SPOILERS INTERmission Chapter 2 Spoiler Discussion

[Shademp]

My gut tells me that Shalua appearing in FF7R is almost a guarantee. Looking forward to it.

EDIT: While I think the patch-work aesthetic of Shalua's outfit in DoC fits thematically with her mechanical arm and damaged body, I hope they give Shalua a better-looking outfit in FF7R.

 

[Tetsujin]

Shalua's design is so fucking stupid lmao

anyway, unrelated random thing that I only now realized

why the fuck did Red XIII not have any lines in the ending?!

 

[LegendarySaiyan]

Anyone noticed that Sector 7 Plate is gone in the new ending when Zack visits the church?

I did not until I watched a YouTuber mention it.

 

[Wol]

wasn't Shaula a Wall Market's prostitute?

 

[a_apple 2.0]

RE: Zack being in a AU

The reason why I really fucking hope the Devs don't go with a AU sideplot is for one, it eats up so much room with basically no pay off for any of the other characters in it except for Zack, since they are basically just the AU versions of the characters we know and love and secondly if we are suppose to take these character seriously and consider them as equal to the ones in the beagle universe then I really hope nobody dies in there because if we get a AU story where all the main characters from our universe are dead or maybe die later than why was Aerith and Zacks death such a big deal again?
Why should I be more sad over their death then the knowledge that mako poisoned potato Cloud bite the dust since there was no cure for him after he came to Midgar or maybe he drowned in a kiddie pool when Zack wasn't looking I don't know
What I'm trying to say is that if we have a side story where all the characters we like and cherish die off like flies then the game is really working against itself since it tries very hard to bait us with Aerith's death and the question if she will die this time too.

So it's hard for me to believe they ever will go there (or at least I hope they won't), to me this entire thing points towards Zack being brought back to life in the same timeline as the one where the main squad is.

 

[Shademp]

why the fuck did Red XIII not have any lines in the ending?!

THEY ARE UPHOLDING COMPILATION TRADITION

Anyone noticed that Sector 7 Plate is gone in the new ending when Zack visits the church?

I did not until I watched a YouTuber mention it.

My comment on that

I am so distrustful now of any plate analysis (which why I'll now do plate analysis ). Since Sector 5 is adjacent to Sector 6, which already has a partially missing plate, then the partially open sky seen in the Zack cutscene *could* be just Sector 6.

Comparing with gameplay screenshots won't work because the skybox in live gameplay is effed, misplacing the upper plates relative to the player's position.

But really, anything is possible at this stage.

 

[Torrie]

I'd like to add to the ongoing debate if the people in the church are from a specific sector -- no, they aren't. They are very much re-used assets as many have suggested. I've just emerged from Remake Chapter 2, and there are sooo many re-used NPCs in Sector 8 alone that if we crafted any theories about that, it would involve duplicating and teleporting people, which would be indescribably ridiculous

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Would they be wrong though? It isn't contradictory to the original game. It's contradictory to Dirge of Cerberus. And we're not remaking that.
It actually is consistent if you think about it. The Whispers have intervened with anything relating to the plot events of the original game. DoC is not the original game.
Maybe the problem is in thinking of them as keepers of the entire series canon when all they care about is retaining the plot to the game at hand - the original FFVII and its remake.

And do you know the compilation happened exactly as it did in the original timeline in Remake's future? Do you know that in the Remake timeline as it was fated to be there wasn't a hypothetical version of DoC where Yuffie did call out Nero and remembered Deepground's existence?
The future glimpses we have seen from the Whispers all related to big plot points from the original game. We know Aerith would have died. We know Meteor would've happened. We know Red XIII would've been there 500 years later with his cubs just in the original game.
We know a version of Advent Children probably happened due to the existence of the Whisper bros. But what do we know of the details inbetween? Could they have been a little different in the Remake timeline to begin with? Why do they have to match up exactly to the original compilation? Considering details within the Remake already differ without intervention of the Whispers?

How does citing the presence of Whispers from AC (a Compilation title) who are trying to protect their history help your suggestion that the Whispers are only concerned about non-Compilation events? And why would you isolate their area of concern to only the time period of the original game when VIIR told us outright they busy themselves with preserving history's proper course from the planet's birth to its death?

 

[Shademp]

And why would you isolate their area of concern to only the time period of the original game when VIIR told us outright they busy themselves with preserving history's proper course from the planet's birth to its death?

The fault may be mine because I accidentally spread misinformation in this post where I suggested the Whispers might only care for one time period in particular. I had forgotten that 7R states the Whispers act through the entire lifetime of the planet. If anyone can link to the chapter and quote it'd be much appreciated so that I don't have to go through a ton of footage.

