SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[S.L.Kerrigan]

So here as kids notice how Cloud was dressed. White shirt over the top of a black one, ankle length boots the same color as his eyes and his hair was tied back into a ponytail. Now as adults this is what Tifa dresses like...

The upper outfit and the poneytail are striking me now that you mention it !
You say that Cloud's shoes in this scene are the same colour as his eyes. I would like to see it but I can't.
Aren't the boots black? Please, what do you mean ?

I see that young Cloud holds his hair with a blue tie (like his eyes) and modern Tifa does it with a red tie.
In OG young Cloud wears a tie that matches the colour of his pants (green), same for the Remake except with the blue colour.

 

[Eerie]

Honestly, I think they're just going to elaborate on her arc from the original. "Moving on" was never a part of Aerith's character arc(and she definitely fails by the end of Remake at doing it), because it was never her destiny to be with Cloud or anyone else. There is nothing for Aerith to move on to except her fate. Aerith's arc was always about embracing her destiny, meaning her death is still set in stone.

I agree that Aerith's arc is about embrassing her destiny, however in the OG it did come through falling for Cloud - even if he was not the real Cloud at this moment. Remake shows that Aerith *wants* to move on, and I still think this needs to be adressed. She was forced to let go of Zack only by the end of Remake, with her seeing that vision of him. Clearly, she wasn't aware of his fate prior to her first vision of him, before stepping in the portal. Only then, seeing all the whispers around Zack, she understood what happened, and decided to defy destiny. Yet she knows that if he survived, he's not with her anymore, as she is following Cloud who use(d) the Buster sword, and no Zack in sight. This is why she comments on how much she hates the sky - it's not a mistake, it's because *her* Zack is dead. She will never meet the one she saved and she is aware of that.

Thirdly, Remake-Aerith comes off like the queen of cloti-shipping, so I don't think the devs intend to do much more with clerith.

I always say it, but I don't think it's "shipping". Her reactions to Cloud, Tifa, and their relationship is also a way to display how her powers work. She really observes him a lot, like when they fall in the wagon and Tifa hurts herself and passes them briskly because she thought he was only checking on Aerith. There's also the flower that she finds on 7th Heaven's counter - and how she says that the flowers used to guide her. So to me, the flower on that counter shows her that what she had guessed was right: this is where Cloud's heart lies, and this is why there is a certain distance between them after this scene that is interesting to think about; did the devs really kill clerith here and there, or will there be more hints to come? With some of the story deviating, there are some things at stake.

Also, there is something, however, that makes me think about twice. Aerith in the OG had no clue about Cloud's true feelings; Aerith in Remake becomes aware of them rather quickly. Knowing that Cloud loves another girl, however, will not prevent her from falling for him. And as long as he does not remember his memories and where his heart is, she can't do anything about Cloud becoming closer to her. This is why I say there will be more clerith in the next game. However, knowing those feelings will certainly add some "resistance" from her; when you know a guy is all about your best friend, do you want to entangle your heart there? I think it's why she is so clear in her scene in ch14 with Cloud, it's because it's difficult for her, to be this attracted to him - also because he has some Zack characteristics - and he makes her happy, but she knows it's all fake. It must be heartbreaking for her, when you think about it. I think also it's why there are so many zerith shippers out there who wish that Zack and Aerith could reunite; it's because they want Aerith to be truly happy, and I can understand this feeling.

Ultimately, I think Aerith's role and feelings for Cloud are more maternal than romantic, regardless of what she thinks they were starting out. This is confirmed by Cloud's freudian slip during AC where he called her "mother" in the lifestream. This is referenced in the Remake when Cloud has a vision of his mother after he decides to sleep over at Aerith's house. Aerith views Cloud as a delicate flower who needs nurturing because she is "mother nature." This is evidenced by how she talks about Cloud in OtWtaS.

Yes and no. Ultimately, yes, she becomes a mother figure, with him calling her "mother", but also with her joking with Zack what should they do with such a big baby. However, in the OG, she is romantically interested in him. Lifestream White is very clear about that, that Cloud was her beloved. This is why I feel that her falling for Cloud was part of her arc, at least in the OG. Even in Remake, she is attracted to him, it's clear. So it's very possible that the devs will continue to also expand on this. And I say that as a cloti fan.

Thinking on this a bit, I'm getting kind of tired of experiencing the story from Cloud's perspective. At this point, I'd rather experience the story from Aerith's. Her story is far more interesting and relevant to the main plot at this point. I think the developers will give us this opportunity at some point in the future. If the story of Remake continues to follow the path of the OG up until the Temple of the Ancients, I think Aerith will be the protagonist post-TotA, at least until she dies.

FFVII, and thus, Remake, is the story of Cloud Strife. A lot of people find Sephiroth more interesting than Cloud, but it doesn't change that it's Cloud's story. Aerith may have a very important role, however, she is no hero nor heroine (!!) since Remake (promo and Ultimania) has made abundantly clear that these roles are for Cloud and Tifa to take. I think one of the things that, we'll say, "hurts" clerith, is Aerith's bigger role towards the external plot, because as to balance things out, they had to keep low amount of clerith scenes. In contrast, they upped Tifa's role in the internal struggle, so that mathematically means a lot more cloti scenes - since her role towards the external plot has always been minimal, it was never a problem.

