SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[pigglesthepup]

That's literally not how it happened though. No conscious thought or intentionality went into him calling himself a SOLDIER. He is akin to a mako poisoned vegetable, and is puppeted to create that persona by Jenova cells.

So there was no consideration towards "getting work" in saying he was a SOLDIER to Tifa or other people. Are you not reading the explanations given to you..?

I'm going by the explanation given to me by Cloud himself within the game. If that's not where I should be looking for an answer, then what is your point about him not being a liar?

Well you're completely wrong. It being "important to him" does not indicate that he would lie about it, as shown in Crisis Core.

In Crisis Core he has a way to avoid the whole issue by keeping his identity concealed. That's all he has to do and it's all he does. He's totally exposed at the train station. He needs an explanation for the state he's in. More on Crisis Core: as he's dying, Zack entrusts the Buster Sword to Cloud and deems him his "living legacy," which Cloud goes and tries to carry out. Was that all just Jenovaroth? Did Cloud have no agency in that?

Plenty of individuals hold goals or promises central to their growth, but don't boldly lie to others when they fall short. Not seeing how you don't understand his feelings of guilt and shame at the truth being unfolded like it was within the story. He can be aware of the truth yet still hold himself to account over being weak.

I think I totally understand his feeling of guild and shame, seeing as I've explained why he would lie about it. Deceit is only fun for a psychopath, which Cloud is not. Yes, he admits to being a liar to hold himself accountable (because he did lie). But if he didn't actually lie, then he is now lying if he says that he did lie. And if he's lying because Jenovaroth is still in control of him and making him lie, then the player shouldn't be able to beat the game after this. So, again, where does this end?

"Get lost in the whole thing... The combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will, and my own weakness"

He's an abuse victim. Abuse victims can't escape their abuser because they justify the abuse. This is why it's a combination and he includes himself in the equation. He was initially getting something out of this. He was not aware of the greater consequences.

I simply don't get why you can't separate the guilt and self deprecation in his words from the reality of the narrative. Cloud had no choice in the matter.

In the script of the game that you pulled and put in quote boxes, he uses the word "I." Straight, declarative sentences saying he did such and such actions. They are things that are done over a series of time in a cumulative manner. He does not end this with "Jenovaroth made me do all these things," but the above statement including himself in the equation. He's admitting to being complicit in the deed. That is the narrative. Does he feel bad about it? Of course.

Unless you think he wanted to give the Black Materia to Sephiroth, or nearly chop Aerith's head off deep down in his heart.

This is not what I've suggested at all. I see it as you trying to be malicious towards me. I'm going to excuse it.

You're taking what he says to the party about his own personal hang ups and perspective as rote fact. When you have the text itself, Lifestream sequence flashbacks of the truth and the hidden cutscene of Zack and Cloud's experimentation and escape within the Shinra Manor, telling you otherwise.

Yes, I am taking what he says as rote fact. What is shown in those sequences illustrates the reasons why he did what he says he did: lie. Or he somehow still being deceptive? What is the whole point of this sequence and why can I still beat the game after it?

Again.

From Cloud's FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Profile

I'll give you this one time with a secondary source: we frequently see Cloud trying to fight back against being manipulated. It's illustrated in the form of ghosted versions of him or even a separate child being. These are the multiple personalities. But the real Cloud is still one of them. He's still there and we see him fight for control. But he's still in there, and he's the one we supposedly getting back through the Lifestream sequence and giving the confession on the bridge. I'm going to believe him as to what happened. After all, he had a front row seat.

Unless you're willing to argue Cloud was responsible for letting Aerith die, he simply was not.

You're equating lying with malice, which I've repeatedly said I'm not. Again, I'll let this go as a personal attack.

There was no "making the best of things" as repeatedly showcased by the text and supplemental materials of said text. You are again attributing intentionality where none existed.

I'm attributing what he said to the truths that were revealed. If he's not lying or doing something else besides telling the truth in his confession on the bridge, then that's what I should do.

The context of the game's entire narrative is reinforced by said text written by the authors themselves. I'm not going to argue reality of what's the story and the canon that supports it. That's been done before for years. If you don't want to agree with it and ignore the narrative all while riding on a rushed localized script job, that's your own, frankly silly, prerogative. But that's the understanding the fandom, the writers, and everyone else following the narrative goes by. If you want to craft your own headcannon and play in it, thats for you to do on your own.

