SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[LicoriceAllsorts]

"I mean it's the fact that they keep adopting kids. Usually when a family does that, it's that they can't have one."

I question whether this is true generally; however, when we look at the specific case of Cloud and Tifa, what we see is that:
1. They are looking after the daughter of an old friend and comrade whose work doesn't allow him to care for her 24/7. However, Barret is still Marlene's dad. There is no suggestion that they have formally adopted her or that Cloud has taken Barret's place in her life.
2. Denzel is a sick kid Cloud rescued from Aerith's church. They took him in and are nursing him until he dies, because they are not the kind of people who would turn a child out to die in the street. Again, though they are committed to caring for him, there's no suggestion that they have formally adopted him.
3. Did they adopt Shelke?

It's not as if C&T actively went out looking for orphans to adopt. All three of these kids landed on Tifa and Cloud's doorstep through the accident of circumstances, and Cloud and Tifa are looking after them because that's the kind of people they are. The children and adults living at 7th Heaven Mark II do not, by any stretch of the imagination, form anything like a "normal family". None of them are even related to each other. However, the point the film is trying to make, surely, is that they are a family, because they care about and support each other.

 

[frosty]

IDK, just looking at that quote, it seems like the interviewer / asker, SPOKE about Zack first that lead to that response.
Kitase's response wasn't unbidden. If he had asked "What is the song about here?" and Kitase goes, "Well Cloud and Zack were close..."
Then yes. Clear indication.

It was cos the interviewer specifically asked about Zack and Kitase responded in the typical, Japanese, inane way of "well if you like to see it like that you can".

That being said, I dunno what the big brouhaha about Hollow is. Like....Aerith isn't even dead (yet) in FF7R. Like, whatchu you walking around in the rain and howling about, Cloud...she's RIGHT THERE.

 

[eleamaya]

Which paragraph from the song do you think fits Zack better than Aerith ?
While I agree you can apply some lines to Zack, all the lines in a stanza are connected. Try looking at the paragraphs as a whole. It becomes pretty clear it's about Aerith

People forget to analyze how similar Price of Freedom official lyrics (2014) with Hollow (2020).
This is the song in case you never hear it--> jp.square-enix.com/music/sem/page/tdm/
I tried to make connections in their similar lines like this by bolding them with same colors:

Well, I don’t ship Zack & Cloud romantically and would rather use the word 'ai' to describe their love towards each other, not 'koi.' But in English, don’t you think the lyrics of “Price of Freedom” sounds more ‘romantic’ than “Hollow’ because there is a word ‘my love’ and 'my heart'? And if people had no idea about Crisis Core and Zack, they would think “Price of Freedom” is directed to a woman since there’s the word “beauty” while “Hollow” is more genderless to even think it if it refers to Aerith unless you’re a certain shipper.

Intentionally, both games end in the same place, Midgar Outskirt, with two Clouds, one from the past (with or without Zack being alive) and another one from the present crossing each other. And with a similar melody & instrument of two events, the lyrics also connect it. In short:

Cloud in "Hollow", imagine he's looking at the cloudy sky when it's raining and feeling like this:
Was it all a DREAM? Will I ever know?
Had I REALIZED?
Would you be here in my EMBRACE?
Show me your SMILE.
But I know you're long GONE.
I'll go howling and hollow to NEVER KNOW.

Cloud in "Prince of Freedom", imagine he's looking at the clear blue sky after the rain and feeling like this::
Look into the sky and see the DREAM we never lost.
There's something I REALIZE.
Together we EMBRACE one dream.
Even when we part, you'll never be GONE.
I'd NEVER FORGET the love you gave me.
I wanna see your SMILE.​

It sounds like resolution. BUT the fact is... the chronology of the song is swapped. Cloud is IN lost. Under the rain in a barren land, Cloud in FF7Remake blocking his other self who was already enlightened in Crisis Core to never know Zack; someone he promises to never forget, whose smiling soul and love guides him to embrace the dream & protect the honor together. He has no guidance.

LOST.
EMPTY.
HOLLOW.