To come back to this protag thing, let's not forget that the protagonist is more interesting to follow if he knows much less than other characters - look at The Lord of the Rings, Frodo knows much much less than Gandalf, yet he is the protag. Also, a lot of people forget it, but at the end of Remake part 1, Aerith *gives back* the lead to Cloud. Tifa asks *her* what to do now, and in turn, Aerith turns to Cloud. This is very significant, in terms of what's to come. The end of chapter 18 had her in the leading role, but it's not a role she seeks for herself.

That said, there's little guarantee the story will follow the same trajectory of the original game. We probably will visit the Golden Saucer, but at this point, there's little reason to include dating options.

Yeah I think how the story will turn in the next game will be very interesting to follow. I've already pondered about the GS date earlier in this thread; it is to note that Cloud and Aerith already had their date in part 1, while Cloud and Tifa did not have it yet. This didn't go unnoticed by me, especially since the midnight rendez-vous from chapter 14 is a nod to the GS date system. However, the player has much, much less control of the "romance" side of the game this time around, and clerith scenes are very little in comparison to cloti ones (which is logical given how they expanded the girls' roles). I still think that, the GS date being so iconic, we're bound to see it again. However, if it was a mandatory date with Tifa this time around, I wouldn't be half-surprised either. It all depends on how they go next game, both are possibilities, but I think players are quick to dismiss the possibility of a GS date system while I think it's one of the most obvious things to come ^^'

Personally I'm looking forward the GS because I think it will be more grandiose and at the same time darker than the OG one haha.

 

[MasterMoogle]

I agree that Aerith's arc is about embrassing her destiny, however in the OG it did come through falling for Cloud - even if he was not the real Cloud at this moment. Remake shows that Aerith *wants* to move on, and I still think this needs to be adressed. She was forced to let go of Zack only by the end of Remake, with her seeing that vision of him. Clearly, she wasn't aware of his fate prior to her first vision of him, before stepping in the portal. Only then, seeing all the whispers around Zack, she understood what happened, and decided to defy destiny. Yet she knows that if he survived, he's not with her anymore, as she is following Cloud who use(d) the Buster sword, and no Zack in sight. This is why she comments on how much she hates the sky - it's not a mistake, it's because *her* Zack is dead. She will never meet the one she saved and she is aware of that.

Not sure I agree that Aerith sensed or saw him during the ending, but if Zack is alive(still up for debate), it's almost impossible that Aerith and Zack won't reunite some time in the future.

I honestly don't think Aerith knows that Zack is alive, if he is.

Also, there is something, however, that makes me think about twice. Aerith in the OG had no clue about Cloud's true feelings; Aerith in Remake becomes aware of them rather quickly. Knowing that Cloud loves another girl, however, will not prevent her from falling for him. And as long as he does not remember his memories and where his heart is, she can't do anything about Cloud becoming closer to her. This is why I say there will be more clerith in the next game. However, knowing those feelings will certainly add some "resistance" from her; when you know a guy is all about your best friend, do you want to entangle your heart there? I think it's why she is so clear in her scene in ch14 with Cloud, it's because it's difficult for her, to be this attracted to him - also because he has some Zack characteristics - and he makes her happy, but she knows it's all fake. It must be heartbreaking for her, when you think about it. I think also it's why there are so many zerith shippers out there who wish that Zack and Aerith could reunite; it's because they want Aerith to be truly happy, and I can understand this feeling.

I'm not seeing the heartbreaking, at least as far as Cloud is concerned. I don't think Aerith in the Remake cares at all that Cloud wants to be with Tifa. Remake-Aerith doesn't come off jealous at all, was my point. Judging by her smile at the flower on the counter, and her general attitude towards Cloud and Tifa, I think she wants them together. Or at least that's what many have speculated.

The relationship between Cloud and Aerith is so exaggerated in OaWtaS, and this is Nojima's fault, but it doesn't translate into the Remake. The developers are deliberately making Aerith out to be pro-Cloti, so it seems, which completely contradicts what Nojima wrote about Aerith in OtWtaS.

By the end of Remake, Aerith is still obsessed with Zack.

Yes and no. Ultimately, yes, she becomes a mother figure, with him calling her "mother", but also with her joking with Zack what should they do with such a big baby. However, in the OG, she is romantically interested in him. Lifestream White is very clear about that, that Cloud was her beloved. This is why I feel that her falling for Cloud was part of her arc, at least in the OG. Even in Remake, she is attracted to him, it's clear. So it's very possible that the devs will continue to also expand on this. And I say that as a cloti fan.

But the devs AREN'T expanding on this. They're deliberately diminishing Clerith, at least in part one.