The original FF7 was released was intended as a complete product. I'm giving the people of the former Squaresoft the benefit of the doubt that they knew what they were doing and made their product complete, ensuring what they wanted to convey would get across to the player by having them just play the game. That's particularly critical for an overseas audience, who they were really looking to impress and came up with a huge marketing budgeting for.

I personally find your attitude snobby and elitist. Anyone should be able to pick up a piece of work, read it and make sense of it without having to devote chunks of life to supplementary materials. If that's not true, then the artist has failed, Japan or anywhere else. How is someone suppose to get into an anime if when upon first viewing, if it makes little sense? That's just illogical, no matter which culture you come from. Squaresoft wanted to go very big with this game internationally. It had to be a complete product. I'm assuming that it is. Bad localization in parts, but can still make out what it's trying to say. Having to use supplementary materials closes off new comers and has the terrible effect of making the fandom insular. It's a bad business practice.

Just to come back on this, this is clearly Jenova manipulating his memories because in Intermission they have inserted a green flash before the memory. So, he tries to remember and to cover up and push in the illusion of being a successful SOLDIER, Jenova inserts what is Cloud's deepest wish, to render the illusion of his fake persona perfect.

Post it. I'll look at it tomorrow. Sorry it's time for bed.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm going by the explanation given to me by Cloud himself within the game. If that's not where I should be looking for an answer, then what is your point about him not being a liar?

So you're purposefully being obtuse? Because it's been given to you and you're apparently choosing not to read it.

In Crisis Core he has a way to avoid the whole issue by keeping his identity concealed. That's all he has to do and it's all he does. He's totally exposed at the train station. He needs an explanation for the state he's in. More on Crisis Core: as he's dying, Zack entrusts the Buster Sword to Cloud and deems him his "living legacy," which Cloud goes and tries to carry out. Was that all just Jenovaroth? Did Cloud have no agency in that?

The explanation is provided. You're the one choosing to ignore it.

Cloud having the briefest moments of lucidity at his friend's death doesn't change his fractured and mako poisoned state. Mako poisoned people have moments of clarity that are fleeting, as shown in FFVII itself and novellas such as "Picturing the Past." Cloud's mental state isn't his own.

I think I totally understand his feeling of guild and shame, seeing as I've explained why he would lie about it. Deceit is only fun for a psychopath, which Cloud is not. Yes, he admits to being a liar to hold himself accountable (because he did lie). But if he didn't actually lie, then he is now lying if he says that he did lie. And if he's lying because Jenovaroth is still in control of him and making him lie, then the player shouldn't be able to beat the game after this. So, again, where does this end?

At this point, you're understanding your own headcanon.

The concept of self imposed guilt is not a complicated subject which I'm sure you have the ability to understand and it's central to Advent Children as well. Cloud feeling guilty and carrying it with him is nothing new. A character's dialogue in the text can be at odds with the narrative circumstance. I don't know what to tell you if you can't understand plotting such as this.

He's an abuse victim. Abuse victims can't escape their abuser because they justify the abuse. This is why it's a combination and he includes himself in the equation. He was initially getting something out of this. He was not aware of the greater consequences.

More like a parasitized victim of alien cells that hijacked his consciousness and made him a puppet to an alien-human hybrid with telepathic mind control powers. What he "got out of it" was simply an illusion based on his subconscious, meant to allow him to be a puppet to follow Sephiroth's will all while blissfully unaware. No, he didn't "get anything out of it." Stop mischaracterizing the character, please.

In the script of the game that you pulled and put in quote boxes, he uses the word "I." Straight, declarative sentences saying he did such and such actions. They are things that are done over a series of time in a cumulative manner. He does not end this with "Jenovaroth made me do all these things," but the above statement including himself in the equation. He's admitting to being complicit in the deed. That is the narrative. Does he feel bad about it? Of course.

The entire crux of the story of FFVII is its unreliable narrator, Cloud Strife.

