I'm going by the explanation given to me by Cloud himself within the game. If that's not where I should be looking for an answer, then what is your point about him not being a liar?
So you're purposefully being obtuse? Because it's been given to you and you're apparently choosing not to read it.
In Crisis Core he has a way to avoid the whole issue by keeping his identity concealed. That's all he has to do and it's all he does. He's totally exposed at the train station. He needs an explanation for the state he's in. More on Crisis Core: as he's dying, Zack entrusts the Buster Sword to Cloud and deems him his "living legacy," which Cloud goes and tries to carry out. Was that all just Jenovaroth? Did Cloud have no agency in that?
The explanation is provided. You're the one choosing to ignore it.
Cloud having the briefest moments of lucidity at his friend's death doesn't change his fractured and mako poisoned state. Mako poisoned people have moments of clarity that are fleeting, as shown in FFVII itself and novellas such as "Picturing the Past." Cloud's mental state isn't his own.
I think I totally understand his feeling of guild and shame, seeing as I've explained why he would lie about it. Deceit is only fun for a psychopath, which Cloud is not. Yes, he admits to being a liar to hold himself accountable (because he did lie). But if he didn't actually lie, then he is now lying if he says that he did lie. And if he's lying because Jenovaroth is still in control of him and making him lie, then the player shouldn't be able to beat the game after this. So, again, where does this end?
At this point, you're understanding your own headcanon.
The concept of self imposed guilt is not a complicated subject which I'm sure you have the ability to understand and it's central to Advent Children as well. Cloud feeling guilty and carrying it with him is nothing new. A character's dialogue in the text can be at odds with the narrative circumstance. I don't know what to tell you if you can't understand plotting such as this.
He's an abuse victim. Abuse victims can't escape their abuser because they justify the abuse. This is why it's a combination and he includes himself in the equation. He was initially getting something out of this. He was not aware of the greater consequences.
More like a parasitized victim of alien cells that hijacked his consciousness and made him a puppet to an alien-human hybrid with telepathic mind control powers. What he "got out of it" was simply an illusion based on his subconscious, meant to allow him to be a puppet to follow Sephiroth's will all while blissfully unaware. No, he didn't "get anything out of it." Stop mischaracterizing the character, please.
In the script of the game that you pulled and put in quote boxes, he uses the word "I." Straight, declarative sentences saying he did such and such actions. They are things that are done over a series of time in a cumulative manner. He does not end this with "Jenovaroth made me do all these things," but the above statement including himself in the equation. He's admitting to being complicit in the deed. That is the narrative. Does he feel bad about it? Of course.
The entire crux of the story of FFVII is its
unreliable narrator, Cloud Strife.
The fact that you cling to this unreliable narration of his personal history that reflects Cloud's most blatant self deprecating characterization is laughable. Treating this as straight gospel when everything inside and outside the story is telling you otherwise is... Something else. No, he's not going to just outright say Sephiroth made him do everything because he's a person who hates his weakness and is ashamed of what happened. It's a confession. Keep up with the framing of the story. The narrative features an unreliable narrator.
This is not what I've suggested at all. I see it as you trying to be malicious towards me. I'm going to excuse it.
But it's consistent with you taking Cloud's unreliable and deeply biased perspective towards his own weakness as truth. So you
probably should rethink it.
Yes, I am taking what he says as rote fact. What is shown in those sequences illustrates the reasons why he did what he says he did: lie. Or he somehow still being deceptive? What is the whole point of this sequence and why can I still beat the game after it?
Taking what he says as fact misses the entire point and perspective of what happened to Cloud within the context of the story. Taking an unreliable narrator's narration of the story, that's clearly skewed by his own self deprecation, is silly. You're either being purposefully difficult in interpreting a basic principle of self-guilt or this game is too complicated for you. I think its the former, rather than the latter, honestly.
The whole point of the sequence is to listen to Cloud give exposition on his own experience of having someone piece back together his personality, colored by his guilt, honesty and self deprecation. It's not indecipherable. You can 'beat the game" because he's now himself and free of Sephiroth's influence thanks to Tifa piecing his ego together.
I'll give you this one time with a secondary source: we frequently see Cloud trying to fight back against being manipulated. It's illustrated in the form of ghosted versions of him or even a separate child being. These are the multiple personalities. But the real Cloud is still one of them. He's still there and we see him fight for control. But he's still in there, and he's the one we supposedly getting back through the Lifestream sequence and giving the confession on the bridge. I'm going to believe him as to what happened. After all, he had a front row seat.
Believing the unreliable narration...
So I guess you believe he was an ex-SOLDIER too?
I ask because you clearly seem capable of critically dissecting the truth and context within the story when it comes to Cloud's previous unreliable narration, yet seem completely incapable of it now... When it's obvious his explanation of his experience is clearly tinged with self deprecation and shame over succumbing to this mental control.
This is why what you're saying sounds so ridiculous, especially when the text itself is telling you otherwise. Believe the man with a guilt complex who clearly feels at fault because he was the one who experienced the mind controlling experimentation... That's sensical in what world, again?
You're equating lying with malice, which I've repeatedly said I'm not. Again, I'll let this go as a personal attack.
This isn't even about "lying and malice," this is you fundamentally refusing to accept a basic tenet of the storyline.
I'm attributing what he said to the truths that were revealed. If he's not lying or doing something else besides telling the truth in his confession on the bridge, then that's what I should do.
And ignoring everything else that says otherwise.
The original FF7 was released was intended as a complete product. I'm giving the people of the former Squaresoft the benefit of the doubt that they knew what they were doing and made their product complete, ensuring what they wanted to convey would get across to the player by having them just play the game. That's particularly critical for an overseas audience, who they were really looking to impress and came up with a huge marketing budgeting for.
I personally find your attitude snobby and elitist. Anyone should be able to pick up a piece of work, read it and make sense of it without having to devote chunks of life to supplementary materials. If that's not true, then the artist has failed, Japan or anywhere else. How is someone suppose to get into an anime if when upon first viewing, if it makes little sense? That's just illogical, no matter which culture you come from. Squaresoft wanted to go very big with this game internationally. It had to be a complete product. I'm assuming that it is. Bad localization in parts, but can still make out what it's trying to say. Having to use supplementary materials closes off new comers and has the terrible effect of making the fandom insular. It's a bad business practice.
It was released properly in Japanese, transliterated and localized poorly in multiple languages across the globe, released with bugs everywhere, and then formerly re-released with a slightly improved script and recontexualized with numerous additional short stories, guidebooks, sequels, prequels and now a Remake... All done by the creators of the original. Why? Because its popular and needed clarification.
And this is not even new or unique to Final Fantasy. For someone who just referenced anime, you sound woefully naïve and completely inexperienced in the medium. How is someone supposed to get into an anime if upon first viewing it doesnt make sense?
Have you not even watched Evangelion??? You rewatch it, rewatch it again, and look for what's out there. You don't just
ignore everything past the first work.
Your willful ignorance doesn't change the nature of the narrative as it was originally depicted in its source language depiction, intention, and overarching narrative canon. If you want to rigidly cling to your own headcanon because you have some "first!" mentality to media,
that's on you. Other people have adapted. They are enjoying and discussing the work as the properly contextualized narrative that fits within its respective series. Find it snobby, elitist, or
whatever justification and pejorative you wish, but that's simply
not how most people who follow this FF series have operated or will operate. You can get with and adapt to the new information present or be in a bubble of misinformation. It's ultimately your choice.
