SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Enthralled]

Look, last night wasn't my proudest moment on the forums. I caught on maybe a bit to late, on what you were trying to do. I want you to know that I wasn't ganging up on that person. I was just presenting counterpoints to his points. However, it seemed like he didn't want to hear my points. I took his point on board. I was never hiding that I have a huge bias towards Tifa. However, I do acknowledge that there are points where Aerith shippers point of view as well. I mean just the very fact that this forum exists, is that we all love and cherish this game, and we can all have different point of views but it works both ways. Both parties has to be willing to listen to the others points and not try to diminish each other. WIth that person I didn't feel that was happening on his part.

We've been chatting without incident so I don't hold it against you. But my oh my is it weird to see people think they totally owned me when I was quite far away lol.

I just really did not get how saying the dance-battle counts as Cloud-Aerith scene was controversial. It seemed to be a largely semantic objection. Clerith shipper says "he danced FOR Aerith!" and Cloti says "nooo it was to get Tifa back really." The scene does in fact frame it as for and caused by Aerith, but we also know it is to get Tifa back and not send Aerith alone into the belly of the beast.

So "he did not only dance for Aerith but she still got him to" is totally fair, and the making-him element is why people cite it as a CloudxAerith moment. She pulls him out of his shell, it's set in an amorous atmosphere, she's...REALLY enjoying herself, and the fact it's to do a good thing is just her keeping him on the right path like Mom always wanted a girl to do. Takes much more effort to naysay this imho.

now, Cloud and Tifa. I am divided and I hope this gets dealt with later on. As I said I liked how the Hug was mostly about Cloud being good to Tifa just as a person or as a friend. Since that is an aspect of their relationship and always was. But I am less enthused by how often they used 'saving her' for shipbait. Felt tackly. I hope it was done for a deliberate character reason beyond this.

 

[LNK]

It was already correct.

What do you think about how Jessie was presented in the first half. I think Jessie might of beat out Tifa and Aerith if she was still alive. She was aggressive flirtatious toward Cloud the entire time!

The gist of how I feel about her? I thought she was annoying at times, but that's from my personal perspective (not Cloud's) if you really wanna hear about Jessie, you should check out the Clessie club. There's a few people on this forum who love her, just as much as the people who love Aerith and Tifa

 

[Graymouse]

We've been chatting without incident so I don't hold it against you. But my oh my is it weird to see people think they totally owned me when I was quite far away lol.

I just really did not get how saying the dance-battle counts as Cloud-Aerith scene was controversial. It seemed to be a largely semantic objection. Clerith shipper says "he danced FOR Aerith!" and Cloti says "nooo it was to get Tifa back really." The scene does in fact frame it as for and caused by Aerith, but we also know it is to get Tifa back and not send Aerith alone into the belly of the beast.

So "he did not only dance for Aerith but she still got him to" is totally fair, and the making-him element is why people cite it as a CloudxAerith moment. She pulls him out of his shell, it's set in an amorous atmosphere, she's...REALLY enjoying herself, and the fact it's to do a good thing is just her keeping him on the right path like Mom always wanted a girl to do. Takes much more effort to naysay this imho.

now, Cloud and Tifa. I am divided and I hope this gets dealt with later on. As I said I liked how the Hug was mostly about Cloud being good to Tifa just as a person or as a friend. Since that is an aspect of their relationship and always was. But I am less enthused by how often they used 'saving her' for shipbait. Felt tackly. I hope it was done for a deliberate character reason beyond this.

I am curious though, why did you use that article as evidence that the song was romantic. I know that the song was written with a romance underscore, but honestly I don't really see that, unless well.

Edited to add: There is better evidence out there you know.

 

[Enthralled]

I am curious though, why did you use that article as evidence that the song was romantic. I know that the song was written with a romance underscore, but honestly I don't really see that, unless well.

Because Toriyama's take on the scene, and how it is musically framed, holds more weight than what had been established 5 pages prior in a forum. That's blunt but all I can really say. And I do think I was going up against motivated reasoning, so citing a dev would prove dispiriting to that. And I think it was.

