Makoeyes987
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And it was later confirmed to be Sephiroth in Kingdom Hearts Final Mix, so it was never a romantic context in the first place.
SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke
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KindOfBlue
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Yeah, the actual quote is from a Kingdom Hearts ultimania, so not even about FF7 or the LTD for that matter
There is the quote of Nomura saying he doesn’t know if Cloud and Tifa were in a romantic relationship in the two years that followed FF7 before AC, but you’d have to ignore several quotes clarifying the nature of Cloud and Tifa’s feelings for one another before making the leap that some make, that “Cloud rejects Tifa for Aerith even though she’s dead because death doesn’t end relationships in fantasy and because Cloud considers Tifa as more of a sister, really…”
There is the quote of Nomura saying he doesn’t know if Cloud and Tifa were in a romantic relationship in the two years that followed FF7 before AC, but you’d have to ignore several quotes clarifying the nature of Cloud and Tifa’s feelings for one another before making the leap that some make, that “Cloud rejects Tifa for Aerith even though she’s dead because death doesn’t end relationships in fantasy and because Cloud considers Tifa as more of a sister, really…”
Thenir
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@Stiggie I can't find a reliable source for that specific quote other than fan blogs, but I have seen it often used as well by a CA fan on Reddit, apparently to support the idea that romance is up to the player, more properly to put to rest any conversation about the fact that the compilation - at least imo- leans toward Cloud x Tifa as endgame pairing.
I don't exclude this quote is real (but as ph14basicbitch said probably it's just a distortion of an old KH interview) anyway I wouldn't put too much weight on it.
For one because this interview dates back to when the compilation didn't even exist (and it matters), and then this sort of non-answer just shows that the devs had no intention to make these kind of revelations in an interview - especially one regarding KH that is a totally different universe than the actual FFVII one.
I don't exclude this quote is real (but as ph14basicbitch said probably it's just a distortion of an old KH interview) anyway I wouldn't put too much weight on it.
For one because this interview dates back to when the compilation didn't even exist (and it matters), and then this sort of non-answer just shows that the devs had no intention to make these kind of revelations in an interview - especially one regarding KH that is a totally different universe than the actual FFVII one.
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ph14basicbitch
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Implying Sephiroth hasn't been trying to jump Cloud's bones for 23 years
KindOfBlue
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KindOfBlue
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I’m predicting no matter what direction this LTD takes in the future, you’re gonna see some goalpost shifting to say that “actually, the original intent of the OG is what’s really canon, and according to the OG…”
Stiggie said:
Someone needs to put all these "Favorite LTD quotes by Nojima and Nomura" on a chronological timeline lol. Put down some ground rules to say that quotes that are 19 years old and have been overridden with new, more recent quotes and new launches cannot be used in debate anymore
Thing is, I also believe the creators and the company's goal posts are also internally shifting - with time, with profit requirements, with new technology, with new social norms etc.KindOfBlue said:
To say it's canon because it was that OG's intent is like, holding a 50-year old Nomura hostage to an idea he conceived when he was 26.
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Thenir
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It already happens everytime Zack or CC are mentioned
Oh god, this I cannot stand.
Whenever someone says "Ignore Crisis Core, you should read maiden to know what it canon" I kill a puppy.
Not the puppies!!! T_T Better do ten pushups next time, I promise you'll be fit by the end of the whole remake project.
LicoriceAllsorts
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When it comes to fanworks, I think it's fair for people to say things like "OG canon only" or "Remake canon compliant". You could even label it "English version compliant" versus "Japanese version compliant." Did Cloud and Co find President Shinra stabbed at his desk, or did Barret rescue him from certain death, only for them both to be skewered by Sephiroth? If, indeed, FFVIIR is a timeline shenanigans continuation of the Compilation and not a remake or re-set or whatever people want to call it, then everything in the OG happened first time around - the Remake doesn't replace it - and if people want to limit their canon to the OG part of the Compilation, what's to stop them?
KindOfBlue
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Exactly, I don’t even think the devs themselves thought that far ahead as to where the ships would go, they just liked the novelty of having two love interests and decided that one would die while the other would stick around. I get the sense that once they decided to expand the universe, they just wanted to add more context to what they’ve already established.
I’ll never understand why Maiden is used as some kind of super secret ninjutsu when it does nothing to discredit everything that’s been said about how Cloud feels…like, let’s say Aerith does fall for Cloud over Zack, isn’t that supposed to make her death even more tragic considering the later developments between Cloud and Tifa? And isn’t the whole point of the movie Cloud learning to forgive himself for his losses (which CC supplements by showcasing Zack) and embrace what he still has?
