SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Can you call it gaslighting if it's not done deliberately?

 

[Enthralled]

I think someone mentioned it before (Ody?) that they would have been peeved if they had gone with the original version of Cloud not following through with the hug, I can understand that, if someone had been specifically going out of their way to get Cloud and Tifa for c14 only to be teased with a hug and not have it happen that could be frustrating, I'm glad Nojima was like noooo have a hug and noooo we're keeping the L word in Aerith scene!

Yea, the fact these scenes are rewards for player choice makes it hard to really imagine them being benign. Like I guess one could argue that Cloud is just a friend to Tifa or that his love for Aerith is totally not real but probably not. Especially since Square admitted to partly structuring the episode to placate LT debates.

Can you call it gaslighting if it's not done deliberately?

I did only say she feels gaslighted. I dunno what other word to use. IIRC the official explanation is she starts to doubt her own recollection due to her injuries. Cloud would obviously not do it on purpose, nor would he even pick up on it being done because I doubt Tifa will be very direct with her issues.

 

[LNK]

I agree it is one of mine as well. However, the way they said that Cloud wanted to be like an adult and comfort Tifa like Barrett, right after the Sector 7 plate falling down onto the slums, I felt it kinda took a bit of the romance out of it. Don't get me wrong it is definitely a sweet moment shared between them.

Looking at the scene at face value at first I did see a lot of romance in that scene, but I kinda feel that after more information was released it kind diminished the scene slightly. I will admit that it did show Tifa and Cloud making forward progress

I didn't look at that scene as much of romance. I thought it was mostly him (finally) consoling his long time friend

Edit: who he does have feelings for

 

[Strangelove]

They literally shared Cloud there.

polycule confirmed

a bold, progressive new direction for ff7

 

[Graymouse]

I didn't look at that scene as much of romance. I thought it was mostly him (finally) consoling his long time friend

See, perhaps this is my unrelenting bias towards wanting a Tifa and Cloud match up. I guess that is why I am feeling that way. It is good from time to time to be knocked off your pedestal and be grounded once in a while. Although I don't think anyone like to be brought down a notch or two.

I am a such a sucker for an old childhood friendship turns to love type of story anyways. LoL

 

[Enthralled]

See, perhaps this is my unrelenting bias towards wanting a Tifa and Cloud match up. I guess that is why I am feeling that way. It is good from time to time to be knocked off your pedestal and be grounded once in a while. Although I don't think anyone like to be brought down a notch or two.

I am a such a sucker for an old childhood friendship turns to love type of story anyways. LoL

I am your opposite. I tend to not care for "childhood friend" stories because it feels like they skimp on development. So I like this way more. And also I think if you have another girl who he has to "NOOOO" for when she dies relatively soon it's not unfair to pump the brakes a little. We're like a couple, one that's odd.

 

[LNK]

See, perhaps this is my unrelenting bias towards wanting a Tifa and Cloud match up. I guess that is why I am feeling that way. It is good from time to time to be knocked off your pedestal and be grounded once in a while. Although I don't think anyone like to be brought down a notch or two.

I am a such a sucker for an old childhood friendship turns to love type of story anyways. LoL

I mean, it looks like we're still gonna get them matching up. But, not every scene with them has to have romantic touches to push them towards it. Their story isn't just centered on each other.

 

[Graymouse]

I am your opposite. I tend to not care for "childhood friend" stories because it feels like they skimp on development. So I like this way more. And also I think if you have another girl who he has to "NOOOO" for when she dies relatively soon it's not unfair to pump the brakes a little. We're like a couple, one that's odd.

I see your point.

I guess the childhood friend love story you feel is kinda of a cheap plot point that is over used. A true and tried trope that is in most JRPG storytelling in one way of the other. I can agree to that! Absolutely. Like I said above that is one of my favorite types of storytelling.

You do bring up an excellent point that I haven't thought of though. The dynamics between Aerith and Cloud are very different in this game and the OG. It is like night and day. Like everyone has said before, I think she knows more than what she is leading on to.

It will be tragic to see Aerith and Cloud build a relationship up to a point where there can possible be romance involved and then Aerith dies. In all honestly this could be a true and tried trope as well. In this game though I don't think Aerith and Cloud will reach the romantic point because Aerith is pumping the brakes and stopping it before Cloud could even get out the gate. Strange, honestly and of course poor Cloud all caught up in this.