The fact that you cling to this unreliable narration of his personal history that reflects Cloud's most blatant self deprecating characterization is laughable. Treating this as straight gospel when everything inside and outside the story is telling you otherwise is... Something else. No, he's not going to just outright say Sephiroth made him do everything because he's a person who hates his weakness and is ashamed of what happened. It's a confession. Keep up with the framing of the story. The narrative features an unreliable narrator.

This is not what I've suggested at all. I see it as you trying to be malicious towards me. I'm going to excuse it.

But it's consistent with you taking Cloud's unreliable and deeply biased perspective towards his own weakness as truth. So you probably should rethink it.

Yes, I am taking what he says as rote fact. What is shown in those sequences illustrates the reasons why he did what he says he did: lie. Or he somehow still being deceptive? What is the whole point of this sequence and why can I still beat the game after it?

Taking what he says as fact misses the entire point and perspective of what happened to Cloud within the context of the story. Taking an unreliable narrator's narration of the story, that's clearly skewed by his own self deprecation, is silly. You're either being purposefully difficult in interpreting a basic principle of self-guilt or this game is too complicated for you. I think its the former, rather than the latter, honestly.

The whole point of the sequence is to listen to Cloud give exposition on his own experience of having someone piece back together his personality, colored by his guilt, honesty and self deprecation. It's not indecipherable. You can 'beat the game" because he's now himself and free of Sephiroth's influence thanks to Tifa piecing his ego together.

I'll give you this one time with a secondary source: we frequently see Cloud trying to fight back against being manipulated. It's illustrated in the form of ghosted versions of him or even a separate child being. These are the multiple personalities. But the real Cloud is still one of them. He's still there and we see him fight for control. But he's still in there, and he's the one we supposedly getting back through the Lifestream sequence and giving the confession on the bridge. I'm going to believe him as to what happened. After all, he had a front row seat.

Believing the unreliable narration...

So I guess you believe he was an ex-SOLDIER too?

I ask because you clearly seem capable of critically dissecting the truth and context within the story when it comes to Cloud's previous unreliable narration, yet seem completely incapable of it now... When it's obvious his explanation of his experience is clearly tinged with self deprecation and shame over succumbing to this mental control.

This is why what you're saying sounds so ridiculous, especially when the text itself is telling you otherwise. Believe the man with a guilt complex who clearly feels at fault because he was the one who experienced the mind controlling experimentation... That's sensical in what world, again?

You're equating lying with malice, which I've repeatedly said I'm not. Again, I'll let this go as a personal attack.

This isn't even about "lying and malice," this is you fundamentally refusing to accept a basic tenet of the storyline.

I'm attributing what he said to the truths that were revealed. If he's not lying or doing something else besides telling the truth in his confession on the bridge, then that's what I should do.

And ignoring everything else that says otherwise.

The original FF7 was released was intended as a complete product. I'm giving the people of the former Squaresoft the benefit of the doubt that they knew what they were doing and made their product complete, ensuring what they wanted to convey would get across to the player by having them just play the game. That's particularly critical for an overseas audience, who they were really looking to impress and came up with a huge marketing budgeting for.

I personally find your attitude snobby and elitist. Anyone should be able to pick up a piece of work, read it and make sense of it without having to devote chunks of life to supplementary materials. If that's not true, then the artist has failed, Japan or anywhere else. How is someone suppose to get into an anime if when upon first viewing, if it makes little sense? That's just illogical, no matter which culture you come from. Squaresoft wanted to go very big with this game internationally. It had to be a complete product. I'm assuming that it is. Bad localization in parts, but can still make out what it's trying to say. Having to use supplementary materials closes off new comers and has the terrible effect of making the fandom insular. It's a bad business practice.

It was released properly in Japanese, transliterated and localized poorly in multiple languages across the globe, released with bugs everywhere, and then formerly re-released with a slightly improved script and recontexualized with numerous additional short stories, guidebooks, sequels, prequels and now a Remake... All done by the creators of the original. Why? Because its popular and needed clarification.

And this is not even new or unique to Final Fantasy. For someone who just referenced anime, you sound woefully naïve and completely inexperienced in the medium. How is someone supposed to get into an anime if upon first viewing it doesnt make sense? Have you not even watched Evangelion??? You rewatch it, rewatch it again, and look for what's out there. You don't just ignore everything past the first work.