So, "Hollow" isn't simply about losing someone dear. "Something important" that Cloud is lost is not "a person" but "his real self" and "the guidance to be his real self." Again, Zack should be the voice guiding him that beats Sephiroth's illusion in Cloud's head to go through. Sephiroth wants Cloud to be his puppet (fake/empty self), Zack asks Cloud to be his living legacy (real/having purpose in life with dreams and honor). These voices are like an angel and devil on your shoulder. Remember Sephiroth taunts Cloud like this:

"Don't pretend as if you're sad.
Don't act as if you're angry, either.
Because, Cloud, you are.... an EMPTY puppet."
​

And it doesnt happen in Aerith's death only, but also in FFAC when Cloud's mourning on Zack's grave.

Spoiler: PIC WHEN SEPH SAID CLOUD IS EMPTY.

It doesnt matter who or what Cloud lost: his mom, Zack, Aerith, Tifa, Denzel, etc; Sephiroth will keep saying he can't be sad nor angry because he's just an empty puppet. Empty. Hollow. When does he not feel hollow? It's when he embraces his real self with dreams and honor. Zack reminds Cloud of that, guides him, before Cloud finally gave Sephiroth omnislash and tell him:

"There's not a thing I don't cherish."
---fin---​

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Did they adopt Shelke?

Unless they've adopted Yuffie and Red XIII, my guess is no. Shelke may be slightly older than Yuffie even (they're both 19 in Dirge, apparently).

 

[Eerie]

That's something that I've always wondered. Is it stated somewhere in any official material that Tifa and Cloud adopted Shelke? Because it sounds really strange to me.

I don't think they adopted her, but isn't it mentioned that Shelke goes to live to the bar at the end? Surely she is too big to get adopted, but Cloud and Tifa act like the head of the family and the bar. IMHO she can leave when she wants, but the bar is her connection to Vincent, probably. I'm vastly unaware of DoC, I will probably play whatever comes to Ever Crisis from it. Or try to, because I'm not good at FPS (I might end up watching that part on YT lol). I just feel that the bar is too crowded to bring in a baby for years to come.

1. They are looking after the daughter of an old friend and comrade whose work doesn't allow him to care for her 24/7. However, Barret is still Marlene's dad. There is no suggestion that they have formally adopted her or that Cloud has taken Barret's place in her life.

I agree with this. However Cloud still acts like a father figure:

“I’ll be a nice child of this family!” Marlene said.

Hearing those words, Cloud and Tifa looked at each other. A child of this family?

“I’ll take care of Cloud and Tifa!”

So if anything, I'd say that while Barret is her father, Cloud is like a step-father to her. He's still her father figure, as he's the one raising her. But her real father is Barret. It's clear that she's the one link creating the family at first, before Denzel even arrived.

It's not as if C&T actively went out looking for orphans to adopt. All three of these kids landed on Tifa and Cloud's doorstep through the accident of circumstances, and Cloud and Tifa are looking after them because that's the kind of people they are. The children and adults living at 7th Heaven Mark II do not, by any stretch of the imagination, form anything like a "normal family". None of them are even related to each other. However, the point the film is trying to make, surely, is that they are a family, because they care about and support each other.

I also agree, but I do not look at it from a story perspective, I look at it from an author perspective. What do you chose to tell, and what you do not tell, rather than what the story tells. Choices that are made ahead of the story is what interests me, in this case. "Why did Nojima chose to write the story this way?" is the question I ask myself in this case. He could have chosen way different ways, but it's the fact that he did not that sticks out to me.

Anyway, aside from Zack. I genuinely also feel "Hollow" maybe not just simply about losing a friend. "Something important" that Cloud is lost is not "a person" but "his real self."