 

[Odysseus]

I mean, it looks like we're still gonna get them matching up. But, not every scene with them has to have romantic touches to push them towards it. Their story isn't just centered on each other.

I was happy with Tifa's scene because it gave her a chance to let out her grief and frustration in a way the original never did. It is a very moving scene. I know the Clotis will be happy with it for shipping reasons, but I'd rather that not just become what that scene was about, you know?

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Eh, it's pretty fair to not take romantic tones from the Tifa scene, especially in comparison to Aerith's scene. One explicitly has dialogue about romantic love and one doesn't. Tifa's scene reflecting romantic tones is something that could be supported by the romanticism attributed earlier in the game in regards to their overall relationship, but a hug is still not an explicit romantic action anyway. The fact that Nojima had to step in and green-light this expression of Cloud's character through that hug puts me in a position that the scene itself didn't have the initial goal of reflecting romanticism specifically. It was much more about Cloud's personality and that shared expression of grief with Tifa. Of course, that never stops anyone from feeling romantic undertones, but it doesn't seem to have been the objective. The same could be said for Aerith's scene despite romantic love literally being a part of their conversation—it just links to a bigger problem to face later on, the objective mainly spelling out Aerith's death/knowledge and Cloud's state of being.

On that note, I just...I'm a bit confused here. Am I the only one who is seeing the apparent misdirected intention in Aerith's "don't fall in love with me" dialogue in that scene? Aerith pointing out his feelings "not being real" seems to me an obvious red herring of some sort. We know that Cloud isn't himself and there's a bunch of circumstances dealing with this, but, has it not been established that he retained those experiences and memories even after the Lifestream sequence? I always thought this part of Cloud's story was to point out that the important bonds and memories he created in those moments overcame the falsification given due to Jenova and the Mako poisoning. If this isn't true, what does that say, then, about his relationship with everyone else in the group? Are those feelings of friendship and camaraderie not real, too? That can't be the point in all this.

I know FFVII ain't a hallmark channel movie, but good lord, I can't imagine they would seriously go forward with the meaning that everything he feels and experienced actually wasn't real and impacted him by the end of it. That simply isn't congruent to what is expressed after the fact or just, what FFVII invests its meaning in—this is in comparison to the OG + Compilation, but I assume the important themes and meanings there are intended to be held through the Remake, too. As far as I'm concerned, it just reinforces the fact that Cloud is going to feel whatever he does regardless of his state of mind. It's going to be real enough if he has the capacity to cherish those feelings and memories when moving forward.

 

[Graymouse]

Eh, it's pretty fair to not take romantic tones from the Tifa scene, especially in comparison to Aerith's scene. One explicitly has dialogue about romantic love and one doesn't. Tifa's scene reflecting romantic tones is something that could be supported by the romanticism attributed earlier in the game in regards to their overall relationship, but a hug is still not an explicit romantic action anyway. The fact that Nojima had to step in and green-light this expression of Cloud's character through that hug puts me in a position that the scene itself didn't have the initial goal of reflecting romanticism specifically. It was much more about Cloud's personality and that shared expression of grief with Tifa. Of course, that never stops anyone from feeling romantic undertones, but it doesn't seem to have been the objective. The same could be said for Aerith's scene despite romantic love literally being a part of their conversation—it just links to a bigger problem to face later on, the objective mainly spelling out Aerith's death/knowledge and Cloud's state of being.

On that note, I just...I'm a bit confused here. Am I the only one who is seeing the apparent misdirected intention in Aerith's "don't fall in love with me" dialogue in that scene? Aerith pointing out his feelings "not being real" seems to me an obvious red herring of some sort. We know that Cloud isn't himself and there's a bunch of circumstances dealing with this, but, has it not been established that he retained those experiences and memories even after the Lifestream sequence? I always thought this part of Cloud's story was to point out that the important bonds and memories he created in those moments overcame the falsification given due to Jenova and the Mako poisoning. If this isn't true, what does that say, then, about his relationship with everyone else in the group? Are those feelings of friendship and camaraderie not real, too? That can't be the point in all this.

I know FFVII ain't a hallmark channel movie, but good lord, I can't imagine they would seriously go forward with the meaning that everything he feels and experienced actually wasn't real and impacted him by the end of it. That simply isn't congruent to what is expressed after the fact or just, what FFVII invests its meaning in—this is in comparison to the OG + Compilation, but I assume the important themes and meanings there are intended to be held through the Remake, too. As far as I'm concerned, it just reinforces the fact that Cloud is going to feel whatever he does regardless of his state of mind. It's going to be real enough if he has the capacity to cherish those feelings and memories when moving forward.