Your willful ignorance doesn't change the nature of the narrative as it was originally depicted in its source language depiction, intention, and overarching narrative canon. If you want to rigidly cling to your own headcanon because you have some "first!" mentality to media, that's on you. Other people have adapted. They are enjoying and discussing the work as the properly contextualized narrative that fits within its respective series. Find it snobby, elitist, or whatever justification and pejorative you wish, but that's simply not how most people who follow this FF series have operated or will operate. You can get with and adapt to the new information present or be in a bubble of misinformation. It's ultimately your choice.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

This is really a question for a new thread, but...

This begs the question of what can be deemed canon and what can't. Obviously the direct statements made in the Ultimanias are canon. But what about more obscure or ambiguous stuff? For example, the artists who designed the BC Turks gave them names, but those names didn't make their way into the final game; the decision was taken to let the player choose his or her own names for these Turks, and so they were given "starter" code names that referred to their weapons. When the original character designs were published, the artist's names became known. So are those artists' names the canon names for the BC Turks, or are their weapon names canon, or is it canon that you name them yourself?

Or ideas that were formative in shaping the game, but ultimately omitted from the final product, or replaced by something similar yet different. Are they canon too?

And who decides?

New thread?

Our holy work

 

[Makoeyes987]

This is really a question for a new thread, but...

This begs the question of what can be deemed canon and what can't. Obviously the direct statements made in the Ultimanias are canon. But what about more obscure or ambiguous stuff? For example, the artists who designed the BC Turks gave them names, but those names didn't make their way into the final game; the decision was taken to let the player choose his or her own names for these Turks, and so they were given "starter" code names that referred to their weapons. When the original character designs were published, the artist's names became known. So are those artists' names the canon names for the BC Turks, or are their weapon names canon, or is it canon that you name them yourself?

Or ideas that were formative in shaping the game, but ultimately omitted from the final product, or replaced by something similar yet different. Are they canon too?

And who decides?

New thread?

Our holy work

To answer your question, what's usually established as canon, at least in regards to FF and FFVII, is what the creators acknowledge and include within their series. The Compilation of FFVII is the official works of the FFVII series as crafted by the authors. No, the Last Order artist names for the BC Turks are more than likely not canon unless... Well, the writers decide to use it in something, like the Remake. Anything not done by the writers, Nomura, Kitase, Nojima, and Toriyama or not included in the "FFVII Series", is not canon.

Also, certain inconsistencies or past depictions are not canon. Last Order isn't canon in its depiction of events of the Nibelheim Incident because it runs contrary to what we see in things like Crisis Core and FFVII.

For Final Fantasy, basically what the writers choose to include in their stories, what's considered "Word of God" canon via what's official and published, and finally what's the recent most "current" depiction of relevant events.

 

[null]

Good night pigglesthepup. Didn't mean to throw gas on the grill; please don't go back to lurking.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I don't think all the canon information is included on this website. I've been looking for stuff on Lucrecia and not finding it.
I think it would be fair to reference only what's available on this website, and if someone has reference material that isn't available on this website, they should make it so.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I don't think all the canon information is included on this website. I've been looking for stuff on Lucrecia and not finding it.

Not sure what you're looking for, but Lucrecia already suffers from having very little about her given her tertiary status. Aside from FFVII, there's Dirge of Cerberus, and then that's it.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I notice people tend to apply real-world psychology to analyzing Cloud’s character, which isn’t bad in itself seeing as he was made by real people and applying real-world concepts to fiction helps the audience relate to the material buuuuuuuuut…we still can’t forget this is a story with a villain with supernatural abilities to possess and manipulate the mind, create illusions, mimic other people etc. so some of the variables here are going to be outside of real-world conditions lol

Why the confession of being complicit in this? Why did the writers put it in there as his coming clean speech?

That’s just what Cloud does, his inferiority complex causes him to blame himself for things that are ultimately not his fault (namely Tifa almost dying twice, and of course, the deaths of Aerith and Zack)

Because his self-confidence is too low to stop them. He has a weak sense of self, not in the "I don't remember" type of way, but in the way a victim of psychopath does: he could not reaffirm himself to break out on his own. Jenovaroth is a psychopath. This is a real thing in psychology; it's why abuse victims don't just run away from their abusers. He was easy prey, and that's why he wasn't able to stand up to make SOLDIER because he wouldn't have been able to stand up to that. Edit: Abuse victims justify their abuse. It’s why they stay.

