GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
Zack and Aerith better have a glorious reunion in Part 3. Feel bad for both of them.
SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
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AncientGrimoire
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Something that I believe explains Aerith’s different characterisation from how she was in Remake to how she now is in Rebirth
It was strongly implied in Remake’s Chapter 17, Deliverance from Chaos, that each time the Whispers made contact with Aerith she lost more and more of her foresight, or ability to be able to either see or perceive the future. By Remake’s end this is pretty much confirmed by “The Unknown Journey…” title drop at the end. I now believe it isn’t an unknown journey per se to us as the audience, but now it is an unknown journey for Aerith, who up until this point in Remake’s story, gave hints as to her knowing her fate but also outcomes of other scenarios from the future (such as the Sector 7 plate collapse).
Very early on in Rebirth, Aerith confirms to Tifa that she no longer can see the future, or has any of the foreknowledge about how their journey will play out nor events that happened in the past (Tifa asks Aerith about Cloud’s whereabouts in the five years following Nibelheim, thinking Aerith might know, given she’d established foresight to Tifa at least twice during the events of Remake).
In Red XIII’s Gold Saucer date, he too confirms that he and Aerith lost their foreknowledge.
So given all that, it greatly informs how Aerith acts in Remake, as she has knowledge of both past and future events, and this is seen in her interactions with Cloud and Tifa, and others too, but I believe most strongly with them two. Red XIII and Marlene obviously as well.
But without that knowledge, and with everything now unknown and confusing to her, Aerith in Rebirth is very much the Aerith we know from the OG. She isn’t Remake Aerith who had knowledge of how the OG’s events play out. She’s now almost been reverted back to the original Aerith.
The Aerith who was “interested in the love triangle between herself, Cloud, and Tifa”. She’s seen as much more forward, and takes more initiative, in her attempts and desires to be able to determine the nature of her feelings, Cloud’s feelings, and that of their relationship.
Aerith having no knowledge of other events also informs her attitude regarding Zack. If she was Remake Aerith, she would 100% know Zack’s fate, and survival in the other world. She doesn’t seem to her, which is why her Gold Saucer date with Cloud is almost exactly the same verbatim to her original date from 1997. It’s notably different to her resolution scene from Remake in my opinion.
Of course towards the end of Rebirth, Aerith becomes more aware of her fate, or Destiny, or however it would be more appropriate to frame it as. She knows she is going to die. The circumstances and context for this are still a bit vague to me, but essentially even with this knowledge, this isn’t her becoming omnipotent again like she was in Remake. Because her dream date in Sector 5 with Cloud is very much in line with Rebirth Aerith wanting to get closure and understanding of the nature of hers and Cloud’s relationship, especially given she knows now how little time they have left together.
To sum up as this is getting essay length (my apologies) this serves to make Aerith more of the flawed, but lovable and relatable and more dynamic character she was in the original. Not to say she wasn’t all that in Remake, but her being all knowing could only be taken so far in the wider narrative, and things are convoluted enough.
By her having this unknown journey, and arc of wanting to figure things out for herself (as it was in the original) makes for a more compelling story personally.
Last thing, I find it notable, that Aerith has her Gold Saucer date more closely match the original than anybody else’s, whereas the others are more further along development wise in the personal arcs of their characters (Tifa’s especially).
I believe Aerith’s Gold Saucer date acts as the strong foreshadowing it was in the original. There’s only so much time, and development left for this character. Her story is nearly coming to an end. Whereas for the others, there’s still a lot more left to go with them and their personal arcs, so their Gold Saucer dates are planting those narrative seeds that I believe will pay off in Part 3.
Very early on in Rebirth, Aerith confirms to Tifa that she no longer can see the future, or has any of the foreknowledge about how their journey will play out nor events that happened in the past (Tifa asks Aerith about Cloud’s whereabouts in the five years following Nibelheim, thinking Aerith might know, given she’d established foresight to Tifa at least twice during the events of Remake).
In Red XIII’s Gold Saucer date, he too confirms that he and Aerith lost their foreknowledge.
So given all that, it greatly informs how Aerith acts in Remake, as she has knowledge of both past and future events, and this is seen in her interactions with Cloud and Tifa, and others too, but I believe most strongly with them two. Red XIII and Marlene obviously as well.