FFVII, and thus, Remake, is the story of Cloud Strife. A lot of people find Sephiroth more interesting than Cloud, but it doesn't change that it's Cloud's story. Aerith may have a very important role, however, she is no hero nor heroine (!!) since Remake (promo and Ultimania) has made abundantly clear that these roles are for Cloud and Tifa to take. I think one of the things that, we'll say, "hurts" clerith, is Aerith's bigger role towards the external plot, because as to balance things out, they had to keep low amount of clerith scenes. In contrast, they upped Tifa's role in the internal struggle, so that mathematically means a lot more cloti scenes - since her role towards the external plot has always been minimal, it was never a problem.

To come back to this protag thing, let's not forget that the protagonist is more interesting to follow if he knows much less than other characters - look at The Lord of the Rings, Frodo knows much much less than Gandalf, yet he is the protag. Also, a lot of people forget it, but at the end of Remake part 1, Aerith *gives back* the lead to Cloud. Tifa asks *her* what to do now, and in turn, Aerith turns to Cloud. This is very significant, in terms of what's to come. The end of chapter 18 had her in the leading role, but it's not a role she seeks for herself.

I'm just relaying my hopes is all. They made Cid temporarily the leader of the group during the OG. I hope Aerith gets her own story told from her perspective.

Yeah I think how the story will turn in the next game will be very interesting to follow. I've already pondered about the GS date earlier in this thread; it is to note that Cloud and Aerith already had their date in part 1, while Cloud and Tifa did not have it yet. This didn't go unnoticed by me, especially since the midnight rendez-vous from chapter 14 is a nod to the GS date system. However, the player has much, much less control of the "romance" side of the game this time around, and clerith scenes are very little in comparison to cloti ones (which is logical given how they expanded the girls' roles). I still think that, the GS date being so iconic, we're bound to see it again. However, if it was a mandatory date with Tifa this time around, I wouldn't be half-surprised either. It all depends on how they go next game, both are possibilities, but I think players are quick to dismiss the possibility of a GS date system while I think it's one of the most obvious things to come ^^'

Personally I'm looking forward the GS because I think it will be more grandiose and at the same time darker than the OG one haha.

They'll probably try to subvert the GS date with Aerith somehow. If the trajectory part one is any indication, clerith-shippers probably won't be pleased if I'm right.

 

[S.L.Kerrigan]

So, if we follow Dave’s advice and let the game do the talking, does the image below mean the same thing to everyone here as it does to me? Because if so, then I think it’s pretty clear where this story is going.

Can someone kindly point me to the moment this shot comes from? I can't seam to retrieve it...

@ Dr Frasier Crane
Can you tell me what the image means to you ?

 

[Dr Frasier Crane]

Can someone kindly point me to the moment this shot comes from? I can't seam to retrieve it...

@ Dr Frasier Crane
Can you tell me what the image means to you ?

The shot is from this sequence at about the 2:00 minute mark: Cloud’s memory of his mother

And you can find my thoughts on what the shot means in this post:

Perhaps I’m reading that shot the wrong way then. Following the memory of Cloud’s mother urging him to meet an older woman, which clearly ties into his present experiences with Aerith, I thought this shot of his eye with these deliberate and impossible lights sparkling in them is intended to subvert the meaning of that memory by visually referencing another character:

Spoiler: Stars

If there’s other theories about the meaning of that shot @Roundhouse, I’d be happy to hear them.

 

[S.L.Kerrigan]

Thank you !

that's an interesting possibility. As there is six stars aligned in circle that kind of match the six-petal flower structure (symbol of reunion) that Cloud gives to Tifa, maybe there is a link here.

But I can't read where the story is going based on that.

 

[Dr Frasier Crane]

Thank you !

that's an interesting possibility. As there is six stars aligned in circle that kind of match the six-petal flower structure (symbol of reunion) that Cloud gives to Tifa, maybe there is a link here.

But I can't read where the story is going based on that.

Thanks for the reply, @S.L.Kerrigan. I have three immediate responses:
1. So you agree that the shot of the eye is referencing Tifa?
2. Wouldn’t the use of stars be a strong enough reference to Tifa alone? (Tifa’s key art, the promise scene, ‘Stargazer Heights’, ‘Starshower’, ‘The Star of Seventh Heaven’, let’s throw in the moon earring too.) I don’t think we need to further combine the meaning of this shot with the flower stuff.
3. If you agree with the previous two points, then I would say that this shot functions as deliberate foreshadowing about the true nature of Cloud’s memories and his connection to Tifa. The reality of that scene is that Cloud is avoiding Tifa during the Nibelhein Incident due to his disappointment at not fulfilling his promise and becoming a SOLDIER. He’s not listening to his mother’s encouragement about meeting an older woman; he’s got a bad case of Tifa brainrot.

 

[S.L.Kerrigan]

I can't really see these lights as stars since their placement is too much structured (circle). Stars are generally scattered randomly in the sky.
So to me this dosen't appear strong enough, but maybe!

What I can read about Tifa with all her references to the cosmos that seem to align with the promise scene is that maybe she set up the stage to ensure Cloud remembers his promise. The name of the motel would be very much in line with this idea, I think it would be too unnatural a coincidence and I don't want to read fan service in the Remake.

Sorry, I know this isn't the right thread to develop this kind of idea. What initially drew me here was @BoxFBall's post about Tifa dressing a bit like Cloud that night.