Thenir
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I have nothing against people wanting to discuss only about the OG, as long as the discussion revolves ONLY around the OG (though Japanese version should always come first, localizations created enough confusion even recently).
Personally I find myself often involved in debates where people choose very arbitraily what is canon or not. So CC is usually labelled as "not-canon/just fanservice/the devs are total incompetent for having had the audacity to conceive it", but then the end credits of KH, DoC Bradygame guidebook or whatever spin-off become canon. And for some reason they'll be relevant in the Remake but all the CC references won't, for no reason but because I say so. Honestly, it's getting exhausting.
When I try to point out that if 90% of that novel clashes with the following entries of the compilation and that it's the only one that wasn't referenced in the Remake, they reply that "only western fans are obsessed with canon". Which I find to be illogic by all means since it actually is the only clashing entry AND they use it exactly to establish a canonicity.
As @Stiggie said in a previous post the conversation really shifted to "both girls are canon love interests, it's up to the player" (which imo is inconsistent with the affection mechanics of the Remake). So having a line that supports Aerith's unconditional love for Cloud and that erases Zack from the picture is a way to support this prefrence, I guess.
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Eerie
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That's however not how it happened. It's once they decided to kill Aerith, they added Tifa to make her stick with the hero until the end. And said like that, this alone proves that they intended Tifa to be Cloud's canon choice - they started building the story that way and entwined their backstories so much that people often accused Tifa of not having one (hence the "she's not important" twist when she is one of the two heroines).
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Doesn't that novel says that Aerith "entrusted her feelings" to Tifa of something like that? Because Cloud only opened up his heart to Tifa? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems people are skipping parts of their very same bible...
KindOfBlue
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I mean it’s for this exact reason that I consider the OG and remake to be separate continuities as they have events that play out in conflicting ways but it’s also why we shouldn’t confuse continuity with canon, with canon being the lore that informs the story and continuity being how the events of the story play out. It’s common to use the two terms interchangeably and usually you can get away with that but I’d definitely treat FF7R as an exception.
For example, the novella that came out recently. Did that information exist when the OG was made? It wouldn’t surprise me if some of those ideas may have been thought of back then before being cut, but either way, the continuity of the OG does not include the events of Trace of Two Paths, as well as other Remake-specific events. But additions like that are still based on the canon of the whole FF7 universe, so I think it’s fair to at least treat additions like that as further insight into what the devs originally wanted to convey with the story.
As far as fanworks go I’d say they’ve got far more freedom to be loose with continuity, like maybe using the OG’s version of one event but the remake’s version of another. Not something I’d do, but far from the most outlandish thing I’ve heard of (y’all oldheads still need to educate me about some weird infamous Cloud and Aerith fanfiction, something about ghost sex and the Lifestream?)
Pretty much what I said but in a different order lol so I imagine the conversation went like this:
“Nah, we can’t kill the Black guy, it’s too obvious. So…the flower girl.”
“We’ll need another chick for these horny teenagers to get off to, though.”
“Well, we can take some leftover ideas from the first girl, add some new stuff, etc. etc.”
“Okay, so hear me out. We can’t make her the mysterious new girl, we already have that. So we make the second girl…the childhood friend.”
“Yes, YES! *snorts cocaine* So we can kill one girl and make the other one the ACTUAL ‘first girl’. We’ll reveal our MC is just as horny for her as the players will be!”
“Hold up. TWO love interests? So we can have our cake…AND eat it too?!”
Didn't Nomura or someone say he had to replay the game to remember the story because he wasn't even sure how they got from Midgar to Kalm or something?
Yeah, the notion that these people had a concrete idea concerning what was and was not canon (or if anything is canon) that hasn't changed in over 2 decades, is absurd. These guys thought that FFVII was just a game like all the others they've made that started at the intro screen and ended with the credits and outside of that anything goes, believe what you want, they don't care.
Hell, they even lost the high-res renderings of the backgrounds for FFIX, that's how little care they took for the potential futures of these franchises and we think they held firm unshakable beliefs concerning events that weren't depicted in the game? Bloody of course they didn't.
KindOfBlue
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If I remember correctly Aerith was slightly jealous that she couldn’t restore Cloud the way Tifa could, so I’d say if anybody brings up Tifa being jealous of Aerith then they’re even unless they wanna backtrack and say Maiden isn’t canon…I dunno if that’s the only instance of Aerith showing jealousy as she seems pretty supportive of them but in the end, it all falls back to how Cloud feels
Speaking of Nomura, could somebody clarify when exactly he made the quote about not knowing Cloud and Tifa’s relationship status. Was this before or after “Case of Tifa”?
I think it was before, wasn't that around the time of Advent Children?