I suppose I don't really see the value in arguing less is happening in that scene as long as its consistent with what we're shown and not wildly contradictory to the story overall, characters, so on and so forth.

But again: "I am divided and I hope this gets dealt with later on. As I said I liked how the Hug was mostly about Cloud being good to Tifa just as a person or as a friend. Since that is an aspect of their relationship and always was. But I am less enthused by how often they used saving her for shipbait. Felt tackly. I hope it was done for a deliberate character reason beyond this. "

 

[Cat on Mars]

too many notifications but if you wish...hm, a lot of noise and anger at what I think are blaise statements but to answer the relevant: yes when you keep cutting back to something or someone visually it's meant to establish their significance to a scene or event. Persistent cuts back to them also gives a sense of something rising or intensifying too. And an esoteric reading to the contrary of that should be more convincing than what was offerred. Not really worth it. I'd say again the fact this was upvoted is just bizarre. It imposes no real challenge.

You are welcome to tell me why they cut back to Aerith and gave her a prominent role in instigating this dance-off if we are to glean nothing from their relationship from it.

Oh, that's rich coming from you- someone who bemoaned our dismissiveness and then... acts like this. Without even touching the point I was making while parroting the same stuff again.
This thread is a trip.
I'll resume my shitposting schedule since very liitle debate is actually happening here.

Now, a reminder for everyone:

 

[Graymouse]

Because Toriyama's take on the scene, and how it is musically framed, holds more weight than what had been established 5 pages prior in a forum. That's blunt but all I can really say. And I do think I was going up against motivated reasoning, so citing a dev would prove dispiriting to that. And I think it was.

I suppose I don't really see the value in arguing less is happening in that scene as long as its consistent with what we're shown and not wildly contradictory to the story overall, characters, so on and so forth.

But again: "I am divided and I hope this gets dealt with later on. As I said I liked how the Hug was mostly about Cloud being good to Tifa just as a person or as a friend. Since that is an aspect of their relationship and always was. But I am less enthused by how often they used saving her for shipbait. Felt tackly. I hope it was done for a deliberate character reason beyond this. "

Funny that you said that. I am a firm believer that music in video games play a major role in how the player reacts to a certain scene. In fact it can sometimes out shine the characters themselves. That is my reasoning behind saying that particular scene didn't have any romantic annotations to it.

 

[Enthralled]

Oh, that's rich coming from you- someone who bemoaned our dismissiveness and then... acts like this. Without even engaging in the point I was making while parroting the same stuff again.
This thread is a trip.
I'll resume my shitposting schedule since very liitle debate is actually happening here.

Now, a reminder for everyone:

A word about shitposters. They're not exactly tight-lipped, steely individuals when it comes down to it. The point you were making was that because I said visual storytelling isn't scientific that we can't be reasonably sure about things. I think that's foolish. Yes interpretation plays a role but my interpretation is, well, a good one if I do say so myself. It's not very complicated, it takes into account all the variables I can see.

Perfectly happy to leave it here, me just saying why I trust my take.

Funny that you said that. I am a firm believer that music in video games play a major role in how the player reacts to a certain scene. In fact it can sometimes out shine the characters themselves. That is my reasoning behind saying that particular scene didn't have any romantic annotations to it.

Aerith's panting is too on the nose for me to agree. It's like when Cloud's pupils dilate for the red dress. But even aside, it is largely Aerith Induced Character Growth so the Clerith shippers will love it.
I am pretty chill about what counts as a "ship scene." Basically if it involves or comments on the two and the shippers like it it's in. Shipping is about enjoying seeing two people bring things out in one another, and when it departs from that is when we end up with factions practicing narrative alchemy.

 

[null]

It was already correct.

What do you think about how Jessie was presented in the first half. I think Jessie might of beat out Tifa and Aerith if she was still alive. She was aggressive flirtatious toward Cloud the entire time!

I wanted to whore Cloud out to Jessie so bad. Would have gladly settled this right out the gate.

Do you think she was getting somewhere with Cloud? I thought it was telling that Tifa immediately started nailbiting over Aerith, but didn't seem to acknowledge Jessie at all.

