SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[faefolk]

This is an interesting argument few have the cojones to address, mostly because Tifa turns them on (or they self-insert as Tifa) which means she's a flawless princess that can do no wrong, all character flaws are something else's fault.
And I quote, from some external video:

The biggest plot twist of the game is that Tifa did not accept Cloud at his worst, more like she didn't care.
If Tifa did accept Cloud at his worst (Nibelheim) none of this would've happened.
Tifa both accidentally helped saving the world (Cloud's thirst is what stops Sephiroth) and caused most of Cloud's problems (he would have never been injured and tortured if she gave him a little bit of attention).

Tifa in the lifestream is a textbook example of "You break it, you buy it".

Lmao are you serious? Literally what makes the story so good is that all of the characters are deeply flawed and human. Do minimise Tifa into a pair of tits who turns people on so much they can't use their brains is just stupid.

You've just made some hectic claims about her not caring about Cloud and causing most of his problems without a shred of evidence to back it up. Please do explain how she didn't care about him and caused his problems? Because I honestly have no idea what you're talking about

 

[Someonesbunny]

This is an interesting argument few have the cojones to address, mostly because Tifa turns them on (or they self-insert as Tifa) which means she's a flawless princess that can do no wrong, all character flaws are something else's fault.
And I quote, from some external video:

The biggest plot twist of the game is that Tifa did not accept Cloud at his worst, more like she didn't care.
If Tifa did accept Cloud at his worst (Nibelheim) none of this would've happened.
Tifa both accidentally helped saving the world (Cloud's thirst is what stops Sephiroth) and caused most of Cloud's problems (he would have never been injured and tortured if she gave him a little bit of attention).

Tifa in the lifestream is a textbook example of "You break it, you buy it".

I'm pretty sure there was a book that came out recently that addressed parts of this...

Additionally, I suppose it's probably best to ask if people with this view if they see Cloud as a character with any agency at all. It's almost as if it's being suggested that only Tifa could make the choice of whether or not he would leave (and start this whole debacle). His feelings are a catalyst, his belief in his own inadequacies, etc. That she is at the center of it isn't really her choice either.

But she certainly makes a choice at Mideel. And that's not a light one to make either.

 

[faefolk]

Hmm… not sure I agree there.

Let’s not forget the reason Cloud was outcast… was not because of Tifa.

Also, Tifa did accept him at worst though. She has a brief moment of doubting him at the Northern Cave, mostly due to Sephiroth’s gaslighting but it was only for a moment.

Are you forgetting the part where he becomes a drooling vegetable and Tifa decides to abandon the party to take care of him, stating that he was all she cares about?

Or finding him in Midgar with mako poisoning and nursing him back to health after not seeing him for years lol.

Tifa was literally a kid who lost her Mum and then fell off a cliff and had memory issues afterwards lmao. It's wild to me how many people expect a literal traumatised child to be responsible for some other kids self imposed isolation.

 

[Empyrea]

That on top of Tifa's dad telling Cloud to stay away from her because he thought her falling off the bridge was his fault.

 

[Empyrea]

Tifa is actually my favorite character in all of FF7. And it’s not cuz she’s hot (although that’s a plus) but her entire character arc resonated with me the most.

Yeah she is my favourite too. She's so resilient and caring. Very selfless. It was something I admired so much as a kid and admire even more as an adult. She's a really great character!

Joining you guys in that club! Tifa and Zack are my faves in FF7!

In Tifa's case, I saw her arc at a point in my life where being a love interest usually comes with being a rather flat character and irrelevant to the plot.

Tifa subverts that by being a love interest and being indispensable. She also has a personality that's not only great, but also isn't on the extreme of too kind to the point of being a living doormat while still being flawed without being mean and catty.

Plus she kicks and punches with style while still being really feminine. Most characters like that are designated as tomboys.

 

[Hix]

Lmao are you serious? Literally what makes the story so good is that all of the characters are deeply flawed and human. Do minimise Tifa into a pair of tits who turns people on so much they can't use their brains is just stupid.