It’s gonna be hard to equate Cloud’s situation to real life once you get into the specific causes of his condition, namely Jenova, so you’re right about him being an easy target but the actual act of creating a false persona was not something he did on his own without being influenced by outside supernatural forces, which he very explicitly explained himself…maybe subconsciously he wanted to be something he wasn’t and Jenova was able to draw from that desire, but in this case he actually believed the lie because Jenova made him remember things falsely and as you later acknowledge yourself, Cloud’s true persona does actively try to resurface but cannot (which is why another outside influence, this time Tifa, is needed to help put the pieces of himself back together)

This used to be true, I agree. But nowadays, you can find all the resources for free online. If you don't know where, you just have to ask. When someone brings these materials, you can't say that it's not canon, that it doesn't make sense, etc. They are proofs just as the game is. I have revised several times what I thought about the OG and the characters, notably, because of these, and it's ok because it's how the information they deliver should be treated; they give you a new angle, a tool to understand the message.

Which goes back to my earlier point about how the fanbase would be better off if more shippers were as reasonable as you, because the inability to do exactly what you described is what keeps this ungodly monster of a shipping war alive lol…that said though, I don’t know if general audiences are going to know to actually go out their way to look up supplementary materials if they feel they’ve at least gotten the basic gist of the story

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Obsidian was citing a variety of sources, but they're not on this website in the DoC section. Pretty much everything that section has to say about Lucrecia relates to her crystal.

 

[GuardBreak]

This talk about the Ultimania and what is canon has suddenly reminded me of this incredible tweet

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1289640295659982849

 

[Odysseus]

I know the actual context of that quote is referring to when he jokes about Aerith supposedly being cutout for SOLDIER on the rooftops, but it was always bullshit that that was the only time he laughed. There are several others, less silly than that beach scene lol.

 

[pigglesthepup]

@Makoeyes987

I get a strong impression that you seem to think I'm trying to imply Cloud actively plotted with Sephiroth to kill Aerith and end the world. Like they're off playing catch with the Black Materia while laughing manically or something. And maybe I'm being obtuse because the explanation you're giving me doesn't account for everything that's going on. To you it does, and as I told you, I saw it as making sense before but now I don't because in the Remake, Cloud is remembering things he technically shouldn't. My perspective was challenged, so I went the to the OG to understand why. This quote here is what really nailed it for me:

I'm Cloud...the master of my own illusionary world. But I can't remain trapped in an illusion anymore. I'm going to live my life without pretending.

Master is a loaded word here because Cloud is referred to as Jenova and Sephiroth's puppet. He is saying that he himself has pulled some strings. He follows it up that he can't remained trapped in the illusion anymore because of what it has caused. He ends saying he is going to live truthfully in the future, implying that he was not doing so in the past. Because he's now going to be honest, this is where the unreliable narration ends. He is changing his behavior because he is undergoing character growth.

This isn't about him just blaming himself and feeling bad. Cloud is an active character in this story. He is not just another NPC or plot device. He is not a passive receptacle for everything. He says cloning Sephiroth is the same procedure they use for SOLDIER. Why didn't this happen to Zack? Because Zack and Cloud are different people. All the other clones had their minds shattered, but they're still vegetables. The one in the Sector 5 pipe is around people, but still a vegetable. Why isn't this story about him? Why is this story about Cloud? To be the main protagonist, he has to not only have wants, but take actions to pursue them. He has to actually be doing something himself. And then he has to learn from it in order to grow.

What's the variable between Cloud and the other clones? Cloud himself. Jenovaroth could have fed the same BS to the other clones and made them do the same thing, too. But that's not the story. The story is about Cloud.

I'm done discussing this subject with you because I find you very condescending. I prefer to continue enjoying this series.