 

[Graymouse]

A word about shitposters. They're not exactly tight-lipped, steely individuals when it comes down to it. The point you were making was that because I said visual storytelling isn't scientific that we can't be reasonably sure about things. I think that's foolish. Yes interpretation plays a role but my interpretation is, well, a good one if I do say so myself. It's not very complicated, it takes into account all the variables I can see.

Perfectly happy to leave it here, me just saying why I trust my take.


Aerith's panting is too on the nose for me to agree. It's like when Cloud's pupils dilate for the red dress. But even aside, it is largely Aerith Induced Character Growth so the Clerith shippers will love it.
I am pretty chill about what counts as a "ship scene." Basically if it involves or comments on the two and the shippers like it it's in. Shipping is about enjoying seeing two people bring things out in one another, and when it departs from that is when we end up with factions practicing narrative alchemy.

Interesting, when I played through that part I didn't get Aerith panting like that at all. So, maybe that is hidden high affection scene. I think that is where the disconnect is coming from. Research must be done.

 

[a_apple]

Eh, it's pretty fair to not take romantic tones from the Tifa scene, especially in comparison to Aerith's scene. One explicitly has dialogue about romantic love and one doesn't. Tifa's scene reflecting romantic tones is something that could be supported by the romanticism attributed earlier in the game in regards to their overall relationship, but a hug is still not an explicit romantic action anyway. The fact that Nojima had to step in and green-light this expression of Cloud's character through that hug puts me in a position that the scene itself didn't have the initial goal of reflecting romanticism specifically. It was much more about Cloud's personality and that shared expression of grief with Tifa. Of course, that never stops anyone from feeling romantic undertones, but it doesn't seem to have been the objective. The same could be said for Aerith's scene despite romantic love literally being a part of their conversation—it just links to a bigger problem to face later on, the objective mainly spelling out Aerith's death/knowledge and Cloud's state of being.

On that note, I just...I'm a bit confused here. Am I the only one who is seeing the apparent misdirected intention in Aerith's "don't fall in love with me" dialogue in that scene? Aerith pointing out his feelings "not being real" seems to me an obvious red herring of some sort. We know that Cloud isn't himself and there's a bunch of circumstances dealing with this, but, has it not been established that he retained those experiences and memories even after the Lifestream sequence? I always thought this part of Cloud's story was to point out that the important bonds and memories he created in those moments overcame the falsification given due to Jenova and the Mako poisoning. If this isn't true, what does that say, then, about his relationship with everyone else in the group? Are those feelings of friendship and camaraderie not real, too? That can't be the point in all this.

I know FFVII ain't a hallmark channel movie, but good lord, I can't imagine they would seriously go forward with the meaning that everything he feels and experienced actually wasn't real and impacted him by the end of it. That simply isn't congruent to what is expressed after the fact or just, what FFVII invests its meaning in—this is in comparison to the OG + Compilation, but I assume the important themes and meanings there are intended to be held through the Remake, too. As far as I'm concerned, it just reinforces the fact that Cloud is going to feel whatever he does regardless of his state of mind. It's going to be real enough if he has the capacity to cherish those feelings and memories when moving forward.

I would say the way how the hug was shot and how the music was used also having Cloud loose himself so much in the moment that he starts to hug a bit too hard makes it seem romantic imo

 

[Graymouse]

I wanted to whore Cloud out to Jessie so bad. Would have gladly settled this right out the gate.

Do you think she was getting somewhere with Cloud? I thought it was telling that Tifa immediately started nailbiting over Aerith, but didn't seem to acknowledge Jessie at all.

I kinda agree with what Pandemonium was saying about she is was kinda annoying and pushy. I think this comes through from my personal life experiences rather than a shippers (cringe) point of view.

I will say though I thought their reactions were cute between them but I felt that Jessie was just trying to get laid. Biggs needs to work that angle honestly.