You've just made some hectic claims about her not caring about Cloud and causing most of his problems without a shred of evidence to back it up. Please do explain how she didn't care about him and caused his problems? Because I honestly have no idea what you're talking about

Wondering if @Kigan is referring to the scene (in OG) where Sephiroth calls Cloud "nothing but a clone"

Cloud hearing this, turns to Tifa and says;

“I am the one you grew up with. I’m Cloud of Nibelheim. No matter how much I lose faith in myself, that is the truth. That’s why you shouldn’t be so scared. No matter what anyone else says to me, it’s your attitude that counts…”

Tifa however cannot corroborate the story, whether that's because she's so unsure, or Sephiroth is manipulating her, or she's confused and in grief over Aerith's death, or most likely all those things.

But by Tifa not being able to back him up, that's what breaks Cloud. Not anything else - and he says so himself - all that matters and mattered was Tifa's opinion.

Nevertheless, as bad as this moment was (Cloud snaps, becomes Sephiroth's tool, eventually falls into the Lifestream) it's the precursor to Cloud's lowest moment, not the lowest moment itself.

Mideel is Cloud at his most vulnerable, confused, lost and broken. But there, Tifa not only accepts and loves him, but risks her own self by diving into his subconscious and mending his broken mind piece by piece. The beauty of this scene, for me, is the role reversal. Tifa's dream as a kid was a hero to come rescue her, but instead she ends up rescuing the hero - and only she can do it.

So yeah, she's not perfect, but she's perfect for Cloud. And her momentary confusion over his identity did not change her dedication to him. Tifa's, subtly, one of the best written characters in the franchise and her romance with Cloud is up there for me.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

Yeah the creators were clearly flirting with the idea of Clerith but leaving it ambiguous enough that it's nothing set in stone.

- I argue one CA once on this line! I super agree CA is being ambiguous enough because some people believe it. But since its not canon and just part of the story it doesnt have enough background / backbone to support.

CA said - so why do you think they made it to waste money?? Are you kidding me
ME: because there are delusionals like you who believe it~ since you're believing it they're making it for you (they're buying the game anyway)

but again no substance ( its ambiguous NO HISTORY NO BACKSTORY they just met! the girl fell in love and the guy has someone in his heart already but mentally challenge - copying or mimicking the girls ex boyfriend ) There are people who still believing it soo they making it anywayz ( sucks ) but hence IT DOESNT MAKE ANY SENSE --> purposely made ambiguous so it wont disturb the story.

hence I think it soley because of that SENA is made that way..

==================================

its different with Zerith though they have a backstory and how they met ( Crisis Core) and spend time together to fell in love - not to mention with future FF7

with CA even in OG 'certain conversation or actions doesnt make any sense for me~"

 

[sunshine1991]

This is an interesting argument few have the cojones to address, mostly because Tifa turns them on (or they self-insert as Tifa) which means she's a flawless princess that can do no wrong, all character flaws are something else's fault.
And I quote, from some external video:

The biggest plot twist of the game is that Tifa did not accept Cloud at his worst, more like she didn't care.
If Tifa did accept Cloud at his worst (Nibelheim) none of this would've happened.
Tifa both accidentally helped saving the world (Cloud's thirst is what stops Sephiroth) and caused most of Cloud's problems (he would have never been injured and tortured if she gave him a little bit of attention).

Tifa in the lifestream is a textbook example of "You break it, you buy it".

Wow can’t believe there’s people that think like this about Tifa. I’m women and Tifa is my favourite FFVII character since I was a kid. As a women I like her so much. Yes, she is pretty and hot but she is more than that. She is bad ass but still feminine which I like a lot. Most of FF heroines usually princess type and white mage but Tifa is special for me since she is super strong and a martial artist.