I notice people tend to apply real-world psychology to analyzing Cloud’s character, which isn’t bad in itself seeing as he was made by real people and applying real-world concepts to fiction helps the audience relate to the material buuuuuuuuut…we still can’t forget this is a story with a villain with supernatural abilities to possess and manipulate the mind, create illusions, mimic other people etc. so some of the variables here are going to be outside of real-world conditions lol

I acknowledge the fantasy elements, but the characters are still designed with human characteristics for exactly the reasons you say. We need to emphasize with the characters to create an immersive experience. They have to relatable. We have to be able to understand what they are doing with clarity and empathy.

It’s gonna be hard to equate Cloud’s situation to real life once you get into the specific causes of his condition, namely Jenova, so you’re right about him being an easy target but the actual act of creating a false persona was not something he did on his own without being influenced by outside supernatural forces, which he very explicitly explained himself…maybe subconsciously he wanted to be something he wasn’t and Jenova was able to draw from that desire, but in this case he actually believed the lie because Jenova made him remember things falsely and as you later acknowledge yourself, Cloud’s true persona does actively try to resurface but cannot (which is why another outside influence, this time Tifa, is needed to help put the pieces of himself back together)

See my above about Cloud being an active character. He can't be completely passive in all this. He says he's not and it's what makes his character grow. People are capable of deceiving themselves. We do it all the time.

Good night pigglesthepup. Didn't mean to throw gas on the grill; please don't go back to lurking.

I did go to sleep, thank you. Hope you had a good night too.

This begs the question of what can be deemed canon and what can't. Obviously the direct statements made in the Ultimanias are canon. But what about more obscure or ambiguous stuff? For example, the artists who designed the BC Turks gave them names, but those names didn't make their way into the final game; the decision was taken to let the player choose his or her own names for these Turks, and so they were given "starter" code names that referred to their weapons. When the original character designs were published, the artist's names became known. So are those artists' names the canon names for the BC Turks, or are their weapon names canon, or is it canon that you name them yourself?

Or ideas that were formative in shaping the game, but ultimately omitted from the final product, or replaced by something similar yet different. Are they canon too?

My problem with excessive use of supplementary materials is that they create the problem of an ivory tower. We need to be interacting with the terrain itself, not avoiding it by over-analyzing secondary sources that are outside of it. It also makes no sense that someone should have to import a book that's written in a foreign language to understand a primary source that was very intentionally pushed to them for consumption, bad localization or not. It's being elitist to insist on that.

That's not to say they aren't unimportant, don't have place or aren't representative of artistic intent. The crux of what's canon just can't be based on them alone. It's the primary sources that should come first.

Edit: adding this to make sure it's super clear and the end of the misunderstanding.

I buy the theory that it's Jenovaroth's lies and not Cloud's for the original game. I do not buy it for the Remake because they have changed what Cloud remembers on his own and those memories run counter to keeping the illusion alive. Something is different here. I believe it is Cloud himself because of what I found in the primary source material for the Remake, the original game, when I looked into it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

@Makoeyes987

I get a strong impression that you seem to think I'm trying to imply Cloud actively plotted with Sephiroth to kill Aerith and end the world. Like they're off playing catch with the Black Materia while laughing manically or something. And maybe I'm being obtuse because the explanation you're giving me doesn't account for everything that's going on. To you it does, and as I told you, I saw it as making sense before but now I don't because in the Remake, Cloud is remembering things he technically shouldn't. My perspective was challenged, so I went the to the OG to understand why. This quote here is what really nailed it for me:



Master is a loaded word here because Cloud is referred to as Jenova and Sephiroth's puppet. He is saying that he himself has pulled some strings. He follows it up that he can't remained trapped in the illusion anymore because of what it has caused. He ends saying he is going to live truthfully in the future, implying that he was not doing so in the past. Because he's now going to be honest, this is where the unreliable narration ends. He is changing his behavior because he is undergoing character growth.

This isn't about him just blaming himself and feeling bad. Cloud is an active character in this story. He is not just another NPC or plot device. He is not a passive receptacle for everything. He says cloning Sephiroth is the same procedure they use for SOLDIER. Why didn't this happen to Zack? Because Zack and Cloud are different people. All the other clones had their minds shattered, but they're still vegetables. The one in the Sector 5 pipe is around people, but still a vegetable. Why isn't this story about him? Why is this story about Cloud? To be the main protagonist, he has to not only have wants, but take actions to pursue them. He has to actually be doing something himself. And then he has to learn from it in order to grow.