But without that knowledge, and with everything now unknown and confusing to her, Aerith in Rebirth is very much the Aerith we know from the OG. She isn’t Remake Aerith who had knowledge of how the OG’s events play out. She’s now almost been reverted back to the original Aerith.
The Aerith who was “interested in the love triangle between herself, Cloud, and Tifa”. She’s seen as much more forward, and takes more initiative, in her attempts and desires to be able to determine the nature of her feelings, Cloud’s feelings, and that of their relationship.
Aerith having no knowledge of other events also informs her attitude regarding Zack. If she was Remake Aerith, she would 100% know Zack’s fate, and survival in the other world. She doesn’t seem to her, which is why her Gold Saucer date with Cloud is almost exactly the same verbatim to her original date from 1997. It’s notably different to her resolution scene from Remake in my opinion.
Of course towards the end of Rebirth, Aerith becomes more aware of her fate, or Destiny, or however it would be more appropriate to frame it as. She knows she is going to die. The circumstances and context for this are still a bit vague to me, but essentially even with this knowledge, this isn’t her becoming omnipotent again like she was in Remake. Because her dream date in Sector 5 with Cloud is very much in line with Rebirth Aerith wanting to get closure and understanding of the nature of hers and Cloud’s relationship, especially given she knows now how little time they have left together.
To sum up as this is getting essay length (my apologies) this serves to make Aerith more of the flawed, but lovable and relatable and more dynamic character she was in the original. Not to say she wasn’t all that in Remake, but her being all knowing could only be taken so far in the wider narrative, and things are convoluted enough.
By her having this unknown journey, and arc of wanting to figure things out for herself (as it was in the original) makes for a more compelling story personally.
Last thing, I find it notable, that Aerith has her Gold Saucer date more closely match the original than anybody else’s, whereas the others are more further along development wise in the personal arcs of their characters (Tifa’s especially).
I believe Aerith’s Gold Saucer date acts as the strong foreshadowing it was in the original. There’s only so much time, and development left for this character. Her story is nearly coming to an end. Whereas for the others, there’s still a lot more left to go with them and their personal arcs, so their Gold Saucer dates are planting those narrative seeds that I believe will pay off in Part 3.
Yumelinh
Pro Adventurer
Come to think of it, this dream sequence is much more LTD-killing than the CT date kiss. We never had a similar scene in the OG, so when Aerith died, we didn't know where her feelings stood or how Cloud felt about her before the Lifestream scene happened. It was left for interpretation, which resulted in all sorts of conclusions and theories. This time around, we got this sequence that serves as much as a farewell and a conclusive answer to the question OG left for interpretation, and it all happens before she dies this time.
That said, I don't believe the LTD is dead per se, and we still have Part 3, so a lot can change, but it's definitely much more clear in terms of direction and intentions.
That said, I don't believe the LTD is dead per se, and we still have Part 3, so a lot can change, but it's definitely much more clear in terms of direction and intentions.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
The LTD will never die. This does not apply to all but plenty of shippers, both Clerith and Cloti, will always interpret dialogue from that lens. But the opposite is also true in that they will disregard information that conflicts with their reading.
Zack and Aerith/Cloud and Tifa could have children and it still wouldn’t matter. Because Clerith shippers in droves will say it only happened because Aerith died and Tifa won by default.
Likewise, plenty of Cloti shippers will deny that Cloud ever had romantic feelings for Aerith, which is just not true.
Hix
Pro Adventurer
Mate, I am so with you on this. Nobody deserves a happy reunion and ending more than these two, honestly, given how selfless they have been throughout the compilation. Yes, I know Aerith comes across a bit selfish in Rebirth but she still makes the ultimate sacrifice in the end. And Zack does the same. They both clearly haven't moved on from each other, it's just waiting for the devs to connect the dots they've made.
I have faith they'll not let us down in part 3.
Fantastic post and insight, thank you.
AncientGrimoire
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A lot of the responses to
The Sector 5 dream date, and church resolution
It’s being read/misread (YMMV) as romantic by a lot of people. That it confirms the nature of Cloud and Aerith’s relationship and story as “star-crossed lovers”.
Some are saying Aerith is trying to confess her love for Cloud, and that Cloud will realise he missed his chance, and that when they reunite in Part 3 because No Promises to Keep says they will, Cloud will confess his love for Aerith. I mean, it’s a beautiful story, but that isn’t the story that is being told here. Not at all.