Thank you for sharing your vision with me.

 

[eleamaya]

Not mine, just sharing this for discussion if you liked.
https://themelodicenigma.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F651650173315039232 I copy-paste what is behind on "Keep Reading" below:

"Unlike the OG, Aerith is presenting the falsity of Cloud not through her own feelings, but that of HIS. She’s not assuming that the mantra of “embracing the moments” is something that Cloud won’t retain—it’s just the romantic feelings that will grow from them. We don’t have to worry about whether what Cloud retains from these moments and memories of Aerith are false. Why? Because that was completely fine in the OG. The moments, memories, and the bond they shared were all real to Cloud after he regains himself. And obviously, not just with Aerith, but with all his companions. If he didn’t retain what he gained while Aerith was alive, he just simply wouldn’t have any reason to value Aerith, it’d almost be like he doesn’t know her existentially at all. But that isn’t the case. Really, what he gained with his companions was never put to the test of falsehood in the first place.

But the romance? So specifically?

The “why” of everything that is said in this scene is done for some narrative purpose, representing future events and themes to be further implemented down the line. In a literal conversation about romantic feelings to be confirmed or denied story-wise—this is romantic storytelling, and whether you like it or not, it has been issued between the two characters. And of course, I believe it should make someone re-evaluate their understanding of the OG—not in the way where the story itself begets change (like that of the effect with CC, as you mentioned), but more so in realizing that the Remake is just a more expressive reflection of the romantic storytelling that was already in the OG. The writing and approach of the Remake is different than that of the OG, as we can even see between the expressions and details expanded on, like say for Cloud and Tifa’s bond and what that alludes to later down the line as well. This same thing is done for Cloud and Aerith, and what may not have been as openly expressed, is now done so too.

In the OG, the romantic storytelling between Cloud and Aerith played on the typical RPG standard of player-story interactive choice, but was contained in that by not having the story clearly address those choices through Cloud’s character after he regains himself. That and all relative materials like interviews or guidebooks relative to the OG—we only have a few direct romanticisms and some that can be argued as indirect given context. It’s not absent, but it’s unclear to the point it’s a discussion people still have 20+ years later. Also, by those possibly confused, player choice does not eliminate this through character representation—I’ll digress as it’s a whole other thing.

Cloud’s time with Aerith isn’t a mystery—we see everything between them and experience it as the player. We know what did or didn’t happen, what could be expressed, and what we’re left with in regards to romanticism is more of an unaddressed, almost irrelevant idea. What’s represented openly instead is everything else about their important bond, basically. Romanticism—it’s all in the air, not invalidated, but also not further represented for the character in the things referenced afterwards, like Cloud mentioning his memories of her, wanting to see her in death [Promised Land], Aerith being a friend, comrade, irreplaceable, etc. His time spent with Aerith was still something Cloud kept with him.

So, if the question for the OG is: did Cloud retain any romanticism for Aerith as a cherished feeling/memory, too?

I believe by right of the storytelling values presented in the game, that yes, he did. While the game and other materials make no attempt at trying to elaborate on Cloud’s favor towards Aerith, they also don’t negate it in void either from his character. A general good rule of thumb: usually when you have romantic meaning issued between two characters, whether through parallels, symbolism, other characters, the characters themselves, etc.—if it’s something that isn’t confirmed (e.g. confessions or explicit showing of romantic interest) OR isn’t countered or denied significantly (obviously not including the typical false denial by a character), then typically, you go with the positive-end that the representation there does indeed confirm that romanticism.

Think about it like this: remember that show you watched where the two lead characters had romantic subtext, but the show ends without them getting together? Yeah. If you’re at the point of claiming romantic subtext, you’re not doing so for the sake of saying the authorial intent is to show non-romance, but to show romanticism in a subtle way. There are a myriad of writers who have this style, and getting a direct confirmation or explicit showing of romance isn’t always in the cards for how that storytelling is going to be expressed. But, that hardly erases what is still intended to be understood.

The thing about Cloud and Aerith, the romanticism that can be understood from Cloud IS indeed never confirmed, not like how it was for Tifa. Which, I do advocate this actually does showcase how his romantic feelings for Tifa have a further depth than of that for Aerith given the lack of relevancy in comparison. However, his feelings for Tifa don’t negate what he felt for Aerith in totality, not to the point of being evidence of absence. The OG and further materials paint the picture that, after Aerith’s death, Cloud still remembers and cherishes her as a comrade—the memories, the moments. All of it. What’s understood is that everything that Aerith was to Cloud was carried over and fueled his reason to want to see her even in death—if romanticism was a part of those memories, those moments, no matter how small in the grand scheme of their connection, we can’t cherry pick it out of existence just because it doesn’t take expressive priority. From the game itself, I would use the “positive-end” method to understand that the romanticism there IS a part of the character, and if I include representations from other media or interviews, the authorial intention becomes much more clear.

