I know I've said this before but I want to know your opinions on this, now that we're slowly starting to know more about the game.
Do you feel, just like I do, that the problem with XIII is how disconnected each game seems from the rest? Like, XIII and XIII-2 seemed kind of unrelated save for characters and all that. They kind of softened it with old locations and a VERY reasonable explanation. Even if time travelling was kind of a cheap reason for it all to change...
Then, come LR FF:XIII, and it turns out we have another huge change in our hands. With probably another reason that WILL make sense but will still feel cheap to me. And while I can understand a big change with cheap reasons once in three games, twice is definitely too much.
My point is they seem to be using the characters for the sake of it and the way this game seems to go, they could have just made new characters, add 1 hour worth of playng/storyline to explain a necessary past story and it would still make sense. That's my issue here. A final game in a trilogy where you could almost ignore the first two entries means something's not right.
And don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed XIII and XIII-2 quite a bit and I'm sure I'll enjoy LR as well. The reason why I'm concerned about this is BECAUSE I like the games and it makes me feel a bit sad that these things are disappointing me.
The answer you're looking for is "yes." It seems that XIII-2 and LR are playgrounds for gameplay paradigms (no pun intended) they wanted to try out, with XIII's established characters and setting just used because $$$$.
Square-Enix are pathologically incapable of making a sequel that isn't completely different from its predecessor. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but from previous examples (X-2, Revenant Wings, and of course the Compilation) it's definitely expected.
They simply don't make sequels the way other developers do. If you look at a series like Mass Effect or any other continuing story games (even Assassin's Creed though I wouldn't class that as a "good" example because the continuing story turns to shit), you see that although the games have entirely new worlds/ levels and mechanics, you still feel like you're stepping back into the same world - which is also a good thing.
It depends a bit on taste I suppose. Change is obviously a good thing, but so is balance. XIII lacked balance between gameplay and story, and there was really something missing from XIII-2 for me that XIII had. I always struggle to put my finger on what it was. I tend to say that there's a "shiny-ness" to XIII that its sequel seems to lack. Lightning Returns is again completely different, but it's really the Final Fantasy ethos (between numbered entries) to create something completely different while retaining certain elements. They seem to apply this to direct sequels when there's no need to, it's just the way they make games.
I haven't had a ramble about these games for a while, forgive the tl;dr. Anyway my main point is Square-Enix don't really seem to think about continuation of the story in any of their direct sequels, it's usually an afterthought to "how can we make this game feel completely different".
I would argue that the 'shiny-ness' of which you speak of is Lightning herself.
The focus of the games is pretty much on how she handles each situation she is thrust in.
You could pretty much go from one end of the game to the other in FFXIII without even bothering to summon Eidolons other than Lightning's.
The need just isn't there, not even in terms of story.
FFXIII-2 is pretty much Lighting's mess that you have to clean up in the wake of her not being there to do it herself.
I think Lightning Returns is Square-Enix realising just how much of a focus they put on ONE character (and not the others) and trying to amend that by giving the other characters more depth via Lightning's perspective. Even if you ARE playing as Lightning for the game, you are doing what you would've done in the first two games anyway because by default she always stood out from the rest.
Unlike Cloud in FF7 who had a foil in Zack, Barret, Tifa, and Aerith, and a nemesis in Sephiroth. Lightning is pretty much her own foil, with snippets of other characters interacting with her "once in a while".
Character development, ever since Kitase left at least, hasn't been the greatest.
Just gotta deal with it, enjoy the game for what it is, and move on, hoping FFXV will be better.
Nah, Fang, Vanille, Lightning, maybe Snow all shared the spotlight, do strongly disagree it was Lightning alone though, and personally it was Fang and Vanille who made the game for me (and Vanille's my main, go Hecaton!)
Nah, Fang, Vanille, Lightning, maybe Snow all shared the spotlight, do strongly disagree it was Lightning alone though, and personally it was Fang and Vanille who made the game for me (and Vanille's my main, go Hecaton!)