Tifa accept Cloud in any condition. She likes Cloud even if he wasn’t a soldiers, she nursed Cloud in the beginning of the game, she also fixed cloud in the end, in AC she also so patient with Cloud depression. She loves him unconditionally. Too said that she only loves Cloud at his best is a reach

 

[AncientGrimoire]

Can’t wait for the Ultimania’s to come out and inevitably clarify and define a lot of the context and intent of certain scenes. This is one of the few franchises or series where you need a book to come out explaining the developers meaning behind things to dispel all the bad faith readings and wilful misinterpretations.

Also anticipating them saying all the Gold Saucer dates canonically happened, much the same way all of Remake’s resolution scenes happened.

If Cloud was made to be woken up three times in one night, they’ll for sure be fine making the poor lad go on six Skywheel rides in one night.

 

[Aurenare]

she didn't care.
If Tifa did accept Cloud at his worst

(he would have never been injured and tortured if she gave him a little bit of attention

"If the girls at my high school had given me any attention, I wouldn't have had to get an automatic rifle and mass shot them".

Some incel vibes are we having around here.

Nobody, NOBODY is entitled to another person's attention. Nor care.

And what makes these statements more egregious is that you are blaming and burdening a literal CHILD. Get a grip, people.

Signed: a pissed off lurker and mother.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Relevant-

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1764167321147609358

I feel like it might have went and had some of the opposite effect though and Aerith is less loved after Rebirth and feels overshadowed for a lot of the game, with many wondering why her character wasn't improved and why scenes from OG were missing, and I'm not sure that was the intention. That it was said they would have equal time before it came out but once players played they didn't really think that and praised Tifa a lot and didn't care that Aerith

Spoiler

died or not

, it feels like a lot of the same sadness is gone this time.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

I feel like it might have went and had some of the opposite effect though and Aerith is less loved after Rebirth and feels overshadowed for a lot of the game, with many wondering why her character wasn't improved and why scenes from OG were missing, and I'm not sure that was the intention. That it was said they would have equal time but once players played they didn't really think that and praised Tifa a lot and didn't care that Aerith

Spoiler

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They're focusing on romantic scenes with Cloud. They actually expanded her connections with the rest of the team. How she understand everybody's pain. Cloud's the only thing she have puzzle connecting because he's being a pain but eitherway he accompanied her.

They actually put them on mini dates going and stuff. They put an emphasis on important scenes with her. Unlike with OG this is highlighted scenes with her because they're emphasis is to make player love them so her death will definitely hurt.

Of course in Rebirth they didn't need to do all that people are expecting her death already. Just how to execute it~

They expanded on last date' as last goodbye and do the deed on Forgotten City. ( buut to be honest ~ even as a cloti I might have preferred the OG death though dont know why they changed it ( but i'm parking this for now ) maybe this is a plan for part 3.

Eitherway its expected.

What people didnt expect is Tifa's story and to show more of her struggles and pains and of course THE GS KISS.

 

[Empyrea]

Personally, Aerith's death never impacted me. Not because of the character herself, but the fact that I played FF7 late. Even though I wasn't spoiled of that bit, I had already played plenty of games where a character dies.

What didn't help, I feel, was that this time around, they put so much spotlight on the fact that she dies.

Personally, I would've preferred if they focused more on Aerith's Cetra heritage and the lead up to her praying for holy. Her unique appeal to me was that she had a plot all to herself that meshes with the others but can stand equally on its own. That's something not a lot of female characters can brag about.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

Personally, Aerith's death never impacted me. Not because of the character herself, but the fact that I played FF7 late. Even though I wasn't spoiled of that bit, I had already played plenty of games where a character dies.

- OH saame! Even in OG sorry i dont know back then why this is soo much issue. Well I have issues with OG Aerith since i never understand her back then.

- Back in Remake i actually thought maybe her death make me cry this time same on how I cried sooo much for Zack in CC. But honestly the entire scene is too weird for me ~ when the deed happened I just want it to be over.