As for the depth of these feelings? Again, Cloud’s time with Aerith isn’t a mystery. Whatever happens during that part of the game IS the depth of the feelings. I won’t identify it as a “crush”, but I just know it wasn’t deep enough to cause conflict in his relationship with Tifa because rationally (and by general storytelling standard), it would if so.

In any case, without a specific negative address of that romanticism, we can’t reasonably split apart what Cloud felt for Aerith from everything else he retained from his time spent with her.

And that’s what the Remake is basically addressing, pretty directly this time. I feel that way about a lot of things, and I absolutely believe the story is better of with it as we’re reaching more avenues for telling the FF7 story and development. What we’re getting here is something more direct and expressive than the OG, as I believe we will for most things, like we already have with Clout and Tifa, Tifa and Aerith, and even Zack and Aerith. It’s doing much more. One could say that it might be making more of the romance than it was in the OG, but to me, I believe it’s about the same. The subject matter being brought up directly won’t change that on its own, but it’s curious that it was brought up this way.

So, if the OG didn’t represent the meaning of Aerith being right, that anything of which Cloud has for Aerith was made to be false after he gained his true self, then I don’t believe the Remake has a reason for doing it either. This is reinforced by the fact that Aerith being right just isn’t congruent with a lot of the other themes happening in the story there. It makes no sense to pinpoint the romantic feelings specifically as something Cloud didn’t feel—and again, his feelings for Tifa shouldn’t be it. How they decide to show the “answer” is up for thought as writer’s, as discussed, will find many ways to give meaning from their story. If the writing is consistent, what some CA fans expect won’t be what they will get, but CT fans acting like the meaning from the resolution won’t pop up ever again are already missing the point, too.

There are other interesting things though, like Aerith’s thoughts on death and this lifestyle point of view—how this connects to her hatred of the sky and those she has lost will be an interesting point for her character. Maybe even the anticipated arc of her time in death within the Lifestream and reuniting with Zack. We might finally get solid context for that. As for the black/dark feathers, I’m not sure if it even is, but it would certainly match the motif, like at the very beginning when Cloud is in the reactor. It flying by like that could simply be part of the reference to her death."

 

[Eerie]

I didn't read everything but I'm going to be blunt: Aerith's words reflect the developpers' thoughts about the subject, and they're warning the players about it, this is why Aerith is so blunt - this isn't real, because the feelings he could develop then don't match the feelings the real him have.

A clerith friend told me this: it doesn't matter what feelings Cloud felt for Aerith, because once he remembers, Aerith is already dead, and he remembered his feelings for someone else. His feelings are noteworthy, yes, but they never took off, and in parallel, his feelings for Tifa are long rationalised as "love" - in short Cloud made the conscious choice to chose Tifa (needless to say, my friend ships them in AU, not canon, she doesn't care about the canon romance anyways and says cloti is too perfect lol).

And Aerith knows this, this is why she warns him in her resolution - there's no need to pull such a long article about it. She's herself wary of getting close to him because she knows how much he loves this other girl. And that's something that actually makes a lot of sense; in all honestly, after Remake, if I was clerith, I wouldn't want clerith in canon. Not when Cloud is sooooooooo obviously onto Tifa. I wouldn't want to hurt her like this. This is why I keep saying that clerith works well in AU, not so much in canon.

 

[Reptilianlizardbrain]

I'm going to preface this post by saying I loved Clerith back in the day when I played the OG. I still love Clerith and prefer it over Cloti.

That said, after playing the remake I now believe Cloti to be the intended canon pairing. Although I never bought into this viewpoint back in the OG, the remake has Aerith state rather bluntly to Cloud that any romantic love he may grow to feel for her isn't real (due to the Zack memory/personality mix up). I never interpreted disc 1 Cloud to have literally inherited Zack's feelings for Aerith, but this does seem to be what the remake is suggesting. I suppose it's less messy to explain away Cloud's feelings for Aerith as residual Zack stuff to pave the way for some easy uncomplicated part 2 Zerith and Cloti (Even if I think that decision is lazy and boring).

Furthermore, I believe Aerith in the remake is pushing Cloud and Tifa together. I believe she hoped that the flower Cloud bought from her would end up as a gift for Tifa, as evidenced by her happy smile when seeing it in Tifa's bar. Another example being the time when Aerith encouraged Tifa to follow her heart and go help Cloud with that whole Rufus rooftop situation.

I guess I'm just disappointed the Clerith is so clearly getting scrapped. As a child I enjoyed their playful banter, and as an adult I enjoyed how FF7 seemed to be acknowledging that you can love more than one person. Sometimes people you love die, and it sucks, but you don't lose your ability to love with them. Just because Aerith loved and lost Zack doesn't mean she can't also love Cloud, the same as how Cloud's love for Aerith doesn't diminish his love for Tifa. Hope this was on topic enough but I felt I needed to get that off my chest.

 

[Maidenofwar]

From another point of view I don't think the remake is literally suggesting Cloud inherited feelings from Zack anymore than I think Cloud mimicking Zack when he gives Tifa the flower is seriously Zifa. I still think Cloud's feelings are his own and the depth of his bond with Aerith will continue to be explored in the remake. Of course not just her but Tifa and Zack as well. To me they are some of the most important people in his life and I think the remake as a whole will reflect that.

