SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[The Twilight Mexican]

Sounds like you're projecting.

Sounds like you're assuming (incorrectly) that someone is a Clerith (shock and awe, worst thing in the world) because they aren't behaving like an irrational fuckloon.

Now stop being a dick in this section or be banned from it.

 

[loozzer]

lmao, crying conspiracy because Clerith isn't a thing. This isn't the Witcher bro, this isn't a choice of your liking where you can choose dialogue and project your feelings into the main character as designed. Where Geralt is a combination of his backstory and the player's choices; Cloud is his own character and the developers give you absolutely no choice on deviating from it.

lmao why are you getting so upset you can look through my post history and clearly see that i stan cloti.

it's obvious that clerith have romantic feelings for each other (the magnitude of these feelings are up for debate). it's sad when cloti stans feel the need to put down other ships out of insecurity, we can and should do better. if you're gonna come in with bullshit arguments i'm gonna respond to them. i don't need to put a disclaimer about how i prefer cloti just to make you feel better. you didn't even respond to the actual point i made in response to your "cloud and aerith don't even have love in the broadest sense" argument lol.

 

[Stiggie]

lmao why are you getting so upset you can look through my post history and clearly see that i stan cloti.

it's obvious that clerith have romantic feelings for each other (the magnitude of these feelings are up for debate). it's sad when cloti stans feel the need to put down other ships out of insecurity, we can and should do better. if you're gonna come in with bullshit arguments i'm gonna respond to them. i don't need to put a disclaimer about how i prefer cloti just to make you feel better. you didn't even respond to the actual point i made in response to your "cloud and aerith don't even have love in the broadest sense" argument lol.

I don't think it's the magnitude as much as the genuineness of the feelings. I agree that Soldier Cloud and Aerith clearly have some feelings for each other, but I care more about whether or not those feelings can be considered real, whether they translate to the real Cloud (I think mostly, no), and if they did, whether those feelings would be considered real (again, I'd say no).


From a philosophical perspective I tend to say you are who you are, we are all shaped by the things that happened to us, doesn't make us any less us. In that way, even soldier Cloud is the real Cloud, feelings are the result of events, and therefore, no matter how unusual the circumstances that created these feelings were, they're still real. That having been said, I cannot look at the feelings between Aerith and Cloud as anything other than fundamentally tainted. And the stronger they are, the more tainted it feels to me.


If it were just a small push in the direction of them starting to like each other, then I'd still be dubious about it, but heej, sometimes things happen. But when it's to the point where you (according to Cleriths) prefer this guy over the man you've been pinning over for 5 years when you don't even know his true self? That to me is just messed up and I want nothing to do with such a romance.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I don't think it's the magnitude as much as the genuineness of the feelings. I agree that Soldier Cloud and Aerith clearly have some feelings for each other, but I care more about whether or not those feelings can be considered real, whether they translate to the real Cloud (I think mostly, no), and if they did, whether those feelings would be considered real (again, I'd say no).

Not only that, but I don't think Aerith is exactly attracted to /romantically in love with Cloud either. I mean, apart from thinking he's easy on the eyes. FF7R made sure to emphasize the bits of Cloud and Aerith's interactions based of the moments of Crisis Core that IT emphasized based on ff7og moments to really drive home that Aerith is not over her first love, and is probably subconciously trying to recapture that in SOLDIER 1st Class Cloud. But I also think it goes to show she realizes after a bit that she IS doing this and that she doesn't love Cloud for Cloud, at least not yet. Maybe that'll change.

 

[Stiggie]

Not only that, but I don't think Aerith is exactly attracted to /romantically in love with Cloud either. I mean, apart from thinking he's easy on the eyes. FF7R made sure to emphasize the bits of Cloud and Aerith's interactions based of the moments of Crisis Core that IT emphasized based on ff7og moments to really drive home that Aerith is not over her first love, and is probably subconciously trying to recapture that in SOLDIER 1st Class Cloud. But I also think it goes to show she realizes after a bit that she IS doing this and that she doesn't love Cloud for Cloud, at least not yet. Maybe that'll change.

Agreed, and I personally think she never did in the OG either. I think that she could have, but I just think the tragedy of her mistaking her yearning for the ghost of Zack as being in love again is better storytelling than "I first liked him because of Zack, but then I got over that and coincidentally liked him for him, even though I never really met him".

Now don't get me wrong, I think Aerith would like Real Cloud, and I think that if Zack had never been a thing I think Aerith COULD have been attracted to Real Cloud. But Zack is a thing, and Aerith didn't meet the real Cloud and I enjoy the sad melancholy of the idea that even had she been with Cloud, he could never quite fill that hole, not because Cloud is lesser, but just because he's so alike, that a part of her would always think "it's not quite right". I think Aerith could love again, but loving someone whose this close to your lost love just draws attention to the one who is gone, it invites unwanted feelings of competition almost.