What's the variable between Cloud and the other clones? Cloud himself. Jenovaroth could have fed the same BS to the other clones and made them do the same thing, too. But that's not the story. The story is about Cloud.

I'm done discussing this subject with you because I find you very condescending. I prefer to continue enjoying this series.

You literally just responded to me so I will respond to you back, given your desire to insist on this bizarre assertion contrary to the text.

"Master" is no more loaded a word than any other, unless you're willing to somehow take the unreliable narrator at his word. Divorcing Cloud's perspective towards himself in interpreting the narrative context of what Sephiroth and Shinra did to him is frankly, backwards. You again, are able to connect the dots in critically understanding the nature of his false persona yet are completely incapable of grasping that Jenova cells within his brain allowed Sephiroth to mind control him and then use his deep subconscious insecurities to create a false persona outside of his own agency, due to experimentation done to him after traumatic injury that nearly resulted in death.

All your specious questioning about the variable intrinsic to Cloud, his role in crafting his false persona, and why Zack didn't succumb to the same result was literally just answered a page ago, but you clearly wish to remain ignorant and find the prospect of reading what was unfolded within the story too onerous for you to bother.

And this has nothing to do with the Remake, because that adaption is doing its own separate telling of this situation. How Cloud manifests this Jenova cell false persona is naturally going to be unique. That doesn't change the nature of the fantasy plot device. But you do you and enjoy your head canon.

 

[LNK]

Yeah, Japanese stories often span across various media, which is weird to us, but expected there. So Ultimania, novels, mangas... whatever is part of the canon story or explaining it is canon and should be treated as such. And quite frankly given the level of the mistranslations in the OG - some of which are really harmful to understand the characters and their motivations - it's not that bad to get a side companion book in this case.

I totally get why games like Final Fantasy have more media to fully tell the stories and explain characters. These characters/stories are not all cookie cutter and basic. We as (mostly American) consumers have to understand that the way we look at games/media, isn't the same way as Japan does.

Can anyone show some American games that are even remotely similar to Final Fantasy games?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I hate to say it, but the Japanese for Cloud's line there is this
「……俺は幻想の世界の住人だった」
Which means, "I was the inhabitant of a fantasy world".
"住人" means inhabitant, denizen.
More and more from these discussions I'm coming to realise that the FFVII I thought I knew was also a fantasy world created out of a mistranslation. And I don't really have time to do the kind of research I need to do in order to participate knowledgeably in these discussions.

Isn't Dragon Age American? I've only played Inquisition, but the games seem to have a lot of spin-offs and additional material.

 

[Odysseus]

More and more from these discussions I'm coming to realise that the FFVII I thought I knew was also a fantasy world created out of a mistranslation.

I've had a few long conversations with Obstinate Melon about how the FF7 we know and love is partly the product of its own rough translation and localization choices. Specifically when it comes to the characterization, especially Cloud and Barret.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

But I liked it.

 

[null]

Isn't Dragon Age American? I've only played Inquisition, but the games seem to have a lot of spin-offs and additional material.

Canadian, but it's a great example as is Mass Effect. Companion guides, comics and even anime that flesh out the more interesting backstories. Still, the games are pretty self-contained with the important lore neatly organized in journal entries; you don't really need the extra stuff for a complete understanding.

 

[LNK]

I hate to say it, but the Japanese for Cloud's line there is this
「……俺は幻想の世界の住人だった」
Which means, "I was the inhabitant of a fantasy world".
"住人" means inhabitant, denizen.
More and more from these discussions I'm coming to realise that the FFVII I thought I knew was also a fantasy world created out of a mistranslation. And I don't really have time to do the kind of research I need to do in order to participate knowledgeably in these discussions.

Isn't Dragon Age American? I've only played Inquisition, but the games seem to have a lot of spin-offs and additional material.

I'll have to check out Dragon Age if it is. I'm curious to see if it's as complex as final fantasy games can get

 

[KindOfBlue]

See my above about Cloud being an active character. He can't be completely passive in all this. He says he's not and it's what makes his character grow. People are capable of deceiving themselves. We do it all the time.