Personally? To me it couldn’t have been beating me over the head more how much the intent was to convey the incompatibility of Cloud and Aerith as a romantic couple. I’m not even going to try and theorise in depth as to how much this sequence supposedly reveals just how much Aerith is or isn’t over Zack, it pretty firmly establishes to me that while there is a deep, heartfelt connection between Cloud and Aerith, as a “couple of lovebirds?”. Not so much.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
This is what I meant. Shippers (not all) tend to interpret scenes like these with a sort of “affirmation bias” in that they see it as promoting the ship when that may not be the actual intention.
Frankly, like others have said, recreating her date with Zack shows that she is not over Zack. Because… why not just recreate their little rest in the park during Remake or picking flowers in Elmyra’s garden. Or running around Wall Market taking part in shenanigans. Or their clock tower date. Or hell, just coming up with something entirely new.
It was a deliberate choice that she decided to recreate a date she had with Zack. Subconsciously on her part but very deliberate by the devs.
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I agree with you that both sides tend to disregard information that conflicts with their reading. I like to think that I try to see the romantic narrative in FF7 without any bias but I’m definitely prone to my own faults too haha
I do believe, however that with Rebirth, the goalposts for the LTD have shifted. I can’t find the original comment in this thread but someone else made a great comment that the central LTD question people argue over has shifted from:
”Does Cloud love Tifa?” OR “Does Cloud love Aerith?”
to:
”Does Cloud romantically love only Tifa?” OR “Does Cloud romantically love Tifa and Aerith?”
Theres just no getting around the fact that
Cloud only kissed Tifa
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
To be clear, Cloud and Tifa’s kiss might be optional but we can’t forget that this the first time any sort of explicit kiss has been shown between Cloud and any of the love interests. And it only happened with one of them. That’s a pretty big deal no matter how optional it is.
Plus, you get completion points for seeing all the dates, so clearly the developers expect you to go back and try to get ALL the dates after you finish your first play through. Which means they assume you’ll eventually see all of them.
Plus, you get completion points for seeing all the dates, so clearly the developers expect you to go back and try to get ALL the dates after you finish your first play through. Which means they assume you’ll eventually see all of them.
AncientGrimoire
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I mean I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with having one’s own interpretations and readings of any given story like this. If it brings people comfort to have those beliefs in the story, then that’s fine. It would actually be nice to think it would allow there to be more healthier and respectful debates around the love triangle, because there is genuinely so much to discuss and theorise about all the various Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith interactions in Rebirth.
It’s actually really lovely that for the most part from what I’ve read on these here forums, this is a really healthy, respectful and safe place to have those discussions.
But I’m saying this as someone who loves all three, and reads the story as someone who both believes that ultimately the story will end as it did in the original with Cloud and Tifa together, and Aerith and Zack together in the Lifestream. But I also respect that there was something deep and profound and meaningful in the relations Cloud had with Aerith. Much in the same way there is between the two women themselves.
The problem I think when these conversations play out across other areas of the internet is so often they run afoul of interpretations that are rooted in the incorrect reading that Cloud’s deep emotional feelings regarding Tifa and Aerith must be exclusive to only one of the women. That he feels this way about one at the expense of the other.
I mean yes I believe he does love one, and arguably loves the other too, but not in the same sense.
As Aerith herself puts it, “There is liking, and there is liking”
So many people have to mentally jump through a lot of hoops, and cherry pick scenes and information to try and convince themselves and others that Cloud feels absolutely nothing for Aerith, if he feels this way about Tifa, and vice versa, when that is blatantly not true in the text itself.
TL;DR I think it’s great we’re able to have nuanced and respectful conversations around this debate here, I just wished that could be more widespread among the community.
Speaking of liking and “liking”, has anyone brought up that Aerith’s line to Cloud in the church scene contrasts this excerpt from Trace of Two Pasts?
Tifa and Aerith really are two opposite sides of the same coin huh?
She'd discovered that Cloud-the quiet neighbor who had always seemed as unreachable as the stars--was just a normal boy like any other. She'd come to understand that she did like him. And it was that special kind of "like" the one that ties up your heart, making you yearn to be with that person for the rest of your days.
Yumelinh
Pro Adventurer
I do agree it will never truly die for the shippers, both sides included. However, I'm speaking more about making things clearer for the wider audience that still sees FFVII romance as open to interpretation since they aren't aware of even half of the information we got with the compilation.