I've noticed this in real life with my aunt, she was married to my uncle (surprise), a man named "Jan", and Jan had a very distinct haircut and mustache. But he died young and suddenly and she was understandably heart broken.
A few years after that she starting dating a new man, whose name was Jan, and who had the exact same mustache and haircut, and it was just weird.


Now I am sure that by this time, 20 years later, she loves him more than she did Jan the first, but I can't not make the comparison, I can't shed the idea that while she loves Jan the second, that in part he's a stand in who is there because Jan the first is not.

I am not a fan of that concept, it feels like people making the most of a lie, it's still genuine eventually, it still works, but it just doesn't sit right with me. Because of that, even if real Cloud and Aerith were to fall head over heels in love, I could just never get behind it, I'd always think "this is wrong, and if Zack had lived Aerith would have been with him and Tifa with Cloud, which is why I could never ship it.

 

[null]

Not only that, but I don't think Aerith is exactly attracted to /romantically in love with Cloud either. I mean, apart from thinking he's easy on the eyes. FF7R made sure to emphasize the bits of Cloud and Aerith's interactions based of the moments of Crisis Core that IT emphasized based on ff7og moments to really drive home that Aerith is not over her first love, and is probably subconciously trying to recapture that in SOLDIER 1st Class Cloud. But I also think it goes to show she realizes after a bit that she IS doing this and that she doesn't love Cloud for Cloud, at least not yet. Maybe that'll change.

Couldn't we deconstruct Tifa's attraction the same way though? She crushes on a loner boy she doesn't really know, then falls hard for a human red flag who's cocky and in control. Later she meets the real Cloud who has a different charm, but he's not cocky anymore, he's awkward and less assured, and clearly a few grades behind mentally. But Tifa never seems to need to have trouble readjusting to the newest version of Cloud.

 

[Eerie]

I disagree about the she doesn’t know. I read in reddit that Cloud and Tifa are described as childhood friends but it’s a specific concept that doesn’t translate in other languages: it’s more like they’ve grown up in a tiny village where you know everyone and have a general knowledge of the other that you wouldn’t in a big city. Even if they don’t talk they can’t not know each other, so to speak, because they have this pretty good understanding of who the other is. I am also guessing that is why they were literally neighbours, to give more credence to this concept.

As for clerith, I think the interesting thing is how SOLDIER Cloud’s feelings translate to the real Cloud. To me, it seems unlikely that their romantic nature persist, but I do think that Cloud cherishes their memories. Those are part of the bonds he made that shaped him in some ways, however I do think his love for Tifa has shaped him in such a way that even if Aerith was still alive, he would not chose her. And given how cloti is developped in Remake, I think it’s even more unlikely. In the OG, his feelings were created as an illusion for the player, as in, they were real but they were there to hide the truth about his feelings for Tifa and just how much they impacted the story. In Remake, they’ve steer away from this because it’s pretty much impossible to miss his attraction and attentiveness for Tifa. He cares about everyone, yes, but he goes extra lengths for Tifa. The way they’re presented visually is very distinctive from Cloud and anyone else, including Aerith, and it’s really interesting to study that cinematic angle.

 

[rkss]

Tifa doesn't call Cloud "childhood friend" (幼馴染) in the remake. Only Biggs does, no idea why Bigg makes such assumption

 

[Stiggie]

Tifa doesn't call Cloud "childhood friend" (幼馴染) in the remake. Only Biggs does, no idea why Bigg makes such assumption

Probably knows more than we do, just because it's not said in the game doesn't mean it hasn't been said.

Tifa probably told Biggs about the dude who was going to help him, told him he's her "childhood friend", not everything has to be said by Tifa or Cloud ingame in order to be true.

 

[Eerie]

I am talking about the materials around the game, like the Ultimanias. Tifa is always referred to Cloud as his childhood friend, even though even in Remake, she admits that they weren't that close. It doesn't stop them from having that deep sense of "who the other is".

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Probably knows more than we do, just because it's not said in the game doesn't mean it hasn't been said.

Tifa probably told Biggs about the dude who was going to help him, told him he's her "childhood friend", not everything has to be said by Tifa or Cloud ingame in order to be true.

Yeah, Biggs and the others were clearly briefed to that extent. Thus, Jessie knowing enough to ask Cloud about his friendship with Tifa during the first reactor run.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Couldn't we deconstruct Tifa's attraction the same way though? She crushes on a loner boy she doesn't really know, then falls hard for a human red flag who's cocky and in control. Later she meets the real Cloud who has a different charm, but he's not cocky anymore, he's awkward and less assured, and clearly a few grades behind mentally. But Tifa never seems to need to have trouble readjusting to the newest version of Cloud.