 

[slimo6464]

but once players played they didn't really think that and praised Tifa a lot and didn't care that Aerith

Spoiler

died or not

, it feels like a lot of the same sadness is gone this time.

Spoiler

That's because her death scene was awful this time. It happened almost entirely offscreen and then her ghost/hallucination/alternate timeline version/whatever shows up and its like she never even left. Of course people didn't care. Aerith's death was effective because when she was gone, she was gone. Also it helps to actually see her die. The devs used her death to create a dumb mystery box to fuel speculation for the next four years and let aerith fans delude themselves into thinking she'll come back so they'll buy part 3.

 

[faefolk]

Relevant-

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1764167321147609358

I feel like it might have went and had some of the opposite effect though and Aerith is less loved after Rebirth and feels overshadowed for a lot of the game, with many wondering why her character wasn't improved and why scenes from OG were missing, and I'm not sure that was the intention. That it was said they would have equal time before it came out but once players played they didn't really think that and praised Tifa a lot and didn't care that Aerith

Spoiler

died or not

, it feels like a lot of the same sadness is gone this time.

I don't think the plan was to take away from Aerith. I think it's more that in the OG all the focus is on Aerith but the final part has Tifa kind of coming out of left field as a leading heroine and this time they're trying to empathize her equal importance to the narrative. I also honestly think they wanted the build up of Cloud and Tifas relationship to feel much more natural this time too. Because they've shifted the narrative towards Aerith having more internal conflict about Zack, actually added Zack in to remind us he exists constantly and that he loves Aerith - and they've given us a really clear cut narrative build up to both why Tifas faith in Cloud matters so much for him (for the final part when he totally shatters) and how they end up so connected in the LS sequence and under the high wind.
They said prior to the release of the game that they wanted to make things more clearcut this time and I definitely think it includes the LTD and specifically Tifas depiction in general. So much emphasis is put on Aeriths heroine status because of her status as an Ancient - but Tifa is equally important to the narrative, especially in the final act

 

[faefolk]

Spoiler

That's because her death scene was awful this time. It happened almost entirely offscreen and then her ghost/hallucination/alternate timeline version/whatever shows up and its like she never even left. Of course people didn't care. Aerith's death was effective because when she was gone, she was gone. Also it helps to actually see her die. The devs used her death to create a dumb mystery box to fuel speculation for the next four years and let aerith fans delude themselves into thinking she'll come back so they'll buy part 3.

I feel like I'm one of the only people who didn't hate the end. I also didn't read it as

Spoiler

Aerith surviving at all

but rather the focus being on the deterioration of

Spoiler

Clouds mental state - which seemed to be in more focus than the original. Personally I'm happy with that change as Clouds struggle with his identity was the most compelling part of the OG for me.

Aerith is definitely dead. I assume the ultimania will confirm this. I didn't even think for a second we were meant to think she's alive - because this game has gone heavy on Clouds descent into madness. And Barret and Tifa very clearly have a silent communication in the final scene that says he's off his rocker.

Idk I'm happy with the end and I trust the creators to do the job right in the final game. Remember this is a complete story and we're only 2/3 through. It's normal to not know everything just not. When you read a book you're trusting the authors with the characters and the story. It's the same thing here.

 

[r_monk]

This is an interesting argument few have the cojones to address, mostly because Tifa turns them on (or they self-insert as Tifa) which means she's a flawless princess that can do no wrong, all character flaws are something else's fault.
And I quote, from some external video:

The biggest plot twist of the game is that Tifa did not accept Cloud at his worst, more like she didn't care.
If Tifa did accept Cloud at his worst (Nibelheim) none of this would've happened.
Tifa both accidentally helped saving the world (Cloud's thirst is what stops Sephiroth) and caused most of Cloud's problems (he would have never been injured and tortured if she gave him a little bit of attention).

Tifa in the lifestream is a textbook example of "You break it, you buy it".