Feel free to read this as me interpreting information that conflicts with my preferred intention (since it's very clear that I do have a favorite horse in this race
). If I consider Remake and Rebirth alone, there's nothing that convinces me for sure that Cloud loves Aerith romantically. But to discuss that, we would probably need to discuss how we define what we consider as love/romantic per se, and I'd rather not (we did that in this very thread in the past, and it's a very tiresome subject, lol). But we still have Part 3 to go, so my perception of it can change.
AncientGrimoire
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It’s why that while there is a certain element of romantic rivalry between Tifa and Aerith, they aren’t “rivals” per se, and aren’t presented as being in competition with each other over Cloud’s affections.
If Tifa is your date during the first visit to the Gold Saucer, Aerith even openly admits in front of Cloud and Tifa that she is “a teensy bit jealous”. Not of Cloud and Tifa necessarily, the way she says it makes me think she’s more jealous of the fact she doesn’t have a date to go around the Gold Saucer in this scenario where Cloud is with Tifa.
Both Tifa and Aerith are emotionally rich, but also young and navigating a lot of personal and emotional turmoil that tie to their pasts and the journey they are on, and both display a remarkable level of emotional maturity regarding each other that they don’t once really ever fall victim to the Betty and Veronica trope as friends.
Tifa and Aerith’s interactions are actually the ones I look forward to the most
GamerSkull
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I agree basically with all of that. I just think the LTD is not something that will ever stop being argued over.
And yeah, it’s because shippers will pick apart every line. They’ll see the
“I thought I would be happy to see you again, but maybe I was wrong” at Kalm
S5 date
AncientGrimoire
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Whenever one single line is taken to be used as evidence that someone is toxic, that’s when I know whatever argument they have is not worth listening to.
Not even to mention one must clearly not have an understanding of people and relationships if they are to take lines like those and use them to make out that it’s toxic.
Also if toxic is a chosen description that’s very quickly used in such arguments, especially when there is no actual basis for it being the case, it makes me wonder why it’s so often thrown around so carelessly. To me it minimises examples in real life and real relationships where there is actual demonstrable emotional toxicity.
Sadly though, based purely on arguments you see play out across on Twitter by the hour, to an extent shipping and toxicity do go hand in hand.
GamerSkull
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Agreed, it also assumes relationships are always sunshine and rainbows.
Sometimes relationships go through rough patches.
AncientGrimoire
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I was reading an excellent breakdown of the ending shenanigans over in the Main Rebirth spoiler thread, that reaffirms by own reading that Aerith’s slight difference in behaviour is due to her past and future memories being taken away by the Whispers. This is also depicted in her White Materia being empty, as the memories were what gave the Materia its “substance”. This also neatly ties into why Aerith took herself and Cloud to the other world (Sector 5) it was all about getting the unaffected White Materia from this world.
I like the fact that there was a strongly important reason for Aerith coming here, and with Cloud too, beyond just wanting to reenact a date from
her past with Cloud.
I knew there had to be added context for the whole Sector 5 date, because taken out of context, it was initially very odd hearing and then seeing Aerith act in this way, but now I know the Sector 5 date is probably one of the most important sequences in Rebirth for Aerith’s character and the plot. And I no longer see it as a disservice to Aerith’s character as I initially did. The needing the complete White Materia, and the knowing Aerith lost all her previous memories of the past and future from Remake.
If anything this added context makes Aerith’s death more emotional to me.
I like the fact that there was a strongly important reason for Aerith coming here, and with Cloud too, beyond just wanting to reenact a date from
her past with Cloud.
I knew there had to be added context for the whole Sector 5 date, because taken out of context, it was initially very odd hearing and then seeing Aerith act in this way, but now I know the Sector 5 date is probably one of the most important sequences in Rebirth for Aerith’s character and the plot. And I no longer see it as a disservice to Aerith’s character as I initially did. The needing the complete White Materia, and the knowing Aerith lost all her previous memories of the past and future from Remake.
If anything this added context makes Aerith’s death more emotional to me.
Yumelinh
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Amazing post @AncientGrimoire! Couldn't agree more!
This reminded me of an answer Cloud's VA gave about this very same topic due to shipwars in his post lol
GamerSkull
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Yeah, he seemed to be pretty aware just how reactions would go when the game would release.