FFXIII lacked balance, and I'd say its "shiny-ness" is its character development. It was done in such a way unlike the traditional JRPG where we arrive to character A's arc, finish it, see his/her great character development, then we move on to character B; maybe we'll see character A in the spotlight sometime later again but with little development. In XIII it wasn't like that, it was done in a very natural way. Even after their eidolon fights and their respective arcs (where they're separated and we were switching perspectives), and after they're reunited as a big party, they were still developing continually in leaps (Hope is a great example). And to me it felt more real and human, and it's the reason why from out of all the FF parties I've encountered, I saw the familial bond and humanity the most in XIII's.
As for the changes, for now my opinion is rather similar with everyone else's here, but I'm going to wait until LR releases for my final judgement. I want to see how much they'll refer to the original game. I kind of decided that if LR turns out to be a big disappointment story-wise, then I'm not accepting it as canon along with XIII-2.
On the topic of main characters, I personally think Fang and Vanille were the real main ones for XIII, Serah and Noel for XIII-2. Sure, Lightning had essential roles in those 2 but I'd say that LR is finally Lightning's game because we're seeing everything from her perspective.
XIII is definitely Vanille's and Fangs story, even with Lightning being the leader. The story was created so that Vanille and Fang is the center of the plot, and that while Lightning is the main character, her story is personal and about herself rather than the major plot itself.
I'm pretty sure there was an interview in which this was stated but I can't find it anymore.
I divide XIII in two parts really, the character driven story, which is around chapter 1-9, and the plot driven part, chapters 10 and above. Of course, plot and characterization bleed into each other, but I feel like they were separated in a way that most Final Fantasies seem to have an easier time seamlessly merging.
I think some of the most memorable conflicts weren't against the party and the big bad, it was the party for themselves. Cid Raines confrontation and Bart vs Party were cool, but there were nothing compared to Hope trying to kill Snow, Sazh aiming his gun at Vanille, etc.
And the most memorable fights were the summons, which were nothing more than a game mechanic version of man versus self.
The game was about an epic plot like the rest- but again like the other Final Fantasies- the real heart of the series is the characters and their internal personal struggles.
To me XIII-2 was missing
Difficultly and some linearness(I like the plot but it didn't have that impact that XIII had, LR seems to fixing that abit).
The linearity I don't miss. Although I don't actually have a problem with linearity as much as I have a problem with monotony, which was a trap XIII fell in. And I'm not doing this as a person who wants to complain about XIII- because I actually prefer XIII.
But I agree with the difficulty. I breezed through XIII-2, and I had to go on a "low crystarium run" to actually get a bit of challenge. That or the DLC.
Kitase never left. He's been the producer of the XIII series. You thinking of someone else?
The linearity I don't miss. Although I don't actually have a problem with linearity as much as I have a problem with monotony, which was a trap XIII fell in. And I'm not doing this as a person who wants to complain about XIII- because I actually prefer XIII.
Japan learned its lesson with Super Mario Bros 2, the one that was exactly the same as 1 and was never released outside Japan. You must always reinvent your concept. If you can't change you won't make it. It is so with companies and people, and also with video games. Also the FF series has been known for doing this exact thing all along (reinvention), I don't see why they'd be doing any different for their sequels. It's what keeps the series fresh.
A note: Hope was originally part of XIII-2's playable main cast, but they ended up scrapping the idea for some reason.
Satsu, BRIAN BLESSED, MIGHTY AND WISE Junpei Iori: Ace Detective, Maccaffrickstonson von Lichtenstafford Frabenschnaben, Polite Krogan, Robert Baratheon
Watching the characters tick in XIII was a thing of goddamn beauty.
The thing about sequels like X-2 and Revenant Wings is that they retain more than just the characters in their settings. They keep themes and/or aesthetic (to a point, re: Revenant Wings ) and make changes that have a directly-connected sense of progression.
You don't make a gigantic timeskip and explore Spira or Ivalice as a wasteland. The most direct comparison I would make to Nova Chrysalia would be perhaps the transition from the World of Balance to the World of Ruin from VI - but even then, there isn't an inexplicable timeskip of several centuries where apparently everyone just faffed about and decided to organise themselves into singular aspects of humanity and religion.