To an extent, yes, but she's not transposing her feelings for someone else entirely onto a Cloud who is emulating that person subconsciously. That's specifically what Aerith is doing and CC and the Remake make sure to point that out to us. Tifa is also initially more in love with an Idea of Cloud than Cloud himself- that's sort of how attraction works in the short term- but Aerith is initially in love with an idea of Cloud as a replacement Zack and she seems to realize and not want that.

 

[Stiggie]

To an extent, yes, but she's not transposing her feelings for someone else entirely onto a Cloud who is emulating that person subconsciously. That's specifically what Aerith is doing and CC and the Remake make sure to point that out to us. Tifa is also initially more in love with an Idea of Cloud than Cloud himself- that's sort of how attraction works in the short term- but Aerith is initially in love with an idea of Cloud as a replacement Zack and she seems to realize and not want that.

Yeah, I think we need to take reality into account here. You're never really intentionally attracted to the person at first, you're always attracted to the idea of the person you have in your head, that's just normal.
The difference is that the idea Tifa has of Cloud is actually created by the actions of Cloud, they might be misunderstood, but they're still fundamentally him in a way that Aeriths attraction to Cloud isn't.
But this is basically exactly why I don't describe either girls affections for him as "love" at first.

I also think that Tifa in some way does actually see through Cloud, I keep coming back to the "eyes" comment, it really tells me that Tifa sees that he's different, and doesn't like it, which to me implies at least some knowledge and appreciation about who Cloud really is.

Tifa seems more put off by Soldier Cloud than she would have been by true Cloud, Aerith seems more attracted to Soldier Cloud because of the fake (Zack) aspect, I think that matters.

 

[ExampleZ]

Even though I'm more of a Tifa guy it would be pretty wild if Square decided to keep Aerith alive and maybe even have her be the one to restore Cloud's lost memories and hook up with him before the final battle. There isn't a soul on the internet who doesn't already know about her death in OG FF7, so I have a strong feeling they'll try to subvert our expectations like they did with Zack. After the death of the arbiters of fate, anything goes, and the ending explicitly stated that the rest of the story will not be the same as the original.

 

[Eerie]

I think people should stop looking at things for shock value that make no sense narratively and accept the strong narratives that are written in the game.

Can Aerith survive? Absolutely. Can she heal Cloud in the Lifestream scene? Absolutely not. The Lifestream scene can only happen with Tifa because she’s the only one who was concerned by those memories and can confirm their existence. And furthermore it’s a love confession from Cloud to Tifa. Aerith’s role is much grander than the LTD, especially in Remake where she is the most important character - I’d even say she’s the Holy Grail of Remake. Tifa’s role as the sole heroine of Remake is to support Cloud - and it has been expanded on in the game compared to OG. To me the devs have decided to strip Aerith from the title of heroine to give her a dimension that’s much more than just heroine, ironically.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

Even though I'm more of a Tifa guy it would be pretty wild if Square decided to keep Aerith alive and maybe even have her be the one to restore Cloud's lost memories and hook up with him before the final battle. There isn't a soul on the internet who doesn't already know about her death in OG FF7, so I have a strong feeling they'll try to subvert our expectations like they did with Zack. After the death of the arbiters of fate, anything goes, and the ending explicitly stated that the rest of the story will not be the same as the original.

They kinda doubled down with the entire Cloud/Tifa thing in the remake while lessen a lot of Cloud/Aerith moments by connecting them to Zack or just cutting them out entirely, I mean you never know what we will get actually in the end but from what we have seen so far my guess is that it will be once again Cloud/Tifa and Zack/Aerith.

 

[ExampleZ]

I think people should stop looking at things for shock value that make no sense narratively and accept the strong narratives that are written in the game.

Can Aerith survive? Absolutely. Can she heal Cloud in the Lifestream scene? Absolutely not. The Lifestream scene can only happen with Tifa because she’s the only one who was concerned by those memories and can confirm their existence. And furthermore it’s a love confession from Cloud to Tifa. Aerith’s role is much grander than the LTD, especially in Remake where she is the most important character - I’d even say she’s the Holy Grail of Remake. Tifa’s role as the sole heroine of Remake is to support Cloud - and it has been expanded on in the game compared to OG. To me the devs have decided to strip Aerith from the title of heroine to give her a dimension that’s much more than just heroine, ironically.

Since when has "making sense narratively" ever mattered to Square Enix? Need I remind you of Advent Children, which is still canon last I checked.

They kinda doubled down with the entire Cloud/Tifa thing in the remake while lessen a lot of Cloud/Aerith moments by connecting them to Zack or just cutting them out entirely, I mean you never know what we will get actually in the end but from what we have seen so far my guess is that it will be once again Cloud/Tifa and Zack/Aerith.