This is an interesting argument few have the cojones to address, mostly because Tifa turns them on (or they self-insert as Tifa) which means she's a flawless princess that can do no wrong, all character flaws are something else's fault.
And I quote, from some external video:

The biggest plot twist of the game is that Tifa did not accept Cloud at his worst, more like she didn't care.
If Tifa did accept Cloud at his worst (Nibelheim) none of this would've happened.
Tifa both accidentally helped saving the world (Cloud's thirst is what stops Sephiroth) and caused most of Cloud's problems (he would have never been injured and tortured if she gave him a little bit of attention).

Tifa in the lifestream is a textbook example of "You break it, you buy it".

This shit again. The whole irony behind the Cloud and Tifa trope of "weird loner tried hard to win the approval of popular girl who won't give him the time of day" is that she literally liked him as a normal boy and, as an astoundingly consistent and down-to-earth character, accepted and loved him as he was, regardless of whether or not he considered himself a "failure." To her, he never was.

And the updates in Remake and Rebirth go even further with that—even at a young age, Tifa never needed Cloud to prove himself to her; that was all him. That's their whole effing arc!!!! That he can be himself with her, not some idealized version. I don't know what or why you're projecting onto Tifa, but this is getting ridiculous.

 

[billy22]

I feel like it might have went and had some of the opposite effect though and Aerith is less loved after Rebirth and feels overshadowed for a lot of the game, with many wondering why her character wasn't improved and why scenes from OG were missing,

What Aerith scenes are missing from the OG?

and I'm not sure that was the intention. That it was said they would have equal time before it came out but once players played they didn't really think that and praised Tifa a lot and didn't care that Aerith

Spoiler

died or not

, it feels like a lot of the same sadness is gone this time.

Tbf, they said they would have equal screentime, not equal romance. People just kind of filled in that blank themselves (And they do have equal screentime). I don't know what makes you say players "didn't care if Aerith died or not," when many of the people talking about Rebirth are not only older but have already played the OG and are not surprised by it. Harder to be affected by something the same way you were over 20 years ago.

As for Tifa overshadowing her, Tifa is just really popular, and being alive helps with that. But we should wait until part 3, because Aerith is definitely going to get a lot more to do than she did in OG past disc 1.

 

[eleamaya]

Btw, I'm just reminded of something in FFXIII since the devs are same people (except Nojima, I guess?), Not many people love Snow so I get why they ship Serah with Noel instead in the sequel since the two is lead male and lead female here. But this is just a matter of preference, I could accept not all people love Zack as Aerith's pair just like people dont like Snow with Serah if Clerith shippers didn't try to twist anything. I never see people debate over which one Serah and Noel love romantically in canon. But this ending moment still heartbreaking to some.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

Aerith's death was effective because when she was gone, she was gone. Also it helps to actually see her die. The devs used her death to create a dumb mystery box to fuel speculation for the next four years and let aerith fans delude themselves into thinking she'll come back so they'll buy part 3.

- I KNOW!!! Her death is effective because there's noo way to return her back in OG~ ( I personally think the impaling scene is not shown before if rating purposes we're 4K guys.. I never expected it honestly). I think a lot of people debated it a whole lot before and I was surprise Nomura agreed because he define Aerith death " something soo awful just happened. When someone is gone.. they're gone."

but same with @faefolk

Idk I'm happy with the end and I trust the creators to do the job right in the final game. Remember this is a complete story and we're only 2/3 through. It's normal to not know everything just not. When you read a book you're trusting the authors with the characters and the story. It's the same thing here.

- I trust devs too her death may have been creepy but she's gone. For me ending IS CREEPY but not soo bad I kinda liked it~

 

[A-to-Z]

Spoiler

(referencing Rebirth ending spoilers)

My theory is we’ll get a flashback highlighting how Aerith (and Zack) actually died while Cloud is regaining his real identity (or maybe afterwards?) since he seems to have repressed both their deaths in the same way, I think what the devs are doing is just moving the emotional part later, since the loss of Zack and Aerith left equivalent damage to Cloud, so why not tell the accurate series of events of their deaths when he’s most vulnerable? How he lost the person who died protecting him, and the person who died because he felt that he couldn’t protect her, respectively.