The irony of Mario games, I think, is that they're now wildly successful by honestly innovating very little. The last earthshaking change in fundamental design was probably Galaxy, and even that was followed up on with a sequel cut from largely the same cloth. I wouldn't say that sequels need to retain as many elements of their predecessors as possible, but I wouldn't argue that reinventing something as core as the setting is mandatory, either.
tl;dr I think keeping things different can be important in keeping things fresh, but I don't necessarily agree with the way the XIII series has handled that. For me, they feel stylistically disparate from each other to the point of excess - especially within their context as direct sequels.
Satsu hit the nail on the head. That is precisely what's off. X-2 and Revenant Wings still manage to feel like they're part of the same setting as their predecessors. Gameplay changed drastically, which -- if anything -- is what needs to stay relatively fresh in a video game series, but they still felt like they were part of the same world and that the characters belonged there.
Shit, Tactics and XII feel more like they belong together than XIII and XIII-2, or especially XIII and LR.
What Matsuno did with the Ivalice games is sort of what I expected from the Fabula Nova Crystallis "compilation." While I expected gameplay to be widlly different between them, I thought they would feel like they gelled at a mythological level, or be distinct stories sharing the same world history and such the way Matsuno's timeline goes from XII->Tactics->Vagrant Story->Tactics Advance -- a lost golden age, a medieval period, a Renaissance-like period and then a modern setting much like our own.
Instead, we have the Lightning Saga, where each new installment doesn't even manage to feel like it's part of the same story despite being direct sequels; the Agito setting, which is part of the same mythology in name only; and God only knows what the hell to expect from XVersus, but likely more of the same.
For those who don't know much about Type-0 -- which you can be forgiven for what with the disappointment of its ongoing lack of appearance outside Japan -- it presents a drastically different scenario involving the fal'Cie gods. In fact, I don't remember the term "fal'Cie" showing up in the game proper at all, but it's used a good bit in the Ultimania, where it takes four pages to explain things that weren't made readily apparent in the game itself.
The l'Cie concept bears significant differences from the Lightning Saga, where a l'Cie would be selected by a fal'Cie and then branded by that fal'Cie's respective fal'Cie god (Pulse or Lindzei), given a Focus, and then have a limited span of time to complete said Focus before becoming a Cie'th, with their ever-expanding brand serving as indication of their remaining time. In the Agito version of things, l'Cie are chosen and branded by the crystals of four nations that were created by
someone the Ultimania reveals to have been a fal'Cie serving Pulse all along.
Sounds similar enough so far, doesn't it? Crystals choosing l'Cie. The fal'Cie of the Lightning Saga have crystals at their core too if Anima is any indication, right?
Well, the crystals in the world of Orience grant immortality to their l'Cie, and so they may live for hundreds of years in defense of their respective nation until such time as their respective crystal's will for them has been fulfilled -- at whicih point their Focus is complete and they will crystallize. There is no physical brand placed upon l'Cie, however. Just a glowing glyph resembling Pulse's brand that will appear in front of l'Cie at times in one of four colors, depending of course on which crystal branded them. Well, that and their eyes glow red, so I guess that's a physical branding of sorts.
There's also no Cie'th countdown and Cie'th as a concept isn't even part of the setting.
Furthermore, the power of a l'Cie can be passed from one person to another if it is offered and accepted. Rather than freeing the original carrier of the power, though, this is apparently the fulfillment of the crystal's will for them, and they crystallize. Crystallization also seems to be treated much more as definitive death in the Agito setting than in the Lightning Saga.
Other differences are that l'Cie are hardly the only ones using magic. The crystals grant power to basically everyone, but l'Cie are particularly powerful. So much so, in fact, that they are kept in reserve until a situation becomes desperate.
Another oddity in the world of Orience versus the world of Gran Pulse is that the dead are forgotten. The crystals deliberately cause everyone to forget someone almost immediately after they have died. For example, the older brother of one of the main characters dies early in the game, and the younger sibling can remember only that they had a brother who is now dead.
Even memories associated with a person usually leave. When the playable cast defeats a significant enemy, they're only aware that they fought and killed someone, but they may not remember the battle. If someone is in danger, whether they can still be remembered is used to determine whether they're still alive and can be saved.