Regarding, Aerith's CH14 scene. It is my belief that the reason Aerith said that line of "don't fall in love with me, because it is not real" is that during CH13 when Aerith is rescuing Marlene at the Seventh Heaven, Marlene did point out to Aerith the flower that Cloud gave to Tifa.

The little scene when Aerith looked at the flower and smiled. It was in that moment when Aerith realized how important Tifa is to Cloud. There are other interactions between Aerith and Cloud regarding Tifa that point to this as well. Also, Aerith herself told Cloud at their first meeting what the flower stood for, also can point to this as well. This is what I believe is why I feel Aerith is pushing cloud away.

Not because Aerith doesn't love Cloud, it is because she does. She know her fate and she doesn't want Cloud to be hurt when she dies. I think this is Aerith's compassion towards Cloud. She feels that Tifa can fill the void and heal Cloud at his darkest hour. Which as we all know in the late game that she does.

 

[billy22]

Regarding, Aerith's CH14 scene. It is my belief that the reason Aerith said that line of "don't fall in love with me, because it is not real" is that during CH13 when Aerith is rescuing Marlene at the Seventh Heaven, Marlene did point out to Aerith the flower that Cloud gave to Tifa.

I agree that there is a lot of significance from that line in Aerith's scene. I voiced my opinion on that several pages back.

But I don't think it has anything to do with Marlene pointing out a flower, based on some vague facial expressions, and equating that to Aerith 'knowing' Cloud/Tifa are a thing.

When they are about to leave the bar and slums that are inevitably doomed to the plate falling, Marlene says "You smell like flowers" and points to the flower. Aerith sees it, smiles, and they leave. I think it is more symbolic. IE "Aerith (the flower) is a part of this now (Avalanche)." And then what happens next? She gets kidnapped immediately afterwards, and everyone left from Avalanche goes to save her.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Right, but I'm not really speaking on Aerith's reasons for saying what she does—character-wise she has her reasons for doing so. I'm more speaking how it seems that people believe the take away from this is that she is actually correct.

I agree that there is a lot of significance from that line in Aerith's scene. I voiced my opinion on that several pages back.

But I don't think it has anything to do with Marlene pointing out a flower, based on some vague facial expressions, and equating that to Aerith 'knowing' Cloud/Tifa are a thing.

When they are about to leave the bar and slums that are inevitably doomed to the plate falling, Marlene says "You smell like flowers" and points to the flower. Aerith sees it, smiles, and they leave. I think it is more symbolic. IE "Aerith (the flower) is a part of this now (Avalanche)." And then what happens next? She gets kidnapped immediately afterwards, and everyone left from Avalanche goes to save her.

As interesting as that is, if we're just talking about that specific scene, you do have to consider the context of which that specific flower holds, especially when Aerith is the one to prod at Cloud about who he gave it to. Aerith may symbolize flowers when appropriate, but that metaphorical application isn't always present. There's much more context to that specific flower than what that would entail, even for the means Aerith has to recognize it and make the connection herself.

 

[Cat on Mars]

It is just that Tifa is going to force Cloud to tell his side of the story and he will have to confront that part of his psyche. It could either like you said tear them apart or bring them even closer together. Depending on how well SE does the story.

Edited to add, I wonder if Tifa will tell Cloud the truth here and there........

To be honest, I'm not sure Tifa knows "the truth" herself, being unconscious during the Nibelheim incident and awakening in Midgar, totally unaware that Cloud was there. And I doubt Tifa wanted to think too much about the whole ordeal neither. I have the feeling she tried not to think and just work, work, work instead and pushed her emotions down.

Yeah, do you guys get the feeling that SE is trying to combine CC, FF7, and AC into one cohesive story! OMG! Is that even possible. Can SE tell a cohesive story? I am so ready for this! Honestly. It took the 23 damn years.

Yes, I do. When they presented the trailers I had the feeling they would try to pick parts of the Compilation to patch some holes in the OG and develop a bit more FFVII's world. I, for one, I'm thrilled to know useless info like what do people eat. I wondered for years if people eat chocobos or not

 

[Graymouse]

I agree that there is a lot of significance from that line in Aerith's scene. I voiced my opinion on that several pages back.