I agree, Hollow to me is about Cloud losing his true self. Zack's death is a defining moment in his life, not only does he lose his best (and only?) friend there, but he also loses his true self. Hollow is Cloud being empty because Zack dies, because he lost himself in the process. As I said, there is a reason why Hollow sky plays in sector 5: it's not because it's about Aerith, it's because it's partly about Zack. Zack's shadow is all over sector 5 - Aerith doing things with Cloud she wanted to do with Zack, the kids playing with a Buster sword replica (which implies they saw it before they saw Cloud with it), one NPC commenting on Cloud's height which shows that Aerith has been babbling about Zack about everywhere to everyone. Hollow sky plays in sector 5 because both Cloud and Aerith have lost Zack. Which is why Hollow is both linked to Zack and to Cloud himself. It's a core moment that's difficult to separate so it's there in one song.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Shelke only stayed at the bar temporarily. She was only there, texting him in hopes of him answering, while everyone was looking for Vincent since he disappeared after colliding head first with Omega.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I also agree, but I do not look at it from a story perspective, I look at it from an author perspective. What do you chose to tell, and what you do not tell, rather than what the story tells. Choices that are made ahead of the story is what interests me, in this case. "Why did Nojima chose to write the story this way?" is the question I ask myself in this case. He could have chosen way different ways, but it's the fact that he did not that sticks out to me.

I'm all in favour of looking at the canon in this way, but I don't really see any difference between story perspective and author perspective. It's the story the author wanted to tell. Either way, the words are exactly the same. There is no story except the story the author tells. Any other story is headcanon/fanfic.

That said, how would you describe the 'way' in which Nojima wrote this story? In your view, what is the significance of the way in which he chose to tell it?

That he is interested in the concept of a found family seems beyond dispute. All four of the central persons in this family - Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, Denzel - lost their real families as a result of an atrocity perpetrated by Shinra. To find each other and regroup as a new family seems like part of the post-apocalyptic healing process, analogous to the healing the Planet must undergo after being wounded by both Shinra and Sephiroth.

If you like to read it as proof that Cloud and Tifa can't have children of their own, that's absolutely your privilege. I'm just saying that I don't see any evidence of it either in the story or in the way the story is told.

 

[Thenir]

I won't act like an expert because I've never played DoC, but I watched a walkthrough and nothing there hints her permanence at 7th Heaven after the final cutscene. I think I read it on some website (probably fandom) but it seems more a mandela effect, like Zirconiabe being the cause of the destruction of Sector 6. I don't think the devs ever even thought about the details concerning her future life, except her positive role toward Vincent and his process of self-reconciliation. Actually, according to that game, this character is likely to have a very short life span since she needs constant injections of Mako to survive (or something like that, I don't recall the details) and Mako is no more available. Anyway, Episode Denzel takes place one year after DoC and there's no mention of Shelke there.

I also agree, but I do not look at it from a story perspective, I look at it from an author perspective. What do you chose to tell, and what you do not tell, rather than what the story tells. Choices that are made ahead of the story is what interests me, in this case. "Why did Nojima chose to write the story this way?" is the question I ask myself in this case. He could have chosen way different ways, but it's the fact that he did not that sticks out to me.

Totally agree with this approach to analyze the story. I think Denzel, just like Shelke - and more recently Sonon -, in the kind of secondary character created with the specific intent to catalyze a change/development in a main character and deepen their backstory. In this case, when the devs decided to create Advent Children and figure how to depict the main characters, they decided to link up with the unresolved personal issues mentioned in the OG, and every short story in OTWTAS is centred on the topic of guilt (only exception is Vincent whose guilt is processed in DoC).
Instead of letting Tifa and Cloud finding alone and separately the resolution to their problems, they refocused them into Denzel (which I find a good character with his self-contained backstory and character arc) who is:
- for Tifa the son of two victims of the plate fall
- for Cloud related to Aerith (collapsed in front of the church) and I'd say also with Zack since he resolves to take care of this kid like Zack had taken care of him when he was Mako poisoned (and he visits Zack's grave admitting he failed to be his living legacy)
Taking care of this child is for the both of them a way to atone their sins, indeed his presence eases the emotional tention between them.

