily new as my biggest criticism is directed at the missions. All the excitement about doing so many quests in so many locations expired very quickly. The mission scenario writer must have been either overloaded with other tasks, or braindead, or severely underpaid, because the amount of lore put into the missions is atrociously poor.

Spoiler: Random thoughts and rant about missions

- Okay, there's something good to it, like the Security Department challenge at the beginning of the game demonstrating the relationship between different Shinra units.
- The item research program may be a successful basis for missions in terms of the game mechanics.
- Missions related to testing weapons or eliminating robots/monsters/Genesis copies/Wutai remnants are actually worth being part of the game, because they are at least connected with the in-game events, but there are way! too! many of them!!! aaarrrrgghh
- The Counter-Mafia Project mission is notable for the mere fact that it's kind of referenced in the Remake now, Don keeping treasures here and there in the slums.
- Orphans Escaping gives a tiny bit of lore to connect the dots. Shinra rules the orphanage with an iron fist, and the game kind of hints that maaaaaaybe it's the orphanage where Cissnei grew up. But the game would be much much better if Zack had to go and pick the kids up from the wasteland or any other terrain himself.
- The accessory craftsman quest was super annoying. I was so sure I would be fighting him or indeed recruiting him for Shinra but there's even no closure to the sub-plot, no post-mission narration, he just keeps vanishing and leaving his accessories behind. If it was supposed to be an unsuccessful mission for Zack, like he failed to recruit him or lost track of him, again, it didn't feel unsuccessful, just blank.
- This nearly made me flip a table:

Genesis troops are no more.
Wutai forces have vanished.
There is nothing left to do but keep moving
deeper into the depths of the caves.

Like, seriously?! What a great way to justify utilizing this map over and over again. *sarcasm*
- Fun in the Sun episodes lack the variety of field animation.
- The most notable missions would be the Yuffie sub-plot, training a 3-C SOLDIER, and The Crescent Unit, because guess why? You've actually got to talk to people.
- The best location? 3-2-2, because the ship.

I agree with X that as soon as Costly Punch becomes available, fighting becomes pointless. When missions are tough, you have to think carefully which armor or materia to pick agains specific enemies, but then... just spam, spam, spam. Also, by the end of the list the imbalance in the game difficulty becomes quite significant.

Well, how else can CC be improved? More SOLDIERs. And Kunsel face reveal.

 

[Odysseus]

I still can't get over the fact they had that who boat map ready to go and only used it on one. single. fucking. mission. Like yeah, let's walk through the same desert a million times, or through this same identical cave map. Maybe mix things up and go to the chocobo farm! But they have this really detailed boat map, which has environmental decorations and everything, and they use it ONCE. What the fuck? I don't think that map was even made for the missions, I think it was a repurposed map from a cut part of the game.
...
was it used in multiple missions? I can't remember now. It wasn't common anyway.

 

[Chocobo Eater]

Gameplay-wise, the missed opportunity to show more of Midgar hurts the most imo. Would have loved to explore Shinra HQ as well.

 

[Torrie]

I don't think that map was even made for the missions, I think it was a repurposed map from a cut part of the game.

Whoa, it never crossed my mind before, but I'm inclined to believe it's true. Exactly what you said, one single mission and no other references whatsoever. Hell, I even enjoyed the Banora underground prison part which I had totally skipped on my very first playthrough. I can easily imagine that layout being reused for missions, but alas. The chocobo farm was a breath of fresh air (both visually and figuratively), but it was only used in, like, very few missions, I can probably count on one hand.

They should have scrapped Genesis as a brand new character at the initial stages of planning and used the resources that he eventually took up, to deepen the interactions between the main characters and build new maps.

 

[Odysseus]

I could go on and on about my issues with Crisis Core's story all day, and I've done so elsewhere on the forum. Gameplay wise I think it's fine, but it gets pretty repetitive after a while, especially if you suffer through the missions. I also just think the game really suffers from being on the PSP; Tiny maps with sparse details, everything is a little too wide open for how little is actually there, the overall look of the game is pretty bland... I really wish it had been a PS3 game.