But I don't think it has anything to do with Marlene pointing out a flower, based on some vague facial expressions, and equating that to Aerith 'knowing' Cloud/Tifa are a thing.

When they are about to leave the bar and slums that are inevitably doomed to the plate falling, Marlene says "You smell like flowers" and points to the flower. Aerith sees it, smiles, and they leave. I think it is more symbolic. IE "Aerith (the flower) is a part of this now (Avalanche)." And then what happens next? She gets kidnapped immediately afterwards, and everyone left from Avalanche goes to save her.

Good point, but what I am also basing this off of is the little conversations where Cloud and Aerith are walking back to the Sector 7 slums. He has a headache, and a flash of Tifa going to Mt. Nible, I assume. Where Aerith asks about Tifa, after Cloud says her name after the headache sequence. This is when Aerith finds out about Tifa. Besides, when Cloud said that she is not his girlfriend, Aerith did say but she is someone special to Cloud.

So the scene with the smile when she see the flower in the Tifa's bar and with the contex of the earlier conversation it could be interpreted as Aerith knows, Tifa is very special to Cloud.

Edited to correct spelling of Mt Nible

 

[billy22]

Good point, but what I am also basing this off of is the little conversations where Cloud and Aerith are walking back to the Sector 7 slums. He has a headache, and a flash of Tifa going to Mt. Neeble, I assume. Where Aerith asks about Tifa, after Cloud says her name after the headache sequence. This is when Aerith finds out about Tifa. Besides, when Cloud said that she is not his girlfriend, Aerith did say but she is someone special to Cloud.

So the scene with the smile when she see the flower in the Tifa's bar and with the contex of the earlier conversation it could be interpreted as Aerith knows, Tifa is special to Cloud.

As interesting as that is, if we're just talking about that specific scene, you do have to consider the context of which that specific flower holds, especially when Aerith is the one to prod at Cloud about who he gave it to. Aerith may symbolize flowers when appropriate, but that metaphorical application isn't always present. There's much more context to that specific flower than what that would entail, even for the means Aerith has to recognize it and make the connection herself.

She had just finished running through a mass panic of people with exploding helicopters and fire, was going to be crushed to death by the plate, is holding a distraught child in her arms, and was moments away from being kidnapped. I hardly think when she saw the flower the thought "Aww, Cloud took that flower I gave him and gave it to Tifa that cute girl and my bestie who works here in the Avalanche hideout and I remember that flashback he had of her back in the Church slums which was cute also I think it's great that they're together now" popped into her head.

 

[LNK]

To be honest, I'm not sure Tifa knows "the truth" herself, being unconscious during the Nibelheim incident and awakening in Midgar, totally unaware that Cloud was there. And I doubt Tifa wanted to think too much about the whole ordeal neither. I have the feeling she tried not to think and just work, work, work instead and pushed her emotions down.



Yes, I do. When they presented the trailers I had the feeling they would try to pick parts of the Compilation to patch some holes in the OG and develop a bit more FFVII's world. I, for one, I'm thrilled to know useless info like what do people eat. I wondered for years if people eat chocobos or not

In ff15, the meat tasted like chocobo turds. At least according to Libertus

 

[Eerie]

I agree it is one of mine as well. However, the way they said that Cloud wanted to be like an adult and comfort Tifa like Barrett, right after the Sector 7 plate falling down onto the slums, I felt it kinda took a bit of the romance out of it. Don't get me wrong it is definitely a sweet moment shared between them.

Looking at the scene at face value at first I did see a lot of romance in that scene, but I kinda feel that after more information was released it kind diminished the scene slightly. I will admit that it did show Tifa and Cloud making forward progress

It's funny because for me, it was the reverse lol. It was a great emotional moment, but not so romantic, but what made it really worth it was indeed Cloud's build up from Jessie's death and his determination to learn how to console Tifa. I find this irresistible LOL. This is just so cute to me. I'm like "good boy" *pats head* To me it showed that Cloud really wanted to progress and learn and grow up, for Tifa, so it made the scene even better (and then, it was such a cloti scene in itself).