Marlene is quite another subject. I think the main reason why they decided to give her a prominent role in the movie is her bond with Aerith, since she takes in a bit of Aerith's supportive and encouraging role. But I'm a bit disappointed they missed the opportunity to deepen the bond between Barret and Cloud and Barret as a character in general. I get the need to give him a journey of redemption - and growing a kid in the hideout of a terroristic cell wasn't exactly good father material - but I wish the authour could have showed more clearly his motivations. My impression is that he realized he couldn't be a good parent while Cloud and Tifa, even if dealing with their own problems, could be a better family for his beloved daughter (I like how ToTP depicts Tifa immediately getting affectionate to Marlene and willing to help her, even if not yet in a strictly maternal way). That not only he had to atone for his sins but actively change to deserve her. Idk, I wish they had handled this character better.
Episode Denzel doesn't mention Barret and in Reminiscence he's not living in Edge, so I have the impression the intent of the author was to show that Barret rebuilds his own life away from the bar, it's not confirmed if at some point Marlene rejoins her father.

Who knows maybe one day they'll show something more about their future and how this family is meant to evolve, considering the themes of the Remake and the announcement of Ever Crisis I wouldn't totally exclude it.

 

[Eerie]

I'm all in favour of looking at the canon in this way, but I don't really see any difference between story perspective and author perspective. It's the story the author wanted to tell. Either way, the words are exactly the same. There is no story except the story the author tells. Any other story is headcanon/fanfic.

I don't consider any other story as anything else than fanfiction - I don't even give it a second thought usually, honestly. My favoured way of writing cloti is in AUs lol. Because I don't like to meddle with canon (personal preference so I can separate easily canon, fanfiction, headcanons).

That said, how would you describe the 'way' in which Nojima wrote this story? In your view, what is the significance of the way in which he chose to tell it?

If he wanted to hint at cloti kid(s), it would have been very easy actually; in the Kids are Alright, having Tifa commenting that maybe one day they'll have kids would be largely enough, especially since Cloud comments on their family. If you think about it, it would have to be just a line, it would fit Tifa's character, however it's not there. And I don't mean to demean their little family, because I think it's awesome, mind you, but I look at a very easy way to show that maybe in the future they'll have kid(s) of their own and it's simply not there. We see in Case of Denzel, he's already thinking about leaving the family (they work young apparently in this world, and it's already lingering in his young teen's head), Marlene will go back to her real father too. Yet it seems that both Cloud and Tifa are not planning ahead of this, not even a throwaway line, which is what *I* find bizarre. It's such an odd choice of writing for a main pair, especially since they have been presented as a couple since forever. It would not be surprising, wouldn't it? So it's the fact that it's not there that does surprise me.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

By that logic we can also assume that Cloud and Tifa don't believe in marriage, since they never mention getting married. The issue of having natural children is very important to you, and if you were writing this story, you'd add such a line so that the readers would know for sure where Cloud and Tifa stand. But it simply may not have been very important to the person who wrote the story. Its omission is not a heavy hint that they can't have children. I actually have kids, and yet it would never occur to me to include such a throwaway line on the intentions of my pairings to having children (or not), because it's just not important to me. I don't find it an odd choice of writing for a main pair at all. So we see, our interpretations are determined by our expectations and our own assumptions about what is and is not important.

 

[Eerie]

By that logic we can also assume that Cloud and Tifa don't believe in marriage, since they never mention getting married.

Marriage doesn't seem to exist in FFVII world. Peko told me that Nojima excluded all marrying notion from his books. Leslie, despite having a fiancée, just goes to live with her and they don't seem to ever get married.

The issue of having natural children is very important to you,

It's not. Really. I mean I mentioned this passing by, but I never think about it. I just argue because people push me to explain my stance regarding it. By all mean I would like to drop the subject because I think we have explored every stance by now. It's my feeling that Nojima keeps Cloud and Tifa being parents with other kids because they can't really have ones of their own, but in the end it does not matter because I consider Denzel as their kid and Marlene as their daughter who may or not go back to Barret later on (I do hope she will, that's my personal headcanon that Barret may not be ready yet but he will be one day ready to take her back and be the awesome father she loves).