Spoiler

If I don't get my Clerith angst I will riot

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

@ Reptilianlizardbrain: Don't forget, this time around Aerith has knowledge of many things that she didn't have the first time they went through these experiences. The canon of this game doesn't replace whatever happened (or didn't happen) during the OG.

 

[frosty]

As a child I enjoyed their playful banter, and as an adult I enjoyed how FF7 seemed to be acknowledging that you can love more than one person. Sometimes people you love die, and it sucks, but you don't lose your ability to love with them. Just because Aerith loved and lost Zack doesn't mean she can't also love Cloud, the same as how Cloud's love for Aerith doesn't diminish his love for Tifa.

Funnily enough, I'm more open for this interpretation for the Remake. In the OG, I would argue that everything pre-Lifestream event Cloud was "fake". There was a clear, and distinct line to me that there were two Clouds, and only Real Cloud's feelings and experiences should be taken into consideration, and hence Real Cloud's affections lay with Tifa.

But in the remake, I feel that the lines of fake Cloud / true Cloud are blurred and everything he experiences as pre-Lifestream event Cloud are still incredibly valid. For an illustration, say, you're incredibly angry at someone who stole a prized possession of yours, and later find out that this is untrue - he didn't take your stuff. The truth doesn't cancel out the fact that you might have felt intense rage directed at that person at that point of time when your stuff was gone.

Similar to Cloud, I accept the interpretation that he could have developed and experienced feelings for Aerith, operating on false memories or stories from Zack. And the fact that his memories were false doesn't make the feeling any less valid, even after he regained himself. To invalidate that would also invalidate the whole spectrum of feelings he had as pre-Lifestream "False" Cloud that lends to his character growth - sadness for Jessie / Bigg's death, compassion for Wedge, growing feelings of comradeship with Barret etc. etc.

That being said, what constitutes as canon feelings can still be up for discussion and Cleriths can always enjoy it.
Canon outcome for Remake (for me) is clear, ever since SE decided Cloud's resolution in the compilation is to move forward with his kids and Tifa

 

[Eerie]

That said, after playing the remake I now believe Cloti to be the intended canon pairing. Although I never bought into this viewpoint back in the OG, the remake has Aerith state rather bluntly to Cloud that any romantic love he may grow to feel for her isn't real (due to the Zack memory/personality mix up). I never interpreted disc 1 Cloud to have literally inherited Zack's feelings for Aerith, but this does seem to be what the remake is suggesting. I suppose it's less messy to explain away Cloud's feelings for Aerith as residual Zack stuff to pave the way for some easy uncomplicated part 2 Zerith and Cloti (Even if I think that decision is lazy and boring).

While I do agree with your conclusion that cloti is canon, I do not agree with Cloud being attracted to Aerith is due to Zack. While it is true that Zack colours a *lot* of their moments, I rather think that it's because this is what Aerith wanted to do with Zack when they'd get reunited. If you think about it, Cloud is at first very wary of Aerith that he deems as a suspicious woman when they meet in chapter 2, then he forgets about her before meeting with her again in chapter 8. This does not sound to me how Zack, who was madly in love with her, would react.

Aerith in this opus knows much more (as to counter Sephiroth who also knows much more, plus a new brand of Sephiroth who's we don't know who yet but who tries to manipulate Cloud just as the same as our old baddy), but her resolution scene is also reminiscent to what she told Cloud in their GS date in the OG: that he was not himself, and she wished to meet him. Except this time, she's warning him *and herself* to not fall to such trap because Cloud is literally not himself. Especially we know that around her, it's his fake persona that takes the lead - aka, the SOLDIER, heroic self, or how he imagines it to be anyway. The real Cloud who is locked away still has his own feelings, as I mentioned earlier, and she knows that the real Cloud is already in love with another girl. So whatever this Cloud feels, whenever he will be himself again, he will not be all drama queen about who he loves, because that answer is clear to him. Which means the feelings he may or may not develop right now are not real, but it's not because they're pushed by Zack, it's because his real feelings are locked away.

Furthermore, I believe Aerith in the remake is pushing Cloud and Tifa together. I believe she hoped that the flower Cloud bought from her would end up as a gift for Tifa, as evidenced by her happy smile when seeing it in Tifa's bar. Another example being the time when Aerith encouraged Tifa to follow her heart and go help Cloud with that whole Rufus rooftop situation.

I've seen a lot of people claim that Aerith is pushing Cloud and Tifa together, but I am still doubtful. I think that she aknowledges their bond, and definitely has a clue about their true feelings (the flower scene in the bar served that purpose), and that's also the reason behind what she told Cloud in her resolution.

Also, I have already said it, but clerith is a fine pairing and there's nothing wrong to ship them. But in canon, you have a lot of limitations due to Cloud and her interacting so little time, and due to Cloud being really messed up, so that's why I think it works better in AU.

But in the remake, I feel that the lines of fake Cloud / true Cloud are blurred and everything he experiences as pre-Lifestream event Cloud are still incredibly valid.