For Aerith, the JP says that "it's pointless", and I believe the Ultimania points at it because she senses that she is going to die (hence her prayer pose just like in the OG when she is killed). Learning that, I feel that this is less about Cloud's mental state rather than her death. I am not sure that she knows just how much Cloud is fucked up in the head, so to speak. I think she must understand that he's having this facade that she tries to crack, but I don't think she knows the real Cloud, personally. It was an important point in the OG that she was trying to know him and that she didn't have the time before her death.

As for the next part, someone mentioned that it could be Aerith who explains the Sephiroth deal, rather than Cloud, which would avoid I guess the rift between Cloud and Tifa and maybe allow to confront their memories in more subtil ways before the Lifestream scene. I don't know about that, I still think it's a big deal, but it could be changed.

 

[LNK]

She was about to be crushed to death, is holding a distraught child in her arms, and was moments away from being kidnapped. I hardly think when she saw the flower the thought "Aww, Cloud took that flower I gave him and gave it to Tifa that cute girl and my bestie who works here in the Avalanche hideout and I remember that flashback he had of her back in the Church slums which was cute also I think it's great that they're together now."

True,
But then Aerith also wouldn't have even allowed Marlene to show her the flower. She would've just grabbed Marlene and rushed out

 

[MelodicEnigma]

She was about to be crushed to death, is holding a distraught child in her arms, and was moments away from being kidnapped. I hardly think when she saw the flower the thought "Aww, Cloud took that flower I gave him and gave it to Tifa that cute girl and my bestie who works here in the Avalanche hideout and I remember that flashback he had of her back in the Church slums which was cute also I think it's great that they're together now."

How you got that from a small, knowing smile is interesting to say the least. lol Her having that recognition doesn't come into conflict for what she was doing at that moment, which also involves her actually just holding Marlene's hand and having a conversation with her as they walk not so quickly to the door.

 

[null]

She had just finished running through a mass panic of people with exploding helicopters and fire, was going to be crushed to death by the plate, is holding a distraught child in her arms, and was moments away from being kidnapped. I hardly think when she saw the flower the thought "Aww, Cloud took that flower I gave him and gave it to Tifa that cute girl and my bestie who works here in the Avalanche hideout and I remember that flashback he had of her back in the Church slums which was cute also I think it's great that they're together now" popped into her head.

I still have this scene in a browser tab so I'll just link it here in case anyone's interested.

Yeah, that cinematography combined with the music. Aerith's body language. She does not look happy at all in my opinion. It's kind of gut wrenching to be honest.

 

[Cat on Mars]

In ff15, the meat tasted like chocobo turds. At least according to Libertus

Oh, ok. I haven't played XV so thank for the info...
...wait a sec, how did he learnt that? You know what, I don't want to know.

 

[Graymouse]

She was about to be crushed to death, is holding a distraught child in her arms, and was moments away from being kidnapped. I hardly think when she saw the flower the thought "Aww, Cloud took that flower I gave him and gave it to Tifa that cute girl and my bestie who works here in the Avalanche hideout and I remember that flashback he had of her back in the Church slums which was cute also I think it's great that they're together now."

Alright, so you are using Aerith's urgency to get out to diminish that scene. If that is the case then why in the world did Aerith stay in the bar for so long. If there was true urgency like you claimed Aerith, like any normal person would grab Marelene and get out of dodge. (There was some urgency yes, but not like what you are saying.) Aerith didn't know that the plate was going to drop because Avalanche was up their trying to prevent it. It hasn't happened her goal....Her promise to Tifa was to get Marlene out and to somewhere safe.

That entire scene is not just about the flower in the vase. It is about Aerith connecting with Marlene on a different level and during the connection Marlene point out the flower to Aerith because that is what Aerith smelled like. The fact that the flower gave Aerith pause, in her urgency says a lot and it was great character building.

 

[LNK]

Oh, ok. I haven't played XV so thank for the info...
...wait a sec, how did he learnt that? You know what, I don't want to know.

My mistake, I meant the ff15 universe. That was said in the movie Kingsglaive

 

[LNK]

I still have this scene in a browser tab so I'll just link it here in case anyone's interested.

Yeah, that cinematography combined with the music. Aerith's body language. She does not look happy at all in my opinion. It's kind of gut wrenching to be honest.

Ehhh, I think this is just another one of those vague moments that could go either way. The song title from the soundtrack is "Aerith and Marlene - A familiar flower."

Marlene doesn't specifically say that the flower was given to Tifa. She just calls it "our flower." Maybe Aerith thinks it was given to Marlene

Edit: thanks for making me tear up again haha