He kinda has to be passive though because there comes a point in the story where both Cloud and the audience are led to believe that he’s not even a person, merely the product of an experiment…there’d be no reason for Cloud to believe it and have a mental breakdown if he was as aware of the lie as somebody would be if they were actively faking it up, so even though Cloud calls himself the “master of his own illusionary world”, I don’t think that’s meant to be taken so literally seeing as he still makes a point to answer Barret’s “pretty damn strong for an illusion” with an explanation of Sephiroth and Jenova’s influence

I do not buy it for the Remake because they have changed what Cloud remembers on his own and those memories run counter to keeping the illusion alive.

Well, in the remake we have:
- Cloud falsely remembering Tifa calling out to him as a child
- Cloud constantly being harassed by Sephiroth (and I want to reiterate, the reason Cloud is so special to Sephiroth is likely because he’s the one who managed to defeat him)
- Sephiroth making Cloud stumble through a vision of Nibelheim on fire before mocking him about killing his mother
- Cloud constantly having visions of the future, in particular with allusions to Aerith’s death (an event that Jenova nearly succeeded in having Cloud carry out himself in the OG)
- Cloud briefly turning into a zombie in the Shinra building, stumbling down a hallway and mumbling about Jenova while hearing Sephiroth’s voice during the Nibelheim incident
- Cloud freaking out at the mere mention of Jenova’s name by Aerith
- Cloud clearly still believing himself to be a SOLDIER and Hojo nearly spoiling the reveal before being carted away by the time jannies
- Sephiroth trolling Cloud into killing fate and pursuing him (in actuality being summoned by Sephiroth as we learned in the OG)
There’s just too much going on here with Cloud due to external factors (even more so now than in the OG I’d argue) for me to consider him to be any less of a puppet in Remake

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

If we hadn't already played the OG, would we know those memories were false?
Cloud is more of a puppet than he knows, but less of a puppet than Sephiroth would like him to think. A degree of self-awareness is essential; Sephiroth couldn't torment him if he didn't still have some free will left. Jenova never completely controls him, but he (almost) never acts completely freely either. He's on a long leash. It's more fun for Sephiroth that way.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Cloud's "long leash" gives him the illusion of freedom and agency however it's all predicated on a fabrication that actually leaves him far less control than he realizes.

To equate it to PC security, he's a compromised node on a network, an office computer that on the surface functions just fine, albeit with a few internet slowdowns and RAM issues but able to get the job done. However, little does anyone realize that it carries a trojan horse that allows a hacker to remote control it at their leisure and it's syphoning all the data on the network while completely unaware of its situation.

That's Cloud. He's functional on the surface, but wholly compromised by Sephiroth and Jenova cells because he's unaware of his true self.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I agree. It's far less than he realises, but it's also more than Sephiroth thinks. He hasn't lost all sense of self or volition, like the numbered clones. Cloud goes through an arc where at first he has no idea that he's being controlled, then he swings to the other extreme and thinks he's so completely controlled that he doesn't even exist as an independent being, and so surrenders himself to the "only" will; and then eventually with Tifa's help he establishes a stable sense of self grounded in real memories and can move forward to defeat the other will that was trying to control him.

I realise everybody already knows this.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I totally get why games like Final Fantasy have more media to fully tell the stories and explain characters. These characters/stories are not all cookie cutter and basic. We as (mostly American) consumers have to understand that the way we look at games/media, isn't the same way as Japan does.

Oh yeah, I just chalk it to the nature of multimedia franchises getting this popular…reminds me of stuff in the West like Marvel or Star Wars

More and more from these discussions I'm coming to realise that the FFVII I thought I knew was also a fantasy world created out of a mistranslation.

Ah, but you…you are merely a puppet…you were told that “this guy are sick”…that you acquired Tifa’s “orthopedic underwear”…that you were to attack the Guard Scorpion while it’s tail was up…naively chipping away at the indestructible language barrier with little more than the brittle fragments of your own shattered disillusionment…

“Beacause” Lic, you are…a puppet.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Hey, I also have a rag-tag assortment of loser friends! They and their tragic backstories will give me the strength to fight through to the other side.