Yeah true. Now that you mention it they'll more than likely try to shove Zack in everywhere as much as possible.

 

[Eerie]

Since when has "making sense narratively" ever mattered to Square Enix? Need I remind you of Advent Children, which is still canon last I checked.

I don't know how it changes anything since in AC/C Cloud and Tifa are depicted as a couple going through a rough patch but still end up together. In matter of the LTD, AC/C cements cloti more than anything else. Was it badly written? Yes, AC moreso than AC/C, but as I'm looking back at it, I also understand more what they tried to do.

 

[rkss]

Even though I'm more of a Tifa guy it would be pretty wild if Square decided to keep Aerith alive and maybe even have her be the one to restore Cloud's lost memories and hook up with him before the final battle. There isn't a soul on the internet who doesn't already know about her death in OG FF7, so I have a strong feeling they'll try to subvert our expectations like they did with Zack. After the death of the arbiters of fate, anything goes, and the ending explicitly stated that the rest of the story will not be the same as the original.

Doesn't work like that, she would visit Elmyra if that was the case. Otherwise it would make her look very bad.

I don't know the direction SE going but I know for sure, they're not going to assasinate character(s) trait just to make a portion of the fanbase happy. The one that requires least assumption is usually the correct answer

Also this is unrelated. I always think Nojima is a big fan of Zack, he wrote CC' script years before SE even greenlit' ed the project. For that I believe, Zack's role is going to be well defined this time.

 

[minami758]

Even though I'm more of a Tifa guy it would be pretty wild if Square decided to keep Aerith alive and maybe even have her be the one to restore Cloud's lost memories and hook up with him before the final battle. There isn't a soul on the internet who doesn't already know about her death in OG FF7, so I have a strong feeling they'll try to subvert our expectations like they did with Zack. After the death of the arbiters of fate, anything goes, and the ending explicitly stated that the rest of the story will not be the same as the original.

This isn't directed at you specifically, and I apologize in advance for my strong wording, but you brought up a point I've been seeing since the Remake came out that I feel the need to address.

I absolutely despise this idea that FF7 is somehow a "choose-your-own-harem" adventure game where the women are interchangeable and don't affect the plot in any meaningful way. It misses the point of the narrative and is lowkey misogynistic. Each character plays an important role in the plot, and every role is different. Even in the OG, the affection mechanics only serve to affect the date at Gold Saucer — everything in the plot still happens the same way, no matter who you end up going on a date with. FF7 isn't The Witcher (and even in that game there's a canon couple) nor is it Persona 5. Cloud isn't some blank-slate character that players can project their own preferences onto.

While the plot of FF7 and the Compilation might be convoluted at times, the relationship dynamics and character development have always been clear — it's one of the strong suits of the game. To suggest that Aerith can do what Tifa does in the Lifestream undermines Tifa's character and reveals a complete lack of understanding of Cloud and Tifa's relationship within the context of the game.

I highly doubt SE would go in the direction of "branching narratives" where you get one woman or the other because that cheapens their characters and the entire narrative as a whole. And if they do go in that direction, I can surely say that no one would be happy with that outcome. And if they decide to go in a CA direction, I'd prefer they actually create a unique storyline for the two of them instead of just replacing Tifa, because that's just lazy.

 

[Odysseus]

t- the love points actually do more than just the date scene...
but yeah, I agree. You can't just swap their roles and get the same result. The reason Tifa could help cloud in the lifestream is because of their connection. Most of the memories in that sequence directly pertain to how Cloud feels about Tifa. Aerith could never have been the one to do it.

 

[Cat on Mars]

You can't just swap their roles and get the same result. The reason Tifa could help cloud in the lifestream is because of their connection. Most of the memories in that sequence directly pertain to how Cloud feels about Tifa. Aerith could never have been the one to do it.

You don't get it, Cetra powers can do anything! She could read Tifa's mind and use that info to manipulate Cloud's mind and become the new villian or something.
Yeah that's how insane the idea sounds.

 

[minami758]

Sorry @Odysseus, you're right, I was all up in my feelings for a moment there, lol. They affect the date and also the Highwind, but everything pre and post that is still the same. unless i'm missing something else but i don't think i am?

 

[Odysseus]

unless i'm missing something else but i don't think i am?

You can get some additional dialogue in a few places too. Nothing all that substantial though.

 

[null]

After the death of the arbiters of fate, anything goes, and the ending explicitly stated that the rest of the story will not be the same as the original.

I completely agree the game established an all-bets-are-off scenario, but Kitase later said this:

“From here on out, we’re not drastically changing the story and making it into something completely different than the original. Even though it’s a Remake, please assume that FF7 will still be FF7 as usual.”