I just look at Tifa, who was raised in a very conservative way, I look at her fears of not being a normal family in CoT, I look at her making an innocent comment to Aerith in ToTP, and I wonder why she hasn't made the same wish for herself. I look at how Nojima built the story, and I think it's likely they will not have a kid of their own given the context we have been given up until now about especially Nibelheim (since they both are from there). The way the story is build is just indicative of this, and the way Nojima threw kids at them is also telling to me. Denzel clearly served as a catalyst to their couple, just like Marlene did in her own way (she started the whole family thing), but in the end not hearing about it even through Denzel's eyes later in Case of Denzel is saying to me that either Nojima wants them to not have a baby for future installments (unlikely) or that he thinks something's up because certainly Tifa is the kind of character to me who would want a kid of her own.

 

[Stiggie]

It would be strange to me that the song is about Cloud's mourning in general, because the paragraphs are all pointing to a certain person, the main subject of the song. In every stanza there is a person to whom the words are directed towards.
To me it seems to be about a person that Cloud has lost. That leaves either Zack or Aerith, but maybe you see it differently.



I agree you can't take them literally. I look at the paragraphs as a whole and try to apply the general tone and message the paragraph is trying to convey to either it being about Aerith or Zack. Then you can put the paragraphs together and form the full picture.

I never claimed Cloud didn't cherish Zack or that Cloud became Hollow only because he lost Aerith. It just seems to me this song is about Aerith.

What do you mean with the song playing when Zack dies too?
The time the instrumental version of the song plays is in Sector 5 slums, when you are separated from Aerith, which is another pretty strong hint the song is about her.

The problem is that you're using the fact that the song seems to sing about a single person as it meaning that the song has to represent a single person.

The song is meant to represent loss, and the song itself expresses the feeling of loss through singing about a lost person. That does not mean that the concept of loss, when applied to Cloud, also has to be about a single person. The man standing in the rain isn't Cloud, it's just a storytelling device, a frame of mind while writing the story. The proverbial "I" in the song isn't necessarily Cloud, it's just some nameless person experiencing loss.

The order of events is as follow. You have Cloud, who has lost a bunch of things, to represent that, the developers wanted a song that generally expressed the feeling of loss, that concept is given to the composer who then writes a song about losing a person. You're not meant to read the song as being a line by line summary of Clouds losses in verse form. That wouldn't be a very good song.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

If he wanted to hint at cloti kid(s), it would have been very easy actually; in the Kids are Alright, having Tifa commenting that maybe one day they'll have kids would be largely enough, especially since Cloud comments on their family.

The context of that scene is to draw a direct correlation between one found family and another found family. What you're suggesting would be thematically at odds -- it quite simply doesn't belong there and should not be there.

Marriage doesn't seem to exist in FFVII world. Peko told me that Nojima excluded all marrying notion from his books. Leslie, despite having a fiancée, just goes to live with her and they don't seem to ever get married.

If the existence of fianceés wasn't already enough to tell us they have marriage, repeated references to wives and husbands should.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I might be wrong but I never got the impression that Barret had handed Marlene over pemanently into Cloud and Tifa's care. However, he is a restless man who travels both to assuage his guilt and also for his job, whereas Tifa leads a settled existence in one of the nicest streets in Edge. Barret can't take Marlene with him, so he leaves her with Tifa, just as he used to do. Tifa's been a mother figure to Marlene since before the events of the OG. Cloud isn't much of a father figure, though. Like Barret, he is restless and guilt-stricken, more absent than present.

 

[Eerie]

The context of that scene is to draw a direct correlation between one found family and another found family. What you're suggesting would be thematically at odds -- it quite simply doesn't belong there and should not be there.

Maybe it would, but I still think that having a throwaway line about it in any of the books about a "maybe" would be very easy, especially since it fits one of the characters to a T (without any pun intended), especially post-ACC.

If the existence of fianceés wasn't already enough to tell us they have marriage, repeated references to wives and husbands should.