They should have scrapped Genesis as a brand new character at the initial stages of planning and used the resources that he eventually took up, to deepen the interactions between the main characters and build new maps.

I wonder if the story might have worked better if Genesis and Angeal were one character? I at the very least think we desperately need more scenes of Angeal and Zack being friends before his defection, and less scenes of Genesis being insufferable.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The amount of memory freed up would not have given them the data to make brand new maps for all the missions.

The fact is, the PSP UMD disk is a horrible storage medium. There's an extremely limited amount of data space that requires the game developers to cleverly reuse assets and recycle locations. There's no way a PSP game would ever match the level of detail and depth a console game release would have, with the number of different locations in CC. The missions were always meant to be "pick up and go" with the brevity being the point. UMD died for a reason.

I wonder if the story might have worked better if Genesis and Angeal were one character?

How would that even work? They're two separate and completely opposite people with opposite motivations.

I at the very least think we desperately need more scenes of Angeal and Zack being friends before his defection

Well that's what the DMW event scenes are for. The game's linear as is and that extra footage is hidden sans voice acting via the numerous recollection events you get the more Zack limit breaks. Another creative way they tried to add more while compressing data and sticking with the linear direction of the plot.

 

[Shademp]

I still can't get over the fact they had that who boat map ready to go and only used it on one. ... I don't think that map was even made for the missions, I think it was a repurposed map from a cut part of the game.

The boat was used in Cissnei DMW Scene #4, though since these scenes are essentially videos you never technically teleport to the actual location/zone outside of the one mission.

In this post I show in how many missions each map was used. Caves and mines are clearly overrepresented. EDITED TO ADD: Although Hallway Variation B takes up 37 missions, it doesn't feel so bad for the player because most of these are restricted to the largest square room and contains only the one fight per mission in those cases.

The fact that so much storage is wasted on unused maps that were never utilized for the final game's missions just adds to the rage. In particular the unused reactor maps!

 

[Odysseus]

They really, reeeeaaaaally like that cave.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The amount of memory freed up would not have given them the data to make brand new maps for all the missions.

The fact is, the PSP UMD disk is a horrible storage medium. There's an extremely limited amount of data space that requires the game developers to cleverly reuse assets and recycle locations. There's no way a PSP game would ever match the level of detail and depth a console game release would have, with the number of different locations in CC. The missions were always meant to be "pick up and go" with the brevity being the point. UMD died for a reason.

Just because my 2010 Nissan Versa hatchback can't fit a sofa for transport is little excuse for not being able to transport a chair because I've filled the damn thing with discarded aluminum cans and fast food bags.

What is there is still totally on the development team.

How would that even work? They're two separate and completely opposite people with opposite motivations.

By them not being separate people. And with some of the more nonsensical motivations being cut out in favor of a tragic, sympathetic fall rather than the petulant behavior that was there instead.

 

[Makoeyes987]

If Genesis isn't petulant then he's not Genesis

I dunno why all that unused data is left on the game, that's naturally weird but it's probably reflective of game dev for consoles, where unused data is left behind all the time because it's more expensive to try and delete it. The UMD leaving less room for things in general makes that type of data waste far more problematic but they always came at this game like it was a portable project.

The fact remains it should have been a console release but this was when S-E was fixated on portables. Why? Who fucking knows, Yoichi Wada maybe?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I dunno why all that unused data is left on the game, that's naturally weird but it's probably reflective of game dev for consoles, where unused data is left behind all the time because it's more expensive to try and delete it. The UMD leaving less room for things in general makes that type of data waste far more problematic but they always came at this game like it was a portable project.

My drinking cans and fsst food refuse metaphor was meant to be applied to the released version of the game.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's cold, bro. That's cold.