Though I will hold that the Whispers may still have a set of guidelines and care about some time periods (and particularities of how events unfold) more than others, but that is for future lore to reveal, deny or omit.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

If anyone can link to the chapter and quote it'd be much appreciated so that I don't have to go through a ton of footage.

The conversation in Aerith's old room at the beginning of Chapter 17.

 

[Fiz]

Oh geez, I definitely avoided that debate. For me, what was being suggested didn't match the purpose of the scene. In the case of the Seventh Heaven sign, that scene was meant to show the Sector 7 survivors rebuilding their lives, giving their story closure. Not a great place to drop a timeline hint in my opinion. The Stamp chip bag and Zack's reaction to Aerith's absence though, those two receive special camera treatment in scenes that are new and surprising. That begs for analysis in my opinion.

But I digress! I must sound pretty delusional if I'm being compared to the Seventh Heaven sign debate, so I'll bow out for now haha.



Theory crafting can be fun, but I noticed there's a bit of negativity towards it with Remake. I think the two main issues are that we don't have enough info and that people don't want to be wrong.

Yes, we don't have enough info, but that's the point. Instead of focusing on that, I like to acknowledge the unique opportunity we have here. We get to be creative and piece together an explanation from our vast pre-existing knowledge, perhaps leading to valuable insights along the way.

A lot of people have decided to wait for the answers to become available before deciding if they like Remake's new direction. I think... those people won't like the new direction no matter what the answers are. With that mentality, a person would be approaching every new development with cynicism, and that's going to make any enjoyment an uphill battle.

We are currently in the most unique era with this new series. Someday we'll have the answers and we'll have them for a lot longer than when we didn't. I would say it's better to take advantage of the now than to let it pass us by.

But what if our theories turn out to be wrong? It's okay to be wrong. I think a person should always keep an open mind. I've been wrong. What's fun is letting the person I most disagreed with know that they were right. Then we got to share in the excitement.

Theory crafting can be engaging and collaborative. I've been vocal before that it's a great for the community. I still think that! And of course it's cool to just not like Remake's new direction at all. Just wanted to share my perspective is all.

Agreed. Theory crafting is taking punts, and to a point, trying to get into the writers heads. No matter how confident any of us are in any particular theory, that’s always going to come with risks of getting it totally wrong... because none of us are in the writers heads.

But, theory crafting is part of the appeal and fun with any mystery. We win some and we lose some. I expect most theories, including my own, will end up having bits spot on and bits way off. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t worthwhile to try.

If anyone gets toxic when someone is wrong, or if they are wrong themselves, then that’s their problem.

 

[Tetsujin]

How does citing the presence of Whispers from AC (a Compilation title) who are trying to protect their history help your suggestion that the Whispers are only concerned about non-Compilation events? And why would you isolate their area of concern to only the time period of the original game when VIIR told us outright they busy themselves with preserving history's proper course from the planet's birth to its death?

Because I'm not really talking about their literal in-universe function.

My point is that the creators wanted to play with your expectations and then make a point about stuff being different. And I think it is a mistake to rigidly see things from this in-universe perspective of "fate has changed after defeating the Whispers at the end" and equating it to "if the creators don't have the Whispers intervene, it must fit with in with previous Compilation canon and/or not being seen as a contradiction to that"

I think they absolutely wilfully contradicted Dirge here specifically because they're not setting up Dirge, they're already setting up more Remake stuff.
Because I don't think they approach it from the rigid perspective of "we can only remix and switch things up post-Arbiter defeat", they'll do it wherever they please in the timeline to tell the new story of FFVII that they have in mind.
Defeating the Arbiter was just the symbolic death of rigid adherence to old canon but we'll probably see it pop up whenever, even in events preceding that moment, like is currently the case with Yuffie fighting Nero.

Which is why, switching back to how one might want to make sense of it from an in-universe pedantic nerd perspective it's probably best to adopt my stance of just seeing it as a different timeline altogether even before the Arbiter defeat, one that was like the Compilation...but differs in details such as these.

tl;dr You'd best start believing in unknown journeys, Miss Yuffie. Yer in one!

 

[Makoeyes987]

It'll be interesting to see just how committed the writers are to "making things different" because while they do set up and give themselves leeway to make a point of "stuff being different," there exist multiple instances of Compilation off FFVII plot points being set up and established so those same events happen in the future, even with their previous context.

A perfect example is the experiment with Weiss and the digitization of one's consciousness. Hojo is there overseeing the experiment, and he is fascinated at how one can "transcend the flesh" due to the performance of Weiss in combat. The first seeds have now been planted which establish Hojo's scheme in Dirge of Cerberus to digitize his consciousness as a safeguard. Then he will hijack a much stronger body so that he can live forever and emulate his son. And we know who's body that will be.