Oh true, somehow my mind blanked that out. I did ask Peko about Leslie but he never gets married, they just settle together with his fiancée. And the Tifa part seems to omit any mention of marriage, which weirded her out. But there's Elmyra, for example. I wonder now, if in such a world, especially post-meteor, marriage is less the norm? And were people used to not marry in Nibelheim? Because that's the Nibelheim part that really made her think that, the Japanese really takes care of leaving out every little word that could make one person think people are married there. Personally I wouldn't be shocked since no one prays the god(s) anymore that it would be rarer.

 

[Phantasia]

Going back to Hollow (I know we are talking about marriage now), I remember way back when I was playing the OG feeling very moved (or maybe crying?) listening to Aerith theme while fighting Jenova after her death. I am kind of expecting the same felling when the time comes (if it comes), and no other piece of music is gonna do the trick for me.

When people started to associate Hollow to Aerith I was like "what?! She's not dead and this is only part one, am I supposed to mourn her now?". Sorry but I don't get that vibe from that song... She is still alive and kicking and defying Destiny with capital D, we are not even sure if she's going to die time around (I think she will but that's another topic).

I agree the song is sad and about loss, but about Aerith? I'm literally still using her. Now on a more personal opinion, the song is good, but if we get to lose her again, I expect something a little more... impactful.

 

[Thenir]

Cloud isn't much of a father figure, though. Like Barret, he is restless and guilt-stricken, more absent than present.

Agreed but the point of putting these kids in Cloud's family - from a narrative standpoint - is to encourage a change in him. Imo becoming a parental figure is the last step of a more general development, catching up with the missing 5 years and overcome his past attitude of self-blame. Nonetheless that's one of the objectives, hinted by Tifa who compared him to a father/continuously expressed her wish to take a step forward in their relatioship, and the last lines of "The kids are alright" where he remarks the fact he considers his family a "real family".

 

[KindOfBlue]

IDK, just looking at that quote, it seems like the interviewer / asker, SPOKE about Zack first that lead to that response.
Kitase's response wasn't unbidden. If he had asked "What is the song about here?" and Kitase goes, "Well Cloud and Zack were close..."
Then yes. Clear indication.

It was cos the interviewer specifically asked about Zack and Kitase responded in the typical, Japanese, inane way of "well if you like to see it like that you can".

That being said, I dunno what the big brouhaha about Hollow is. Like....Aerith isn't even dead (yet) in FF7R. Like, whatchu you walking around in the rain and howling about, Cloud...she's RIGHT THERE.

He’s clearly meant to perpetually be in mourning for Aerith across all points in time and in every possible universe because that’s what makes him D E E P…

Seriously though, the FF7 fanbase’s tendency to exhaustingly overananalyze EVERY single thing really doesn’t vibe well with things that are meant to be interpreted loosely or that just don’t have as deep a meaning as people think (which makes it even more silly when the devs DO lay things out only for people to go “nah, I like my version better”).



The process for coming up with stuff like this really isn’t always so deep and intricately-woven, y’all. I dunno, I feel like trying to logically connect as many lines as possible to a specific person (especially for shipping purposes) just sucks away all the culminating emotions of everything Cloud has been through.

 

[villains23]

Going back to Hollow (I know we are talking about marriage now), I remember way back when I was playing the OG feeling very moved (or maybe crying?) listening to Aerith theme while fighting Jenova after her death. I am kind of expecting the same felling when the time comes (if it comes), and no other piece of music is gonna do the trick for me.

When people started to associate Hollow to Aerith I was like "what?! She's not dead and this is only part one, am I supposed to mourn her now?". Sorry but I don't get that vibe from that song... She is still alive and kicking and defying Destiny with capital D, we are not even sure if she's going to die time around (I think she will but that's another topic).

I agree the song is sad and about loss, but about Aerith? I'm literally still using her. Now on a more personal opinion, the song is good, but if we get to lose her again, I expect something a little more... impactful.