The number of fal'Cie at work in the world is also much smaller here, but their presence is every bit as significant, if not even more so.
Pulse and Lindzei each have one respective fal'Cie carrying out their will. Both are seeking Etro's Gate, as in the standard mythology, but that's about as far as the similarities go.
Lindzei still has the notion in mind that a grand sacrifice of human lives would be the best way to go about this, and so his fal'Cie servant seeks to go that route. Rather than Pulse creating a host of fal'Cie to scour the world for the door, though, he has apparently created only one, and this servant instead follows his will by shaping history such that one particularly powerful soul will emerge who can open the door. That soul is the Agito.
The preparation of the Agito is reminiscent of Barthandelus's trials to prepare XIII's l'Cie for their task of slaying Orphan, ironically, but has no direct parallel in the Lightning Saga's mythos.
Keep in mind, by the way, that all these details about Pulse and Lindzei are only found in the Ultimania. I don't think their names are ever even mentioned in the actual game. So, even if Type-0 had gotten a release outside Japan, it would have just confused the hell out of people. Interesting a title as it is, Type-0 is possibly the greatest example in recent years of Square's over reliance on Ultimanias to tell the story.
Perhaps the biggest difference between Agito and the Lightning Saga to become apparent, though, is that there is no Gran Pulse in Agito's setting and never was. Orience is the world that was created instead. It's mentioned near the game's end that Etro here still spilled her blood on its soil and that this blood still became human beings, but this course of events is altogether mutually exclusive from what happened on Gran Pulse in Lightning's setting.
In other words, rather than the Fabula Nova Crystallis being some grand tapestry of interrelated stories and settings sharing the same cosmology or history, they're different continuities altogether presenting alternative depictions of core ideas from Nojima's original concept for the mythology.
Motomu Toriyama has even admitted that the XIII, Agito and Versus teams do not communicate:
"The development of the three games was started at the same time and we gathered to try and find a common platform to stand on and try to build from. But since then, we've been working completely independently of each other. Each game is evolving in its own direction and take place in separate worlds with their own main characters. There exists basically no cooperation between the different teams. I wouldn't even want to claim that we communicate with each other."
On the one hand, I suppose this is a good thing. Players who love the Lightning Saga but can't experience Type-0 or Agito aren't missing out on anything, seeing as the Agito setting offers literally no added insight into the mythos of XIII.
At the same time, though, it's all just kind of stupid. It's like, "Why not just make them all fundamentally separate from the get-go?" Why even give the impression that they're related?
I swear what I read (not in Japanese, English) was that these are all different worlds in the same universe, same mythology. Lindzei is responsible for the plan to sacrifice humans in Type-0, and there were plans to link XIII and Type-0... Point is, I feel Lindzei is behind the sacrifice of humanity bit... Some way, some how at the very least. Lindzei's ... I'll say it again, Barthandelus is Lindzei's truest child; especially if Lumina turns out to be Lindzei.
Yeah, I remember reading about the plans to link Type-0 with XIII, but they decided against that for whatever reason. Probably when they realized, "Oh, shit, we went in completely different directions with our interpretations of the FNC mythology."
But they are most definitely not in the same universe. They're altogether mutually exclusive, I assure you.
The l'Cie concept bears significant differences from the Lightning Saga, where a l'Cie would be selected by a fal'Cie and then branded by that fal'Cie's respective fal'Cie god (Pulse or Lindzei), given a Focus, and then have a limited span of time to complete said Focus before becoming a Cie'th, with their ever-expanding brand serving as indication of their remaining time. In the Agito version of things, l'Cie are chosen and branded by the crystals of four nations that were created by
someone the Ultimania reveals to have been a fal'Cie serving Pulse all along.
Sounds similar enough so far, doesn't it? Crystals choosing l'Cie. The fal'Cie of the Lightning Saga have crystals at their core too if Anima is any indication, right?
Well, the crystals in the world of Orience grant immortality to their l'Cie, and so they may live for hundreds of years in defense of their respective nation until such time as their respective crystal's will for them has been fulfilled -- at whicih point their Focus is complete and they will crystallize. There is no physical brand placed upon l'Cie, however. Just a glowing glyph resembling Pulse's brand that will appear in front of l'Cie at times in one of four colors, depending of course on which crystal branded them. Well, that and their eyes glow red, so I guess that's a physical branding of sorts.