AncientGrimoire
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His tweet makes SO much more sense now with what happens in Rebirth.
AncientGrimoire
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In fact the more I really think about it, he’s absolutely on the money here with that last line.
I believe he’s referring to Cloud and Aerith in that last line, because there is a fundamental difference in the relationships Cloud has with Tifa and with Aerith, both of which are incredibly important for the story development.
Initially I think a lot of us all thought that given which portions of the story Rebirth covers from the original, a lot of the focus would be on Cloud and Aerith’s relationship, as at this point in the story their’s is very important. So to see Tifa also get greatly expanded screen time and both story and character development, including with her relationship with Cloud was honestly surprising, given all we know is yet to happen in Part 3 and the importance Cloud and Tifa’s past and relationship plays there.
For the importance of Rebirth’s story development, especially in the third act, naturally Cloud and Aerith’s relationship takes centre stage. This is why I think that Aerith always sings in the Loveless play. It’s to firmly establish the emotional beats of her connections to two characters (my interpretation is NPTK does in part also speak to her feelings for Zack) and where her story ends up.
If they were to, using Cody’s words here, sexualise Cloud and Aerith’s relationship, it would for sure ruin the story development. It wouldn’t make sense narratively or be in keeping with the characterisations of all involved, both from the original and in the Remake trilogy.
This all isn’t to say that Cloud and Tifa’s relationship is just sexualised and there’s nothing more going on emotionally, but you can’t deny there is SO much physical chemistry and intimacy on display between Cloud and Tifa that started in Remake and has carried through to Rebirth.
It would be very surprising if all of what they’ve done in regards to developing Cloud and Tifa’s story doesn’t pay off emotionally (the Lifestream sequence) and physically (Under the Highwind). They’ve been foreshadowing very strongly in this respect.
Initially I think a lot of us all thought that given which portions of the story Rebirth covers from the original, a lot of the focus would be on Cloud and Aerith’s relationship, as at this point in the story their’s is very important. So to see Tifa also get greatly expanded screen time and both story and character development, including with her relationship with Cloud was honestly surprising, given all we know is yet to happen in Part 3 and the importance Cloud and Tifa’s past and relationship plays there.
For the importance of Rebirth’s story development, especially in the third act, naturally Cloud and Aerith’s relationship takes centre stage. This is why I think that Aerith always sings in the Loveless play. It’s to firmly establish the emotional beats of her connections to two characters (my interpretation is NPTK does in part also speak to her feelings for Zack) and where her story ends up.
If they were to, using Cody’s words here, sexualise Cloud and Aerith’s relationship, it would for sure ruin the story development. It wouldn’t make sense narratively or be in keeping with the characterisations of all involved, both from the original and in the Remake trilogy.
This all isn’t to say that Cloud and Tifa’s relationship is just sexualised and there’s nothing more going on emotionally, but you can’t deny there is SO much physical chemistry and intimacy on display between Cloud and Tifa that started in Remake and has carried through to Rebirth.
It would be very surprising if all of what they’ve done in regards to developing Cloud and Tifa’s story doesn’t pay off emotionally (the Lifestream sequence) and physically (Under the Highwind). They’ve been foreshadowing very strongly in this respect.
Yumelinh
Pro Adventurer
I read on twitter/X that if this happens you get CloudxCid/Cait/Vincent dateI don’t mean to ask this, but say two characters have equal bonding levels which one takes priority on a date? bc my Red XIII and Barret are equalor is it random?
Not sure if it's true, but if it is you in for a ride because their date is hilariusRegarding Aerith's final date
Cloud says that next time Aerith should pick a harder puzzle. Aerith thinks Cloud means Cloud wants to go on more dates. Cloud says "because we're friends". Aerith is a bit dissappointed, because she was expecting something more....well, romantic. She says "Now I know where we stand", and goes on to talk about the difference between liking someone and really liking somone...Which Cloud doesnt even try process. This isnt a rejection per se, but it shows us how Cloud views their entire date as something friends would do.
In a way, this also reflects Cloud's attttude during the Gold Saucer date where he says "But I didnt do anything" when Aerith thanks him.
In a way, this also reflects Cloud's attttude during the Gold Saucer date where he says "But I didnt do anything" when Aerith thanks him.
My guess is they’re probably trolling, but you never knowI read on twitter/X that if this happens you get CloudxCid/Cait/Vincent date