 

[Graymouse]

I would say the way how the hug was shot and how the music was used also having Cloud loose himself so much in the moment that he starts to hug a bit too hard makes it seem romantic imo

I think I might seem bias about this to some on here. I have to agree. The music in that scene really sold it for me. Tifa's theme was spot on!

 

[Cat on Mars]

I think I might seem bias about this to some on here. I have to agree. The music in that scene really sold it for me. Tifa's theme was spot on!

Tifa's theme wasn't one of my favorites back then, I liked Aerith's and Cloud's themes better. Now I just love the Remake version and can't get enough of it. What kind of sorcery is this?!

A word about shitposters. They're not exactly tight-lipped, steely individuals when it comes down to it.

You salty. That's not cool, my dude.

The point you were making was that because I said visual storytelling isn't scientific that we can't be reasonably sure about things. I think that's foolish. Yes interpretation plays a role but my interpretation is, well, a good one if I do say so myself. It's not very complicated, it takes into account all the variables I can see.
Perfectly happy to leave it here, me just saying why I trust my take.

Glad you're graced us with your insight in visual storytelling, rooted in your very unbiased opinions and great understanding of the medium backed by your extensive credentials, unlike our clearly irrational views. Do you want upvotes?

 

[LNK]

Tifa's theme wasn't one of my favorites back then, I liked Aerith's and Cloud's themes better. Now I just love the Remake version and can't get enough of it. What kind of sorcery is this?!

I like all the variations to Tifa and Aerith's themes

 

[Graymouse]

I like all the variations to Tifa and Aerith's themes

Probably goes without saying, I have the Tifa's dynamic Theme on my PS4. I just park on the home screen and let it play while doing stuff aournd the house.

 

[Graymouse]

Love this shot, where she is talking to Cloud.

 

[LNK]

Probably goes without saying, I have the Tifa's dynamic Theme on my PS4. I just park on the home screen and let it play while doing stuff aournd the house.

Very cool

 

[Cat on Mars]

Since I tend to find all her shots cute, the CUTEST are saved in all caps and... well, this is an actual screenshot of my FFVII Remake folder. You get the idea.

 

[Chaoticgumbo]

I would say the way how the hug was shot and how the music was used also having Cloud loose himself so much in the moment that he starts to hug a bit too hard makes it seem romantic imo

Agreed. The way he ended up holding her really tight, letting all his reservations and showing his true self, was pretty romantic to me. That’s how their romance works, showing each other their emotions “without words”.

 

[Master Bates]

I wanted to whore Cloud out to Jessie so bad. Would have gladly settled this right out the gate.

Do you think she was getting somewhere with Cloud? I thought it was telling that Tifa immediately started nailbiting over Aerith, but didn't seem to acknowledge Jessie at all.

Timeline shenanigans. This Tifa has vague memories from the OG timeline. She sees Aerith becomes a point of the triangle while Jessie is just a blip on the radar. Hence.

 

[Graymouse]

Cloud you sly dog.....



I think those of us who are pro Tifa and Cloud can say that this is her best character model ever.

 

[Graymouse]

This one also. Because why not! One of my favorite in the entire game! Can you hear "Tifa's Theme" Playing in the background!



Actually I didn't realize how close they got there. I mean he is really squeezing her. I don't see any daylight in between them! This is not a friend-zone hug for sure!

 

[Cat on Mars]

That scene... it's so emotionally raw that it hurts. I don't care if it's romantic or not, it gave me so many feels I almost cried too. Poor Tifa.

(it's a huge image, I can't get over the tears trailing Tifa's face)

Spoiler: SOME SHITPOSTING FOR FLAVOR

The first time I saw this gif I haven't seen the whole scene, and given Cloud's expression I believed Tifa's grip had left Cloud breathless from pain -that or she was squeezing his nipples hard.

Edit: WHY do I notice typos only when people quote my posts?! WHY

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Spoiler: gratuitous and disrespectful comment

It was his first erection.

 

[Odysseus]

Cloud you sly dog.....

View attachment 5858

I think those of us who are pro Tifa and Cloud can say that this is her best character model ever.

Okay I don't know why but "Yellow flower lost" always cracks me up for some reason.