There's also no Cie'th countdown and Cie'th as a concept isn't even part of the setting.
Furthermore, the power of a l'Cie can be passed from one person to another if it is offered and accepted. Rather than freeing the original carrier of the power, though, this is apparently the fulfillment of the crystal's will for them, and they crystallize. Crystallization also seems to be treated much more as definitive death in the Agito setting than in the Lightning Saga.
Other differences are that l'Cie are hardly the only ones using magic. The crystals grant power to basically everyone, but l'Cie are particularly powerful. So much so, in fact, that they are kept in reserve until a situation becomes desperate.
About all I can say in regards to the Fabula Nova Crystallis saga is what I know about the Batman Mythos (sorry if this seems like a tangent but it has a point).
You had "Detective Comics" (which is where he originally appeared (but these stories don't always feature Batman himself), then you had "Batman" which runs the main stories, "World's Finest Comics/Star-Spangled Comics/Brave and the Bold" which tends to crossover with other heroes.
Then you had "Shadow of the Bat" and "Legends of the Dark Knight" which tend to be brief vignettes or self-contained stories, though they don't always fall under canon with the Batman storyline as a whole. Then you have "Batman Adventures" which is a spin-off that retells some older stories in the style of "Batman: The Animated Series" TV show.
You also get other spinoffs like "Robin/Azrael/Nightwing/Catwoman/Batgirl/Harley Quinn/Red Robin/Batwoman/Red Hood/Gotham Central/Batman Incorporated" etc that tell other characters' stories, not to mention "Elseworlds/Justice League/Teen Titans" which has a ton of other crossovers.
It's all one mythos, but it doesn't follow everything in canon and often comprises of different materials and universes and even Batmen of different eras (Golden Age/Silver Age/Batman Beyond etc).
They once tried to unify the universes with "Crisis on Infinite Earths" but that didn't turn out very well (and it's not the first time they tried either).
When it comes to FF games I try to keep an open mind about the fact the game is TRYING to be self-contained and you can't really compare each and every game to a Prequel or Sequel that may/may not be related to it.
If it does point to other games, that's great, but if it doesn't or doesn't do it very well...you just gotta judge it on its own merits.
And yes, I would LOVE it if they didn't use Ultimania to explain stories. Ultimania should be used for Production concepts and stuff that got scrapped or something that explains stuff you might MISS in the game (but is still IN the game). Yeesh.
Well, nowadays more games are including encyclopedias of terms/people/places so that's a good sign.
Another significant difference between the Orience and Gran Pulse settings: On Gran Pulse, Yuel is the only human to be reincarnated as such. In Orience, everyone has been reincarnated over 600 million times.
Yeah, I remember reading about the plans to link Type-0 with XIII, but they decided against that for whatever reason. Probably when they realized, "Oh, shit, we went in completely different directions with our interpretations of the FNC mythology."
But they are most definitely not in the same universe. They're altogether mutually exclusive, I assure you.
Don't get me wrong. Type-0 still has a lot going for it. Including more gay/possibly bi characters.
Honestly, it is very annoying that some of the most important background details just don't get raised during the course of the story proper, though. I don't know why SE fails so hard at this. Pacing and a number of plot developmemts will make you "wtf" too. And the game has the most annoying character in FF history.
But what flaws it has don't outshine the good, and the different version of the FNC mythology really can't be counted against it. As FF titles go, it's a damn good game, especislly having been for the PSP (puts Crisis Core to shame, that's for sure), and it's well worth localizing outside Japan.
And there's a lot of good characters too. Lots of clever stuff tucked away to be discovered. Overall solid game design. And the origin of Gilgamesh. Yes, the real one.
Yeah, Type-0 does look interesting and I've not spoiled anything for myself yet in the hopes they'll release it eventually (HD release plz). Just the concept of the FNC itself was not really what I hoped it would be.
I think Square-Enix themselves initially had bigger plans for it too. Then again, it would've probably resulted in even more format-spread (buy the novels! and the movie! and the GameboyColor games!).