There are other instances of this type of future contextualizing happening in the Remake, but this one in Intergrade is the most direct, in-your-face example. So if anything, there are mixed messages being conveyed. Between that and their own commentary via interviews, I don't know if the writers are that "all-in" on doing things completely different here. I suppose we'll see.

 

[KindOfBlue]

While I agree with your post, the developpers chose to not use assets from sector 7 - I mean, NPC. I know it's not the same team, so while I'm not putting any importance to the people there specially, I think that if they had wanted to use NPCs from sector 7, they would have. It would have had a bigger impact if it was about the plate fall.

I really wouldn’t think that much about the assets being used when it comes to theorycrafting, overthinking the skyboxes is already exhausting enough

Yes, but this is about the intent conveyed. Nojima put thought in that line. When you write there is intent "why is he saying this that way instead of this way" in such dramatic manner, it is meant to convey this. Is it about Zack discovering that something has happened (the plate fall, and he didn't really pay attention did he, although one can argue he doesn't know when it happened during the past 5 years) or that something has happened specifically to Aerith? Whether it's true or not, because they already have led us on the path of an alternate universe with Stamp (and done so in an Ultimania, no less), they wanted us to ponder about Aerith's fate specifically. Because if Zack is in an alternate universe then Aerith should be there since she can't have met up with Cloud.

As is always the case with the “developer’s intent” argument, unless the developer specifically expresses said intent, it’s far too easy to project one’s own interpretation into a scene and get it completely wrong so unless the ultimania tells us we’re meant to believe that Aerith might be dead in Zack’s time, I’ll take that idea with about as much of a grain of salt as any other idea proposed here

A perfect example is the experiment with Weiss and the digitization of one's consciousness. Hojo is there overseeing the experiment, and he is fascinated at how one can "transcend the flesh" due to the performance of Weiss in combat. The first seeds have now been planted which establish Hojo's scheme in Dirge of Cerberus to digitize his consciousness as a safeguard. Then he will hijack a much stronger body so that he can live forever and emulate his son. And we know who's body that will be.

They were pretty open about incoporating Compilation elements, so I just saw it as them using old material to explain why we can fight him in VR. If not to lead into DC directly, I think they could also just be “remixing” DC’s plot to fit the timeframe of the OG. On one hand, it could mean DC is only canon to the OG, but on the other hand, I’d say it’s a pretty good opportunity to tell a new story involving Deepground.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Wess is an interesting example. Because the devil is in the details. And enough details are missing from the set-up of Hojo's plan in DoC that make me think it won't be happening in Remake the same way for the same reasons.

Namely, Hojo didn't get interested in taking over... anyone really... until he saw Vincent who could transform into Chaos, which proved Lucrecia's theories about Omega right. This lead to him copying Fragments of himself onto the Network as he was dying... where they'd stay for the next three years...

Weiss would later SND into the Network in order to figure out a cure or the virus the Restrictors were using to kill him... right at the same time the WRO turned the Network on again. Which lead to Hojo's Fragments in the Network taking Weiss over because he was the perfect host for Omega.

In Intergrade... a lot of the needed steps for this to happen are missing. Hojo hasn't seen Vincent transforming into Chaos and doesn't know Omega is an option yet (heck, Hojo might not have been infected with Jenova's desire to travel the stars yet!). Weiss still hasn't taken over Deepground yet and has yet to be in danger of the virus at all. What was done with him to make the VR copy was Weiss doing an SND on the Network.

So a reference to "Hojo takes over Weiss" is sort-of there in the VR room. It looks like it's Hojo making use of Weiss' data to guage how good Cloud and Co. are. But how it's done is far enough removed from the circumstances of DoC's plot that I'm not sure DoC's plot will happen as a result of it.

 

[Eerie]

I really wouldn’t think that much about the assets being used when it comes to theorycrafting, overthinking the skyboxes is already exhausting enough

While it's true, and like, I don't think they're related to the NPC we see at the beginning of Remake for example, it quite begs the question as to why they chose to not reuse NPC that we somehow already saw in sector 7. Then again, whatever, not the same team, blablabla.

As is always the case with the “developer’s intent” argument, unless the developer specifically expresses said intent, it’s far too easy to project one’s own interpretation into a scene and get it completely wrong so unless the ultimania tells us we’re meant to believe that Aerith might be dead in Zack’s time, I’ll take that idea with about as much of a grain of salt as any other idea proposed here

Yeah no. Again, the way it's filmed, the dramatisation of Aerith's name on a black screen is not meant to make you think "oh those NPCs are crying because of the plate fall, and Aerith is not there because she's with Cloud, duh!"