I want to say that it is very true, in the OG it was clear that Cloud had 2 very different personalities. But the Remake format makes this impossible to be - that, and Zack being a defined character too, with BC and CC released in between. To explain it, I thought that Cloud was a jerk in the OG until the Northern Crater scene, and I did not understand why both Aerith and Tifa were after him. But that's because the Lifestream scene completely redefines who Cloud Strife is, in the same game, and you can see that after all, he is a really good character.

Remake will take place in several parts. With several years of development in between. This means that they absolutely cannot have Cloud walking and being a jerk to about everybody (but Tifa) and imprinting this fake Cloud into the minds of new players. New players need to understand that Cloud is not an arsehole, and that's part of why I say that the devs use other tricks than the ones they used in the OG, why they want everyone to play the OG... it's because, they want us to care about Aerith and know is we can save her rather than present her as the love interest, that's because we must know the importance of Tifa (she was kind of hidden in the OG until the Lifestream scene) so they can show her and Cloud bonding, so that the Lifestream scene will hit with "of course yessssss". That's so they can have everyone's characters expanded and shining through. That's also why Cloud's real personality shows up around Tifa, so we can see who he truly is, and so their bond can be build on the "real Cloud".

But what this Cloud is feeling, is definitely true. Even in the OG, I'd argue that his feelings were true. He cared for Aerith, and he still cared about her after the Lifestream scene. The bonds that Cloud make in both the OG and FFVII are very precious to him; we are talking about a character who's not really good at socialising, who doesn't have many friends, who is shy and feels inadequate. So to him, everything is very precious. Romance or not.

 

[KindOfBlue]

inb4 overanalyzing of ff7r intermission for “evidence”

…oh wait that’s Twitter, you guys are cool

 

[eleamaya]

this is me overanalyzing

sky is zack
water is aerith
cloud is cloud

those combinations are RAIN

 

[Clear A]

Cloud was never under the allusion that he was Zack, as a matter of fact Cloud has been Cloud his true self the whole time. Zack and Cloud act different, and so therefore are two completely different individuals. So to get mixed up with Zack and Cloud is your own doing not the OG. Cloud only got his memories in a blunder because of Mako poisoning and confusion. That is where Tifa comes along to mend Cloud's memories in the lifestream scene. It is Cloud's memories that has been muddled. But to say that Cloud has been Zack and that his personalities and feelings are Zack is just ridiculous assumption and not true.

No. Cloud and Tifa did not "hook up" in FFVII nor during AC so that is over. They are still friends fighting along side, notice I said friends because that is what they are (AVALANCHE). As far as what Aerith is to Cloud I personally see something more than "friendship" even Tifa asked "is there something going on between you two" in FFVII remake. So maybe we will see "something" developing. But truly not much has been confirmed as the to who Cloud's love interest is, just mere speculation at best.

Well FFVII remake: Intergrade is out as DLC. And I have to say we're getting there for Part 2.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Cloud was never under the elusion that he was Zack, as a matter of fact Cloud has been Cloud his true self the whole time. Zack and Cloud act different, and so therefore are two completely different individuals. So to get mixed up with Zack and Cloud is your own doing not the OG. Cloud only got his memories in a blunder because of Mako poisoning and confusion. That is where Tifa comes along to mend Cloud's memories in the lifestream scene. It is Cloud's memories that has been muddled. But to say that Cloud has been Zack and that his personalities and feelings are Zack is just ridiculous assumption and not true.

No. Cloud and Tifa did not "hook up" in FFVII nor during AC so that is over. They are still friends fighting along side, notice I said friends because that is what they are (AVALANCHE). As far as what Aerith is to Cloud I personally see something more than "friendship" even Tifa asked "is there something going on between you two" in FFVII remake. So maybe we will see "something" developing. But truly not much has been confirmed as the to who Cloud's love interest is, just mere speculation at best.

Well FFVII remake: Intergrade is out as DLC. And I have to say we're getting there for Part 2.

Not just the mako poisoning though, there’s also Jenova manipulating what he remembers and how he remembers it. I never really bought into the idea that Zack is in Cloud, but he’s definitely not his “true self” until his memories and personality are no longer suppressed by Jenova.

Whether Cloud and Tifa actually hook up or not has always been kind of irrelevant to me, but the Lifestream scene is described as the moment their romantic feelings are revealed so even if they really are just friends, as in not in an official relationship, they do like each other.

As for Aerith, her and Cloud do have the seeds of a romance but unfortunately circumstance keeps that it from actually taking off. That’s kind of the whole point of her dying in the OG. Of course, it’s anybody’s guess as to what Remake does but based on the devs’ words in the past, Aerith and Tifa were made as dual-love interests. Both romances have their purposes in the story but both ultimately go in different directions

 

[a_apple 2.0]

Cloud was never under the elusion that he was Zack, as a matter of fact Cloud has been Cloud his true self the whole time. Zack and Cloud act different, and so therefore are two completely different individuals. So to get mixed up with Zack and Cloud is your own doing not the OG. Cloud only got his memories in a blunder because of Mako poisoning and confusion. That is where Tifa comes along to mend Cloud's memories in the lifestream scene. It is Cloud's memories that has been muddled. But to say that Cloud has been Zack and that his personalities and feelings are Zack is just ridiculous assumption and not true.