And I think aerith’s death not being adapted 1 to 1 also alludes to her having an important role in part 3 that she’s obviously going to get, something unique or expanded from the OG, so in a way as an aerith fan I’m still excited for what’s to come because that implies she’s going to have more added scenes after her death. I’m trying to look at it in a more optimistic way, since I personally haven’t felt betrayed by the devs yet, from the spoilers that I’ve seen.

I think the scene with cloud laying aerith in the water did actually happen (albeit offscreen), either cloud just hasn’t taken it in/doesn’t remember it or wasn’t aware of the emotional gravity of that situation, but there’s still a chance we’ll get to see it later. Seems to me that Cloud with the soldier persona developed more violent tendencies and became less empathetic, like jenova is actively warping his perception and as a consequence, making him lose his ability to feel loss, so he’s out of touch with his emotions. Compared to when jessie died, he felt pain when he saw Tifa cry, but now he shows no signs of wanting to comfort her when she seems to be the most broken over Aerith’s death. He’ll realize eventually that he’s not the only one who lost Aerith, the entire party did too.

Cloud at the ending of rebirth reminds me of how Aerith described sephiroth in the ending of remake:
“All these moments and memories, precious and fleeting...they're like rain rolling off his back... And when they're gone, he won't cry...or shout...or anything.”

And ngl maybe it’s just because I’m an aerith stan but her voice and dialogue while she was praying (while cloud was walking up the stairs) still made me cry, the voice acting and the writing was so good in that specific moment

 

[thetriplerhyme]

I know they're going to show their deaths maybe in 3rd installment but as long as they wont do it on LS scene it has nothing to do it on that part ~

 

[JaeKony]

I don't think the plan was to take away from Aerith. I think it's more that in the OG all the focus is on Aerith but the final part has Tifa kind of coming out of left field as a leading heroine and this time they're trying to empathize her equal importance to the narrative. I also honestly think they wanted the build up of Cloud and Tifas relationship to feel much more natural this time too. Because they've shifted the narrative towards Aerith having more internal conflict about Zack, actually added Zack in to remind us he exists constantly and that he loves Aerith - and they've given us a really clear cut narrative build up to both why Tifas faith in Cloud matters so much for him (for the final part when he totally shatters) and how they end up so connected in the LS sequence and under the high wind.
They said prior to the release of the game that they wanted to make things more clearcut this time and I definitely think it includes the LTD and specifically Tifas depiction in general. So much emphasis is put on Aeriths heroine status because of her status as an Ancient - but Tifa is equally important to the narrative, especially in the final act

This is a great take!

Aerith is the heroine of the external plot (Holy and Meteor) and Tifa is the heroine of the internal plot (Cloud’s mental state)

Now that I think about it, I like how the ending of Rebirth reinforces and hints towards the roles both heroines will play in the Part 3:

Spoiler

Aerith telling Cloud “I’ll put everything I got into my prayers, I’ll stop the Meteor”
and Tifa showing how concerned she is for Cloud’s current mental state

 

[starcape91]

The latest take that is gaining some traction with the hardcores is that they did Tifa dirty by putting the kiss behind an optional scene and that Aerith’s GS date is canon because it’s referenced several times afterwards. The individual who started talking about this said they were a “non shipper” and then proceeded to say that Aerith’s date should’ve been mandatory the first playthrough and then you can experience the “fun” ones later.

I agree that Aerith’s date is relevant to what is left in the game by that point. But it doesn’t take a genius to figure out why Tifa and Cloud’s date doesn’t get mentioned afterwards. What’s after the GS date? The Temple of the Ancients and The Forgotten Capitol. Why would Tifa be like “hey Cloud remember we kissed?” That would be tone deaf.