There's a contradiction that I've noticed among some of the folks who believe Hollow is about Aerith. There are a lot of Clerith shippers who believe Hollow is about Aerith, and a lot of them also believe that Aerith is going to survive through the entirety of the remake.

The lyrics of Hollow includes the line, "But I... I know that you're long gone."

This would contract the idea that Aerith lives.

So if anyone believes that Hollow is about Aerith, then they have to accept the idea that Aerith will not live.

 

[frosty]

The process for coming up with stuff like this really isn’t always so deep and intricately-woven, y’all. I dunno, I feel like trying to logically connect as many lines as possible to a specific person (especially for shipping purposes) just sucks away all the culminating emotions of everything Cloud has been through.

All this.

I'm all in favour of looking at the canon in this way, but I don't really see any difference between story perspective and author perspective.

And has anyone thought about the whole angle of...the financial perspective, which I think trumps all?
Garnet's most character defining moment (hair cut) almost didn't make it...because field modelers didn't want to have to make a short hair model and a long hair model.

Maybe it would, but I still think that having a throwaway line about it in any of the books about a "maybe" would be very easy, especially since it fits one of the characters to a T (without any pun intended), especially post-ACC.

I'm sure they could do this if they really wanted to, but I invite you to think this way:

• Would it be possible to have, in DoC set a year after AC, for Cloud to make a call and ask "How is the baby?" - in the same way of Reminiscence, where you know it's Tifa, but you don't even hear her voice? - Yes. (Would it be a bit out of the left field? - Yes)
• Have they done something like this to other characters? Yes, actually. Yuna, Wakka and Rikku talk about Lulu's pregnancy in Eternal Calm, but Lulu is not seen at all (See above: Not worth it to make new field model. Mechanics of Lulu's dress as a pregnant woman makes 0 sense)
• Would old fans be a bit upset to not see Tifa at all in Doc? Yes
• Does Lulu have the same clout as Tifa: No
• Would it make better financial sense to have Tifa present in the game, so that they can put her in the promotional material to pull in nostalgic fans even though her airtime is like, 2 minutes: Yes
  
  

 

[Eerie]

You talk as if Case of Denzel doesn't happen a year after DoC. It does, it's the perfect set up for a maybe line. And now I won't answer anymore because really, as I did say earlier, we have toured my point of view as well as everyone's point of view there. It's exhausting to be rehashing that. It's just a personal throwaway thought, I don't really care about it and y'all make me sound like I do. *I don't.*

 

[Stiggie]

I've been wondering something, perhaps someone here can clarify. I've seen the following quote thrown around quite a bit, but other than that it is from an interview from 2002 with Nomura I've never seen an actual scan or original source for it.

"I'd say, [who Cloud likes] is all how you perceive the game. Cloud, as you know, is a very popular character, so I don't want to confirm the answer either way. Since the players have affection towards him, I want to leave it up to the players to decide who Cloud likes."

I think this quote is pretty impactful for the entire debate so I'd like to be certain whether it's fake or real. I have the feeling that if it WERE real I'd have seen evidence for it, since Cleriths would probably post it every chance they get.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Do you think so? For many of them, a big part of being an active Clerith or Cloti is "proving" that the other team is wrong. If the player can decide who Cloud likes, the player might decide that Cloud likes Tifa, and for Cleriths, that would be incorrect. Likewise for the aggressive Clotis, if you decide that Cloud likes Aerith, you're just wrong.

 

[Stiggie]

Do you think so? For many of them, a big part of being an active Clerith or Cloti is "proving" that the other team is wrong. If the player can decide who Cloud likes, the player might decide that Cloud likes Tifa, and for Cleriths, that would be incorrect. Likewise for the aggressive Clotis, if you decide that Cloud likes Aerith, you're just wrong.

Here is the thing though, In my opinion the argument has shifted from "who does Cloud love" to "is Cloti confirmed canon or not". I feel as if the argument has been so one sided that the Aerith supporters have mostly been forced to argue that they've not definitively lost rather than that they're actually correct. I've seen a lot of people try to claim these days that "cloti is not canon" rather than "Clerith is canon".

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Good point.