No. Cloud and Tifa did not "hook up" in FFVII nor during AC so that is over. They are still friends fighting along side, notice I said friends because that is what they are (AVALANCHE). As far as what Aerith is to Cloud I personally see something more than "friendship" even Tifa asked "is there something going on between you two" in FFVII remake. So maybe we will see "something" developing. But truly not much has been confirmed as the to who Cloud's love interest is, just mere speculation at best.

Well FFVII remake: Intergrade is out as DLC. And I have to say we're getting there for Part 2.

I think the only debate that is up in the air is "With who would Cloud have ended up if Aerith didn't bite the dust?" but regardless of that, Cloud and Tifa 100% hook up at the end of the game, I think at this point it's just silly to deny that, that goes in the same direction as denying the fact that Cloud is obviously attracted to both girls.

 

[frosty]

inb4 overanalyzing of ff7r intermission for “evidence”

…oh wait that’s Twitter, you guys are cool

IKR. I ventured into Twitter because I don't have a PS5 and wanted to be updated on Intergrade / Intermission but man. Just. man. A lot of people there seem to just live off a steady diet of fanart, fanfic and screenshots with zero context.

As far as what Aerith is to Cloud I personally see something more than "friendship" even Tifa asked "is there something going on between you two" in FFVII remake. So maybe we will see "something" developing. But truly not much has been confirmed as the to who Cloud's love interest is, just mere speculation at best.

If you're going by: Girl A asked Cloud what his relationship status with Girl B is, therefore it must be indicative of Cloud's feelings for Girl B. Then you have to take into consideration Jessie also asks Cloud about Tifa, and Aerith also asks about Tifa. And in all situations, where he has to explain his relationship with any woman, he just hems and haws. It doesn't say much at all about Cloud's stand on the matter.

Everyone should just listen to Marle. She literally says Cloud is emotionally unavailable and she's absolutely right lol.

 

[Clear A]

If you're going by: Girl A asked Cloud what his relationship status with Girl B is, therefore it must be indicative of Cloud's feelings for Girl B. Then you have to take into consideration Jessie also asks Cloud about Tifa, and Aerith also asks about Tifa. And in all situations, where he has to explain his relationship with any woman, he just hems and haws. It doesn't say much at all about Cloud's stand on the matter.

Everyone should just listen to Marle. She literally says Cloud is emotionally unavailable and she's absolutely right lol.

Good point, but we have to mention that when Aerith asked Cloud is "Tifa like your girlfriend, I'm sure she is someone special" Cloud basically denied it and said "It's not like that, Tifa and I are...." so whatever Cloud would have said after that would have given anyone a clue as to how Cloud felt. He literally denied the question of whether he and Tifa were an item. Yes Cloud is having flashbacks about his childhood friend but it doesn't go on much further. His memory is being fumbled with by Mako poisoning or Jenova cells. So to say they meaning Cloud and Tifa are an item or a pair has been denied by Cloud himself in FFVII remake.

 

[Clear A]

Actually he denies Aerith's questions about Tifa being something more twice. And then Cloud goes on to explain, "More like, I don't know how to explain it." Instead Cloud should not have said no but "...." a more mysterious response. If you don't believe me watch.

 

[Clear A]

I am not saying Cloud did not have anything more with Tifa, in fact maybe I am saying he did not have anything but friendship with Tifa. It has been confirmed by Cloud's words as he denied those questions. But when Tifa asked Cloud "You sure there isn't something going on between you two" Cloud says "I saved her, she saved me, round and round it goes." He does not deny anything being more with Aerith yet. So it is really up to the player and the viewers to make do with what has been played out. I'm not denying anything Cloud had with Tifa is something more, but Cloud denied it himself. It really just depends on you, Cloud's words not any option of the choice of the players here.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

Good point, but we have to mention that when Aerith asked Cloud is "Tifa like your girlfriend, I'm sure she is someone special" Cloud basically denied it and said "It's not like that, Tifa and I are...." so whatever Cloud would have said after that would have given anyone a clue as to how Cloud felt. He literally denied the question of whether he and Tifa were an item. Yes Cloud is having flashbacks about his childhood friend but it doesn't go on much further. His memory is being fumbled with by Mako poisoning or Jenova cells. So to say they meaning Cloud and Tifa are an item or a pair has been denied by Cloud himself in FFVII remake.

You have to look at the context of the scene. Because it actually shows us that Tifa is indeed more than a friend to Cloud. Aerith hears him say Tifas name in such a way that she immediately assumes that there might be something more going on between them, so she asks if this Tifa girl is his gf which Cloud obviously denies, when pressed on the matter he says he can't explain it, which already tells you that that there are feelings involved since if the purpose of the scene was to convey that Tifa is nothing more but a friend to him than it would be the perfect moment to have Cloud tell Aerith that she is his good ol' childhood friend, but having him answer with "I can't explain what she is to me" conveys towards the audience there is something more between them.