 

[Torrie]

The boat was used in Cissnei DMW Scene #4, though since these scenes are essentially videos you never technically teleport to the actual location/zone outside of the one mission.

In this post I show in how many missions each map was used. Caves and mines are clearly overrepresented. EDITED TO ADD: Although Hallway Variation B takes up 37 missions, it doesn't feel so bad for the player because most of these are restricted to the largest square room and contains only the one fight per mission in those cases.

The fact that so much storage is wasted on unused maps that were never utilized for the final game's missions just adds to the rage. In particular the unused reactor maps!

Shademp comes to the rescue with his research data. Thank you!
Now that I've done so much in this game, I should really look into your findings.

They really, reeeeaaaaally like that cave.

Gosh, I hate the mines. I hate them so much

 

[Odysseus]

If Genesis isn't petulant then he's not Genesis

That's the idea, yes

 

[Clement Rage]

How does that actually work, though? How does Angeal burn down his hometown and plausibly retain Zack's sympathy? Or use an army of murderous monsters to accomplish his goals?

 

[Odysseus]

How does that actually work, though? How does Angeal burn down his hometown and plausibly retain Zack's sympathy? Or use an army of murderous monsters to accomplish his goals?

Okay if I'm being real, the only way to "fix" crisis core for me would be to raise its plot from the ground and completely rework it. Angeal WOULDN'T keep Zack's respect, Zack would have to slowly come to grips with the fact that everything he believed in was a lie, and that he was working for and with a bunch of lunatics and monsters all along. There is no SOLDIER honor, his dreams were never real. It was propaganda bought and sold to him by an evil corperation. The big Hero Sephiroth is an anti-social introvert who goes crazy, and his mentor is a vindictive, jealous psycho who tries to burn the world to the ground before his life expires from degradation. Zack saving Cloud would be his redeeming act of heroism after a life of thinly-veiled villainy masked as championing a great cause. Cloud would be left to be the Hero Zack never really was.

 

[Makoeyes987]

So murder the child, and replace it with a new one. Got it.

 

[Odysseus]

So murder the child, and replace it with a new one. Got it.

yes

 

[Clement Rage]

How does 'slowly' work in those circumstances?

 

[Prism]

In regards to expanding Midgar (mentioned in a separate post), that was because of the PSP's limitations, right?

Okay if I'm being real, the only way to "fix" crisis core for me would be to raise its plot from the ground and completely rework it. Angeal WOULDN'T keep Zack's respect, Zack would have to slowly come to grips with the fact that everything he believed in was a lie, and that he was working for and with a bunch of lunatics and monsters all along. There is no SOLDIER honor, his dreams were never real. It was propaganda bought and sold to him by an evil corperation. The big Hero Sephiroth is an anti-social introvert who goes crazy, and his mentor is a vindictive, jealous psycho who tries to burn the world to the ground before his life expires from degradation. Zack saving Cloud would be his redeeming act of heroism after a life of thinly-veiled villainy masked as championing a great cause. Cloud would be left to be the Hero Zack never really was.

I started reading that with a pretty skeptical mind, but you won me over by the end. On that note...

How does 'slowly' work in those circumstances?

It's easier said than done to turn up the dial on story changes like that, yeah - easier to describe than to actually execute. I'm also curious how it would be pulled off, even when the sentiment is pretty much spot-on.

 

[Odysseus]

How does 'slowly' work in those circumstances?

slow

Really though, I just see it as Zack's confidence in his ideals deteriorating as he continues to fight with his former allies and not spend much time actually helping anyone. By Nibelhiem he'd realize how screwed everything really was, the company he works for producing the very monsters he'd been fighting all along. Maybe he'd almost feel like Sephiroth did, that he was just another monster made by Shinra. Any resolve he might have would be short lived though, considering what happens next.

I'm not really a game designer or a writer, I just know how I wish the game had felt.