It's meant to tell you that something has happened to Aerith specifically. They want us to wonder about her. If Zack is in an alternate timeline - the most popular theory until proven otherwise - it means that there must be an Aerith in his timeline too, one who didn't meet up with Cloud, Tifa, Barret... Why isn't Aerith present? By having her name said like this, the developpers don't want us to think "oh plate fall" they want us to think "What happened to Aerith???" And I really don't know how anyone can dismiss this. This isn't even theorycrafting at this point as it's much obvious; go watch Max' talk about this, as he watches the ending scene, you'll see he doesn't have to think twice to come up with this. He literally voiced what I was feeling about this scene, the nagging feeling I had and that literally hit me as he was watching "oh she's dead that's why it was such a heavy feeling". It's like when Aerith talks to Cloud in her resolution, you watch that scene and at that moment, I knew that she knew she was going to die soon; and that has been confirmed then by the devs. "Oh shit she knows!" and now "oh shit, she's dead!", those are feelings the developpers want people to feel in a way they can't really explain until they dissect the scenes.

The real theorycrafting comes after; what has happened to Aerith? Is she dead? Has she been kidnapped by Shinra and a kid tried to protect her?

I will say this, as a non-zerith shipper: they are creating the need for people to see Zack and Aerith reunite while alive. How will it be done, by merging worlds, etc. people can start theorycrafting *from there*: like, if there is a Zack somewhere who died to protect Cloud so the OG timeline could go on... then it means if there is a Zack alive, that his Aerith has to be dead. If there is a merging world then think about why Elmyra and Barret haven't talked about her going to Kalm. Because Elmyra will be needed to guide Zack. It can only happen if she stays in Midgar for now. The fact that Aerith 2 would be dead is actually an excellent argument in favour of merging timelines. And I'm pretty sure that Zack will be needed against this new Sephiroth, so it's a good way to bring him around (since he hasn't got an Aerith to make a singularity that could help him).

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

There are other instances of this type of future contextualizing happening in the Remake, but this one in Intergrade is the most direct, in-your-face example. So if anything, there are mixed messages being conveyed. Between that and their own commentary via interviews, I don't know if the writers are that "all-in" on doing things completely different here. I suppose we'll see.

This really shouldn't be as controversial an observation as it's being made out to be. =\ Nomura told us in an interview five years ago that one of the things they'd be doing with the remake is better connecting the Compilation to the framework of the original story ... =\

And even without that, I just don't see how this DLC "willfully contradicted Dirge," as @Tetsujin put it. Yuffie learned precisely what here? That Shinra has a few more SOLDIER freaks than just Sephiroth? Whoopdeedoo. =P

Wess is an interesting example. Because the devil is in the details. And enough details are missing from the set-up of Hojo's plan in DoC that make me think it won't be happening in Remake the same way for the same reasons.

Namely, Hojo didn't get interested in taking over... anyone really... until he saw Vincent who could transform into Chaos, which proved Lucrecia's theories about Omega right. This lead to him copying Fragments of himself onto the Network as he was dying... where they'd stay for the next three years...

Weiss would later SND into the Network in order to figure out a cure or the virus the Restrictors were using to kill him... right at the same time the WRO turned the Network on again. Which lead to Hojo's Fragments in the Network taking Weiss over because he was the perfect host for Omega.

In Intergrade... a lot of the needed steps for this to happen are missing. Hojo hasn't seen Vincent transforming into Chaos and doesn't know Omega is an option yet (heck, Hojo might not have been infected with Jenova's desire to travel the stars yet!). Weiss still hasn't taken over Deepground yet and has yet to be in danger of the virus at all. What was done with him to make the VR copy was Weiss doing an SND on the Network.

So a reference to "Hojo takes over Weiss" is sort-of there in the VR room. It looks like it's Hojo making use of Weiss' data to guage how good Cloud and Co. are. But how it's done is far enough removed from the circumstances of DoC's plot that I'm not sure DoC's plot will happen as a result of it.

Dirge never suggested that Hojo only became aware of or interested in the potential of digitizing consciousness after seeing Vincent's transformation into Chaos.

Also, his "Good to know" comment about what happens when you "transcend the flesh"? While using Weiss specifically? Absolutely valid as setting up what happens in Dirge, even if Weiss and Deepground don't come up again for the rest of the remake project.

 

[Clement Rage]

The Whispers allow the party into DG in Remake...and pointedly kick them out, before they discover too much. I feel like that rather proves my point.

The Whispers have symbolic value to the players as rejecting the compilation timeline, but they exist in universe as entities that have particular goals. When Cloud is fighting them, he's not fighting symbolism, he's fighting tangible ghosts with discernable goals.

The only reason they would protect OG Canon but not Dirge is if metagaming is happening in universe. Which would be bad, because it means they've failed to provide in universe motivations...but they have already in game provided in universe goals for them in that they are protecting the timeline. The timeline as a whole, not the OG Canon. If we were supposed to use out of universe logic to provide in universe motivations, then they never would have provided the 'protect the timeline' motivation for the Whispers. Symbolism works out of universe, but it doesn't work in universe. If you're going to use symbolism as the explanation, that requires ignoring the motivation they already have given us in universe (and means they've fucked up the in universe motivations)

[/quote]
Things to take issue with: Yuffie hears the name "Deepground," and Yuffie's friend is killed by Nero, who in DoC she has no big reaction to meeting (though she does get oddly emotional at Shelke for having such a disregard for her older sister, which kinda reminds me of Sonon now...)
Like I said before, Yuffie could easily forget the name deepground, as she hears it once and never gets context for what it even is anyway, so I'd consider that not a huge deal. We never see her initial reaction to them in DoC, so she could have been like "oh shit it's those guys." It's harder to grapple with her reaction to Nero (obviously when DoC was written, Sonon was not a thing,) so I'm gonna hide behind what I'm still considering the smoking gun of the argument here, the whispers. [/quote]

She hears the name Deepground...from the person that kills Sonon in front of her after he dies protecting her. Kinda a memorable event, don't you think? She sees the DG uniform, and recognises it as something distinct from the people they have been fighting previously, and recognises Nero as being on the same team.

Yuffie also works for the intelligence dept of the WRO, where it's a massive plot point that they are not prepared for and don't understand what is happening at first. They're not expecting trouble in Shinra HQ, they bring a news reporter on their expedition.

Y'all have been analysing potato chip bags and wilting flowers for 15 pages. Stop telling me this is too small to care about.

 

[Makoeyes987]

She hears the name Deepground...from the person that kills Sonon in front of her after he dies protecting her. Kinda a memorable event, don't you think?

Not memorable in the sense she'd take a mental note of unique paramilitary ranks of a corporation and then file away this single codename use of a word never heard of again until 3 years after a world saving quest against an alien and its hellspawn. Traumatic experience doesn't work that way. The directly personal experience and emotion of what she felt in that moment will override any unconnected details. Because these details are distant and lack tangible connection to her own lived experience; its useless information to her. Yuffie would only remember Sonon dying and some freak in bondage get-up being the one that attacked them. She's not going to remember specific ranks or names, especially ones encountered only once. For Yuffie, all of Shinra are evil and it doesn't matter if they're called Foreground or Deepsky. They are the enemy and delineating them is a waste of time. Shinra is Shinra.

 

[Clement Rage]

Demonstrably not true, she has already distinguished DG as distinct from the rest of Shinra even in the DLC itself.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yuffie also works for the intelligence dept of the WRO, where it's a massive plot point that they are not prepared for and don't understand what is happening at first.

That's not what I remember from Dirge at all ... Reeve and the WRO command are well aware of the names, ranks, etc. of the Tsviets by the beginning of the game thanks to intel they've recently recovered that belonged to Scarlet.

For all we know, they knew where to start digging when these psychos showed up because Yuffie said "Hey, I recognize these uniforms. Scarlet was there too."

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yuffie literally calls them "these assholes."

That's "distinguishing DG as distinct from the rest of Shinra?"

I think it's safe to say she thinks of all of Shinra as assholes.

 

[Odysseus]

Stop telling me this is too small to care about.

I was never trying to tell anyone what to think, I was just trying to have a discussion because I think it's kind of interesting. =/

 

[Clement Rage]

Y'all have just finished analysing timeline issues down to the tiniest grains of sand, but the gist of the responses I got for a different one that I happen to care about was that it was too small to matter. That's actually weirdly hurtful.

The attacks catch them in the middle of a festival flat footed. They sent the rescue teams in with a news reporter. They have some information, but they obviously weren't prepared for what they got, and if she said anything about Nero, that rescue team would not have brought a reporter with them.

Mako, the full line is 'who are these assholes' By asking the question, she's acknowledging that they're something distinct. If they were just another random branch of Shinra, why would she need to ask that? She doesn't do it for any of the other shinra people they've already fought when she encounters some new kind of Shinra troops.

 

[Roundhouse]

If Aerith really is dead, where does Zack go from here? I have no clue what his role will be in that context, hmm.